Cutie Mark theory: Redux

[Buck Testa 5,505]

Way back in 2014, I postulated that cutie marks had a major influence over a pony and what they did. While others stated that cutie marks were only symbols on their flanks representing their interests, I flipped it on its head and said that their special talents are dictated by their cutie marks, and that these cutie marks do this because they believe that its the best course of action for that ponies life to take. I postulated that ponies roles in society are not there by choice, but because their interests and talents are dictated too them by harmony through their cutie marks. People understandably did not believe the theory, they said that it would rob ponies of agency in the situation, and that it had nefarious implications that they'd never put into a Y rated show. 

Yet the clues were there. 

I pointed to the cutie pox, but they said it was just a sickness and it probably didn't have anything to do with cutie marks, even though forced special talents were on clear display

I pointed to the fact that the mane six were compelled to be in those spots when the rainboom happened, shown especially through Rarity whom was literally dragged by the horn to that rock

I pointed to the season three finale, where the cutie marks were telling them how they were supposed to behave, and people wrote it off as just the spell. Though I think we can say the spell DID influence their memories, the compulsion to perform the tasks given by the cutie mark was not. 

Then the artificial Equal Sign cutie mark was introduced, which actively forced ponies to not have ANY talents, and when their marks were returned to them their appearances and talents fundamentally changed. 

Then Troubleshoes misinterpreted what his cutie mark was compelling him to do, and he believed it to be a curse. Once he found the right interpretation, he was happy. 

I pointed to the cutie map, and how both it and the marks themselves told ponies to go to specific areas to help fix the friendship, the harmony, of that area, and then gives a signal when they completed their given task. 

 And now THIS episode happens, where the princesses marks were switched, and it results in their special talents and even their magic being changed on a fundamental level for 24 hours. 

 

Some aspects of the theory are now outdated, but the over all idea that cutie marks influence and compel ponies to behave in specific roles in society has only gotten stronger with time. Like I said way back when, the cutie mark influences the magic of a pony to such a degree that most unicorns only are able to cast spells related to their special talent, while cutie marks like Twilight and Starlight make their special talent be ABOUT magic. The cutie mark dictate who the pony is and what they do, right up to the princesses themselves. The cutie mark chooses a path that the pony is assigned too will perform best at in society, though the pony may misinterpret what the mark is pushing them to do. They have influence on the pony even before they show up on the flank. 

I know there are STILL going to be people who will insist that cutie marks are nothing, but honestly at this point its a rather silly position to take. It is plainly evident that ponies do not have complete control over their own destiny's and that cutie marks have a distinct influence on who they become. Yes, these marks usually pick forms that has synergy with the pony so that its compelling is barely evident, but once they are switched onto another pony, its influence is much more evident. 

Ponies are not entirely free creatures on this show. They are influenced to fill the roles that they are given by harmony itself, and its only when the marks are swapped around that such influences are even really evident. They are pushed in directions that their marks, that harmony, believes is the best choice for them. I think its pretty safe to say at this point that theory is confirmed enough that I may now perform the I told you so dance. 

 

 

[Jeric 46,860]

 

x -> y = x -> x = y -> y so that x -> z = x -> y

More aptly put ... what in literature or nature takes on something of its host (whether symbiotic or parasitic) and brings it with them when they find a new host? Does this ever (in nature and literature) impact the new host? 

 

Interpretation Combo Breaker! 

 

 

 

 

 

[BastementSparkle 20,328]

Honestly? I still don't fully agree with you. I agree that the marks do indeed have a magical influence over the pony that can affect them, but I don't agree that the mark itself is what forces them down a certain path in life, at least not the natural marks. A Cutie Mark appears when a pony finds their "Special talent", the thing they love doing the most, or what makes them feel passionate. The mark itself is a reflection of a natural interest of theirs, it appears because of what they want and desire, and helps them achieve that, likely with a "Magical Talent boost" of sorts.

 So, the mark doesn't force them to do something, they choose to do it, it appears when they make a decision on what's important or worthwhile to them. The problem comes in when the mark is influenced or changed with magic, because that screws with the whole thing. When the Mane six had their marks swapped around, and their memories, they became convinced these new marks on their flanks were their true Cutie Marks, and what happened? They became miserable. They sucked at their talents, they were unhappy, they were convinced their passion was something else other than what it really was, and it didn't work out well at all. They were happy once they got their marks, their memories, and their true passions back.

