Characters are enabling Starlight's actions

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

8 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

Starlight has, in multiple cases, recklessly endangered and violated others by her actions

 

2 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

I was under the impression that it took both powerful magic and a certain disposition to be able to force another pony to talk against his will, or to mind-control five ponies such that they're unable to exercise their free will and are under the command of the spell caster, or to nonconsensually switch the princesses' cutie marks and abilities, to give the biggest examples. So most of the other characters in the show couldn't have done the same things as Starlight did, and thus, the specific issues with Starlight's actions wouldn't have come up with those other characters.

 

Wow. So if anyone is still bothering to follow this discussion, this is an example of “moving the goalposts,” a fallacy by which instead of addressing the arguments the other makes, you try to side step them and make them argue something else entirely. In this case, @Music Chart Fan made the original argument, that Starlight recklessly endangers others and violates them. I shaped my counter argument around that word choice, saying that Starlight is hardly alone in recklessly endangering people or violating them, so singling her out for this is hypocritical. Instead of answering my points, he sidesteps the issue by “moving the goal posts” from the very inclusive “reckless endangerment” to very specific things that Starlight has done, and saying she does them too often, trying to change this into a “which is worse” debate. It’s what people do when they realize they’re defending a poor argument, they abandon it without acknowledging it’s weak and try to come up with another. These kinds of tactics are very underhanded and a sign the other person isn’t operating in good faith, and I feel like I should just dust off my hands and walk away from this. But, in the interest of not assuming the worst of others, I’m going to instead assume that this was unintentional, and do my best to address his new arguments.

2 hours ago, Music Chart Fan said:

I also don't recall any of the protagonist characters having the same consistent pattern of controversial actions - with the same severity and within the same amount of appearances/screen time - as Starlight had in her appearances after her reformation.

 

Severity? If you can’t think of actions they’ve done that had severe or potentially severe consequences, than you aren’t trying. I can think of two from just season one.

Applebuck Season: While Applejack certainly caused quite a bit of trouble for her friends and the town, only one thing really qualifies as a big deal. Giving over a dozen ponies food poisoning. Food poisoning is not a small deal, people die from it, 5,000 people in the US alone every year. Even if they recover just fine, in our world, this kind of negligence is liable for civil suits. Except it’s not Applejack being sued, it’s the owner of the business that let her work there, the Cakes. So, if we follow your lead and look at the absolute worst outcome of Applejacks negligence, not only did she put people’s life in jeopardy, she also left the cakes open to multiple lawsuits. That’s just as big, if not bigger than what Starlight has done since she reformed.

Swarm of the Century: In a desperate attempt to fix the parasprite swarm, Twilight impulsively casts a spell that makes the swarm eat the town itself instead of food. We see the town is a smoldering wreck afterwards, with no way to even guess at the amount of property damage, like the Apple’s farm, or priceless goods lost. At the very least, her reckless spell cost a lot money to fix, and at least her friend and her family their home.

And of course, I can’t not mention Lesson Zero: Where Twilight used mind altering magic on three children to make them violently fight over a doll because she’s afraid she’ll be sent back to kindergarten. A spell she had no control over and ended up infecting dozens of ponies, including the mayor, before Celestia arrived to clean up her mess. A mess she caused for entirely stupid reasons, but was still not only unpunished, but treated no differently by the dozens of ponies she affected, and we never even saw her apologize to them for it. Lesson Zero alone blows any of these complaints about Starlight out of the water. If you can do this and not only walk free, but be crowned princess later, any complaint about Starlight’s misdeeds should lead off with, “well, at least it wasn’t Lesson Zero, but,” or no one should take anything you have to say afterwards seriously.

As for the consistency, I don’t think three instances across two seasons for a total of 52 episodes is all that big a deal, but even then, it’s just Starlight’s character arc. They’re having the reforming villain act like a reforming villain. Even then, they still give Starlight harsher treatment for her deeds than the main six ever recieved. At least Starlight is shown being scolded and apologizing, something the rest of the group doesn’t even do most of the time. 

