Why are Celestia and Luna considered "Gods"?

[Kel_Grym 1,917]

 

Now let me tell you why:

 

I can completely understand why any rational being would question the divinity of Luna. That's a question that makes sense, as opposed to the opposite and completely ludicrous question, "Is Celestia divine?"

 

Don't be silly.

 

It is SELF EVIDENT that Celestia is indeed divine. Everything about her is perfect including, but not limited to:

 

• Her color scheme
• Her hieght
• Her diet
• Her voice
• The way she blinks her eye
• The way she walks
• The way she trots
• The way she trips and checks to see if anyone was looking then warps the fabric of time and prevents herself from tripping rendering this example irrelevant.
• Her fine china collection

Really, I could go on. All day if I had to...I kinda want to.

 

But I digress.

 

In an effort to be "open-minded" I gave your arguments some merit and after flawlessly eviscerating them in a cold, logical, and systematic fashion, I posit -no- Reveal a great mystery of Her Holiness which has been withheld from you poor mortals until this appointed time.

 

Really, you should feel very lucky...

 

 

 

~Faust, Creator; show has done nothing to counter this statement since then so it still reigns true

 

Wrong.

 

For you see, Faust did not predate Celestia...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Celestia predated Faust!

 

 

Ikr?

[Castle Bleck 19,376]

 

Arceus created the universe and bequeathed it's maintenance to lesser deities in the form of legendary Pokemon. Mew, the biological progenitor of all Pokemon, Dialga the Keeper of Time, Palkia the warden of space and so on and so forth.

 

Yet a human nearly drowned him in liquid silver at the end of his debut movie, so he's not invulnerable.

Edited April 17, 2015 by A.V.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Can't believe the number of times the 'Celestia/Luna Gods' topic has come up.

It's been said in an interview or two and mentioned in various other places, fan conceptions be damned.

 

~Faust, Creator; show has done nothing to counter this statement since then so it still reigns true. Source.

Being flowy-mane alicorns (lineage, wisdom, pick your explanation), they have immense magical prowess, but are not gods.

 

Also, are you guys seriously bringing irl religion talk into a Show Discussion topic?

This is a rhetorical question. Yes you are, and no I shan't stand this.

oh yeah. I forgot all about that

way to go, Faust hope that's reason enough to put an end to the "they are gods" conviction

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Yet a human nearly drowned him in liquid silver at the end of his debut movie, so he's not invulnerable.

 

No but as I've been trying to spell out, not all deities in mythology are considered such. The gods of the Nile could die, the Aesir knew how they were going to die, even the Olympians were not invincible even if they couldn't truly be killed.

 

oh yeah. I forgot all about that

way to go, Faust hope that's reason enough to put an end to the "they are gods" conviction

 

There a reason you've been ignoring my posts?

 

Authorial intent only extended to that particular book and Faust herself clearly was drawing on some mythology with the raising of the sun and moon, a task mythologically attributed to the Powers that Be. So even if they will never be confirmed as such either way, the Princesses undoubtably have traits like that of classical deities.

 

So no, it's not putting an end to my conviction.

 

@@~Chaotic Discord~,

 

Dude no need to get so defensive about it, we're having a hypothetical discussion here.

 

 

Also, are you guys seriously bringing irl religion talk into a Show Discussion topic? This is a rhetorical question. Yes you are, and no I shan't stand this.

 

Then why did you feel the need to go on a tirade and then leave? That's a hit and run argument. 

Edited April 17, 2015 by Steel Accord

[NavelColt 22,881]

@@~Chaotic Discord~,

 

Dude no need to get so defensive about it, we're having a hypothetical discussion here.

 

 

Then why did you feel the need to go on a tirade and then leave? That's a hit and run argument.

 

Ironically enough, you're the one overreacting here, I wasn't mad or butthurt or any other adjective synonym you can think of. My post was mostly blunt humor, so I could use that gif and facepa at what's been going on in this topic all at the same time. Trust me, your response right there is three times as uptight as I was in mine.

