Could Pegasi experience enough G-Force to knock them unconscious while they are flying with wings?

[Unity 332]

I know that a big danger of flying an airplane for a Human is that sometimes blood can rush to your legs and not get to the brain, thus knocking you out for a few seconds which can prove deadly.

This mostly happens while doing sharp turns or rolls which the WonderBolts are seen doing a lot of.

Would it be possible for them to Experience enough G-force to have the same effect happen?

@Quantum Pony you seem smart, give it a go?

[cuteycindyhoney 13,308]

This is why the wear constrictive whole body suits.

[Unity 332]

12 minutes ago, cuteycindyhoney said:

This is why the wear constrictive whole body suits.

Oh yeah, I dont really see how those fur-tight  suits would help eliminate alot if G-force, but I forgot they have magic. But we have also seen some pretty crazy flying without the suits on.

So explain that.

[Jedishy 3,548]

21 minutes ago, cuteycindyhoney said:

This is why the wear constrictive whole body suits.

I do not think they have the right pressure points in the suits to force blood towards the head like a real suit made for high seed flight does. 

 

To answer the OP I would think the situation is like humans and or use of our muscle capacity. We do not use anywhere near our full strength for fear of hurting ourself be it joints or breaking bone. So I would think that there is a subconscious limitation in a similar fashion as far as flight speed goes. 

I suppose with a lot of mental training or an adrenaline fix a pony might just break that limitation similar to an old lady lifting a car in a panicked rescue situation. But I doubt that it would happen outside of that. 

[Lord Midnight Madness 1,544]

I think because they are magical pegasi they can withstand the G force of flying and manuvering. I also think that because Rainbow Dash creates a sonic boom and that requires a lot of G force to execute. So yes they are magical and can withstand extreme G force flying.

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

You're absolutely right in that it's a problem for real-life pilots. That's why you'll almost never see fighter pilots pitch down rapidly in flight. To maneuver, pilots will typically bank in the direction they want to turn, and then pitch up.

For instance, watch this and observe how the pilot always orients the plane so that it is turning "up" for any direction it goes.

This happens because the human body can better withstand vertical G-forces compared to lateral or horizontal. Although specific numbers will depend on what sources you consult, it's generally stated that humans can withstand 4-6 Gs in the down direction, but in the up direction, it's only around two.

How this translates to the wonderbolt's acrobatics depends largely on two things: how fast they fly, and how well adapted pegasi's bodies are to withstand such forces.

In circular motion, the acceleration to maintain a curved path is proportional to velocity squared divided by the radius. So, for instance, flying in a circle with a speed of 25 mph is going to have a quarter of G-force as the same circle with a speed of 50mph.

Perhaps, a better way to look at this problem is to look at the wings. Again, this kind of depends on how big you think the ponies are--but we can make some assumptions here. A pegasus' wing area is probably between one and two square meters, but for simplicity's sake, we'll assume that it's one. If we assume that a well-conditioned pegasus can withstand a wing loading of a few hundred pounds, then we can backtrace to find a few other properties.

A typical coefficient of lift for an aircraft may be around 1.5 or so. The coefficient of lift is defined as the following:

F = Cl * (1/2) v^2 * rho * A

The fluid density rho is 1.23 kg /m^3 for air at sea level, but for simplicity we can approximate this as 1. The area A is, as stated before, going to be approximated as 1 square meter. With a Cl of 1.5, we can reduce this equation to F = 0.75 * v^2.

Now, remember that the velocity squared and radius determine the force needed to maintain a curved trajectory. In fact, we can say that F = m * v^2 / r, and if we rearrange the terms here, we can equate this to F = (m / r) * v^2.

Therefore, because F = 0.75 * v^2 and F = (m / r) * v^2, we know that m / r must be equal to .75. The units are going to be in kg and meters, since I'm using the kg m s system here.

In this case, m is the object's mass, and r is the radius of the curve. From calculations I did years ago, I came to the conclusion that a pegasus has a mass of 168 lb or 76 kg (see my explanation in this thread here). With m known, now all we need to do is solve for r.

m / r = 0.75, where m = 75 (approximately). By rearranging these terms and doing a little algebra, we get an answer of 100 for r.

So, at the wing's maximum loading, a pegasus can fly in a circle of radius no less than 100 meters. Granted, it's kind of important to take this number with a grain of salt--there were many assumptions made along the way here, and any given number could be off by as much as 50%. So, it would be more appropriate to say that a pegasus could fly in a circle of a radius between 50 and 150 meters or so, but not much less.

If the maximum wing loading is, again, around a few hundred pounds (we'll say 1500 Newtons, or 337 pounds-force), then this can be substituted in either equation to find the maximum velocity. That's around 45 meters per second, or 100 mph. The corresponding acceleration is around 2g.

I know what you're going to ask now. Why is it that a pegasus can only handle an acceleration of 2g, when humans can handle as much as 4-6? Actually, the answer is pretty simple. Humans can handle that much in a plane because a plane's wings are bearing the force--and the wings are made of incredibly strong, lightweight alloys. The pilot will black out before the wings get ripped off from aerodynamic stresses, because the wings can withstand the weight of a dozen buses stacked on top of each other. In a pegasus, however...

A pegasus's wings are flesh and bone. If a pegasus weighs 168 lbs, then their wings would be supporting 4x that much weight if they are pulling 4g. If they are pulling 6g, then their wings are supporting 6x that much weight. All those g-forces have to come from somewhere, and it's the wings that support the force, just as your feet normally support your weight when you're walking.

TL;DR: It's probably not a problem, because the wings are going to get crushed by aerodynamic stresses before a pegasus blacks out.

