How long is 100 moons? And with it, how long since the first episode?

[BalanceBrony 259]

Declen, on 25 Nov 2013 - 8:13 PM, said:

 

1. As Dr. House once sayd "Feel fre to exclude any simptomes that don't fit in your diagnosis".

2. The whole situation in "Aplejack season" and "Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000" accured exactly because there are no other Apples in Ponywille. Aplejack expicitly stated they all were from all over Equestria.

 

Yes it does. Then Aple famyly reunion occures every 2 years, not 10 years or 100 days.

And then we don't have to skip Reunion in the first episode (which is wrong) or assume that chronological order of episodes os totally fraked up (which is just crippy).

 

There is no logic in there.

How does a "moon" being a week make sense? We hear that Fluttershy has her appointment with Rarity once a week, not once a moon. Throughout the show, up until "Lesson Zero," Twilight must write a letter once a week, not once a moon. There are more cases besides. Why would they use "moon" at all, when they can simply use the more easily understood term "week?" If they mean a week, they say a week. It doesn't make sense that there would be an ambiguous, extra word to refer to a week in random, unnecessary cases. They also use the terms year and day. The term they don't use is month. So where is this intermediate unit of time? It's there, but goes by a different name- a moon. This is the only one that makes sense, because the other units of time all exist in Equestrian Reckoning. The month is the only thing that seems to be missing.

 

And every two years? You're saying that DOESN'T contradict the chronology of the show? I would say quite the opposite. We know for an absolute fact that the space of time between Season 1 Episode 1 and Season 4 Episode 1 is precisely 1 year. That would mean 2 reunions in one year, if we are assuming the first one counts. So, either the first one doesn't count, or you're wrong. Either way, my argument regarding the reunion is proven by the known fact that there is exactly one year between S1E1 and S4E1.

 

And check out this post for my full arguments. They cover more thoroughly many of the points you two have made. http://balancebrony.tumblr.com/post/68027902755/what-is-time-like-in-equestria

Edited November 26, 2013 by BalanceBrony

[Declen 118]

We know for an absolute fact that the space of time between Season 1 Episode 1 and Season 4 Episode 1 is precisely 1 year.

You know, that's funny, how you ignore a direct statement from Applejack but insist on somethig never stated directly being "absolute fact".

 

Also, your assumption, that 100 moons = exactly 10 years is what doesn't make sence.

If it'd be so, why count moons, why not years directly? That would be easier, wouldn't it?

 

 

So where is this intermediate unit of time? It's there, but goes by a different name- a moon.

Before you state somthing - better check first if it's true.

I can proove they used word "month" several times throughout the series.

Do you have any proof at all that the word "moon" was used as time measure before "Aplle Family Reunion"?

Edited November 26, 2013 by Declen

[Zygen 6,065]

Well, According to the latest episode we atleast know according to Celestia that we can assume its been a year since the first episode.

 

However, that brings up more questions almost then answers, because then that messes up alot of things in how the episodes flow chronologically and still make sense in that time span.

 

Then theres of course the 100 moons lining up, and raising the question if Equestria even follows our same time system, for all we know there could be like 12 hours in a day and like 600 days in a year or something crazy, its never really stated and probably won't be, and the new premier s4 episode brings up almost as many questions as it does answers.

 

So i'm pretty clueless frankly ;p.

[BalanceBrony 259]

You know, that's funny, how you ignore a direct statement from Applejack but insist on somethig never stated directly being "absolute fact".

 

Also, your assumption, that 100 moons = exactly 10 years is what doesn't make sence.

If it'd be so, why count moons, why not years directly? That would be easier, wouldn't it?

 

 

Before you state somthing - better check first if it's true.

I can proove they used word "month" several times throughout the series.

Do you have any proof at all that the word "moon" was used as time measure before "Aplle Family Reunion"?

I can think of one episode where month was used, and it was in "Winter Wrap-Up." RD uses the word month. Can provide other occasions please?

 

Moon is used in 3 separate cases- Apple Family Reunion, Equestria Girls, and Princess Twilight Sparkle. Given a 3:1 ratio of moon to month, with "month" being in a song, I would consider the moon to be more valid. Although you are correct. As far as I remember, Apple Family Reunion was the first use of the word "moon." Month is only said once as far as I remember, and in a song at that.

 

And once again. No matter what way you slice it, if you count the "reunion" from episode one as official, the entire chronology of the show collapses.

