MLP And Equality

[OmegaBeamOfficial 622]

I don't usually like to get all political and start up arguments about anypony's views on what equality is and whether it's really a good approach. Now I'm not talking about different races and sexualities here, as I'm sure we can agree we are all equal in that regard. I'm rather talking about in terms of abilities and strength. So, just to pull out an example, is it right to consider a working class citizen just as valuable as someone calling shots for the country. Now, I for one think it's true, but you're probably thinking what the hell does this have to do with MLP?

 

My interest in this was sparked by two DA images featuring Twilight and Starlight in the aftermath of a battle. One showed Twilight standing over a defeated Starlight and the other reversed the roles with Starlight as the winner. This was before the season 5 finale was aired I think though, so obviously it's a little inconsistent, but we can let that slide. The title in particular interested me. "You are not my equal." And that got me thinking about the Season 5 premiere.

 

Now, to be honest, I don't think the premieres message was really presented clearly enough, well, half of it. Obviously I get that it's supposed to be saying that trying to brainwash others into being the same so you don't feel bad is wrong, but other than that the moral was completely lost on me.

 

This is all I really got from the moral in the end - Don't try to make everyone the same as it's not allowing them to be themselves (good so far) and no matter how fair you try to make everyone to each other, there will always be people better than you. What? Maybe I'm just being stupid and I'm missing something obvious, but it just doesnt really seem like a well thought over lesson. Granted the premieres writing isn't top 10 episodes material in the first place to me, but still.

 

What do you guys think? What's your opinion on the morality of this whole thing, not just in MLP, but in real life as well possibly. Can you make sense of the moral to the Season 5 premiere?

[woodgazer 71]

I like political. I love thinking about learning lessons from ponies. Get political more!

Also, great topic. As a non-North American, I've grown up watching American (not solely, of course) movies, where oftentimes there is a "socialist" or "communist" threat to the great nation of US and A (sorry ). And other than accepting that there are bad guys and good guys in the movies, the moral lessons of not being a leftie were lost on me and probably most other Europeans. So, at first when I watched season 5 premiere I had a little flashback and thought about those kind of movies, yawning about the upcoming bashing of the ideas Americans in power would attribute to communists. The feeling didn't really linger, though, because in my view the episodes were clear on that equality in regard to power over others isn't a bad thing (Twilight, having mighty powers, often states herself that she's no better than anypony else, and I think this is what she means, because clearly she's better att loads of stuff, reading, learning, casting cool spells, dancing...). I felt the episodes, rather simply, wanted to show that you can't merge anyone into the same kind of person, because we're all different, with different skills and interest. What I WOULD have liked to see more is the mane 6 learning something about how alike we all are, as well.

Nevertheless, while high society exists in Equestria and beyond, it's not really equal anyway. The princesses and the court cozy up to the dignitaries and nobility, giving them special treatment, and they all seem very used to it. As far as I can tell, no one has questioned the system. I'm not saying Celestia doesn't deserve her throne, for all the things she's continuously doing for her country, but like in the real world, there are unsung heroes in the "lower ranks" as well - why should they not get gala invitations and processions and fanfares?

To be fair, my belief is that there is some kind of social welfare system in place i n Equestria that makes sure no citizen falls through the cracks. (Except Screwy, which is very sad.)

And to answer your question. I do think the moral of the season 5 start is a bit flawed, since it doesn't bring up the thing you mention: equality in the form of basic pony rights: all ponies have equal worth and equal rights. Which goes well along with reality. We have equal rights "on paper", but the rich and mighty get away with things that us other people could never escape.

Also, I already have this shirt, because I found this very interesting even before you started a topic about it https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/339931-stand-with-equality

 

[OmegaBeamOfficial 622]

I like political. I love thinking about learning lessons from ponies. Get political more!

