Is Starswirl the REAL master manipulator and puppeteer?

[ManaMinori 4,149]

Let's consider it, for a sec. From the start, Celestia's been shown to bee the master manipulator, setting up Twilight and her friends to complete all these lessons and figure things out for themselves for them to grow and learn. But is it really Celestia that's doing this? Looking at the Journal of the Two Sisters, Starswirl was around before Celestia and Luna became princesses. HE appointed them princesses, in fact. And he was old enough, at the time, to have Clover the Clever as an apprentice. He knew about what Alicorns represented- the unification of the 3 pony races, to come to Celestia and Luna, to see them best fitting as rulers of Equestria. HE knew, even long before Celestia and Luna did, about the tree of harmony, as it was HE who told the alicorn sisters about the Everfree forest, and then led them there and showed them the tree, which was where they built their first castle. Prior to that, Celestia said that she had read about the Tree of Harmony in books, but never thought it really existed- which credits Starswirl knowing more than her, earlier than her, and likely on how the Elements work as well, since the books she'd read them in detail how powerful the elements are, and what they represent

 

Also, it's no surprise that his knowledge would surpass both Celestia and Luna's own; on things both past and present. Once again, in the Journal of the Two Sisters, Celestia was invited to Starswirl's library, and was in shock on all the information he had available, ranging from ancient scrolls to books on magic that the sisters had never even read before. It's very likely that Starswirl would have learned and studied most the content in his library since then, and have all 4 hooves up on Celestia, as far as magical prowess and knowledge, at that point in time. (and likely, Clover the Clever, as well) Tomes upon tomes of things that Celestia had yet to study, even in all her years. Unicorns, apparently, even had their own ways to practice Alicorn magic, based off their own theories, so again, Starswirl could've been using this long ahead of time.

 

Not to mention his being the creator of thousands of spells, and mastering time-travel, on top of it. He far exceeds Celestia, in spite of her helping him with his time travel spell methematics. Starswirl has been into the future, and the past, and is shown to be secretive about what he sees in the future, for Equestria, even when the royal sisters ask. He KNOWS. He KNEW what the star, sun, and moon on the tree of Harmony meant, when Celestia and Luna were still in the dark about who the 3 marks belonged to (they were still blank flanks, at the time, so they didn't know the sun and moon symbols were theirs). He KNEW that there would be troubled times ahead for Equestria. He's not afraid to venture across time and space, though he doesn't get too involved with the ponies from alt timelines, unlike Celestia- * (see IDW's “Reflections” arc). Who's to to say that he's not the one behind Celestia's “visions” of the future, as seen in “Twilight's Kingdom”? Who's to say he's not manipulating Celestia to set things up for twilight and friends? Who's to say he's not manipulating others as well? (coughZecoracough) (why else would she just so happen to have that potion that responded to Alicorn magic, handy, at the precise right time?)

[The Crimson Cross 7,533]

Seems like an interesting theory.

I can't argue that Starswirl has had some serious foreshadowing, and those are some pretty big coincidences.

Me personally, thought he was just an old legend. Indeed he's a very powerful Wizard, but I'm under the impression he's only going to show up when a serious tragedy befalls Equestria.. As if Tirek wasn't enough..

 

Or..Maybe Twilight is Starswirl the bearded in the future..? Who knows?

[Honsou 399]

Interesting point. Maybe Starswirl's journey through time showed him the effects of an undivided Equestria without the Alicorn sisters, and possibly the destruction of ponykind? I mean, we can all say he manipulated Celestia, which we all know he did, but typically when someone is manipulating another, it is for personal gain. You have to ask yourself, what gain would Starswirl get by having the Alicorn's ascend to the throne? What benefit does Celestia get from leading Twilight down the path to ascension as an Alicorn? I mean yes, it is very deceitful of them, but it's kind of like what our parents do to us when they let us do something to learn a lesson, or when you ask them something and they tell you to look it up, or give you directions to the library.

[Jangocoolguy 433]

DUN-DUN-DUUUUHHHHNNNNN!!! Edited April 14, 2015 by Jangobadass

[guest243535531ty43 219]

@@Nightmare Muffin, very interesting idea. I really need to get that Journal of the Two Sisters whenever I can.

 

I don't doubt that Starswirl is one of the most intelligent unicorns out there and that his prowess in magic is likely unrivaled past and present (though Twilight will likely become a greater force because of her tremendous potential that I believe is still vastly unlocked--she was able to handle the magic of three other alicorns after all). He likely would now the signs foretelling the arrival of six ponies who would take up the Elements of Harmony through his studies, much like how Twilight knew of Nightmare Moon's coming before (albeit shortly before) her arrival.

 

What I doubt, however, is that he would use his time-travelling spells so recklessly. The comic you reference shows that Starswirl is calculating and wise, especially in regards to things that could affect reality and the lives of many ponies. He didn't want Celestia to continue her alternative-universe jumping out of fear of ruining the realities of both worlds. Affecting the timeline of the universe you are in hasn't been established to form alternative universes or to just replace the events that would've occurred, but regardless, it can have a similar drastic and detrimental result. Starswirl seemed to only want to use this ability for the purpose of learning rather than to impose anything or make sure things go as he plans.

