Regarding the debate section and "One strike, punish all"

[BronyPony 575]

I have been seeing this much recently, and it is becoming irritating when users in the debate section bring up a controversy that should be discussed, and users intentionally cause havoc in it because they disagree with the OP's viewpoint presented. This leads to the thread being shut down and no one benefits.

 

I view this as the laziness of the staff, and if the staff is going to hold a debate section they need to adhere to the discussions instead of closing them just so they don't have to bother with dealing with users who intentionally spark flame wars because they want the topic closed just to upset the OP. 

 

For the staff: You became staff. You accepted the responsibility of moderation. You hold the obligation to make the best out of the experience on the forum(at least by Feld0's standards), including sections you decide to host on the site. I keep seeing the excuses of "We already have enough responsibilities as it is." If you can't handle the position, maybe you should reconsider your position and maybe leave. I don't want staff to leave, but if you cannot fulfill your obligations, what is the point of even having you on the staff. We aren't asking you to climb Mount Everest. If a set of users are causing trouble, punish THEM not US.

 

Now a rant on the users: If you disagree with something, don't be a childish person and cry on the forum because you disagree with a perspective. Instead of spreading blatant flame wars, actually discuss the matter and give rational thought.

 

Now back to the staff: I contacted moderators on this matter, but it seems to be unresolved. Apparently, it is a rule that users must provide rational and valid posts that give the discussion merit(meaning it actually contributes to the discussion). Then, I see topics where users make a senseless post that is supposedly related to the topic and then everything gets off topic. Again, if you are going to have a Debate section, at least give it a debate environment. Of course, there will be people who say "there is a debate section to keep the controversial posts outside of the regular forum use." If that's the case, my response is get rid of it. Scrap it. Either completely remove it or change its name to "Unwanted Topics."

 

Also, I see the excuse that "there will always be childish users who bring mayhem to topics." My response? Do your job. Discipline them. Don't just sit by and then close the topic because the topic gets out of hand. Do something about the users who do cause trouble.

 

Message to all: I mostly go into the Debate section because I am always interested in topics that are controversial. I like to see bronies who like MLP to be interested in the topics of the world. It shows we not only like a show, but also respond to many of the issues that exist. However, when I see the garbage that goes on because users don't agree with a particular person, it upsets me. It leaves me baffled that bronies who preach "love and tolerance" don't carry out this slogan. 

 

Also, if you aren't going to take a topic seriously in the Debate section, don't join it. Just leave it alone and let the users debate. I have encountered this in my own topics, where if someone disagrees then they start nonsense to start havoc.

 

Now, before I encounter the posts here(if any) that say "You don't know how it is to be a staff member," I may not be a staff member here but I am on other forum site(s). I know how it feels when the staff is overloaded with many requests, reports, and issues that arise. But that is the burden of being a staff member. If you have personal issues to attend to that will divert you from your ability to moderate the site, please take leave and maybe resign temporary, instead of wearing a fake nameplate as moderator. Bearing the nameplate states that you are actively involved.

 

I have said my piece. I hope to garner response from the users, whether they agree or disagree with me. This is not directed at any one person.

 

Thanks for reading.

[King 5,625]

I view this as the laziness of the staff, and if the staff is going to hold a debate section they need to adhere to the discussions instead of closing them just so they don't have to bother with dealing with users who intentionally spark flame wars because they want the topic closed just to upset the OP.

 

The debate section will always be scrutinized more then any other section on the site due to the nature of the discussion going on there. Its not being lazy, its preventing cases of all out abuse between two or more disagreeing members. This doesn't only effect the people involved, it effects all of us as these arguments start to spill over. This is the reason these threads get shut down if they become too much trouble, because they cause problems that ultimately nobody wants to deal with.

 

Our responsibility as staff members is to try and provide the best experience possible on the forum whilst maintaining the rules, preventing these threads from turning into a "cancer" and spreading fights, hate and whatnot both onto other areas of the site, PM's and areas off site does exactly that.

 

These threads don't simply involve two people fighting, if that was the case then those two members would be dealt with. If it starts to involve numerous members over an extended period of time, the thread becomes more trouble then it is worth. This negatively impacts both the site members and the site staff.

 

 

Also, I see the excuse that "there will always be childish users who bring mayhem to topics." My response? Do your job. Discipline them. Don't just sit by and then close the topic because the topic gets out of hand. Do something about the users who do cause trouble.

 

 

Its easy to judge something you don't see. We don't announce when certain users are being contacted by staff and so how would someone know when we don't do that?

 

If someone is causing an issue, they will be dealt with. If you see someone causing issues, report it. If we see someone causing issues, we deal with it. You don't see exactly what goes on behind scenes as these matters don't concern anyone but the people involved and the moderation team.

