One-sided or complex characters? Does too much characterization go over heads?

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Ok, I've seen many praise this generation of My Little Pony for being the one that gives its ponies more fleshed out characters, unlike Gen 3, by comparison of many. (though there was characterization in Gen 1/ MLP Tales, but that's for a different topic) The ponies of G4 are relateable and are given copius amounts of characterization, so why, then, does it seem like many fans dislike characters that have TOO much character?

 

Take for instance, Sombra. Pretty much all of the time, from what I've seen, when people bring up Sombra, there's this really negative stigma that he's boring, too bland, too newb OC-like, not enough dialogue, ect ect. But is this really true? I think that the staff created him to have plenty of character; and just about made him the most intimidating G4 villain to date.

 

King Sombra WAS NOT a villain who lacked strategy. He was the epitome of strategic villains in MLP. His mere shadow instills fear in an entire empire. He was a CONSTANT threat looming over the empire. This is why everyone's so anxious the entire time they're searching for the Crystal Heart. He doesn't even have to physically be there. Just mentioning his name, just his shadow makes ponies pee themselves. He's strategic and cunning, and it shows, because he HID away the Crystal heart, which was required to defeat him. He erased all the Crystal Ponies' knowledge of it ever having existed at all. The last page of the Crystal Empire History book that Twilight finds is also torn out. The trap he laid at the bottom of the staircase in his castle throne room shows ponies an illusion of their greatest fear- meaning that if Spike hadn't gone with Twilight, she would've been frozen by Sombra's illusion, and Sombra would've won. This is on top of the fact that Sombra put the Crystal heart in his castle, because he was "the dreaded", meaning the crystal ponies would be too terrified of him to even TRY looking for it. Then he HID the entrance to the chamber so that the only way to open it was to be able to USE his dark magic. Dark magic that- presumably- a truly incorruptable hero would be unable or unwilling to use. And finally, stepping on the platform allows Sombra to trigger a spell beginning to spread his dark crystals inside the castle, and trapping WHOEVER MANAGED TO GET THAT FAR, at the top of the tower, unable to use the Heart. Not to mention the anti-teleport spell he cast on the trap, so that even a powerful magician wouldn't be able to leave all that easily. Sombra comes within a hair's breadth of succeeding without barely even having to lift a hoof. If that's not expert cunning, foresight, and strategy, I seriously don't know what people are expecting out of an MLP villain's (or characters in general). Because that is some serious characterization, if you ask me.

 

And then there's Spike, who many people seem to portray as an “inconsistent” character. That the writers simply don't know how to write Spike, or what to do with him./ But is that really the case, or is he- like Sombra- bursting at the seams with consistent, good, and even complex characterization?

 

He's a main character who offers comic relief and humor, but in a rather unique way that nopony else in the show has. A mixure of Twilight's sarcastic type of humor and Pinkie's slapstick, but with his own humor of just laughing at the side at how everything is going wrong for everyone else. This makes him relateable to us, since we're the audience, and Spike is viewing the events that unfold in a similar way that WE are. While he doesn't do well in episodes that make him the main character, he does exceptionally well in episodes where he's a supporting character. But even when he's thrown into episodes where he's not a main character, he's still a very deep one (I'm sure we all remember the scene with Spike facing his worst fears in Sombra's dark magic mirror).

 

His relationship with Twilight (her being his mother, sister, employee, advisor, and closest friend) is also complex. As is his own self-image of himself, thinking he's a comic relief, but on more than one occasion, proving that he's useful for things when his friends really need him; along with the complexities of his dragon lineage, nature vs nurture, and who he is and what he's meant to be and be seen by others, in pony live. He's gotta be a wreck on the inside, and what's worse is nopony's looking into that, because they don't think that someone his age is going through with any of that. Hell, his closest friends still see him as a baby dragon, newly hatched)

 