----------------------------------------

 

 

Here is my full argument. I was hoping you would take the initiative and just follow the link, but I guess not:

 

So, recently I was bumming around here, and there was just a quick query which somepony posted. They were asking simply “How long is 100 Moons?”

 

At first, I thought it would be very simple to answer. In any media which I’ve read where animals are the main characters, “moon” has always been the standard measurement of time. In Watership Down, Warriors, The Sight, and MLP, “moon” has been the unit of time, because non-humans would obviously stick to things more easily observable than the orbital period of the Earth around the sun. Standardly, a “moon,” or Lunar Month, is the length of time form one New Moon to the next. It is usually around 28-29 days, but it varies.

 

So, I did the multiplication, and calculated 100 moons as roughly 2,900 Civil Days, or 8 Solar Years. But then it occurred to me. I was using values from our Universe, from our solar system, and our Earth. Not every moon or planet orbits at the same rate. And in fact, Equestria’s sun and moon don’t even orbit in the traditional sense. They do not move of their own accord- the Celestial Sisters move them.

 

And that leaves an interesting idea to be considered. How is time measured in Equestria? How does astronomy even work there? With a geocentric model of the solar system where things don’t move on their own, everything we know about planetary dynamics ceases to apply. And this leaves us viewers at a loss. We are now dealing with a system that functions completely differently from anything we know. So, we need to try and use only in-show evidence to make a determination as to how Equestria functions as a natural system.

 

We do have some safe assumptions we can make. The Equestrian solar system is geocentric, with the sun and moon going around the planet (shall we call it Equus?). Equus’ axis of rotation must be slanted with respect to the orbit of the sun and the moon, because otherwise there would not be a polar ice cap. Days do vary in length as the year progresses, since there is a longest day of the year (The Summer Sun Celebration). There is some level of a natural progression of the seasons, since leaves turn colour on their own, implying that winter would come, ponies or no. The ponies simply make the transition between seasons move quicker. So in most every respect, Equus seems very much like Earth.

 

For our purposes, the assumptions above will be what we work with. As a system, we cannot apply logic to Equus, or the question here, if we bring up the notion of the Celestial Sisters raising the sun and moon. For our purposes, we need to assume here that the sisters move not the bodies themselves, but the planet Equus, because it just doesn’t work if we have them pushing the bodies in an orbit around Equus. There’s a reason the Geocentric model failed.

 

If the we accepted that the sun were pushed around Equus, and not Equus around the sun, a year would be the same length as a day, and seasons wouldn’t exist. We will pretend that somehow Equus is in a geocentric system, and somehow it acts as if it is in heliocentric system, because this is what we see based on the observations we made above.

 

That being said, let’s move on to the bigger issue here. Time. How does it work in Equestria? We know that the ponies measure time in moons. How long is a moon? Well, we can’t tell based strictly on information in Equestria, since, as we see above, our logic does not apply to it. So, let us turn to the human world. Yes… we are consulting Equestria Girls. *yay*

 

In EQG, the mirror opens every 30 moons, Equestria time. 30 moons in Equestria is equal to roughly 3 years in the human world. We know this because Sunset Shimmer has spent 3 years in high school, and a high school uses the solar calendar. The human world, we can assume, functions exactly as our world does. There is no magical, physics-defying nonsense. So we know that 3 years in EQG (or our world)= 30 moons in Equestria.

 

Now we can do simple math to find out the length of an Equestrian Moon in our time. Get Derpy if you’re nervous.

 

30 moons in equestria = 3 earth years. Divide the whole thing by 3 to find out how many Equestrian Moons are in 1 Earth Year, and the answer is 10:1. Every 10 moons in Equestria is 1 Earth year (EY). Now, let’s do another step to find out how many earth days are in 1 Equestria Moon (EM).

One Earth Year is 365.24 Earth Days (ED). So, 365.24 ED= 10 EM. If we divide the whole thing by 10, we get 1 Equestrian Moon is equal to 36.524 Earth Days.

 

So, now we have something to work with! Using this information, we can get a scale of how time flows in Equestria. The moon orbits Equus at a slightly slower rate than our moon orbits us (remember, Equus acts like it is in a heliocentric model, even if it isn’t.) So, to answer the person’s question on the forums. 100 Equestrian Moons is equal to 3652.4 Earth Days, so 10 years.

[Declen 118]

 

 

Can provide other occasions please?

You could look for it youself, BTW, but OK.

 

 

1. Griffon the Brush Off

Applejack: Spittin' snakes. Hah, somepony pulled that prank on me last month.