 

 

Now, before I encounter the posts here(if any) that say "You don't know how it is to be a staff member," I may not be a staff member here but I am on other forum site(s). I know how it feels when the staff is overloaded with many requests, reports, and issues that arise. But that is the burden of being a staff member. If you have personal issues to attend to that will divert you from your ability to moderate the site, please take leave and maybe resign temporary, instead of wearing a fake nameplate as moderator. Bearing the nameplate states that you are actively involved.

 

 

Experience on other sites does not equate to experience on MLP Forums. As you should be well aware, we are currently lacking in the moderation department which is an issue we're working on. Many of us have been stepping up and filling the shoes of multiple moderators that have left and many of us have done so by choice, not because we "had" to.

 

Its easy for a user to say "do your job" without knowing full well what actually happens behind the scenes. I can guarantee to all of you that the moderation team is working its ass off to do our job. Its not easy, but we do it because we all find a sense of purpose and satisfaction by serving this community as its staff.

 

Back to the debate pit for one final point.

 

The debate pit is a privilege. Many sites would ban discussions that we allow in this section, yet we don't. We decided to create it so we could allow users to discuss some very serious topics and unfortunately, many seem unable to keep things civil and respectful. These people get banned from the debate pit. Its a privilege we can take away if you cause too many issues and we've done so in many a case.

 

This section will be scrutinized.

[BronyPony 575]

The debate section will always be held to a higher standard then any other section on the site due to the nature of the discussion going on there. Its not being lazy, its preventing cases of all out abuse between two or more disagreeing members. This doesn't only effect the people involved, it effects all of us as these arguments start to spill over. This is the reason these threads get shut down if they become too much trouble, because they cause problems that ultimately nobody wants to deal with.

"Preventing cases of all out abuse between two or more disagree members"?

 

That is when you deal with THOSE users. Again, these users should be disciplined and dealt with, not resulting in the topic being closed.

 

 

Our responsibility as staff members is to try and provide the best experience possible on the forum whilst maintaining the rules, preventing these threads from turning into a "cancer" and spreading fights, hate and whatnot both onto other areas of the site, PM's and areas off site does exactly that.

Prevention of threads turning into what they may become does not have the only solution of closure. There are many alternatives that are better, such as disciplining the users who are responsible.

 

 

 

These threads don't simply involve two people fighting, if that was the case then those two members would be dealt with. If it starts to involve numerous members over an extended period of time, the thread becomes more trouble then it is worth. This negatively impacts both the site members and the site staff.

Having multiple users involved in the issue does not resort to complete closure of the subject. That is simply the response of the staff.

 

 

 

Its easy to judge something you don't see. We don't announce when certain users are being contacted by staff and so how would someone know when we don't do that?

 

If someone is causing an issue, they will be dealt with. If you see someone causing issues, report it. If we see someone causing issues, we deal with it. You don't see exactly what goes on behind scenes as these matters don't concern anyone but the people involved and the moderation team.

I already stated that I reported the user and there was evidence that either nothing happened or the topic was closed.

 

 

 

Experience on other sites does not equate to experience on MLP Forums. As you should be well aware, we are currently lacking in the moderation department which is an issue we're working on. Many of us have been stepping up and filling the shoes of multiple moderators that have left and many of us have done so by choice, not because we "had" to.

Whether the experience of other sites reflects the experience on this site does not relate to the issue of how staff deals with discipline when the rules are similar, with punishment being likewise. Whether it was your choice doesn't lessen the stress of responsibility.

 

 

 

Its easy for a user to say "do your job" without knowing full well what actually happens behind the scenes. I can guarantee to all of you that the moderation team is working its ass off to do our job. Its not easy, but we do it because we all find a sense of purpose and satisfaction by serving this community as its staff.

It seems this is asking for sympathy for your argument, when it completely avoids the issue of actually doing your job. I assume the job title requires the ability to moderate with a certain amount of requirements. I am glad you serve the community, but if that's the argument that you will present, a person might as well join and not do anything at all(not saying you do nothing).

 

 

 

The debate pit is a privilege. Many sites would ban discussions that we allow in this section, yet we don't. We decided to create it so we could allow users to discuss some very serious topics and unfortunately, many seem unable to keep things civil and respectful. These people get banned from the debate pit. Its a privilege we can take away if you cause too many issues and we've done so in many a case.

That is a bad argument. For one thing, many sites(whether this is of the discussion anyways) provide this ability. 

 

"It's a privilege"

That's an argument that could be presented on any basis.

 

 

 

This section will be held to a higher standard and will be come down upon harder then other areas due to this.

Having strict policy in a section doesn't justify closure of a topic at all. It simply means you hold each post to a higher standard, which I have been asking for through out my first topic.