 

The comic also shows that Starswirl is not omniscient. Though he recognizes Luna's becoming "darker", he believes that Celestia and him can turn her around soon. Why he wouldn't also know of Tirek's rise to power during his lifetime until Scorpan's befriending of him and Tirek's future conquest is also problematic. Note that Princess Celestia and Luna did not know the Tree of Harmony would act in the way it did in the Season 4 opener due to its separation from the Elements for so long, meaning that Starswirl either did not know as well or did not tell them. In the Season 3 closer, his spell wasn't completed and the reason Celestia gave was that he didn't know about the true meaning of friendship. I could see Starswirl possibly foretelling that a unicorn in the future would create new magic and complete his spell, but to purposely not complete his spell while also knowing the solution to it from the future also creates a major conundrum. 

 

I figure Starswirl has prophesied certain things about the future, but hasn't directly shaped it. Indirectly pushing the Mane 6 to their destiny? I could see that, but likely through notifying Celestia of what he has foreseen.

 

Note that Celestia also has portending dreams as well as seen in the Season 4 closer. This would mean that Starswirl did not tell her everything and during his time jumps does not communicate with Celestia. I would find it very unwise to turn to somepony he doesn't know like Zecora as opposed to Celestia with whom he has a strong relationship. 

 

Why do you assume Celestia is leading Twilight to learn certain lessons? I don't doubt she knew Twilight making friends was important for the sake of Equestria but let's say Twilight failed at her task. It could have been possible for Celestia to retake the Elements to vanquish Nightmare Moon once more, right? I think Twilight's early friendship lessons came about just out of the interactions they had. Meaning, it wasn't really destined, but just things she learned because she is observant and because she was really eager to be around her friends. I don't think Celestia played an active role in making sure Twilight learned a certain lesson. It's more likely that she just wanted to make Twilight's bond stronger with her friends by giving her quality time with her friends in Ponyville for Twilight's sake (since I think Celestia cares fondly for Twilight) and for the sake of Equestria with the Elements, and perhaps because she knew from the prophesies of Starswirl or from her own prophetic abilities/intuition that Twilight had the prowess to ascend and become an alicorn. 

 

Also, Rainbow Dash's sonic rainboom is a sign of their friendship being destined. I doubt that anyone could have led RD to perform that trick leading them to get their cutie marks and thus leading them to the rest of their lives. The only one Starswirl could have influenced might have been Twilight, moreso indirectly than directly through his mentoring role with Celestia in the past, after she had received her cutie mark. 

 

It's much more likely that things are going the way they because that's how they are. A combination of destiny and free-will. Nopony pulling the strings, but perhaps using their political clout or magical prowess to push things in a way that has already been foreboded in the signs of old. Starswirl is likely more of a soothsayer who has notified only the one he trusts about the future, i.e. Celestia, and Celestia through her prominent role has ensured that the one in whom she saw great potential to wield the Element of Magic was trained. I think it's also very likely that Celestia originally believed Sunset Shimmer to be the one to uphold the role of the Element of Magic before her ultimate betrayal. 

[Blackshirt Brony 415]

In Magical Mystery Cure, Celestia explains that "even a great unicorn like Starswirl the Bearded" couldn't have solved the cutie mark predicament, because he didn't "understand the magic of friendship" like Twilight does.

 

In the MLP universe, "friendship" is a legitimate force of nature that apparently allows one to shoot lasers from their face. As we saw in Twilight's battle with Tirek, it seemingly doesn't matter how much power you have. If you don't have any friends, you're still impotent.

 

All throughout the first few seasons, Twilight speaks of Starswirl with great reverence, while it is clear that the "manipulator" Princess Celestia is encouraging her to exceed what Starswirl was capable of. This implies that whatever Starswirl's influence may have been, he is either dead or missing and is no longer seen as a figure of much importance by the alicorn elite.

 

My personal theory is that the whole situation was engineered by Celestia, and that upon seeing Twilight's potential as a child, believed she saw something in Twilight that no one else did. In this sense, she is the prime manipulator/orchestrator and is effectively training Twilight from a very young age to take Starswirl's place in Equestria and finish his work.

 

Also, where is it mentioned that the alicorns were appointed by Starswirl?

[baltosaa 86]

That's a very interesting theory...

 

It'd be awesome if this turned out to be true, and that everything that's happened/will happen has been part of Starswirl's plan.

[Honsou 399]

I would love to see an episode about Star Swirl and Celestia, maybe a a short movie about the journal of the two sisters?

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,164]

That's an interesting theory, and I can certainly see some backing behind it!

 

However I'm not sure if that really lends itself to being a manipulator or what-not; if you will. To me it just shows that Starswirl, while having great foresight, was also very intelligent, patient, and careful, and these same qualities can be applied to Celestia herself.