 

Also, great topic. As a non-North American, I've grown up watching American (not solely, of course) movies, where oftentimes there is a "socialist" or "communist" threat to the great nation of US and A (sorry ). And other than accepting that there are bad guys and good guys in the movies, the moral lessons of not being a leftie were lost on me and probably most other Europeans. So, at first when I watched season 5 premiere I had a little flashback and thought about those kind of movies, yawning about the upcoming bashing of the ideas Americans in power would attribute to communists. The feeling didn't really linger, though, because in my view the episodes were clear on that equality in regard to power over others isn't a bad thing (Twilight, having mighty powers, often states herself that she's no better than anypony else, and I think this is what she means, because clearly she's better att loads of stuff, reading, learning, casting cool spells, dancing...). I felt the episodes, rather simply, wanted to show that you can't merge anyone into the same kind of person, because we're all different, with different skills and interest. What I WOULD have liked to see more is the mane 6 learning something about how alike we all are, as well.

 

Nevertheless, while high society exists in Equestria and beyond, it's not really equal anyway. The princesses and the court cozy up to the dignitaries and nobility, giving them special treatment, and they all seem very used to it. As far as I can tell, no one has questioned the system. I'm not saying Celestia doesn't deserve her throne, for all the things she's continuously doing for her country, but like in the real world, there are unsung heroes in the "lower ranks" as well - why should they not get gala invitations and processions and fanfares?

 

To be fair, my belief is that there is some kind of social welfare system in place i n Equestria that makes sure no citizen falls through the cracks. (Except Screwy, which is very sad.)

 

And to answer your question. I do think the moral of the season 5 start is a bit flawed, since it doesn't bring up the thing you mention: equality in the form of basic pony rights: all ponies have equal worth and equal rights. Which goes well along with reality. We have equal rights "on paper", but the rich and mighty get away with things that us other people could never escape.

 

Also, I already have this shirt, because I found this very interesting even before you started a topic about it https://www.teepublic.com/t-shirt/339931-stand-with-equality

 

 

Well, I can't really relate to the first part of what you said, since I'm not American myself. However, since I've been learning about it in history, it DOES remind me of that whole Great Plains business and how everyone was treating each other unfairly (not gonna go into detail, I don't think this topic needs it.). That's not related to the topic at hand that much, just thought I'd bring it up. I'm fine with communists existing, while I'm not really that sure about all their rules and policies, they have the right to make their country however they want, It's fine by me. I think the whole Twilight not being better than anypony else thing seems to be where Starlight went wrong. She automatically thought that because Twilight was a princess that she thought she was better than anyone else. A lot of people say that the season should have ended with Twilight just defeating Starlight and moving on, but I have to disagree with that, as It's not really setting a good example of that whole equality thing.

 

And yes, It's true there's high society in Equestria, but in all honesty in doesn't look like the common ponies really seem to care about it, other than Rarity of course, and vice versa. Although, I can't really remember any unsung heroes in MLP...

 

Yeah, I know It's crazy to associate moral standards with talking cartoon ponies, but I felt I should say something. And again, I was rather talking about the power side of things, with all their different cutie marks and the inequality of different pony races (unicorn, pegasus, earth pony.) though that last part was already fixed up with the first Hearth's Warming Eve episode, so I didn't bring attention to it. But now that I think about it, money is a good analogy too.

[VengefulStrudel 1,486]

Hey @@OmegaBeamOfficial, since your thread is discussing the moral of Season 5's premiere and and equality in Equestria, it's being moved to Show Discussion. Have a nice day!

[Thrond 3,263]

Well, I never interpreted that episode's message as overtly political. Rather, I thought it was more about how having strong differences and even disagreements with your friends is no reason that you can't keep a close friendship. People are different, and we're all able to appreciate each other's differences, so if I like one thing and my friend does not, that has no effect on our friendship.

'Of course, I also sort of felt it was one of the episodes where the plot isn't strictly based around a moral. Clearly, coercion is wrong, but the actions of a cult might not be strictly applicable to everyday children.

[Brightbart 268]

I took it as either cults are bad or communism is bad. Either way both are correct   Funny how the show supports a diarchy, and until recently(in the show) a monarchy, over democracy. Must be the whole Canada thing...

[Thrond 3,263]

I took it as either cults are bad or communism is bad. Either way both are correct   Funny how the show supports a diarchy, and until recently(in the show) a monarchy, over democracy. Must be the whole Canada thing...