Edited October 2, 2014 by BronyPony

[CheeryFox 23,821]

Well I think the staff has been doing a wonderful job and as it stands to reason, I agree with Dawn Rider. And the staff here aren't lazy, why do people keep saying this? =/

[King 5,625]

That is when you deal with THOSE users.

 

Which is what we do. There is a point however, where a thread becomes too much trouble then should be allowed. When it either consistently causes issues or its pure flame bait. All of this is stated within the sections posting guide.

 

It seems this is asking for sympathy for your argument, when it completely avoids the issue of actually doing your job.

 

No, its merely stating how things currently are. Even if we had 30 moderators, none of this would change how the debate pit is being treated. The moderators here do their job, claiming otherwise serves no purpose.

 

Having strict policy in a section doesn't justify closure of a topic at all.

 

Actually, in the case of the debate pit it does. We make the rules, we enforce the rules, we know the rules like the back of our hand. Thats not to say we don't alter these rules should sufficient reason arise that we deem it necessary. User feedback on this is important, but we can't please everyone and some rules will remain unchanged.

I already stated that I reported the user and there was evidence that either nothing happened or the topic was closed

 

If you disagree with a mod action, open a mod dispute. We have that system in place for that exact purpose.

 

For my personal final word on this matter, the debate pit is being run exactly how we feel it should be run. Strictly and to a high standard. This is not done to be lazy, or to limit discussion. This is done in the best interest of the site even if some people disagree with it. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, especially when we have over 25,000 members.

 

The debate pit on MLPF is a privilege designed to give serious topics a chance at discussion. These topics are placed or posted in here because they have the likelihood of containing very strong opinions that more often then not would cause problems between users. Basically, they're shit storms ready to explode as has been proven time and time again.

 

However, we feel that users should get the chance to discuss these matters as some are important to our modern society. Thus, we need to be careful with how we approach it.

 

As such, threads and posts in this section are policed in a stricter manner. Threads will receive a chance to remain open in the case that two members decide to use it as a personal argument ground. Those users will be punished and if deemed necessary, a mod will post in the thread warning people to keep things civil. If these warnings are consistently ignored by multiple users, then the thread has shown itself to be more trouble then its worth and will be locked.

 

We also have other measures either in place such as banning problem members from the debate pit entirely. Another measure involving banning members from certain threads, is something we're working on atm.

 

Either way, this will not change how the debate pit is being treated. It is and always will be held to a higher standard and policed more strictly. If you disagree with this, you are free to discuss these topics elsewhere.

[Treble Bolt 1,122]

There is a very fine line between proper "debating" and outright arguing. It's hard to walk on that line in any online forum due to the diversity of the members that are in any given forum. The moderator's job is to try to keep things civil. Even if a topic in the debate pit does start as good, decent discussion on varying perspectives, it can quickly and easily derail from a single user's response. I can imagine that the debate pit is one of the more stressful sub-forums to moderate here due to its extreme subjectively controversial nature. A topic should not be shut down due to a moderators personal standings, which is understandable if that was the problem. However that is not the problem here. Making sure that a topic does not become a disrespectful battleground of stubborn ideals is why moderators shut down topics. It is not lazy. How can one post put everything back into perspective when both sides are probably angry with one another. It is much easier to make everyone angry in the first place than it is to calm everyone down and bring actual discussion back to the table after the fact. Thus, that is why the moderators do what they do. They are not there to be mediators in hot button topics that in a generalized sense, push everyone's buttons! Such controversial topics rarely allow for proper discussion within the middle ground, or grey area of that topic. Most people lean heavily on one side or another. To say that the moderators should keep to the middle and make sure a fight doesn't break out is not fair to the moderators. They are not all philosophical majors, nor are they psychiatrists (trying to make everyone get along). They are there to keep things age appropriate, allow for proper discussion, and stop any discussion that gets out of hand and is just a bunch of arguing. Nothing good comes of arguing, but allowing the discussion to start over fresh (hoping that lightning doesn't strike twice) is the simplest and wisest thing they could do.

[Andaasonsan 3,205]

I had another site I posted on which had a debate pit style sub forum. It was a cool place with some people I liked talking too. It also created all kinds of headaches for the Admins.

 

There was always some group claiming mod favoritism and generally a lot of drama and bullshit. The site I was on ended up going in the opposite direction of this site. Totally hands off unless something way out of line happened there.

 

It made me upset that my chill little hangout spot was being turned to the wolves. But ,the Admin's explained their reasoning, and I have to admit it made sense:

 

That the sub-forum was basically a quarantine zone. It's a place where they sent things they didn't want causing drama in the rest of the forums. The focus of the site had nothing to do with debate. The sub-forum was basically an afterthought and wasting moderator time there was not worth the resources.

 

I ended up leaving, because it was just not something I was interested in participating in. I had no ill will because I understood why things worked out like they did though.