 

Did you have a response to my actual content, or was that all you had in mind?

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Ironically enough, you're the one overreacting here, I wasn't mad or butthurt or any other adjective synonym you can think of. My post was mostly blunt humor, so I could use that gif. Trust me, your response right there is three times as uptight as I was in mine.

 

Well as long as no offense was meant nor taken, I'm fine with being humorless in some of my posts. You are not the first to make that statement of me.

 

If I may ask just for confirmation, was any of that meant to be passive aggressive? If it was, I'm sorry to have instilled such a response. If not, then I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

[NavelColt 22,881]

Well as long as no offense was meant nor taken, I'm fine with being humorless in some of my posts. You are not the first to make that statement of me.

 

If I may ask just for confirmation, was any of that meant to be passive aggressive? If it was, I'm sorry to have instilled such a response. If not, then I'm sorry for misunderstanding.

Edited my post~

 

It was, but again, aimed at no one in particular and with a goal to make fun of the fact that this topic has not only been discussed to death already, but that OP brought cancerous talks of IRL religious beliefs into this thread to make things even worse. x) As most people avoid discussing religion on the internet, and certainly don't want to find it in Show Discussion.

 

But yeah, back on topic, Lauren made it canon that the Sisters are not gods when she answers questions like the one I made, and since the show hasn't changed that, it still holds water.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

It was, but again, aimed at no one in particular and with a goal to make fun of the fact that this topic has not only been discussed to death already, but that OP brought cancerous talks of IRL religious beliefs into this thread to make things even worse. x) As most people avoid discussing religion on the internet, and certainly don't want to find it in Show Discussion.

 

Well I have had very productive talks on the subject of religion in places on this Forum and pretty much only on this forum as far as the internet is concerned. We're bronies, we extend certain basic and beyond courtesies to one another that others on the internet seem to forget. 

 

I agree though in that modern religions are not the right frame of mind with which to classify Luna or Celestia.

 

 

 

But yeah, back on topic, Lauren made it canon that the Sisters are not gods when she answers questions like the one I made, and since the show hasn't changed that, it still holds water.

 

Yet they are long lived, if not immortal, and control aspects of nature. These are both qualities that have been associated with the gods in many ancient faiths. Even if mortals could do what the gods could do (smithing, knitting, or raising the sun and moon as is Equestria's case) the gods were better at it than mortals.

 

I'm not saying Lauren is wrong, just that a case can be made for interpretation in the absence of her specific declaration, because even if they aren't deities, Celestia and Luna share many aspects of the gods of classical mythology.

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

I feel it falls under the whole Christian commandment of not worshiping false gods/ idols.

I'm with you there. I would be considerably less comfortable watching the show if they were canonized as deities, or explicitly worshiped.

 

Personally, though, I tend to think they're simply royalty, and have been around longer than any of the citizens of Equestria. So while they're not gods, and I don't think the ponies regard them as such, they are certainly wise and powerful and well to be respected.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I'm with you there. I would be considerably less comfortable watching the show if they were canonized as deities, or explicitly worshiped.

 

Personally, though, I tend to think they're simply royalty, and have been around longer than any of the citizens of Equestria. So while they're not gods, and I don't think the ponies regard them as such, they are certainly wise and powerful and well to be respected.

 

Once again, I don't think the modern perception of what we consider a deity is the proper mindset when asking this question. If we compare Celestia and Luna to God the Father, yeah, no comparison.

 

If we compare them to Apollo, Ra, Artemis, or Morpheus however, there definitely are some similarities.

[Henny Penny Benny 936]

Once again, I don't think the modern perception of what we consider a deity is the proper mindset when asking this question. If we compare Celestia and Luna to God the Father, yeah, no comparison.

 

If we compare them to Apollo, Ra, Artemis, or Morpheus however, there definitely are some similarities.

Indeed, if we compare their abilities to various mythical "gods," some similarities could be drawn. But I tend to think that divinity is not made in traits or abilities, but rather that the traits and abilities result from divinity. At least, mythologically speaking. Although I suppose I could say the same about God: it's not as though He's divine because He's all-powerful, rather that He is all-powerful because He is divine.

