Suppose we have only dreamed...

[Titan Rising 2,156]

@

 

I'm sorry you see it that way, I can't think of anything more depressing to accept that way of thinking. The only purpose I can see in such a universe is to bring comfort to yourself, and that is something I refuse to live for. It is easy to say good and evil are subjective but that is something I refuse to accept as well; like I said in my first post I believe there are things everyone wants to strive for and a way that everyone wants to be, but I also believe forgiveness to those who fall short is something very important as well

 

@@MarkKB

 

Indeed that is one way to look at the analogy I made, however I would argue that there is no meaning to be had in a universe of random chance that will eventually die. I would argue that dreaming there is something more than what is to be found in this universe is the only way to find a meaning beyond those pretty words and rhymes of the poem. If you say our purpose is to improve the universe then what purpose would we have had if our sun suddenly exploded? I see none. Actions and experiences are only meaningful if they are lasting

 

The common animal lives for the here and now, they don't look to the past or the future. Humans have been given that capability by either random chance or some form of divine guidance. To think that this and many other cognitive abilities we have exist merely to make our lives more comfortable than the life forms around us is something I can not accept. I would rather be an animal bred to be slaughtered than a human being taking advantage of my surroundings to further my own life if that were the case

Edited August 27, 2012 by Hollowshield

[Abstract 832]

@

 

I'm sorry you see it that way, I can't think of anything more depressing to accept that way of thinking. The only purpose I can see in such a universe is to bring comfort to yourself, and that is something I refuse to live for. It is easy to say good and evil are subjective but that is something I refuse to accept as well; like I said in my first post I believe there are things everyone wants to strive for and a way that everyone wants to be, but I also believe forgiveness to those who fall short is something very important as well

It can be depressing when you think about it, but if you believe in that, you can't let it get to you. And honestly, it's the most rational way to go about things. Maybe you're different, but personally, I'd rather live in a cold, hard and meaningless reality than in my own willful denial. It would certainly be nice if we had meaning, a purpose, but it's hardly necessary to live.

 

 

Indeed that is one way to look at the analogy I made, however I would argue that there is no meaning to be had in a universe of random chance that will eventually die. I would argue that dreaming there is something more than what is to be found in this universe is the only way to find a meaning beyond those pretty words and rhymes of the poem. If you say our purpose is to improve the universe then what purpose would we have had if our sun suddenly exploded? I see none. Actions and experiences are only meaningful if they are lasting

 

The common animal lives for the here and now, they don't look to the past or the future. Humans have been given that capability by either random chance or some form of divine guidance. To think that this and many other cognitive abilities we have exist merely to make our lives more comfortable than the life forms around us is something I can not accept. I would rather be an animal bred to be slaughtered than a human being taking advantage of my surroundings to further my own life if that were the case

 

Unfortunately, that's how human nature works. In the end, everything we do is motivated by our selfishness and desire to make our own lives better. You simply can't deny this. Why do you need a reason for it?

 

There's nothing wrong in wanting to believe in a greater purpose, a higher power and such. But refusing to accept the possibility that that may not exist isn't healthy. You shouldn't need a purpose to exist; that fact is, as far as we know, we all do. And that's that. What we should be doing with our existence is trying to make the world a better place to exist in, regardless of selfish motivation for it. What created us, why we exist, and what happens after death are all questions that are mind-expanding to ponder and theorize, but you can't let those questions dictate the way you live your life; because, most likely, you'll never know the answer.

 

Live without fear, with a sense of self worth. Live as you feel would be most beneficial to yourself and others. But don't waste it all away thinking you need a reason to live.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

It can be depressing when you think about it, but if you believe in that, you can't let it get to you. And honestly, it's the most rational way to go about things. Maybe you're different, but personally, I'd rather live in a cold, hard and meaningless reality than in my own willful denial. It would certainly be nice if we had meaning, a purpose, but it's hardly necessary to live.

To be fair I've never been one to quite care to do or accept things because they're rational or make sense, and it's the same thing here: I don't quite care to accept that this is all there is because it's all I can observe. I would hope that others don't mistake my hope for something more as "willful denial" of this cold, hard, meaningless reality because that simply is not the case. I accept what is right in front of me and I hope for something more; it actually sounds more like you're the one willfully denying the possibility that there could be anything more

 

Unfortunately, that's how human nature works. In the end, everything we do is motivated by our selfishness and desire to make our own lives better. You simply can't deny this. Why do you need a reason for it?

Why can't I deny this? Is me not wanting to be motivated by selfishness and desire to make my own life better not evidence that that is not necessarily how human nature works?

 

There's nothing wrong in wanting to believe in a greater purpose, a higher power and such. But refusing to accept the possibility that that may not exist isn't healthy.

I do find this funny to be honest. I would say to refuse to accept the possibility that something more does not exist is even less healthy. I do acknowledge the possibility that something more does not exist, I simply refuse to let that be a guiding factor in how I live my life.

 

Live without fear, with a sense of self worth. Live as you feel would be most beneficial to yourself and others. But don't waste it all away thinking you need a reason to live.