Spike has also been showed as mature; being able to overcome his greed and learn from his mistakes better than the mane 6 themselves have, about their own faults. (lest we forget, Twilight basically mind controls all of Ponyville to fight over a doll, just so SHE can have something to write to the Princess about, and learn the lesson of not worrying so much, Rainbow Dash destroying an entire weather factory and putting not only Cloudsdale but Ponyville in danger, for her to learn a lesson of letting go of the things she loves, Apple Jack, who over-propelled pegasus, practically poisoned plenty of ponies, and terrorized bushels of brand new bouncing baby bunnies for her to learn her lesson of letting go of her stubborn pride. Whereas all it takes for Spike is a rubberband ball of animals to learn not to put himself first, in “Just for Sidekicks”. Even in “Spike at your Service”, it's the mane 6 who draw in a giant timberwolf (and abandon AJ in the process) leaving Spike to save the day on his own.

 

This proves that the ponies get into far more trouble than Spike does, and that's to be expected, because it's Spike who learns from the failure of others (since he's the one writing the letters at the end of the day, learning alongside them) Spike is most helpful when he's not indebted to help, and trips up when he IS (due to his forgetting that ponies appreciate his help as a courtesy, rather than an obligation), mature, but yet still has a childlike/ naive nature (because he is still a kid, after all), playful, comedic, has emotional depth still left to be explored, insecure when he feels like he's not needed, and much, MUCH more. And yet in spite of all this, people tend to see poor Spike as flawed in character or inconsistent, when in actuality there's multiple sides to his character than make him that much more interesting.

 

And then there's Cadance.....who I'd go deeper into, if not for already making this quite the lengthy subject..so I'll leave some homework for y'all to look into yourselves, with her.

 

So what about you guys? What are your thoughts on characters that you might've seen be called “inconsistent” or uninteresting due to supposed lack of characterization? Are these claims false or justified? Are Sombra and Spike complex enough to be decent characters? Can you think of any other characters that get the same kind of overlook from fans?

Edited May 13, 2015 by Nightmare Muffin

[Tom Snyder 4,112]

He erased all the Crystal Ponies' knowledge of it ever having existed at all.

This statement here, i have to bring up my argument. I don't think he erased their memory, its more that he threatened them if they even thought about it; he hates seeing them happy. So he has them working as slaves in the mine and they just give up on it. All that happiness they once knew is gone from their lives and it shows how much they were oppressed.

 

But yes, he could have made them forget, but there was no evidence to support it. So really, they never forgot; it was just that them being treated like this that caused them to. There's no known spell to make somepony forget, so the only thing he could do is make them fear him so much that the memory just fades with it.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Candy Star

[The Awesome One 1,315]

Sombra was a pretty good villain. I think the real problem people have with him is how quickly he came and went and how he is just too much of the general 'evil' type. 

 

But I have to ask, what else do you want from a villain?

[pony.colin 156]

Only brief skimming.

 

Sombra isn't a bad villain, looking back on it.  The only valid criticisms I think that could be made would be that the audience didn't get a feel of intimacy for this antagonist character since the build-up was relatively good and the climax, well shot him out completely and with little climax.  Again, I think the fact that he spoke so few lines of dialogue during his one and only appearance, suggests that there was no build-up of intimacy with the personality of Sombra (based on a dialogue perspective).  One has to re-watch the episode to actually understand that Sombra was a strategical character, and that he had installed fail-safe traps to ensure that his return would be safe and secure (even though they failed).  He has good character build-up into being understood as a ruthless tyrant, but then we don't get a feel of dialogue intimacy from him.   The show does do a good job of building up Sombra as a villain that we, the audience, are interested in seeing more of.  And then the show does one quick fell swoop of killing him off in less than three minutes of him fully materializing in his unicorn form.   What, that's it?  You built up this villian all the way through the episode, you made him interesting, a planner, ruthless, but then you kill him off  THAT quickly?!!  Come on, we had expectations of this character!  We were hoping for a bigger battle at least.   The added insult to injury is that Sombra barely spoke.  Every other major villain this series has featured had enough dialogue to establish a bit intimacy and insight into their personality.  But Sombra doesn't get this, he gets slapped off with barely any dialogue and that's why he gets put around as being the butt-end of a joke for being a 'forgettable' villain because barely anyone remembers he spoke any dialogue and his defeat seemed a bit easy (he spoke like 1 or 2 lines).  You know, we were expecting a lot more of a fight because he was a good villain, and so his defeat seems so contrived.  But granted, you learn about the Crystal Heart and its purpose, though practically at the last second of the first part 1. Which is supposed to be the build up for part 2, so it's not entirely like a bridge fell on top of him in the last five minutes, you were aware this was coming.
 Just that expectations were built, and then they fell a bit too fast for most people I figure.  That's a pacing issue really when you must cram things into a 44 minute timeframe.