 

2. Look Before You Sleep

Twilight Sparkle: So, who's up for another slumber party tomorrow night? Ugh. How about a week from Thursday? Oh, how about two weeks from Saturday? A month from now?

 

3. Bridle Gossip.

Rainbow Dash: Well... Once a month, she comes into Ponyville.

 

4. Sweet and Elite

Turnip Truck: Rarity! Hey, Rarity! Whoo! It's me, Hayseed Turnip Truck! We met at the big hoedown in Ponyville last month?

 

5. Secret of my Excess.

Spike: This little beauty is my birthday present to myself! It's a fire ruby! I've been aging it for months, and it's almost ripe!

 

6. Baby Cakes.

Pinkie Pie: I can't believe you're already a month old

 

7. Read It and Weep.

Rainbow Dash: Few days? Might as well be a few months, or a few years!

 

8. It's about time.

Twilight Sparkle: No, the problem is I just finished planning my schedule for the month, but I forgot to leave time to plan for next month!

 

9. Dragon Quest

Spike: No, I haven't sucked my claw in months!

 

10. MMMystery on the Friendship Express.

Mr. Cake: Yes, it took months of planning and testing.

 

11. A Canterlot Wedding 1

Lucky Clover: I've already paid for three this month!

 

And of course " Three months of winter coolness And awesome holidays."

 

 

 

And also in "Ticket Master" Spike reads the invitation:

Hear ye, hear ye. Her Grand Royal Highness, Princess Celestia of Equestria, is pleased to announce The Grand Galloping Gala to be held in the magnificent capital city of Canterlot, on the 21st day of, eh, yadda yadda yadda, cordially extends an invitation to Twilight Sparkle plus one guest.

Which is not a use of the word "month" but a suggestion, that ponies have calendar similar to ours.

 

Résumé: ponies use word "month" whole the time, where the word "moon" first used in "Apple Family Reunion" by Granny Smith all of a sudden.

 

And what to its use in EqG, I only can repeat myself: EqG is non-canon.

[RWB2 17]

"21st day of"

 

the Seventh moon of the year...

 

 

Doesn't imply months over moon, sorry.

[BalanceBrony 259]

You could look for it youself, BTW, but OK.

 

 

1. Griffon the Brush Off

Applejack: Spittin' snakes. Hah, somepony pulled that prank on me last month.

 

2. Look Before You Sleep

Twilight Sparkle: So, who's up for another slumber party tomorrow night? Ugh. How about a week from Thursday? Oh, how about two weeks from Saturday? A month from now?

 

3. Bridle Gossip.

Rainbow Dash: Well... Once a month, she comes into Ponyville.

 

4. Sweet and Elite

Turnip Truck: Rarity! Hey, Rarity! Whoo! It's me, Hayseed Turnip Truck! We met at the big hoedown in Ponyville last month?

 

5. Secret of my Excess.

Spike: This little beauty is my birthday present to myself! It's a fire ruby! I've been aging it for months, and it's almost ripe!

 

6. Baby Cakes.

Pinkie Pie: I can't believe you're already a month old

 

7. Read It and Weep.

Rainbow Dash: Few days? Might as well be a few months, or a few years!

 

8. It's about time.

Twilight Sparkle: No, the problem is I just finished planning my schedule for the month, but I forgot to leave time to plan for next month!

 

9. Dragon Quest

Spike: No, I haven't sucked my claw in months!

 

10. MMMystery on the Friendship Express.

Mr. Cake: Yes, it took months of planning and testing.

 

11. A Canterlot Wedding 1

Lucky Clover: I've already paid for three this month!

 

And of course " Three months of winter coolness And awesome holidays."

 

 

 

And also in "Ticket Master" Spike reads the invitation:

Hear ye, hear ye. Her Grand Royal Highness, Princess Celestia of Equestria, is pleased to announce The Grand Galloping Gala to be held in the magnificent capital city of Canterlot, on the 21st day of, eh, yadda yadda yadda, cordially extends an invitation to Twilight Sparkle plus one guest.

Which is not a use of the word "month" but a suggestion, that ponies have calendar similar to ours.

 

Résumé: ponies use word "month" whole the time, where the word "moon" first used in "Apple Family Reunion" by Granny Smith all of a sudden.

 

And what to its use in EqG, I only can repeat myself: EqG is non-canon.