Hey, we elect our Parliament! 

Edited September 23, 2016 by AlexanderThrond

[OmegaBeamOfficial 622]

Well, I never interpreted that episode's message as overtly political. Rather, I thought it was more about how having strong differences and even disagreements with your friends is no reason that you can't keep a close friendship. People are different, and we're all able to appreciate each other's differences, so if I like one thing and my friend does not, that has no effect on our friendship.

'Of course, I also sort of felt it was one of the episodes where the plot isn't strictly based around a moral. Clearly, coercion is wrong, but the actions of a cult might not be strictly applicable to everyday children.

Well, I get where you're coming from, it is a kids show after all but there have been times where It's had really thoughtful and intelligent writing, that's what draws us to MLP: FIM so much, well, one of the factors anyway. Thing is though, I don't have a problem with cults as an idea, if people want to believe differently to whatever religion is offering then they should have the right to do that, however, creating a cult like Starlight Glimmer's Isn't right.

I took it as either cults are bad or communism is bad. Either way both are correct   Funny how the show supports a diarchy, and until recently(in the show) a monarchy, over democracy. Must be the whole Canada thing...

Funny thing is, I wouldn't really call it fact. Cults aren't inherently bad, there are just so many bad cults similar to what Starlight was doing that It's tainted their name. But I wouldn't call communism bad, I just prefer democracy in all honesty, It's all opinion based, I don't see why they're using shows to tell the kids what they're supposed to think is bad instead of letting them decide for themselves.

Hey, we elect our Parliament! 

What the hell happened in Canada? XD

[Thrond 3,263]

What the hell happened in Canada? XD

We still have a monarchy. The Queen doesn't do very much though.

[OmegaBeamOfficial 622]

We still have a monarchy. The Queen doesn't do very much though.

Oh, that's kinda funny. Over where I live It's pretty much the same thing.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

When Chuck Norris meets a grizzly while walking through the woods he gives the beast a good trouncing. When you meet a grizzly while walking through the woods the beast gives you a good trouncing.

 

Equality of opportunity =/= equality of outcome. Deal with it.

[OmegaBeamOfficial 622]

When Chuck Norris meets a grizzly while walking through the woods he gives the beast a good trouncing. When you meet a grizzly while walking through the woods the beast gives you a good trouncing.

 

Equality of opportunity =/= equality of outcome. Deal with it.

That doesn't make much sense. You're basically saying if you aren't Chuck Norris you can't beat a grizzly, not that I'd do something like that anyway mind you, but still.

[Goat-kun 2,527]

That doesn't make much sense. You're basically saying if you aren't Chuck Norris you can't beat a grizzly, not that I'd do something like that anyway mind you, but still.

Nope. I’m just speculating you’re average. That means that you don’t stand a chance against some of nature’s more notorious creations without proper equipment, and even with said equipment you’d probably still die, as would I. Yet some exceptional individuals would survive. You seem troubled by that.

[OmegaBeamOfficial 622]

Nope. I’m just speculating you’re average. That means that you don’t stand a chance against some of nature’s more notorious creations without proper equipment, and even with said equipment you’d probably still die, as would I. Yet some exceptional individuals would survive. You seem troubled by that.

Well, I guess you have a point... But I am troubled admittedly, low self esteem issues and all that.

[Vlazamal 338]