 

 

 

I'll get to Spike later (can't remember what were some of the major criticisms that were brought up with episodes and would require rewatching again).  Think the most common thing that is often criticized about him is mainly inconsistent character (which lends itself to being the butt-end of jokes too).

 

But,

 

 

 

And then there's Spike, who many people seem to portray as an “inconsistent” character. That the writers simply don't know how to write Spike, or what to do with him.

 

 

 

While he doesn't do well in episodes that make him the main character,

 

Well, there's your answer right there.  He doesn't get written well whenever he is set up to be the main character for an episode.  That's where probably most of the criticism stems from, why he's considered 'inconsistent' in the first place.  (Not that it happens all the time, but it seems to happen all too often with him). 

Edited May 13, 2015 by pony.colin

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Only brief skimming.

 

Sombra isn't a bad villain, looking back on it.  The only valid criticisms I think that could be made would be that the audience didn't get a feel of intimacy for this antagonist character since the build-up was relatively good and the climax, well shot him out completely and with little climax.  Again, I think the fact that he spoke so few lines of dialogue during his one and only appearance, suggests that there was no build-up of intimacy with the personality of Sombra (based on a dialogue perspective).  One has to re-watch the episode to actually understand that Sombra was a strategical character, and that he had installed fail-safe traps to ensure that his return would be safe and secure (even though they failed).  He has good character build-up into being understood as a ruthless tyrant, but then we don't get a feel of dialogue intimacy from him.   The show does do a good job of building up Sombra as a villain that we, the audience, are interested in seeing more of.  And then the show does one quick fell swoop of killing him off in less than three minutes of him fully materializing in his unicorn form.   What, that's it?  You built up this villian all the way through the episode, you made him interesting, a planner, ruthless, but then you kill him off  THAT quickly?!!  Come on, we had expectations of this character!  We were hoping for a bigger battle at least.   The added insult to injury is that Sombra barely spoke.  Every other major villain this series has featured had enough dialogue to establish a bit intimacy and insight into their personality.  But Sombra doesn't get this, he gets slapped off with barely any dialogue and that's why he gets put around as being the butt-end of a joke for being a 'forgettable' villain because barely anyone remembers he spoke any dialogue and his defeat seemed a bit easy (he spoke like 1 or 2 lines).  You know, we were expecting a lot more of a fight because he was a good villain, and so his defeat seems so contrived.  But granted, you learn about the Crystal Heart and its purpose, though practically at the last second of the first part 1. Which is supposed to be the build up for part 2, so it's not entirely like a bridge fell on top of him in the last five minutes, you were aware this was coming.

 Just that expectations were built, and then they fell a bit too fast for most people I figure.  That's a pacing issue really when you must cram things into a 44 minute timeframe.

 

 

 

I'll get to Spike later (can't remember what were some of the major criticisms that were brought up with episodes and would require rewatching again).  Think the most common thing that is often criticized about him is mainly inconsistent character (which lends itself to being the butt-end of jokes too).