 

I'm not wasting it aimlessly thinking about a reason why I should live lol. This way of thinking is exactly what fuels me to live without fear and do things for others rather than myself. I don't waste time thinking my days away - I have given myself reason to believe in something regardless the outcome and that belief directly impacts the way I lead my life.

[Abstract 832]

To be fair I've never been one to quite care to do or accept things because they're rational or make sense, and it's the same thing here: I don't quite care to accept that this is all there is because it's all I can observe. I would hope that others don't mistake my hope for something more as "willful denial" of this cold, hard, meaningless reality because that simply is not the case. I accept what is right in front of me and I hope for something more; it actually sounds more like you're the one willfully denying the possibility that there could be anything more

You're going back and forth a bit here; you claim to not accept that there isn't something greater out there, yet at the same time claim that you acknowledge the possibility that it could be true. You can't "half believe" in something. (Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting this, as it's highly possible.)

 

Personally, I have no opinion on if there is something more. I have not nearly enough information to make such a decision of belief. I think it would be nice if such a thing were to exist, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it might or might not.

 

 

Why can't I deny this? Is me not wanting to be motivated by selfishness and desire to make my own life better not evidence that that is not necessarily how human nature works?

Wanting to have no such nature is noble, but realistically impossible. I'm sure there's exceptions to the rule out there, but one cannot use such examples to disprove anything.

 

 

 

I do find this funny to be honest. I would say to refuse to accept the possibility that something more does not exist is even less healthy. I do acknowledge the possibility that something more does not exist, I simply refuse to let that be a guiding factor in how I live my life.

Both are unhealthy, to what degree is up for debate and probably has no real consensus.

Just out of curiosity, what do you let guide you? I'm genuinely interested to hear what influences your choices, your morals and the like. (Forgive me, but you seem like a fascinating person for multiple reasons, I'd like to get into your head a little bit. )

 

 

 

I'm not wasting it aimlessly thinking about a reason why I should live lol. This way of thinking is exactly what fuels me to live without fear and do things for others rather than myself.

But even wanting to do things for others is a selfish motive. Unless you really do those things just for no reason it all, it benefits you, whether that be in physical restitution or emotional fulfillment.

I have given myself reason to believe in something regardless the outcome and that belief directly impacts the way I lead my life.

 

This intrigues me, care to explain further?

[Titan Rising 2,156]

You're going back and forth a bit here; you claim to not accept that there isn't something greater out there, yet at the same time claim that you acknowledge the possibility that it could be true. You can't "half believe" in something. (Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting this, as it's highly possible.)

 

Personally, I have no opinion on if there is something more. I have not nearly enough information to make such a decision of belief. I think it would be nice if such a thing were to exist, but I wouldn't go as far as to say it might or might not.

And forgive me if I'm not being very clear in all of this. What I acknowledge is that I know nothing for sure, but when it comes to how I live my life and the ideals that I live it by I refuse to believe that there is not anything greater out there because if there is not then I do not care to be a part of this world anyway. When I say "greater" or "more" I mean to say anything to give living life meaning beyond living for the sake of living.

 

Wanting to have no such nature is noble, but realistically impossible. I'm sure there's exceptions to the rule out there, but one cannot use such examples to disprove anything.

I do not deny that it's impossible for me to completely get rid of greed and envy because I do believe they are part of human nature, but I also believe it is possible to act without accordance to them. There is nothing really to disprove either; me believing we are capable of acting without accordance to them is just as much speculation on the subject as saying that we are not, I simply choose to believe in the former.

 

Both are unhealthy, to what degree is up for debate and probably has no real consensus.

Just out of curiosity, what do you let guide you? I'm genuinely interested to hear what influences your choices, your morals and the like. (Forgive me, but you seem like a fascinating person for multiple reasons, I'd like to get into your head a little bit. )

I believe in the 7 deadly sins. Why? They're simple and [i think] identify the inner conflicts of humanity on point. I think every struggle to be good leads back in one way or another to acting against those sinful natures. But I also think forgiveness to those who aren't always able to act against them is a Godly virtue and so I idolize and admire Jesus very much. Beyond this I can't really say why I believe these things, they just identify what I feel are wrong ways to be for whatever reason.

 

This intrigues me, care to explain further?

 

I don't really know what else to say about that. Believing in something more gives me cause to pursue an ideal even to the death because I put more value in following that ideal than my otherwise (precious) life gifted to me through random chance.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Hollowshield

[PonyEcho 1,610]

well personally I don't have respect for Muslims or Christian's ect because well they don't respect me.

 

however its nice to believe in the afterlife (despite people telling me that i will burn in hell for having relations with men)

its also nice to believe that there will be peace in the world (its just a shame the every religion doesn't want to give it a try unless there on top )

 

i very much believe in Karma do good thinks and good think will come do bad things and they will bite you in the ass. but sometime that is a hard thing to follow

 

so in the end i don't care

[Evilshy 5,090]

@

 

I'm sorry you see it that way, I can't think of anything more depressing to accept that way of thinking. The only purpose I can see in such a universe is to bring comfort to yourself, and that is something I refuse to live for. It is easy to say good and evil are subjective but that is something I refuse to accept as well; like I said in my first post I believe there are things everyone wants to strive for and a way that everyone wants to be, but I also believe forgiveness to those who fall short is something very important as well

 

Well, I for one find it depressing that you don't seem to think humans are able to give life meaning on their own, that they need a higher power to do it for them. And there are many ways to bring comfort to oneself. For example, volunteering at a retirement center near my house makes me happy, nothing wrong with that.