Starlight Glimmer's ideology is not liberalism, communism, it's actually much, much closer to Communitarianism! While the "Do your best by doing your worst" is not a staple communitarianism (or of any modern or prexisting political doctrine), her attest to indivisualism was the heart of the actions . She believed everpony would enter chaos if they weren't binded as a community, set from the unique identities and under her rule. In Our Town, everyone worked for the good of all, and not for themselves. That's uncannily close to a modern day Accountable Communitarianism, a rare and nearly extinct ideology. It expresses the ideal of  To their words, they proclaim that "communal values must be judged by external and overriding criteria, based on shared human experience."  It's worth noting that, by Communitarians, this critera isn't specified. Communitarianism is hallmarked by the strong belief in the Commune and working for the benefit of everyone, and it's seperation from Communism, but not being specific. The values in which a community is to uphold is generally left to the community to decide, or by an external set of rules determined outside the community. To many Christian Communitarians (communitarians are few in number) this is the Bible. The Founder of this Communitarian movement, Amitai Etzioni, is Jewish, to be noted. To Starlight Glimmer, this meant no cutie marks, and do your worst. By a look at her actions vs. her words, her orders were for the greater commune. You can't bake a good cupcake (sorry Pinkie) because that would cause Jealousy. That destroys Our Town. This line of thinking is not Communist; you'd be punished for not performing your best! Just communitarian. Equality isn't her end goal; as we can see this by her double standard in regards to her position in society. It's a means to create Harmony.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Vlazamal

[Honeysuckle 135]

We still have a monarchy. The Queen doesn't do very much though.

i just google'd "Canada's queen" and it came up as Elizabeth the 2nd?????? She's queen of Canada too?????

[Guest]

Honestly I am probably in the minority wanting to show not to get as political. I feel that going that route usually ends badly. I am hoping for less of that as time goes on and more whimsical fun that attracted me to the show in the first place.

[Vlazamal 338]

Honestly I am probably in the minority wanting to show not to get as political. I feel that going that route usually ends badly. I am hoping for less of that as time goes on and more whimsical fun that attracted me to the show in the first place.

Yeah. I agree 100%. Politics is at it's heart, designed to be divisive. The Avatar community noticibly shrunk after Korrasami, that's worth noting. I watch MLP as a break from politics (and my crappy life lel). It's the most neutral show I can think of; all sides of the political spectrum can enjoy it.

[Thrond 3,263]

i just google'd "Canada's queen" and it came up as Elizabeth the 2nd?????? She's queen of Canada too?????

And Australia, and New Zealand, and several other countries. She's represented here by a governor-general, who also doesn't do much.

The Avatar community noticibly shrunk after Korrasami, that's worth noting.

That is really not something which should be political.

 

I'm also going to say that, like it or not, what a show chooses not to depict can be viewed as political as well, and it's easy for a show to inadvertently become political because it does something boneheaded. If you strive to avoid divisiveness, your show is probably gonna wind up as wishy-washy and boring.

[OmegaBeamOfficial 622]

Starlight Glimmer's ideology is not liberalism, communism, it's actually much, much closer to Communitarianism! While the "Do your best by doing your worst" is not a staple communitarianism (or of any modern or prexisting political doctrine), her attest to indivisualism was the heart of the actions . She believed everpony would enter chaos if they weren't binded as a community, set from the unique identities and under her rule. In Our Town, everyone worked for the good of all, and not for themselves. That's uncannily close to a modern day Accountable Communitarianism, a rare and nearly extinct ideology. It expresses the ideal of  To their words, they proclaim that "communal values must be judged by external and overriding criteria, based on shared human experience."  It's worth noting that, by Communitarians, this critera isn't specified. Communitarianism is hallmarked by the strong belief in the Commune and working for the benefit of everyone, and it's seperation from Communism, but not being specific. The values in which a community is to uphold is generally left to the community to decide, or by an external set of rules determined outside the community. To many Christian Communitarians (communitarians are few in number) this is the Bible. The Founder of this Communitarian movement, Amitai Etzioni, is Jewish, to be noted. To Starlight Glimmer, this meant no cutie marks, and do your worst. By a look at her actions vs. her words, her orders were for the greater commune. You can't bake a good cupcake (sorry Pinkie) because that would cause Jealousy. That destroys Our Town. This line of thinking is not Communist; you'd be punished for not performing your best! Just communitarian. Equality isn't her end goal; as we can see this by her double standard in regards to her position in society. It's a means to create Harmony.

Interesting, I never thought of it like that before. The scary thing is that even with how wrong this all is, it technically did kind of create harmony. I see good intentions here, but sadly, the whole taking cutie marks thing just Isn't justifiable, that's still limiting free expression I think. No-one likes to be jealous, hell, I wish I didn't have to be jealous so much, but this is the wrong way to go about not just that, but creating harmony in general.