 

By which reasoning, I could also go on to challenge the alleged divinity of mythological gods, since in general, they aren't really all-powerful; with a great deal of technological advancement, many of their abilities could be replicated by humans. So they'd not really be divine, simply extraordinary creatures. Which is really a more accurate description of how they're portrayed anyway. But of course, that's all based on the presupposition that divinity doesn't result from ability but rather grants it, so to speak. And at this point I'm just rambling, so I'm'a stop now.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Henny Penny Benny

[NavelColt 22,881]

Well I have had very productive talks on the subject of religion in places on this Forum and pretty much only on this forum as far as the internet is concerned. We're bronies, we extend certain basic and beyond courtesies to one another that others on the internet seem to forget. 

 

Yet they are long lived, if not immortal, and control aspects of nature. These are both qualities that have been associated with the gods in many ancient faiths. Even if mortals could do what the gods could do (smithing, knitting, or raising the sun and moon as is Equestria's case) the gods were better at it than mortals.

 

I'm not saying Lauren is wrong, just that a case can be made for interpretation in the absence of her specific declaration, because even if they aren't deities, Celestia and Luna share many aspects of the gods of classical mythology.

 

You're being a bit optimistic and generalizing the fanbase. x) I'm glad you've had productive talks on this site, but that does not mean for a second that the entire fandom, nor even most of the individuals on this site would always behave the same way. Brony or not, there's a reason politics and religion are considered taboo for discussion most of the time in environments that don't focus on those topics. Likewise, the fanbase is absolutely full of people who couldn't give two shits less about being courteous to others. Just like every fandom, there are nice people, and there are assholes. Especially as this fandom has gotten bigger. Honestly asides from the creative and generous aspects, we're not that different from any other fandom when it comes to trends and ratios of people.

 

I just find it weird to try and interpret something contrary to what the creator of the entire lore thinks.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

You're being a bit optimistic and generalizing the fanbase. x) I'm glad you've had productive talks on this site, but that does not mean for a second that the entire fandom, nor even most of the individuals on this site would always behave the same way. Brony or not, there's a reason politics and religion are considered taboo for discussion most of the time in environments that don't focus on those topics. Likewise, the fanbase is absolutely full of people who couldn't give two shits less about being courteous to others. Just like every fandom, there are nice people, and there are assholes. Especially as this fandom has gotten bigger. Honestly asides from the creative aspects, we're not that different from any other fandom.

 

I'm sorry for your experience but I must disagree. My experience directly contradicts yours. Overall, I have talked with more people that are loving, tolerant, open minded, and friendly here and other brony sites than anywhere else on the web. It's not a hundred percent but the good staggeringly outweighs the bad as far as my interactions have been.

 

Yeah call me an optimist, an idealist even. I take those titles with pride and self identify as both.

 

 

I just find it weird to try and interpret something contrary to what the creator of the entire lore thinks.

 

I just said how I'm not contradicting her. My words were:

 

 

 

I'm not saying Lauren is wrong, just that a case can be made for interpretation in the absence of her specific declaration, because even if they aren't deities, Celestia and Luna share many aspects of the gods of classical mythology.

Edited April 17, 2015 by Steel Accord

[NavelColt 22,881]

I'm sorry for your experience but I must disagree. My experience directly contradicts yours. Overall, I have talked with more people that are loving, tolerant, open minded, and friendly here and other brony sites than anywhere else on the web. It's not a hundred percent but the good staggeringly outweighs the bad as far as my interactions have been.

 

Yeah call me an optimist, an idealist even. I take those titles with pride and self identify as both.

 

I just said how I'm not contradicting her. My words were:

 

Your experience does not 'directly contradict' mine. I've had plenty of good experiences. :3 I was just trying to even out the field since you completely praised things in your post without including the fact that the fandom is not at all perfect and is full of problems, as well.