 Season 7 Episode 10 Spoiler:

 

Same sort of thing happened with Celestia and Luna today. While their marks were switched and that did alter their magic and let Celestia enter dreams, they still weren't good at each other's jobs, nor did they enjoy it or find it fulfilling. They found it stressful and struggled with it.

A lot of these other examples are caused by outside forces too. Cutie Pox is a disease that likely doesn't function the same as a normal Cutie Mark, the Equal Signs do function similarly to a Cutie Mark in that they can effect Ponies talents, but they drain it away instead of boosting them. The Equalized ponies were also unhappy and wished for their real marks back. Troubleshoes being able to misinterpret his mark also tells me that the natural marks likely aren't forcing anypony to do anything.

Basically, I think the marks do have a magical effect, they boost a ponies talent. But when functioning normally, they don't dictate what that pony does, the pony themself decides and then the mark appears as a symbol of that. When the mark is changed by magic, things malfunction. They might get the "Talent boost" effect, but they still don't enjoy their new "Talent", and if they weren't already kind of good at it before, they likely still won't be good at it even with the mark. If Cutie Marks really did function like you say, why wouldn't ponies still love and be good at their changed talents after marks get switched.

Edited May 20, 2017 by RareBase

[Jeric 46,860]

30 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

I pointed to the season three finale, where the cutie marks were telling them how they were supposed to behave, and people wrote it off as just the spell. Though I think we can say the spell DID influence their memories, the compulsion to perform the tasks given by the cutie mark was not. 

Hidden in this is perhaps also the biggest counter argument to the idea that Cutie Marks eliminate free will. 

32 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

Then the artificial Equal Sign cutie mark was introduced, which actively forced ponies to not have ANY talents, and when their marks were returned to them their appearances and talents fundamentally changed. 

Can you spot it? 

 

SStB's unfinished spell also may not be the be the best example to use for evidence on how Cutie Marks work since it directly contradicts every other interpretation I've seen, including yours. 

If this was a Philosphical problem or a Scientific experiment, you would have to reconcile and explain everything presented for a conclusion. 

Which is why I stick with a somewhat fluid approach that is adaptable. Either that or the writers are making it up as they go on. =D

[Buck Testa 5,505]

2 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Either that or the writers are making it up as they go on. =D

This of course is the true answer lol. 

The unfinished spell definitely has aspects to it that make its relation to the rest in question if this were a rigorous science experiment, however, my inclusion of it is specifically pointing to the marks influence on the ponies. The memory shenanigans can largely be attributed to the spell, but the cutie mark influences have been seen in other places. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, RareBase said:

They became miserable. They sucked at their talents, they were unhappy, they were convinced their passion was something else other than what it really was, and it didn't work out well at all. They were happy once they got their marks, their memories, and their true passions back.

This doesn't contradict my theory though. The cutie mark pushes them in the direction it believe they will perform best in. When the cutie mark is swapped, the mark is no longer personalized for the pony, so it pushes them in a direction that isn't suited for them anymore. 

[Jeric 46,860]

Just now, Buck Testa said:

This doesn't contradict my theory though. The cutie mark pushes them in the direction it believe they will perform best in. When the cutie mark is swapped, the mark is no longer personalized for the pony, so it pushes them in a direction that isn't suited for them anymore. 

If memories are tied to Cutie Marks (as evidenced by your inclusion of MMC), why is that absent from other examples of Cutie Mark removal or switching? Please reconcile that. Otherwise its inclusion invites flaws and I am forced to reject the totality of the conclusion for intellectual honesty

[Buck Testa 5,505]

Just now, Jeric said:

If memories are tied to Cutie Marks (as evidenced by your inclusion of MMC), why is that absent from other examples of Cutie Mark removal or switching? Please reconcile that. Otherwise its inclusion invites flaws and I am forced to reject the totality of the conclusion for intellectual honesty

Like I said before though, the Unfinished Spell had more going on with it than just the cutie marks. It was affecting the elements of harmony, the memories of the entire town at least. The cutie mark switching however is consistent with other parts of the theory, while the memory altering is something solely in the Unfinished spells court. Even if we were to remove  season 3 finale's piece of evidence from the roster due to it being tainted by other factors, the rest of the evidence is still more than fine, including todays episode. 

[Jeric 46,860]

2 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

Like I said before though, the Unfinished Spell had more going on with it than just the cutie marks.