 

But,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, there's your answer right there.  He doesn't get written well whenever he is set up to be the main character for an episode.  That's where probably most of the criticism stems from, why he's considered 'inconsistent' in the first place.  (Not that it happens all the time, but it seems to happen all too often with him). 

one thing you stress with Sombra is the lack of dialogue. But is it really necessary? I mean, we got to see his personality through the citizens of the empire, and how elaborate his traps there were, too. It's more a "show, don't tell' thing going for Sombra, so he didn't really need more dialogue, as far as that's concerned.

 

Spike is a main character, but right from the start, it's established that he's an assistant, WORKS BEST as an assistant, and that the episodes he's in, he should be assisting, helping others when they need it, because that's been his job since he was hatched. That doesn't- nor should it- make him a bad character, or any less of a main character, in spite of that role.

[pony.colin 156]

one thing you stress with Sombra is the lack of dialogue. But is it really necessary? I mean, we got to see his personality through the citizens of the empire, and how elaborate his traps there were, too. It's more a "show, don't tell' thing going for Sombra, so he didn't really need more dialogue, as far as that's concerned.

 

- The dialogue thing is only a point that I can view as being one of the reasons why anyone would have the rationale to think that Sombra was a boring villain. I.E. - people who would criticize him as being a poor antagonist ignored or forgot about his indirect methods of fear and terror and his intelligence, because (I'm guessing at this point) that they were expecting a traditional method of introducing a villain to the audience, namely through dialogue to convey a sense of personality.  Conveying personality through other means, like mind-terror, foreboding doom, etc, seems to be missed by those who are critical of him.   Note:  I'm assuming, you're asking for what would be the rationale for people to criticize Sombra in the first place, hence my answer to explain one possible thought process.

 

 

 

 

Spike is a main character, but right from the start, it's established that he's an assistant, WORKS BEST as an assistant, and that the episodes he's in, he should be assisting, helping others when they need it, because that's been his job since he was hatched. That doesn't- nor should it- make him a bad character, or any less of a main character, in spite of that role.

 

Not really what I'm talking about.  Again, can't remember what were some of the actual criticisms of some of Spike's episodes that I found to be fair when people were bringing them up. (there were some, but can't remember on hand and would need to go searching again).   Spike being an assistant says just one aspect of his character.  We know that he's unusual and unique in the sense that he's really the only dragon baby living in pony society.  What does him being an assistant have to say about him?  Are we saying that's supposed to be the only thing that defines him? That's it?  There's more to Spike than just his assistant job to Twilight.  As you've stated, he has emotions, wants, desires, expectations, flaws, immaturity and maturity.  He can grow as a character in other words.   People (I'm guessing) just want to see him grow and mature (be written) well as a character since he seems so young like a kid and appears to be a character that will naturally develop like any of the other main characters.   Sure he's an assistant to Twi, but when an episode is going to be focusing on Spike, or have him co-star, Spike fans probably expect him to be well written and display his capacity as a character to grow and develop and solve problems as well.  He's not a bad character because he's an assistant, he can be written poorly though as displayed by some of the episodes where he's the main focus/protagonist. 

Edited May 13, 2015 by pony.colin

[SolyWack 482]

People seem to always bring up the bad villain, but skim over the good characters. Sombra had a very minimal appearance in the show, this allowed all the attention to go to the protagonists, making for better development and less pure action

This was sorely missed in A Canterlot Wedding, where a good portion of the episodes was developing Queen Chrysalises's character, and about half went into the protagonists plight

There was almost no development in the good guys, twilight got jealous, she git trapped, she got out, there was a fight scene, then they won. Thats not development, thats just going from Point A to B

Unlike in The Crystal Empire, where they had ample time to learn about the crystal ponies and their culture, and also enough time for the silly interactions between Ponies that we love, and also Twilights Adventure through the castle.