 

You can't multiquote on mobile, so I'll just respond to some other stuff you said in general.

 

I firmly believe that good and evil are products of society. I see that we both agree that humans do have "evil" instincts, and I myself believe in the 7 Deadly Sins, in the sense that they're things that all humans feel an instinctual urge to act on. But I don't believe they are inherently evil. If people were going around and committing Sins whenever they felt the urge, society would likely fall apart, and like I said earlier, human are highly social creatures, we can't survive without society. And because of that, we must keep ourselves from acting on some of our baser instincts.

 

I've never liked the idea of attributing higher or divine reasons to things that can be explained perfectly well using things we are capable of understanding. A big thing I have against religion is that it tells us that there are things that, by their very nature, can and will never be understood.

I'm okay with there being things I don't know, but I'm not okay with their being things I am unable to know. And I don't mean things that we understand so little of now that I'd never be able to figure it out before I die. I mean, I could spend the rest of my life studying and experimenting to try to figure out if String Theory is true, but in all likelyhood, I wouldn't live long enough. But down the road, younger physicists could take up where I left off and figure it out.

[anythingmasterz 75]

I don't even care what else is going on in the world, I will try my hardest to do everything in my power to make my friends and other feel happy. I make sure my friends know that I can and will help them however I can, no matter what this world may try to do. They say there's wars going on, but I'm not making them happen. I'm just making everybody as happy as I can because that's how I make the world a better place. Also, I have a book that contains all 7 books of the Chronicles of Narnia ^.^ and yes, the worlds in those books are often times better and I love immersing myself in those worlds, but sometimes we can get lost in those worlds and forget about everything else, don't do that.

 

Also, to the religion comment, I don't care which religion you are, I myself am a mosh of different religions, might as well be following my own philosophy which is what I believe everyone should do, but I can not prove any religion wrong so I just simply do not care if you're Jewish, Buddist, Christian, or any other religion. One of my mottoes is live life to the fullest, and if we sit there and hate on each other and keep on trying to argue, nothing good will come of it so why do we bother?(one of the reasons I absolutely hate politics, at least in USA).

 

Just do as Pinkie would say and "Come on Everypony, Smile, Smile, Smile."

[Titan Rising 2,156]

Well, I for one find it depressing that you don't seem to think humans are able to give life meaning on their own, that they need a higher power to do it for them. And there are many ways to bring comfort to oneself. For example, volunteering at a retirement center near my house makes me happy, nothing wrong with that.

Well it's not that I don't think humans are able to give life meaning, it's just that I think any meaning we gave it (assuming life was created by random chance and there is no greater meaning) would be horribly insignificant to the point where there is no point in existing at all. Okay so we do something that makes us happy and comfortable? So what? If that's all there is to life I'd rather be a squirrel that can take comfort and pleasure from finding a single nut over being a cognitive human forever destined to seeking more and more self gratification, unable to fully appreciate what we do have.

[Music Chart Fan 819]

There are many specific statements which I could reply to, but it seems to me like we all are spinning our wheels a bit, so I'll try to get to what I think is the core of the discussion here.

 

This life and this physical universe is all that we know for sure exists right now by the power of observation and the use of human intellect. Therefore, it seems that I and others on this thread state that meaning can (and perhaps must) be found in this life and this physical world. Hollowshield seems to reject this out of hand without giving satisfactory reasons.

 

So, please, Hollowshield, can you unequivocally state that there is no meaning to be found in this physical world? If so, then can you unequivocally state why this is so?

 

Maybe you have stated this before, but if so, then it is not clear to me.

[Guest]

There are many specific statements which I could reply to, but it seems to me like we all are spinning our wheels a bit, so I'll try to get to what I think is the core of the discussion here.

 

This life and this physical universe is all that we know for sure exists right now by the power of observation and the use of human intellect. Therefore, it seems that I and others on this thread state that meaning can (and perhaps must) be found in this life and this physical world. Hollowshield seems to reject this out of hand without giving satisfactory reasons.

 

So, please, Hollowshield, can you unequivocally state that there is no meaning to be found in this physical world? If so, then can you unequivocally state why this is so?

 

Maybe you have stated this before, but if so, then it is not clear to me.

 

Yes please, I agree, I feel that we have been going around in circles debating the same things with very little reasoning coming from your end Hallowshield. :/

 

You keep saying meaning we give life is insignificant, but why? Also, you seem to keep switching your view-point depending on what we say. Not trying to be rude, but that is the feeling I keep getting that you just alter your argument enough to deflect anything we say without actually giving reasons.