 

I could be wrong myself; of course.

[ManaMinori 4,149]

with season 5 in full swing and having the mane 6 travel to new areas, i wouldn't be surprised if they (coughTwilightcough) comes across something relating to Starswirl, that she hadn't known before, and this theory of mine proves true. Starswirl's just too involved in too many things not to be the manipulator.

[cider float 2,539]

I do like seeing Starswirled the Bearded as some unknown but knowledgeable entity that leaves his findings in books and hopefully more in ancient texts and artifacts that Twilight will come across later off my headcanon. But calling him a manipulator I don't know. He is obviously very intelligent and has made a lot of accomplishments, the Elements of Harmony is probably something he studied most of and wrote notes on them and made it so Celestia and Twilight didn't have to spend years researching it and they just had to fit in the last pieces of the puzzle for it. And it was Twilight that figured the complete meaning of the Elements of Harmony and such. No doubt he will make an appearance in the show but I can't see the part where he is behind all this. There should be a hint every now and then.

[ManaMinori 4,149]

I do like seeing Starswirled the Bearded as some unknown but knowledgeable entity that leaves his findings in books and hopefully more in ancient texts and artifacts that Twilight will come across later off my headcanon. But calling him a manipulator I don't know. He is obviously very intelligent and has made a lot of accomplishments, the Elements of Harmony is probably something he studied most of and wrote notes on them and made it so Celestia and Twilight didn't have to spend years researching it and they just had to fit in the last pieces of the puzzle for it. And it was Twilight that figured the complete meaning of the Elements of Harmony and such. No doubt he will make an appearance in the show but I can't see the part where he is behind all this. There should be a hint every now and then.

while it may be true that it was Twi who figured out the last piece of the puzzle, what I'm saying is that even before Twi's time, he knew about her and how she'd do just that with the elements, bringing them all together and unlocking/ being the sixth.

from the journal of the Two Sisters:

 

Dear Diary, whenever Star Swirl travels in time, he is very careful not to tell us anything about our future. Though i can see in his eyes that there may be troubled times ahead for Equestria. I'm just so glad that we have the Tree of Harmony to give us strength. More and More, those three markings of the sun, the moon, and the star draw me in and make me feel like there is something special about them. When I said this again to Star Swirl, he got  a little sparkle in his eye. For once he couldn't hide it. Those signs are important for Luna's and my future!

Note: this was before Celly and Luna got their cutie marks, but after they were shown the Tree of Harmony by Starswirl, and while Starswirl himself was teaching them how to raise the sun and moon. There's also mention of him working on that spell that we saw in Magical Mystery Cure, before his time travel spell, so it's very likely that once he did start time-traveling, he encountered Twilight, seeing how she had connected with the elements, he also set things up for her in the future to train and test her, once Celestia was at the point where she was no longer Twi's mentor, past the alicorn ascension. This is a pony who set things up for the princesses, themselves, from picking them out of other alicorns to rule Equestria, teaching them to raise celestial bodies, introducing them to the Tree of Harmony, passing down all his knowledge of spells and such to them, and more. I find highly unlikely that he's not pulling the strings with Twilight (or even cadance) from the shadows.

[cider float 2,539]

I think it comes down to if the writers in the MLP show decides to use the material from the MLP comic. The MLP comic being canon is another debate. Seeing as the comics put into details that weren't shown in the show, has any past comic issues shown things that were to come that did happen in the show later on?

[ManaMinori 4,149]

I think it comes down to if the writers in the MLP show decides to use the material from the MLP comic. The MLP comic being canon is another debate. Seeing as the comics put into details that weren't shown in the show, has any past comic issues shown things that were to come that did happen in the show later on?

off the top of my head, one of the earlier comics did show Babs getting involved with Rarity, and the things they did had her having a run in with a hair stylist, and later, in Bloom and Gloom's episode, those events and realization of was what gave Babs her cutie mark, which she wrote about in the letter to Apple Bloom, if that counts for anything.

[cider float 2,539]

From what I got the time traveling spell is seen in the show in the episode "It's About Time" which was found in the Starswirl the Bearded wing of the Canterlot castle.

 

 

According to the show Twilight can travel in time but be there for a short period of time.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

with season 5 in full swing and having the mane 6 travel to new areas, i wouldn't be surprised if they (coughTwilightcough) comes across something relating to Starswirl, that she hadn't known before, and this theory of mine proves true. Starswirl's just too involved in too many things not to be the manipulator.

 

Or just a prominent historical figure.

 

People can have long lasting legacies, that doesn't make them omnipotent.

[ManaMinori 4,149]

Or just a prominent historical figure.

 

People can have long lasting legacies, that doesn't make them omnipotent.

never said he was, though. You can be a master manipulator without being omnipotent.

(and on the subject of omnipotence, really? Starswirl's pretty darn close, if not fully. We hardly know enough about him to assume whether he is or isn't, fully)