 

Whatever you say, bro. x3

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Your experience does not 'directly contradict' mine. I've had plenty of good experiences. :3 I was just trying to even out the field since you completely praised things in your post without including the fact that the fandom is not at all perfect and is full of problems, as well.

 

Whatever you say, bro. x3

 

I didn't mean it as an attack just that if your experience has been chiefly negative or even slightly negative, and mine has been overwhelmingly positive, by it's nature, that's a contradiction.

 

I know we're not perfect, but I will gladly praise and champion this fandom as something that changed my and many people's lives for the better because I've seen it and it experienced it.

 

Again I must ask, are you being passive aggressive? That's not an accusation, just confirmation.

[Honsou 399]

Quite frankly, it makes me uncomfortable, as I don't feel it right seeing them as such, personally. I feel it falls under the whole Christian commandment of not worshiping false gods/ idols.

 

But that aside, I also believe that they just ARE NOT gods, nor do they deserve to be called such. While I am aware that on 2 occasion, in MLP, 2 ponies use Celestia's name as replacement for "God" (which also rubbed me the wrong way), in the context of "As Celestia as my witness _" yadda yadda yadda. Which was, in fact, a quote parodied from "Little House on the Prairie", so I can give that some leeway, since parodies/ lines from other media is something G4 has done from the start.

 

Outside of that, though, there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to claim Celestia and Luna as Gods. Yes, they may be long lived, but they haven't been around from the very beginning. The journal of the Two Sisters confirms that. Many episodes show that they also aren't infallible, and can fall and fail to villains. (Chrysalis, Nightmare Moon) Nor are they immortal, and no form of pony media we've been given confirms their immortality. In fact, the Journal of the Two Sisters, Celestia states that Alicorns simply age at a different rate than other ponies. The ONLY time the subject of immortality is EVER brought up in MLP, is in the "Daring Do and the Eternal Flower" book, by G.M. Berrow, which gives detail about a rare to find flower that- when consumed- bestows immortality to the one who ate it.

No fear sir, your religious beliefs can be left alone.

 

Celestia and Luna are not considered Gods. They are not immortal, Omniscient, and Omnipotent. They are simply Alicorns. Alicorns live a long time, and contain massive amounts of magical reserves. Eventually Celestia and Luna will pass. With the Pony's saying with Celestia as my witness is basically like swearing an oath to the king. Like back in the olden days people would swear an oath on the king, the ponies are swearing an oath to their ruler, Celestia. 

[The Awesome One 1,315]

Oh, I don't know....maybe it's because they can control the Sun and the Moon. They basically are Demi-Gods but the citizens of Equestria see them just as princesses.

[Prince Firemane 309]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the alleged deity inspiration for Luna and Celestia were a bit more abstract than drawing parallels to the Christian God or other mainstream deities. In fact, I think they have the most similarity to Skinfaxi and Hrímfaxi of Norse mythology. Now, Norse mythology is notoriously muddled, so I might have some of this wrong. If I remember correctly, Hrímfaxi helped to pull the chariot of the Moon across the sky each night, and from his flowing mane came dew that would dust the valleys below. Conversely, Skinfaxi helped to pull the Sun across the sky each day and his flowing mane shined its light in all directions. Aside from the obvious gender swap, it seems like a rather shocking parallel in mind for Luna and Celestia to me.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the alleged deity inspiration for Luna and Celestia were a bit more abstract than drawing parallels to the Christian God or other mainstream deities. In fact, I think they have the most similarity to Skinfaxi and Hrímfaxi of Norse mythology. Now, Norse mythology is notoriously muddled, so I might have some of this wrong. If I remember correctly, Hrímfaxi helped to pull the chariot of the Moon across the sky each night, and from his flowing mane came dew that would dust the valleys below. Conversely, Skinfaxi helped to pull the Sun across the sky each day and his flowing mane shined its light in all directions. Aside from the obvious gender swap, it seems like a rather shocking parallel in mind for Luna and Celestia to me.

 

Just as one who is well versed in Norse mythology, that sounds accurate to me and I agree, Celestia and Luna share many parallels with classical gods of the elements or gods of the physical world.