[PonyEcho 1,610]

note this is the opinion of a bi maybe pan-sexual so you religious folk can ignore it if you like.

 

religion is a tool, like a book or in some cases a double edged sword

 

you can pick up the tool and read it out loud that that there is a all powerful all knowing being out there but the moment some says other wise don't wield it as a weapon and smack their opinion to the ground, or use it to attack someone for being different the what you have been told is right and wrong.

 

also its a choice whether or not to use said tool, the tool might make life easier for you but it wont always work for every situation their will always be moment were 'god' can not help you.

 

in the end Religion is a withered old toll that is only ever used now to achieve some form of superiority over others nothing more sure it has other means but i sure as hell haven't witness them , unless it was the brick that got smashed into my face when i came out as a homosexual at age 17.

 

again i'd like to stat the i'm not the best person to talk about this because of bad experiences how ever those 'bad experiences are there and have been there though out history because of fear that some thing might not be wrong and somethings might not be right.

 

but i'll wait it out until i'm ether nothing or at those big golden gates, hey i might get luck and GOD or Allah might rely like gays and dislike all the homophones, he might have rely liked the idea of Hentai..... well never know id rather find out for my self than have some jackass said that "god said it to some guy 1000's of years ago so it must be true" followed by "your going to hell"

 

again i honestly don't give a f k and ill find out when i find out and live now rather then dread the future

[Guest]

note this is the opinion of a bi maybe pan-sexual so you religious folk can ignore it if you like.

 

religion is a tool, like a book or in some cases a double edged sword

 

you can pick up the tool and read it out loud that that there is a all powerful all knowing being out there but the moment some says other wise don't wield it as a weapon and smack their opinion to the ground, or use it to attack someone for being different the what you have been told is right and wrong.

 

also its a choice whether or not to use said tool, the tool might make life easier for you but it wont always work for every situation their will always be moment were 'god' can not help you.

 

in the end Religion is a withered old toll that is only ever used now to achieve some form of superiority over others nothing more sure it has other means but i sure as hell haven't witness them , unless it was the brick that got smashed into my face when i came out as a homosexual at age 17.

 

again i'd like to stat the i'm not the best person to talk about this because of bad experiences how ever those 'bad experiences are there and have been there though out history because of fear that some thing might not be wrong and somethings might not be right.

 

but i'll wait it out until i'm ether nothing or at those big golden gates, hey i might get luck and GOD or Allah might rely like gays and dislike all the homophones, he might have rely liked the idea of Hentai..... well never know id rather find out for my self than have some jackass said that "god said it to some guy 1000's of years ago so it must be true" followed by "your going to hell"

 

again i honestly don't give a f k and ill find out when i find out and live now rather then dread the future

 

Faith in my opinion is a positive thing if used correctly, religion on the other hand is often much less positive and more often than not negative. It separates us, whereas faith binds us. Faith requires no code, no rules, just a belief, religion demands its followers to act in its name.

 

One can have faith/spirituality, but no be religious. I am very spiritual, but I refuse to follow religious dogma, I might learn from the positive lessons religions try to teach, but I don't feel compelled to follow anything they say. Religion makes people feel more assured of their future, but it also hands power over to those who lead the religious ideals (it used to be people like the Pope and the like, but now it is right wingers talk-show hosts, and politicians for the most part) and these people can actually sway the opinions of many into very hateful thoughts.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

This life and this physical universe is all that we know for sure exists right now by the power of observation and the use of human intellect. Therefore, it seems that I and others on this thread state that meaning can (and perhaps must) be found in this life and this physical world. Hollowshield seems to reject this out of hand without giving satisfactory reasons.

 

So, please, Hollowshield, can you unequivocally state that there is no meaning to be found in this physical world? If so, then can you unequivocally state why this is so?

 

Lol? I don't even know what more to say. Why don't you tell me why my thoughts are not satisfactory?

 

I have been saying that a universe created by random chance with no higher purpose than to live and die is meaningless. And it is - what is the meaning of living just for the sake of living? The only meaning you can come up with after accepting that notion is we live to try to be happy and to make ourselves comfortable and to enjoy ourselves until we die. Well my friend, obviously that throws any concept of good and evil instantly out the window and gives people initiative to go do whatever they want to make themselves feel good with no remorse. I reject this idea because if I didn't then I would always have to assume the worst about everything, there would be no hope in becoming part of anything more than a race of animated bags of flesh, and there would be no point in caring about anyone other than myself.

 

I honestly don't understand why you can't understand what I'm trying to say here and why I reject these ideas. Even if you dont agree with them I don't feel like it's a difficult concept to grasp, and I especially don't appreciate you throwing my beliefs into the dirt calling them unsatisfactory because you might not comprehend them. I perfectly understand why you and others don't want to believe in anything other than what's right in front of your face, a part of me wants to do that as well, but another side of me wants to believe that there is more to this world than just kill or be killed and truth is I would rather die trying to follow that side than to just give up and try to make myself comfortable until I'm dead

 

Yes please, I agree, I feel that we have been going around in circles debating the same things with very little reasoning coming from your end Hallowshield. :/

 

You keep saying meaning we give life is insignificant, but why? Also, you seem to keep switching your view-point depending on what we say. Not trying to be rude, but that is the feeling I keep getting that you just alter your argument enough to deflect anything we say without actually giving reasons.