 

So I guess my ultimate point is this: This is a site about ponies. It's mission statement does not include having intense debates on abortion or the existence of God or what have you. This sub-forum is an afterthought, and for good reason. Expecting the mods to spend a bunch of time worrying about what goes down there is really unrealistic and unfair to the rest of the forums that also need moderators and where actual pony related discussion is going down.

[Marcato 2,143]

Posts like this are a breath of fresh air. It's becoming more and more uncommon that the staff are challenged to think of something, and that usually promotes healthy growth in the forum and community.

 

Usually.

 

While I can understand the reasoning from which you're complaining, there is one thing I'd like to address. I am not here to agree or disagree with your viewpoints on the staff, or the users, as I simply have not been active enough, but this part of your post caught my attention and I believe requires a response that may or may not have already been stated.

 

Now, before I encounter the posts here(if any) that say "You don't know how it is to be a staff member," I may not be a staff member here but I am on other forum site(s). I know how it feels when the staff is overloaded with many requests, reports, and issues that arise. But that is the burden of being a staff member. If you have personal issues to attend to that will divert you from your ability to moderate the site, please take leave and maybe resign temporary, instead of wearing a fake nameplate as moderator. Bearing the nameplate states that you are actively involved.

 

Every community is different. From forums, to gaming server networks, to chatboards. Before you say that "I'm a moderator on a different forum and therefore know the struggles and issues," take a look at this community. In fact, take a look at this network. Compare it to the one in which you are a staff member. 

 

Now there's a lot that can be deemed different. The most significant ones though I'm going to name:

• What fandom is this forum of yours for? Bronies are an infamously over-dramatic fandom, that, while yes there are also many incredibly reasonable people in it, is a bloated fandom with a surprisingly large share of not-so-reasonable people and emotional teenagers like myself.
• How large is this forum you are on? The number of users vastly affects the kind of community that is being run. It affects the rules, it affects the staff, and of course, affects the people you'll be dealing with. I was a staff member here, and let me tell you dealing with debates and arguments is the absolute worst among this community, and this community can already be extremely chaotic and difficult to handle. (Especially since it's grown a good 5,000 users since I resigned.)
• By what rules and system is your forum staffed? This is everything. I needn't say much about this as I think it's pretty straight forward.

Those are the largest things I wanted to point out, as I think you're missing a very large part and making an inaccurate statement claiming that you know what it's like.

 

Though yes, you have presented some good points that I hope will be given some thought by the staff, namely in regards to the debate pit and its purpose, you must realize that the staff are, in fact, volunteers. I'll give you credit, you're pretty genre-savvy on the whole "what the staff does and should do on here" discussion, as it's one I've seen and discussed often, and very rarely do people open their argument acknowledging counter arguments such as "We already have enough responsibilities as it is."

 

That doesn't exempt you from that little piece of info. It doesn't stop being true nor does it become any less of a problem. You've not debunked the argument, it's still a true and unfortunate reality.

 

This is why, at least while I was here, the staff were actually assigned places they should focus most of their attention on. I'll admit though, this wasn't exactly very effective back then because all moderators really had equal power and just focused on dealing with reports. Debate pit only popped up sometimes, and last I checked there was no moderator assigned to the debate pit specifically. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, mods.) 

 

---

 

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, attempting to relate with the staff is really hard to do when you're talking as though you're disregarding they're problems and struggles and saying they should suck it up and do their job. Though that may not be what you intended to say that is definitely what it sounds like to me as an ex-mod after reading your post. 

[Jeric 46,851]

Staff Organization Status

 

I posted that link above as it is applicable to the question of the Moderation Team being overworked and the plan going forward for staff organization. Aquila has mentioned future announcements will be forthcoming. 

 

 

I view this as the laziness of the staff, and if the staff is going to hold a debate section they need to adhere to the discussions instead of closing them just so they don't have to bother with dealing with users who intentionally spark flame wars because they want the topic closed just to upset the OP. 

 

Several moderators on this board are actively logged in and functionally working more than 40 (some 70+) hours per week. I find it difficult to associate the word lazy with that work ethic. The amount of effort that is put into Moderation and Administration at MLP Forums eclipses any of the boards I have founded or been staff on. I have used the term opportunity cost far more on this board than I do in my employment, but here it is again. You have to account for the time investment of some decisions and actions to be efficient.

 

If one member is specifically harassing another member in the manner you are speaking of, then there is a process involved in user to user disputes. I agree that no one should feel that their contributions are always threatened by an opposing view. The Moderation and Admin team cannot investigate rhetoric and and anecdotal information though, they need details. If anyone ever notices a personal vendetta like that impacting the discourse and discussion in ANY forum, please report it. There are more than a handful of great discussions that were ended through moderation do to the inability of multiple users to react appropriately to each other. 

 

 

as I simply have not been active enough

 

I wish you would remedy this ... I loved reading your older posts.