You want to look at this as some great evidence that Starlight is some sort of unique disaster of a character? You go right on ahead and keep thinking that. I’ll just be over here, ignoring your opinion and treating Starlight the same way I treat all the characters.

[Music Chart Fan 819]

@ShootingStar159,

I quoted and was responding to your argument that "every major character, and most of the side ones, do the exact same things on a consistent basis" as Starlight has done. Those examples were demonstrating that nearly all of the other characters would not be capable of doing the "exact same things" as Starlight has done. Starlight's biggest mistakes that I listed bring up specific issues that I don't think have been implicated in most other characters' actions in the show. And again, that's a point that I've seen people who both do and don't like Starlight make.

I also questioned, in responding to the same argument, whether other protagonist characters on the show have had "the same consistent pattern of controversial actions - with the same severity and within the same amount of appearances/screen time" as Starlight. I think the pattern of controversial actions within a limited number of major appearances is an important piece of the puzzle, and that has been part of the points I've been making in this topic. Other main characters in the show have certainly committed major offenses which were not taken as seriously as might be considered warranted, but I think many of those other characters have had a lot of other significant appearances in which to build goodwill, relatability, etc. By contrast, it seems to me that Starlight's biggest mistakes are a comparatively large and memorable part of her portrayal in the show post-reformation, and she's had comparatively fewer major appearances in which to exhibit qualities that those who strongly disagree with those mistakes might find compelling, positive, relatable, etc. And I think that situation can contribute to a net dislike of her as a character.

[RulesofRarity 493]

The consistent problem with Starlight is that when she does something bad, she usually needs another character to tell her that she what she did was bad. She rarely comes to the conclusion that what she did was wrong by herself. 

1. She used her magic to force Big Mac to speak and then needed AJ to glare at her a few times before she changed him back, all while Starlight attempted to justify what she did “I can’t be friends with a pony who doesn’t talk”. 

2. In Every Little Thing She Does, Starlight mind controls the Mane 5, completely violating them and showing absolutely no concern towards them until Twilight tells her to apologise up to that point her biggest concern had been why the spell had failed and not how she harmed her “friends”. 

 And the situation in Lesson Zero is completely different, yes it’s true that Twilight used her magic on three children but once she saw the fighting was getting out of hand, she tried to separate them from the doll. Compare that to Starlight in ELTSD who didn’t even try to fix the situation even when it got out of hand. Lastly, until any of the Mane 6 almost destroy the world and get away with it consequence free, Starlight will always have them beat in that regard. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by RulesofRarity

[Lucartini 104]

On 1/19/2018 at 5:02 AM, Lambdadelta said:

People just try too hard to apply human standards to pony standards and they become obsessive to see their own reality applying in this over-optimistic utopia where anypony can have a chance to earn forgiveness for their mistakes. Starlight realized her mistakes then make amend for it and she just get better in S7, even Thorax called out her bullshit, that's great right?! Starlight is a flawed character, making mistakes and learning is what she is, people can make mistakes over time and their learning progression can be different, dont expect she 'get over it' in one episode, she's not a robot, fixing people is not easy. Ponies are too forgiving? We already knew that, its the show nature, i expected some realism just as much as people do but I accept the show's optimism (dont worry guys, they still banish/kill some few terrible bad guys of the show, just pretend Sombra comic didnt exist).

Random: Why i didnt see any 'Should Tempest be punished for her crime against her own kind' thread? 

Because we didn't see Tempest get forgiven and keep messing up and mind controlling the only ponies that will ever care about her

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

4 hours ago, Lucartini said:

Because we didn't see Tempest get forgiven and keep messing up and mind controlling the only ponies that will ever care about her

Like i said above, dont expect Starlight suddenly become a 100% nice pony in the next few episodes like some certain rushed reformed villains who suddenly become nice guys instantly for the sake of the show's restraint. Starlight in ELTSD is her best example of how her bad habits wont go away easily and thanks god, she learned how not to use magics for your bidding (she finally make tea cakes by recipes Pinkie gave her and not by instant magic). Messing up and learning are what make Starlight Glimmer, she was a messed up invididual for sure, that why she need friendship to fix her.