 

Thanks. But that kind of stinks. That means, really, we can't get anywhere until we have an official statement from the writers. So we can't determine what a "moon" means based on comparing with other statements, because week, day, month, and year have all been used on the show. So once again, I turn to my math, and logic, which apply perfectly (except for the family reunion which, as I have repeatedly stated screws up the timeline no matter what, and should therefore be discounted. You do not change the whole series to fit one oversight. You dismiss the oversight. The only way any logic could apply, is if we write off the first reunion as an inconsistency.)

[Declen 118]

I turn to my math, and logic, which apply perfectly

Sorry, man, but you just flatter yourself.

 

 

he only way any logic could apply, is if we write off the first reunion as an inconsistency.

Not this again...

Just do the fact checking already.

Three simple questions for you:

1. How many ponies were at first AFR?

2. How many were at second?

3. How many attend usually?

You can easily find answers on all three questions.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Declen

[GreyScholar 1,584]

Look why are we making this complicated? A moon cycle is around a mouth, a little under 30 days, as such why is it so hard to accept that a mouth is approximately equal (≈) to a moon. The math given above closely follows this with a little over 36 days equaling a moon, just having it be around 6-7 days longer.

Edited November 26, 2013 by EquestrianScholar

[BalanceBrony 259]

Sorry, man, but you just flatter yourself.

 

 

Not this again...

Just do the fact checking already.

Three simple questions for you:

1. How many ponies were at first AFR?

2. How many were at second?

3. How many attend usually?

You can easily find answers on all three questions.

*sigh* You keep forgetting. If we accept that both reunions count it would mean that there are two reunions in ONE year? So every apple in Equestria gets together twice a year?

 

Further, you are ignoring the fact that the episodes in question inherently contradict each other. In Episode 1, AJ claims that the Family Reunion just ended, yet in "Apple Family Reunion," we get the statement that this is Apple Bloom's first reunion. So which is correct? Since you can't make a determination, the only logical thing to do is ignore contradictory statements. You insist on using this point, but any standards of argumentation and refutation through logic would all agree that contradictory statements are both invalid if neither can be proven.

 

Regarding my math- did you read my calculations? They work for every other dispute of time on the show, except for the Apple Family Reunion which, as I keep trying to explain, is a null argument.

Look why are we making this complicated? A moon cycle is around a mouth, a little under 30 days, as such why is it so hard to accept that a mouth is approximately equal (≈) to a moon. The math given above closely follows this with a little over 36 days equaling a moon, just having it be around 6-7 days longer.

Thank you for your support. Declan's only point which could refute my math is his use of the Apple Family Reunion as a gauge of time, but as I keep trying to explain, the series contradicts itself regarding the family reunion, so it can't be considered a valid measurement.

[Declen 118]

 

 

You keep forgetting. If we accept that both reunions count it would mean that there are two reunions in ONE year? So every apple in Equestria gets together twice a year?

No. I keep telling you, that "ONE year" is not a fact. It was never stated directly.

 

did you read my calculations?

Yes. And no, they are not a masterpiece of logic.

[BalanceBrony 259]

No. I keep telling you, that "ONE year" is not a fact. It was never stated directly.

 

Yes. And no, they are not a masterpiece of logic.

 

The Summer Sun Celebration is a yearly occurrence. There is only 1 per year. And it is on the longest day of each year, meaning it would be around the same time every year. Occam's Razor would dictate that we should treat Equestria as a standard system, and not assume that for some reason the solstices work differently there.

 

And I love how you completely ignore my point about the inherent contradiction in the statement which you are using to argue, making it null.

 

You are masterful at selectively arguing sir.

 

And no, they aren't masterpieces of logic, because it is very simple math which anypony would understand.

Edited November 26, 2013 by BalanceBrony

[GreyScholar 1,584]

Also it is not like they would gloss over such an important event, keeping in mind how important it was the first time around in the season 1 pilot and when Twilight went down memory lane talking about her cutiemark.  If there was other Summer Sun Celebrations they would have been mentioned, so logically there was only been two Summer Sun Celebrations so far, thus around a years time.

Edited November 26, 2013 by EquestrianScholar

[Declen 118]

 

 

Occam's Razor would dictate that we should treat Equestria as a standard system

ORLY?

Occam's Razor dictates to find the simplest explonation for all facts.

 

 

ignore my point about the inherent contradiction in the statement which you are using to argue, making it null.

Because I don't see any "inherent contradiction". So, you can use bold as much as you want - it doesn't make your argument stronger.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

ORLY?