Edited September 24, 2016 by OmegaBeamOfficial

[woodgazer 71]

Honestly I am probably in the minority wanting to show not to get as political. I feel that going that route usually ends badly. I am hoping for less of that as time goes on and more whimsical fun that attracted me to the show in the first place.

I feel you, kind of. I love the whimsical fun too. But in all that fun, some core values shine through. We learn that friendship is good. It's good to care for others, help others, share with others. It's good to respect animals and nature. It's good to be true and honest. Celebrate that we're all different but can get along anyway. While that may not be expressly political, I think in a way it's at least ideological. It is a stance. I don't think all politicians and political parties share those values. But I'm glad the show stands for them.

[OmegaBeamOfficial 622]

Honestly I am probably in the minority wanting to show not to get as political. I feel that going that route usually ends badly. I am hoping for less of that as time goes on and more whimsical fun that attracted me to the show in the first place.

 

Yeah. I agree 100%. Politics is at it's heart, designed to be divisive. The Avatar community noticibly shrunk after Korrasami, that's worth noting. I watch MLP as a break from politics (and my crappy life lel). It's the most neutral show I can think of; all sides of the political spectrum can enjoy it.

 

And Australia, and New Zealand, and several other countries. She's represented here by a governor-general, who also doesn't do much.

 

That is really not something which should be political.

 

I'm also going to say that, like it or not, what a show chooses not to depict can be viewed as political as well, and it's easy for a show to inadvertently become political because it does something boneheaded. If you strive to avoid divisiveness, your show is probably gonna wind up as wishy-washy and boring.

I think the show should keep a balance between the whimsical nature and the political side of things, though more whimsical than political, I just find it more interesting. But It's like yin and yang, take one away from the other and the show could be ruined.

[Guest]

 

 

I feel you, kind of. I love the whimsical fun too. But in all that fun, some core values shine through. We learn that friendship is good. It's good to care for others, help others, share with others. It's good to respect animals and nature. It's good to be true and honest. Celebrate that we're all different but can get along anyway. While that may not be expressly political, I think in a way it's at least ideological. It is a stance. I don't think all politicians and political parties share those values. But I'm glad the show stands for them.

 

No offense but those are kids lessons. If you didn't know that friendship was a good, to care for others, to share at the age of 18+ then I worry about the adults of this world. Those aren't political statements, it's just lighthearted lessons that virtually everyone should know or be able to relate to. The creators intended it as a show for families, so there is no political agenda within it, any that you are seeing you're making yourself see.

 

 

 

I think the show should keep a balance between the whimsical nature and the political side of things, though more whimsical than political, I just find it more interesting. But It's like yin and yang, take one away from the other and the show could be ruined.

 

Once you start going political there really is no turning back. People will expect more and more like they always do. 

[woodgazer 71]

No offense but those are kids lessons. If you didn't know that friendship was a good, to care for others, to share at the age of 18+ then I worry about the adults of this world. Those aren't political statements, it's just lighthearted lessons that virtually everyone should know or be able to relate to. The creators intended it as a show for families, so there is no political agenda within it, any that you are seeing you're making yourself see.

Sure. But the episodes of the show may work as inspiring reminders of the fact that the world could be if we co-operated more. Just because a lot of us did learn and took to heart those kids' lessons while growing up, doesn't mean we always remember and act according to them. If the show does inspire and remind some to do good things, I'm sure you agree that's a beautiful thing, whether you want to call it political or not.

Sadly, the people most in need of a refreshment of these lessons are probably ones who don't watch the show.

[OmegaBeamOfficial 622]

T

 

No offense but those are kids lessons. If you didn't know that friendship was a good, to care for others, to share at the age of 18+ then I worry about the adults of this world. Those aren't political statements, it's just lighthearted lessons that virtually everyone should know or be able to relate to. The creators intended it as a show for families, so there is no political agenda within it, any that you are seeing you're making yourself see.

 

 

 

 

Once you start going political there really is no turning back. People will expect more and more like they always do. 

There hasn't been any other political stuff in the show since, so meh.