 

Edited August 8, 2018 by Admiral Regulus

[Unity 332]

13 minutes ago, Admiral Regulus said:

 

I should work on actually thinking about an question before I ask it. I forgot that while they do go crazy fast speeds they are not humans. This is where to problem with everything you wrote, literally everything you wrote can be thrown out the window... why? Because these are human physics that apply to humans and our planet. Not that I dont appreciate time put into that huge explanation.

[Unity 332]

1 hour ago, cuteycindyhoney said:

 

 

48 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

 

Actually, yes.

The suits would not offer any real protection against strong G-forces as pilots in our world use air bags in suits that change depending on how they are maneuvering(so a sharp up turn would activate them keeping blood from entering the legs, alot of it). So those suits would not exactly protect anything against G-force, but they may protect against harsh winds and keep you warm.

But non rod that matters because they are not humans so these rules do not apply.

[cuteycindyhoney 13,308]

Well, magic is a big part of their flight ability. An Equestrian Pegasus pony does not have a big enough wing surface area to body size/mass ratio to enable flight. Their innate magic, combined with possibly magically treated flight suits, and rigorous training, should help prevent blackout.     

[Unity 332]

8 minutes ago, cuteycindyhoney said:

Well, magic is a big part of their flight ability. An Equestrian Pegasus pony does not have a big enough wing surface area to body size/mass ratio to enable flight. Their innate magic, combined with possibly magically treated flight suits, and rigorous training, should help prevent blackout.     

That whole surface ratio thing.

huuuuman

[Narcissus 355]

Simply put, I don't think a pony could knock his/her self out with their own G-force because they are in control of their own speeds and thus would slow down if they felt unconsciousness coming on. 

[Quantum Pony 40]

 

On 8/8/2018 at 8:09 AM, Admiral Regulus said:

 

Perhaps, a better way to look at this problem is to look at the wings. Again, this kind of depends on how big you think the ponies are--but we can make some assumptions here. A pegasus' wing area is probably between one and two square meters, but for simplicity's sake, we'll assume that it's one. If we assume that a well-conditioned pegasus can withstand a wing loading of a few hundred pounds, then we can backtrace to find a few other properties.

A typical coefficient of lift for an aircraft may be around 1.5 or so. The coefficient of lift is defined as the following:

F = Cl * (1/2) v^2 * rho * A

The fluid density rho is 1.23 kg /m^3 for air at sea level, but for simplicity we can approximate this as 1. The area A is, as stated before, going to be approximated as 1 square meter. With a Cl of 1.5, we can reduce this equation to F = 0.75 * v^2.

Now, remember that the velocity squared and radius determine the force needed to maintain a curved trajectory. In fact, we can say that F = m * v^2 / r, and if we rearrange the terms here, we can equate this to F = (m / r) * v^2.

Therefore, because F = 0.75 * v^2 and F = (m / r) * v^2, we know that m / r must be equal to .75. The units are going to be in kg and meters, since I'm using the kg m s system here.

 

4

I think Admiral Regulus gave a really nice and detailed explanation. Although I am a bit confused when you equated the Lift force to the centripetal force, giving (rho*A*Cl)/2 = m/r. It seems a bit odd that all the terms except 'r' are constants. So does the assumption that the 'wing loading of a few hundred pounds' play a role in finding 'r'? Sorry, Aerodynamics isn't really my strong suit   

 

I think if we look at the evidence from the episodes, especially the Wonderbolts academy episode, the dizzitron shows that ponies do get dizzy during flight. So if we push that idea a bit further, it is quite reasonable to think that they can blackout as well  

 

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

1 hour ago, Quantum Pony said:

 

I think Admiral Regulus gave a really nice and detailed explanation. Although I am a bit confused when you equated the Lift force to the centripetal force, giving (rho*A*Cl)/2 = m/r. It seems a bit odd that all the terms except 'r' are constants. So does the assumption that the 'wing loading of a few hundred pounds' play a role in finding 'r'? Sorry, Aerodynamics isn't really my strong suit   

 

I think if we look at the evidence from the episodes, especially the Wonderbolts academy episode, the dizzitron shows that ponies do get dizzy during flight. So if we push that idea a bit further, it is quite reasonable to think that they can blackout as well  

 

This is an extremely simplified version of the problem. A pegasus can fold their wings, changing both the wing area and coefficient of lift. The coefficient of lift also depends on other factors, such as angle of attack and wing shape.

The reason I equated the lift force to the centripetal force is because the lift force must be great enough to overcome both gravity and the centripetal force.

At any given time in flight, the forces acting on both birds and planes are lift, drag, thrust, and gravity. In birds and pegasi, the thrust comes from flapping wings. In planes, the thrust comes from the engine. However, lift, drag, and gravity are always present. It is these three forces that, when added together, must result in a centripetal force.

Gravity will always be acting downward. Drag will always be acting in the direction opposite of velocity. Lift, however, can be oriented in any direction. That's how planes turn and can even fly upside down.

[Unity 332]

1 hour ago, Admiral Regulus said:

This is an extremely simplified version of the problem. A pegasus can fold their wings, changing both the wing area and coefficient of lift. The coefficient of lift also depends on other factors, such as angle of attack and wing shape.

The reason I equated the lift force to the centripetal force is because the lift force must be great enough to overcome both gravity and the centripetal force.

At any given time in flight, the forces acting on both birds and planes are lift, drag, thrust, and gravity. In birds and pegasi, the thrust comes from flapping wings. In planes, the thrust comes from the engine. However, lift, drag, and gravity are always present. It is these three forces that, when added together, must result in a centripetal force.

Gravity will always be acting downward. Drag will always be acting in the direction opposite of velocity. Lift, however, can be oriented in any direction. That's how planes turn and can even fly upside down.

But again.

Equestrian Physics are different.

We cannot get a real answer just by using Human knowledge