Occam's Razor dictates to find the simplest explonation for all facts.

 

Look are you willing to agree that the Summer Sun Celebration is the Summer Solstice? As it is stated to be the longest day of the year, which happens once a year.

[Declen 118]

 

 

Look are you willing to agree that the Summer Sun Celebration is the Summer Solstice?

You have stated the obvious. Your point being?

[BalanceBrony 259]

ORLY?

Occam's Razor dictates to find the simplest explonation for all facts.

 

 

Because I don't see any "inherent contradiction". So, you can use bold as much as you want - it doesn't make your argument stronger.

 

The inherent contradiction is that in S1E1, AJ claims that it is a family reunion, but in "Apple Family Reunion," we have the statement that it is Apple Bloom's first reunion. These two statements are contradictory, so they cancel out.

You have stated the obvious. Your point being?

The point there is that one year has passed since S1E1. The Summer Sun Celebrations make it a FACT that one year has passed, which you state is not the case.

Edited November 26, 2013 by BalanceBrony

[GreyScholar 1,584]

You have stated the obvious. Your point being?

Okay then now wouldn't you say the Summer Sun Celebration is a very important event? As it has been stated to be a day of celebration and for one pony, Twilight Sparkle, what sent her on her journey of learning magic.

 

Do you honestly think they would skip over such an event? As such when princess Celestia states this is the first Summer Sun Celebration she has looked forward to, and the fact the Mane Six are treating it as an anniversary of when they first became friends... it is most logical to actually treat the beginning of Season 4 as being the one year mark.

[Declen 118]

 

 

The point there is that one year has passed since S1E1

I patiently wait for the proof to that.

And no. Her Highness never said that current SSC was the first since the return of NM.

 

 

when princess Celestia states this is the first Summer Sun Celebration she has looked forward to

She may mean that it is the first SSC Luna participates in.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

She may mean that it is the first SSC Luna participates in.

All things considered: the basic feel of the episode, what is said by the characters, the seriousness of many parts of it... you cannot say logically that the writers mean anything other then it making one year has gone by.

Now perhaps they were in error for doing so, keeping in mind everything that has happened and the complexity of making a timeline, but the intention I feel is clear what they meant.

[BalanceBrony 259]

I patiently wait for the proof to that.

And no. Her Highness never said that current SSC was the first since the return of NM.

 

 

She may mean that it is the first SSC Luna participates in.

 

Oh my Guthix. Are you serious?

 

It is simple. There is ONE Summer Solstice per year, at around the same time every year. Hence, there is one year between two Summer Solstices- so one year between the Summer Solstice in season 1 and the Summer Solstice in season 4.

 

And you ignore my point about the reunion again.

Edited November 26, 2013 by BalanceBrony

[Declen 118]

t is simple. There is ONE Summer Solstice per year, at around the same time every year. Hence, there is one year between two Summer Solstices- so one year between the Summer Solstice in season 1 and the Summer Solstice in season 4.

  Do you really think you can convince me by repeating some obvious things?

 

 

And you ignore my point about the reunion again.

Have you even tried to find the answers on that three cuestions?

I don't think so.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Declen

[BalanceBrony 259]

  Do you really think you can convince me by repeating some obvious things?

 

 

Have you even tried to find the answers on that three cuestions?

I don't think so.

YES they are obvious! They obviously show that one year has passed since the start of Season 1. Which you said was wrong. Would you not be convinced by obvious logic?

 

And why didn't I answer the questions? Because they are moot, irrelevant, and unnecessary. They do not change the fact that the whole reunion argument is null. I know that there were two reunions. But what I am trying to get through to you is that, in the discussion of moons the reunions are an irrelevant, and completely null argument, because they contradict each other. They are a bubbling and hideous inconsistency in the plot. The statements made in each episode completely go against what the other says. As such, they are moot, since they contradict each other.

[Declen 118]

They obviously show that one year has passed since the start of Season 1.

No, they don't.

And as I sayd before: feel free to exclude any facts that prevent you from astonishing us with your splended arithmetical skills.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Declen

[GreyScholar 1,584]

No, they don't.

And as I sayd before: feel free to exclude any facts that prevent you from astonishing us with your splended arithmetical skills.

The fact is though it was clearly stated in the episode Apple Family Reunion, that it was Applebloom's first such reunion. Meaning the reunion in the first episode does not count, it was something else. Unless you want to going over possible continuity errors that have cropped up over time.