 

Really? What viewpoint have I switched exactly? You say I'm giving little reasoning but the only meaning you guys can assign a universe with nothing else is to be comfortable and enjoy yourselves.

 

I don't find those reasons to be very meaningful at all as they're essentially ways to bide our time until we're dead, so why don't you give me some more reasoning as to why they are meaningful?

Edited August 27, 2012 by Hollowshield

[PonyEcho 1,610]

Faith in my opinion is a positive thing if used correctly, religion on the other hand is often much less positive and more often than not negative. It separates us, whereas faith binds us. Faith requires no code, no rules, just a belief, religion demands its followers to act in its name.

 

One can have faith/spirituality, but no be religious. I am very spiritual, but I refuse to follow religious dogma, I might learn from the positive lessons religions try to teach, but I don't feel compelled to follow anything they say. Religion makes people feel more assured of their future, but it also hands power over to those who lead the religious ideals (it used to be people like the Pope and the like, but now it is right wingers talk-show hosts, and politicians for the most part) and these people can actually sway the opinions of many into very hateful thoughts.

 

yeah i agree but that kinda fall into my not caring principle but i guess i never could find away to put it there i just didnt care.

 

this is a topic about religion, i consider these things pointless because they don't change people minds or opinions on the subject because were all closed off to our own idea like i hate overly religious folk because well they hate me and i leads me to think if there right all my life of being a good person and helping people, ill still burn in hell and that where i lift the finger to.

 

people are just gona shout back and forth with each other because its a topic that has no definite answer yet

so we all need to learn to STFU and accept that we don't know jack and all homophobic a holes need to suck a d k

[MarkKB 32]

I have been saying that a universe created by random chance with no higher purpose than to live and die is meaningless. And it is - what is the meaning of living just for the sake of living? The only meaning you can come up with after accepting that notion is we live to try to be happy and to make ourselves comfortable and to enjoy ourselves until we die.

Why? Why can't we strive to be the best we can be, to make our lives as memorable as possible (both to us and others) and try and bring ourselves forward? Do we not have a human spirit, at least in the metaphoric sense?

 

I dream of a better world. I dream that in the future we will find wonders more brilliant than we can even imagine today. That's what drives me. That's what fills my imagination. Would I like to see it myself? Sure! Do I have to see it (even in some kind of afterlife) to try and help it come about? Certainly not.

 

What's giving me problems is 'living for the sake of living'. Sure, you could argue that that's ultimately the base drive behind us - or anyone for that matter. But I'd argue the 'Cogito ergo sum' defense - it doesn't matter, ultimately, what drives our biological processes - I have a brain, therefore I'm going to use it, and use it in a way that (hopefully) benefits both me and the others around me.

 

Well my friend, obviously that throws any concept of good and evil instantly out the window and gives people initiative to go do whatever they want to make themselves feel good with no remorse.

Why? We'd still have our empathy and emotion, wouldn't we?

 

On to a more left-brain line of reasoning, the reason we have cultural codes is because early humanity found that doing some things altruistically benefited themselves, and doing some things selfishly ended up spearing them in the foot, so to speak. The fact that there's no higher 'right or wrong' doesn't give us carté blanc to go around killing people because there would be repercussions.

 

Even people who aren't able to feel emotion, or find it difficult to empathise, are aware of cultural codes, and normally will try and follow them. Usually, the ones that don't are the ones that willingly break them - in which case, how is it different if there were an afterlife than if there weren't?

 

there would be no hope in becoming part of anything more than a race of animated bags of flesh, and there would be no point in caring about anyone other than myself.

And ultimately, we might be animated bags of flesh - my dad is fond of saying 'man's greatest achievement was when he picked up his swamp and walked', referring to the complex systems of organisms that make us work.

 

But that is only meaningless if you choose not to give it meaning. Basically, your life is a blank slate - what you choose to write on it is up to you.

 

I honestly don't understand why you can't understand what I'm trying to say here and why I reject these ideas. Even if you dont agree with them I don't feel like it's a difficult concept to grasp, and I especially don't appreciate you throwing my beliefs into the dirt calling them unsatisfactory because you might not comprehend them.

I perfectly understand why you and others don't want to believe in anything other than what's right in front of your face, a part of me wants to do that as well, but another side of me wants to believe that there is more to this world than just kill or be killed and truth is I would rather die trying to follow that side than to just give up and try to make myself comfortable until I'm dead

 

 

If I might add something here (since you were replying directly to someone else), just because I find a greater purpose unsatisfactory doesn't mean I don't respect what your beliefs are. I can't speak for anyone else, though.

 

On the other hand, I don't think much about what you portray here. Of course there is more to life than what's in front of my face. People have whole lives and opinions and thoughts that are completely foreign and unknown to me, and I'm very fascinated by what lies beneath the surface.