Invite your invaders who enslaved you to your party in the same day is very... interesting, no, no, i am not talking about Tempest, her heroic actions are enough but Storm King soldiers?! 

Some people already debated about Starlight being forgiven even before ELTSD happened, her topics are always controversial until this day. I dont see any thread debate about Tempest and her crime against her own kind,  she only becomes good because she get her ass-kicked by a irony that her philosophy is right all along: you shouldnt trust people and being saved by Twilight. When Starlight saw the wasteland, she already know she fucked up and she finally gave up herself after a bit of denial, why some people overlooked that and keep attacking her character until they got more ammunition that called ELTSD?! I dont try to compare who is the worst but the way people treat those 2 events are more like 1 vs 100. 

Random: if it was Discord, i expected some 'its ok because he's Discord I wonder if Larson's darker route of Make New Friend but keep Discord turned out to be official, what people reactions to that?! I will never know.

[Thrond 3,263]

7 hours ago, RulesofRarity said:

The consistent problem with Starlight is that when she does something bad, she usually needs another character to tell her that she what she did was bad. She rarely comes to the conclusion that what she did was wrong by herself. 

1. She used her magic to force Big Mac to speak and then needed AJ to glare at her a few times before she changed him back, all while Starlight attempted to justify what she did “I can’t be friends with a pony who doesn’t talk”. 

2. In Every Little Thing She Does, Starlight mind controls the Mane 5, completely violating them and showing absolutely no concern towards them until Twilight tells her to apologise up to that point her biggest concern had been why the spell had failed and not how she harmed her “friends”. 

 And the situation in Lesson Zero is completely different, yes it’s true that Twilight used her magic on three children but once she saw the fighting was getting out of hand, she tried to separate them from the doll. Compare that to Starlight in ELTSD who didn’t even try to fix the situation even when it got out of hand. Lastly, until any of the Mane 6 almost destroy the world and get away with it consequence free, Starlight will always have them beat in that regard. 

Rainbow Dash has a tendency to do bad things and need to be told they're wrong, but 1. she also has a lot of episodes where she doesn't do bad things, which Starlight doesn't have many of; and 2. very little of what Rainbow Dash has done has been as dangerous or distressing as what Starlight does almost every time she shows up. Both characters, as well as many others, demonstrate a consistent inability to understand the consequences of their actions, but the writers are (perhaps intentionally) doubling down on that as an essential part of Starlight's personality, whereas it's just an annoying trend for Rainbow Dash which only shows up in the occasional weak episode. 

6 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

Like i said above, dont expect Starlight suddenly become a 100% nice pony in the next few episodes like some certain rushed reformed villains who suddenly become nice guys instantly for the sake of the show's restraint. Starlight in ELTSD is her best example of how her bad habits wont go away easily and thanks god, she learned how not to use magics for your bidding (she finally make tea cakes by recipes Pinkie gave her and not by instant magic). Messing up and learning are what make Starlight Glimmer, she was a messed up invididual for sure, that why she need friendship to fix her.

I think this is a very complex subject which requires either a more careful approach than the generally upbeat one the show has taken, or a very abbreviated approach which conveys the idea without expecting us to sympathize with and relate to a pony who consistently does awful things, consistently needs to be told they're awful, and yet usually isn't treated with any sort of caution or irritation by most of the people around her. In either case I'd still find her boring. That's why "To Where and Back Again" is her best episode: because she's consistently afraid of herself, and proves that she can behave well without Twilight's supervision. 

12 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

if it was Discord, i expected some 'its ok because he's Discord

For the most part, the show only really expects us to sympathize with and relate to Discord as an unexpected late-episode twist. It recognizes that he's the worst.