So Sombra was there and did just what was intended. So long story short, Yes over characterization does go over many peoples' heads

[ManaMinori 4,145]

People seem to always bring up the bad villain, but skim over the good characters. Sombra had a very minimal appearance in the show, this allowed all the attention to go to the protagonists, making for better development and less pure action

This was sorely missed in A Canterlot Wedding, where a good portion of the episodes was developing Queen Chrysalises's character, and about half went into the protagonists plight

There was almost no development in the good guys, twilight got jealous, she git trapped, she got out, there was a fight scene, then they won. Thats not development, thats just going from Point A to B

Unlike in The Crystal Empire, where they had ample time to learn about the crystal ponies and their culture, and also enough time for the silly interactions between Ponies that we love, and also Twilights Adventure through the castle.

So Sombra was there and did just what was intended. So long story short, Yes over characterization does go over many peoples' heads

I feel like these are the same people whofeel like Bon Bon and Lyra's recent development came out of left feild and didn't make sense. But in reality, it just went over their heads, like Spike and Sombra's complex characterization. Such a shame, really.

[ginger468 47]

Complex of course one sided characters can be boring hence why i used to just dislike most tv cartoon shows but cartoons got better.

[SolyWack 482]

 

Wow you really dug deep to find this topic, I hardly ever see stuff created more than a week ago, unless its pinned or a mega thread.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Wow you really dug deep to find this topic, I hardly ever see stuff created more than a week ago, unless its pinned or a mega thread.

not really. The latest pst hadn't even been made that long ago, so still an active topic.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

somehow, I get the feeling that with the airing of the 101th episode, today, people will still be blind to how much development Spike has under his scales.

[Littlecandylulu903 415]

Complex. One sided characters are boring. The latter is fine for stuff you're not supposed to take seriously, like:

 

 

But if you want people to care about your characters and the story, they need depth.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Complex. One sided characters are boring. The latter is fine for stuff you're not supposed to take seriously, like:

 

 

But if you want people to care about your characters and the story, they need depth.

ironically, though, that's what people seem to want. One-sided characters. Like the people who hate on poor Spike for being the voice of reason one episode, like Lesson Zero, and an "incompetent idiot for no reason", like in Spike at your service.

[Littlecandylulu903 415]

ironically, though, that's what people seem to want. One-sided characters. Like the people who hate on poor Spike for being the voice of reason one episode, like Lesson Zero, and an "incompetent idiot for no reason", like in Spike at your service.

I think what people want is consistency - smart or dumb, but not both. Multiple character traits are fine, but not ones that are like oil and water.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

I think what people want is consistency - smart or dumb, but not both. Multiple character traits are fine, but not ones that are like oil and water.

but he wasn't dumb in that episode. You can be smart, but still have flaws and slip up from time to time, can't you? The point of that episode in particular was due to due to his forgetting (or maybe not realizing, at the time) that his friends appreciate his help as a courtesy, rather than an obligation. So when it comes as an obligation, his help doesn't come naturally, and he screws up, due to trying too hard, to force himself to be useful.

[Littlecandylulu903 415]

but he wasn't dumb in that episode. You can be smart, but still have flaws and slip up from time to time, can't you? The point of that episode in particular was due to due to his forgetting (or maybe not realizing, at the time) that his friends appreciate his help as a courtesy, rather than an obligation. So when it comes as an obligation, his help doesn't come naturally, and he screws up, due to trying too hard, to force himself to be useful.

I don't think he was, I was just referring the "incompetent idiot for no reason" he got called... poor little fella... 

[ManaMinori 4,145]

I don't think he was, I was just referring the "incompetent idiot for no reason" he got called... poor little fella... 

oh. ok. Yeah, I agree. He's done so much for the mane 6, and by comparison, as far as disaster rearing its ugly head goes, he's nowhere near as incompetent as the mane 6 are. (else, Applejack would've been Timberwolf chow, in that same episode)

[Castle Bleck 19,341]

It's also possible to overdevelop a villain to the point of burning fans out.