 

Additionally, as I've said above, if your life is meaningless it is only because you failed to give it meaning. A book has no intrinsic meaning by itself; it's for you to fill in the blanks.

Edited August 27, 2012 by MarkKB

[Music Chart Fan 819]

First, let me state what my viewpoint is. I believe that I have tried this to you before, but let me try it again.

 

What more can humans aspire to do (beyond merely surviving) than to minimize suffering and maximize pleasure of others and oneself? It seems to me that everything that humans do can be reduced down to this. I believe this because (1) reducing suffering and increasing happiness is, by my observation, the best endeavor that humans can achieve, and (2) I can observe that doing this is doing good in this world right now, which is the only one that we know exists.

 

I know you ask "Why do good for others?" A few reasons that I see are (1) it is evident from reason and experience that helping others in an interdependent society will on average make life easier and more happy for everyone, including yourself; (2) we have evolved to have instincts to not only preserve our own genes in our own bodies, but to preserve the genes of our kin and to help others in our in-group survive; (3) we have the evolved concept of empathy, being able to feel the pain and pleasure of others; (4) we have an inherent and reasonable sense of reciprocity - that is, others have helped us personally and given of themselves to advance the knowledge and technological capability of the human race, so we want to do the same.

 

If you reject my view because you think it is meaningless, then why does this provide insufficient meaning to you? Would you say that reducing suffering and increasing happiness is a meaningless endeavor, and if so, why, considering that you can see that striving to do this creates good in the world you are living in right now, which is all we know exists?

 

You say you want to believe in a "higher power/purpose" but WHAT exactly is this higher power/purpose? What reasons do you have to believe in it and say that anything else is meaningless or insignificant?

 

You seem to think that the origins of the universe billions of years ago and the ultimate fate of our universe in the unknown future have a significant impact on the meaning of your life. I acknowledge that my actions in my short time living in this universe are likely to not have any cosmic significance, but I think that my aspirations to minimize suffering and maximize happiness for myself and others is in fact the best endeavor for me with my limited capabilities and time in this universe.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

this is a topic about religion, i consider these things pointless because they don't change people minds or opinions on the subject because were all closed off to our own idea like i hate overly religious folk because well they hate me and i leads me to think if there right all my life of being a good person and helping people, ill still burn in hell and that where i lift the finger to.

 

This is not a topic about religion, this is more like an appeal to dream. It is an explanation why people dream, why it is okay to dream, and why believing in something more and trying to turn dreams into reality is not a fools errand. This thread is not trying to convert anyone to any religion or prove any religion as fact, many religions simply fall into the scope of all of this

 

And I'm sad you feel you have to hate others just because they might hate you, that makes you just as bad as them

[I used to be a stranger 7,993]

A world without magical thinking is a world of robots.

Personally I like being a not robot. It means I can be creative, rather than conveying information.

 

Prime example, I could cite the word "eggplant" in this sentence for being unusual and nonsensical within the context of this thread. However, mentioning eggplants requires imaginative thinking, and naming eggplants after eggs and plants is far more creative a thing than using the Latin word for "kind-of tasteless gourd that is purple when ripe".

[Titan Rising 2,156]

Why? Why can't we strive to be the best we can be, to make our lives as memorable as possible (both to us and others) and try and bring ourselves forward? Do we not have a human spirit, at least in the metaphoric sense?

You can, I'm not stopping you. I'm just questioning the purpose and meaning behind "striving to be the best we can be" if we will eventually just die and be nothing more. To not believe in a soul or afterlife or anything like that is to believe our experiences are not cumulative, they will be lost - and so I question the point in having any experiences at all.

 

What's giving me problems is 'living for the sake of living'. Sure, you could argue that that's ultimately the base drive behind us - or anyone for that matter. But I'd argue the 'Cogito ergo sum' defense - it doesn't matter, ultimately, what drives our biological processes - I have a brain, therefore I'm going to use it, and use it in a way that (hopefully) benefits both me and the others around me.

Well I can't argue with that, and I'm not. But that still doesn't make your existence any less meaningless.

 

Why? We'd still have our empathy and emotion, wouldn't we?

 

On to a more left-brain line of reasoning, the reason we have cultural codes is because early humanity found that doing some things altruistically benefited themselves, and doing some things selfishly ended up spearing them in the foot, so to speak. The fact that there's no higher 'right or wrong' doesn't give us carté blanc to go around killing people because there would be repercussions.

 

Even people who aren't able to feel emotion, or find it difficult to empathise, are aware of cultural codes, and normally will try and follow them. Usually, the ones that don't are the ones that willingly break them - in which case, how is it different if there were an afterlife than if there weren't?

Indeed we have the ability to empathize. And what do we use it for? In a world where there is no such thing as good and evil we only use it to ostracize rule breakers and throw them into jail for messing with the overall comfort level of society. We use empathy as a way to justify revenge.

 

Any rules created by society are subjective

 

 

What more can humans aspire to do (beyond merely surviving) than to minimize suffering and maximize pleasure of others and oneself? It seems to me that everything that humans do can be reduced down to this. I believe this because (1) reducing suffering and increasing happiness is, by my observation, the best endeavor that humans can achieve, and (2) I can observe that doing this is doing good in this world right now, which is the only one that we know exists.