So would it not be unfair to dismiss people when they suggest that there is more going on with Cutie Marks in general? 

[Buck Testa 5,505]

1 minute ago, Jeric said:

So would it not be unfair to dismiss when people suggest that there is more going on with Cutie Marks in general? 

No, what people usually suggest (from my experience) is that Cutie marks do nothing and have no influence on ponies, which is utter hogwash especially with the mountain of evidence to the contrary.

[BastementSparkle 20,328]

1 minute ago, Buck Testa said:

This doesn't contradict my theory though. The cutie mark pushes them in the direction it believe they will perform best in. When the cutie mark is swapped, the mark is no longer personalized for the pony, so it pushes them in a direction that isn't suited for them anymore. 

Fair enough, but then the question is just between which happens first. The mark influencing the pony, or the pony influencing the mark. I still feel it's the second one, the mark appears after a revelation of what a pony wants to do with their life, if the mark is personalized it has to take into account both what the pony is good at, and what they want. I don't think the marks influence much of anything unil they appear, and even then their influence when working properly is limited. When the system is thrown out of order, things don't work right, the incorrect mark clearly can't influence a pony to love something they don't, or to be great at something they aren't talented with. I feel there's still plenty of room for free will here.

[Jeric 46,860]

Just now, Buck Testa said:

No, what people usually suggest (from my experience) is that Cutie marks do nothing and have no influence on ponies, which is utter hogwash especially with the mountain of evidence to the contrary.

I was in that thread you referenced from 2014. I suggested such complexity then as I do now, though have carefully revised my own view based on evidence seen and hinted in The Cutie Map. Cutie Marks in general invite the sort of phenomenal discussion that populates debates on Determinism vs Free Will in Philosophy and Psychology. 

2 minutes ago, RareBase said:

I still feel it's the second one, the mark appears after a revelation of what a pony wants to do with their life, if the mark is personalized it has to take into account both what the pony is good at, and what they want

Yep. Marks appear when their talents and destiny are discovered by the character. The discovery itself could be influenced by external forces, yet the Mark is a magical representation of the pony. After years of magical use, the Mark itself could have attributes of the pony it is a part of, so if there are magical shenanigans that swap things, you can basically 'transplant' the talent magic -- without actually transplanting the success of having the talent. 

Even upon receiving the Cutie Mark, not everyone is aware of what it means or how their talent should be used, also adding an element of free will even if the Cutie Mark itself was predestined. You cannot receive a Mark that you will not like according to Luna. 

[Buck Testa 5,505]

2 minutes ago, RareBase said:

Fair enough, but then the question is just between which happens first. The mark influencing the pony, or the pony influencing the mark

 

It's definitely the former. 

3 minutes ago, Jeric said:

I was in that thread you referenced from 2014. I suggested such complexity then as I do now, though have carefully revised my own view based on evidence seen and hinted in The Cutie Map. Cutie Marks in general invite the sort of phenomenal discussion that populates debates on Determinism vs Free Will in Philosophy and Psychology.

Yes, but my "I told you so" moment was more directed at the people who denounce any idea that cutie marks influence ponies. Your points were always more entertaining to debate and delve more into the nuances of WHAT exactly is going on, but you still acknowledge something is going on.

From what I'm looking at, this is a very deterministic society, where free will isn't as much of a factor as choosing whats "best" for a pony.  

[Jeric 46,860]

4 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

It's definitely the former. 

The Mane Six may not be the best example either, especially since a few of their Marks are ambiguous (and muddled to all hell with episodes like MMC and TCM) and there was a central catalyst for all six of them receiving their Marks. 

I am a firm believer that the Mane Six's story is predestination in motion, but do not apply that to every character. 

[BastementSparkle 20,328]

1 minute ago, Buck Testa said:

It's definitely the former.

There's nothing here explicitly stating that it's her "Cutie Mark" dragging her there. It could be some freak accident of magic, like a magical burst baby ponies often get...Which is highly coincidental, so perhaps unlikely. Maybe instead of her as of yet, non-existent cutie mark, it could be the Tree/Elements themselves somehow causing this? The Tree of Harmony had Twilight's Cutie Mark on it even back when Celestia and Luna found it. If the Elements have been connected in some form to the mane six even back then, who's to say they couldn't somehow pull some strings to make sure all the Mane Six are in place to end up with the "Destinies" it wants them to have to best wield the elements?