[Discordian 6,015]

Oh, I don't know....maybe it's because they can control the Sun and the Moon. They basically are Demi-Gods but the citizens of Equestria see them just as princesses.

You know that brings up an interesting dynamic. Where we're talking about beings beyond the ken of man the ponies probably don't do things exactly the same way because of the known, confirmed and common use of magic in their world.

 

Every single person of royalty we've met in the series has been some being of seemingly supernatural power that goes far beyond that of the average pony. Is their title granted because of their power or are they merely giving themselves the title? They still take a leadership role in the world one way or another.

 

So maybe in their world where powers like that are far higher than regular ponies but it is still a provable science the typical ceiling needed to be considered a deity is much higher and beings that humans would consider god by us are merely royalty by ponies.

 

So instead of:

 

God

.

.

.

.

Humans

 

we have:

 

God (or whatever deigns to give the ponies cutie marks and how magic works in the first place)

.

.

.

.

Royalty

.

.

Ponies

 

Those spaces are intentionally drawn that way for comparibility.

 

I may have strayed from my original point a bit but I think it got across anyway.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

You know that brings up an interesting dynamic. Where we're talking about beings beyond the ken of man the ponnies probably don't do things exactly the same way because of the known, confirmed and common use of magic in their world.

 

Every single person of royalty we've met in the series has been some being of seemingly supernatural power that goes far beyond that of the average pony. Is their title granted because of their power or are they merely giving themselves the title? They still take a leadership role in the world one way or another.

 

So maybe in their world where powers like that are far higher than regular ponies but it are still a provable science the typical ceiling needed to be considered a deity is much higher and beings that humans would consider god by us are merely royalty by ponies.

 

So instead of:

 

God

.

.

.

.

Humans

 

we have:

 

God (or whatever deigns to give the ponies cutie marks and how magic works in the first place)

.

.

.

.

Royalty

.

.

Ponies

 

Those spaces are intentionally drawn that way for comparibility.

 

I may have strayed from my original point a bit but I think it got across anyway.

 

That's actually a fairly good point.

 

The excellent fanfic It's a Dangerous Business Going out your Door deposits that lands beyond Equestria have a similar setup, with leaders like the Buffalo "shaman-kings" or the mystical prophetess of the deer people, etc.

 

Meanwhile even they are subservient to something far greater, more what we would abstractly define as a true God or divinity.

Edited April 18, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Xeltor23 704]

I don't think Luna and Celestia can be considered gods, being able to move the Sun and the Moon doesn't make them so, and just like many said before, there was a group of unicorns who were doing so before them. Moving the sun, for exemple, isn't equal to be able to turn into something of 6 thousands to millions of °C or something. They're just more powerful than a group composed of unicorns and Star Swirl The Bearded which I think, even if he's less powerful, was a lot more skilled than both of the princesses

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I don't think Luna and Celestia can be considered gods, being able to move the Sun and the Moon doesn't make them so, and just like many said before, there was a group of unicorns who were doing so before them. Moving the sun, for exemple, isn't equal to be able to turn into something of 6 thousands to millions of °C or something. They're just more powerful than a group composed of unicorns and Star Swirl The Bearded which I think, even if he's less powerful, was a lot more skilled than both of the princesses

 

Your opinion and interpretation is your own of course, however I would point out that being able to do what mortals can but solo and all around better is something that was attributed to many an ancient deity.

[Xeltor23 704]

Sure, but a group of around 10 unicorns (it's a group, not an army) is as powerful as someone considered as a god? I agree that they are skilled, but not to THAT point. Gods are supposed to be of a different level than mere mortals, they're also supposed to be unique in their skills. I consider Celestia and Luna protectors rather than gods

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Something that also gods have been attributed as. The Aesir could all be killed and could age without their golden apples, yet all of them to a man (and woman) were some kind of guardian of Midgard as well as their own realm.

 

Not saying you're wrong just that how god-like the Princesses are depends on what mythology and theological context you're drawing from when looking at them.