So explain to me why your views of 1 are superior to someone who may want to cause suffering and decrease happiness? What makes your endeavor superior to his? Explain why things that are beneficial to the world are superior to things that are not. If we are seeking maximum comfort for the world then I think the human race should fall, because frankly we are doing more net harm to the life of this planet than would be the case if we did not exist at all.

 

I know you ask "Why do good for others?" A few reasons that I see are (1) it is evident from reason and experience that helping others in an interdependent society will on average make life easier and more happy for everyone, including yourself; (2) we have evolved to have instincts to not only preserve our own genes in our own bodies, but to preserve the genes of our kin and to help others in our in-group survive; (3) we have the evolved concept of empathy, being able to feel the pain and pleasure of others; (4) we have an inherent and reasonable sense of reciprocity - that is, others have helped us personally and given of themselves to advance the knowledge and technological capability of the human race, so we want to do the same.

That can be reduced down to "help others because it benefits you". I am personally not interested in this line of thinking. I am interested in doing good because it is the right thing to do, not because it benefits myself or gives me self satisfaction. I am interested in enlightenment - to be good for the sake of being good

 

If you reject my view because you think it is meaningless, then why does this provide insufficient meaning to you? Would you say that reducing suffering and increasing happiness is a meaningless endeavor, and if so, why, considering that you can see that striving to do this creates good in the world you are living in right now, which is all we know exists?

 

You say you want to believe in a "higher power/purpose" but WHAT exactly is this higher power/purpose? What reasons do you have to believe in it and say that anything else is meaningless or insignificant?

Because we are all bound to die anyway, and if we live in a universe where there is nothing more then why put any effort forth to accomplish anything at all?

 

I won't pretend to act like I know what more is out there, I don't. I just dream the best thing I can come up with, but I suppose I will know what that higher power or whatever is when I get there because I imagine I couldn't think up a place better or find a reason to call it meaningless. My reason for hoping for it is that I do not wish to act in accordance to a kill or be killed world where the only purpose is to survive

Edited August 27, 2012 by Hollowshield

[Music Chart Fan 819]

Alright, let's try responding to specific statements again and see if the conversation may be advanced.

 

So explain to me why your views of 1 are superior to someone who may want to cause suffering and decrease happiness? What makes your endeavor superior to his? Explain why things that are beneficial to the world are superior to things that are not.

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Happiness is good and suffering is bad by definition, and by definition, we want good things and don't want bad things. There are deranged people who wish suffering on others, but that is not the norm or the ideal. One can argue the relative merits of specific actions. There are moral calculations, e.g., the amount of suffering caused by an action should be compared to the amount of happiness caused by that action. Generally one should strive to provide the greatest good for the greatest number, although it may be argued that self and people close to oneself have a higher weight in the calculation.

 

If we are seeking maximum comfort for the world then I think the human race should fall, because frankly we are doing more net harm to the life of this planet than would be the case if we did not exist at all.

In the moral calculation, sentient human beings have a higher weight than non-sentient animals and non-feeling plants, because they have a greater capacity to do good in this world, and because they have a greater capacity to feel happiness and suffering. Consequently, doing good for fellow human beings takes priority. That is not to say that we should destroy the Earth in pursuit of this; there is self-interest for the human race to preserve the environment so humans may continue to survive and thrive. A balance must be struck between using the environment to effect good while preserving it for future generations to do the same.

 

That can be reduced down to "help others because it benefits you". I am personally not interested in this line of thinking. I am interested in doing good because it is the right thing to do, not because it benefits myself or gives me self satisfaction. I am interested in enlightenment - to be good for the sake of being good

This is what I meant in my previous post. You oversimplified my argument, then dismissed it out of hand. Now it's my turn - being good for the sake of being good is meaningless. It is the results of one's actions that matter; this is why we take action - to bring about a result. If the motivation for helping others ends up being fully or partly selfish, why does that matter, so long as others are helped?

 

Furthermore, you may like to think that your actions are done with absolutely no regard to self-advancement or self-satisfaction, but I don't think that is possible. We have evolved instincts to feel good when helping others, and these instincts are always there providing unconscious motivation whether you want them to be or not. But again, why do you consider a good act that also brings about self-advancement or self-satisfaction to be inferior?

 

Because we are all bound to die anyway, and if we live in a universe where there is nothing more then why put any effort forth to accomplish anything at all?

Judging from your posts, you really seem obsessed with things beyond your control. Yes, we all will die one day; yes, in the distant future the sun will heat up to such a point that water will boil off, the atmosphere will escape into space, and life on Earth will end; yes, in the more distant future the universe may come to an end. I repeat, why does this have any effect on your ability to do good in this world right now? Like I said before, I think that the highest endeavor that any one of us can achieve is to decrease suffering and increase happiness for as many as possible, including yourself. You did not tell me what specific higher purpose there can be than this.