Even then, that destiny obviously isn't something totally set in stone, otherwise Starlight wouldn't have been able to go back and prevent the Rainboom from happening. Time can still be altered. The Mane Six also might not be the best example, as their status of bearing the Elements might mean their "Magical Destiny" is something unique to them and doesn't apply to everypony else.

[Jeric 46,860]

3 minutes ago, RareBase said:

otherwise Starlight wouldn't have been able to go back and prevent the Rainboom from happening

That is something I had not fully considered as evidence of how flexible destiny on this show is. Interesting. You gave me something to dwell on RareBase. 

[SugarCoatxMarblePie 701]

I think a cutie mark is like an animal imprinting onto its mother.

Just it happens later in life, and its the moment their brains decide what to work on for development, what it'll focus its natural magic towards, and interpretation of the mark matters too as Rarity designs dresses for example, and the diamonds are symbolic of generosity and fabulousness etc, rather than literal gems, so its not the mark really its the meaning behind the mark that dictates. But she also finds gems, so yeah lol. But its not what she is best at as Maud demonstrated what gems were more common before.

I think it does change one's focus, but I think its like the nature vs nurture argument, like lets say in a universe where AJ's entire family died, and no more apples exist, would she still get an apple cutie mark? No, it'd be impossible. So question is what mark does she get? Pears? Or, something based on locality.

I think a cutie mark is gained for whichever fills you with the most happiness or joy and that is what is imprinted into your mind then your mind, and thus your magic, end up developing towards such a thing. Why the cmc was delayed can be explained to having a more diverse meaning of a cutie mark, more stress than their peers, and their indecision to stick to one task. They got marks all similar because they are the best of friends. I mean sure Sweetie is prolly good at singing, actually, but its not what impact she wants to make with her life, so its also tied to purpose perhaps, not just joy.

But that's just my take, which is not even a head-canon because I am open to information contradicting it in the future.

But yeah, its prolly just the directions their magic takes. Like the years of psychological pruning during psycho-social development. It lets the magic focus to excel, rather than being too unwieldy and a 'master of none' jack of all trades sorta deal.

39 minutes ago, Buck Testa said:

 

It's definitely the former. 

Yes, but my "I told you so" moment was more directed at the people who denounce any idea that cutie marks influence ponies. Your points were always more entertaining to debate and delve more into the nuances of WHAT exactly is going on, but you still acknowledge something is going on.

From what I'm looking at, this is a very deterministic society, where free will isn't as much of a factor as choosing whats "best" for a pony.  

Eh I see Rarity interested in dresses, doesn't know what to add to them, her magic brings her to gems, helpfully, to add to them to make them nicer, then she gets her mark. I don't see her like, liking construction or something, and focusing on that, then boom, randomly dresses. That's not really what happened here, she took interest first and was working hard at it.

If we question why she needed them to be spectacular, well, her parents are Unicorns and she prolly had material related to upper-class living such as Canterlot, prim and proper in some ways. So its environmental or genetic, not because cutie mark sky daddy(Hasbro? Faust? lol) said so.

[Goat-kun 2,528]

Cutie marks are like the Brand of Sacrifice from Berserk. Those branded supposedly cannot escape a role that has been bestowed upon them; however, they retain their free will and the ability to struggle against the current of causality while events push them towards the inevitable conclusion.

 

Cutie marks are similar. They bestow upon a person a specific set of attributes which enable said person to excel at specific tasks. These attributes can be removed or exchanged relatively easily along with the ability to perform the associated tasks. Despite all that, the individuals can choose not to use their attributes and engage in activities that are ill-suited for them. Perhaps some strugglers have beaten their destiny and become entities even the "Tree Hand" cannot fully grasp. To be devoid of destiny yet in possession of many useful attributes. Can it be done?

 

What about Gabby? Should we brush griffins like her off as comic relief/lesson fodder? Can such an unmarked creature actually have a greater capacity to grow than a pony? What if someone like her would start studying magic like Zecora? Sniff, sniff ... Is that a shounen plot I smell?

[ErisPegasus 56]

The best answer? Continuity drift.

As the show expands and expands, justifications in old episodes don't cut it anymore. So the show outgrows them without so much of a glance back.

It may be the postmodernist in me, but I'm not too concerned. Unless it's blatantly egregious.