 

Just look at Xehanort in Kingdom Hearts, for example:

 

First he's a fallen sage, then he's a deceptive apprentice-turned-cult-leader, then he's a glorified Sith Master fused with a tragic antihero (who's secretly also fused with the former's surrogate-brother-turned-rival), then he's a time-traveling Agent Smith / Aizen / Voldemort / etc., then he's connected to an ancient demigod (in Unchained), and now (as of the recent KH3 trailer at E3 2015) he's a chess-crazed Yami Bakura.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oncym3Sf4Ws

Edited June 20, 2015 by A.V.

[Shanks 10,816]

How much characterization a character should have depends on their role in the story. Main characters and major supporting characters tend to requite a large amount of characterization while background and one shot characters don't require as much but may still require a bit more depending on how they are used. As A.V. said it is possible to overdevelop though under development and improper development are also dangers.

 

In the case of Spike he has gotten alot characterization but much of his characterization past season 2 has been very questionable. The writers seem to write him as a joke character while almost completely ignoring his more thoughtful mature side which we did in fact see in seasons 1 and 2. It seems like the writers are running out of ideas for Spike and just add him in the occasional episode as an afterthought which is a shame. Spike's species alone makes for some great potential development with his dragon identity and even some world building.

 

Since Spike is not greedy (except for the occasional lapses) and is actually kind and thoughtful I think it is entirely reasonable to assume that there are other dragons like Spike out there. The episode Dragon Quest back in season 2 was good but I think it needs a follow up. We need to see that Spike isn't the only dragon that isn't a mindless, brutish bully incapable of higher thought. Dragons are a diverse and seriously under developed species in MLP and it is high time they that diversity in mythology is better represented.

 

For King Sombra since he was the main villain of the season 3 premier I think he required a bit more development, development which he thankfully got in the comic Fiendship is Magic #1 which I highly recommend if you are going to read ANY MLP comic. Sombra had his strong points, what made him dangerous is that he was not only powerful but also very intelligent and actually used ponies owns weakness and fears against them.

[Castle Bleck 19,341]

How much characterization a character should have depends on their role in the story. Main characters and major supporting characters tend to requite a large amount of characterization while background and one shot characters don't require as much but may still require a bit more depending on how they are used. As A.V. said it is possible to overdevelop though under development and improper development are also dangers.

 

In the case of Spike he has gotten alot characterization but much of his characterization past season 2 has been very questionable. The writers seem to write him as a joke character while almost completely ignoring his more thoughtful mature side which we did in fact see in seasons 1 and 2. It seems like the writers are running out of ideas for Spike and just add him in the occasional episode as an afterthought which is a shame. Spike's species alone makes for some great potential development with his dragon identity and even some world building.

 

Since Spike is not greedy (except for the occasional lapses) and is actually kind and thoughtful I think it is entirely reasonable to assume that there are other dragons like Spike out there. The episode Dragon Quest back in season 2 was good but I think it needs a follow up. We need to see that Spike isn't the only dragon that isn't a mindless, brutish bully incapable of higher thought. Dragons are a diverse and seriously under developed species in MLP and it is high time they that diversity in mythology is better represented.

 

For King Sombra since he was the main villain of the season 3 premier I think he required a bit more development, development which he thankfully got in the comic Fiendship is Magic #1 which I highly recommend if you are going to read ANY MLP comic. Sombra had his strong points, what made him dangerous is that he was not only powerful but also very intelligent and actually used ponies owns weakness and fears against them.

 

At least Spike finally got to meet some positive Dragons in that one Friends Forever comic. (And I'm hoping we'll see Dragon Town (or something similar) on the show as well.)

 

And FIENDship even retained Sombra's no-nonsense tactics---he shattered Amore after just a brief argument with her, then later came up with that curse on the Empire just in case Celestia and Luna were to defeat him.

[ManaMinori 4,145]

so Cadance got more layers added onto her character with the recent episode.....(she's not my favorite princess, so I keep forgetting I even mentioned her and left discussion open about her, in my own OP ) XD

[ManaMinori 4,145]

Wonder if anyomne can offer any other characters in MLP whose characterization is as complex as Sombra or Spike's