 

I won't pretend to act like I know what more is out there, I don't. I just dream the best thing I can come up with, but I suppose I will know what that higher power or whatever is when I get there because I imagine I couldn't think up a place better or find a reason to call it meaningless. My reason for hoping for it is that I do not wish to act in accordance to a kill or be killed world where the only purpose is to survive

If you don't know what "more" is out there, why do believe there is "something more"? Is there evidence for this "something more" in which you believe? If so, I would like to know what it is, because evidence is what will convince me to change my viewpoint.

 

Also, I did not say, nor do I think, that we should "act in accordance to a kill or be killed world where the only purpose is to survive." The highest endeavor that I stated above is more than merely surviving, and should not be construed as such.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Happiness is good and suffering is bad by definition, and by definition, we want good things and don't want bad things. There are deranged people who wish suffering on others, but that is not the norm or the ideal. One can argue the relative merits of specific actions. There are moral calculations, e.g., the amount of suffering caused by an action should be compared to the amount of happiness caused by that action. Generally one should strive to provide the greatest good for the greatest number, although it may be argued that self and people close to oneself have a higher weight in the calculation.

Lol. Where is good defined as being happy? Or spreading happiness? And where is bad defined as suffering and causing suffering? I don't know where you got that definition.

 

And you label people who take pleasure in causing suffering "deranged" in a realm that appeared simply by chance? Taking this stance that there is nothing more than random chance you are forced to believe morality is subjective, and thus you are in no place to argue what is "good" and what is "normal" or who is "deranged".

 

In the moral calculation, sentient human beings have a higher weight than non-sentient animals and non-feeling plants, because they have a greater capacity to do good in this world, and because they have a greater capacity to feel happiness and suffering. Consequently, doing good for fellow human beings takes priority. That is not to say that we should destroy the Earth in pursuit of this; there is self-interest for the human race to preserve the environment so humans may continue to survive and thrive. A balance must be struck between using the environment to effect good while preserving it for future generations to do the same.

this would be laughable if it wasn't so sad, honestly. Not only do you make an assumption that we have a greater capacity to feel happiness and suffering but you [again] try to define morality in a realm where you do not actually believe an objective morality exists. They are nothing more than evolved instinctual/electrical responses to you, no? Well explain to me why your evolved instinctual responses telling you to cooperate people to advance yourself are superior to someone elses who tells them to kill? Are they superior because more people identify with your response? And if so does that give you a right to ostracize or incarcerate or kill or tell people that they're "bad" because they receive different electrical/chemical responses in their brains than what the majority might?

 

And I'd like to know who you think you are to start weighing one life against another

 

This is what I meant in my previous post. You oversimplified my argument, then dismissed it out of hand. Now it's my turn - being good for the sake of being good is meaningless. It is the results of one's actions that matter; this is why we take action - to bring about a result. If the motivation for helping others ends up being fully or partly selfish, why does that matter, so long as others are helped?

Because if your motivation is to help yourself then you're not helping others for the sake of helping others, you're helping others for personal gain. To be good for the sake of being good would indeed be meaningless in a universe where there is nothing more, but that is the purpose of this thread - to say that perhaps there is something more that we can't understand that provides meaning behind being good for the sake of being good, the evidence being our dreams and imagination that can take us to worlds where such notions are valued and displayed

 

Furthermore, you may like to think that your actions are done with absolutely no regard to self-advancement or self-satisfaction, but I don't think that is possible. We have evolved instincts to feel good when helping others, and these instincts are always there providing unconscious motivation whether you want them to be or not. But again, why do you consider a good act that also brings about self-advancement or self-satisfaction to be inferior?

Well all I can say to this is I'll try to live my life to prove the idea that it's impossible to act without thoughts of self advancement wrong.

 

There is nothing inferior or wrong about an act that brings about self-satisfaction or self-advancement as well; what is wrong is when the intentions of the act are to bring about self advancement and this is because the action would not be done for the sake of being good.

 

Judging from your posts, you really seem obsessed with things beyond your control. Yes, we all will die one day; yes, in the distant future the sun will heat up to such a point that water will boil off, the atmosphere will escape into space, and life on Earth will end; yes, in the more distant future the universe may come to an end. I repeat, why does this have any effect on your ability to do good in this world right now?

 

It does not. The fact that I will die does not bother me and this has nothing to do with my reasoning to do good. I will still try to do good even if I were to die tomorrow because I believe there is meaning in it, meaning that I can't full explain but still believe in. In your idea of the world there is no such thing as "good" because "good" is relative, and living in itself is pointless because there is nothing more. Nothing lasts, and so there is no reason for existing.

 

Like I said before, I think that the highest endeavor that any one of us can achieve is to decrease suffering and increase happiness for as many as possible, including yourself. You did not tell me what specific higher purpose there can be than this.

Being good; and personally, I would not define "being good" as decreasing suffering and increasing happiness.

 

If you don't know what "more" is out there, why do believe there is "something more"? Is there evidence for this "something more" in which you believe? If so, I would like to know what it is, because evidence is what will convince me to change my viewpoint.

I believe my dreams and thoughts and hopes could be evidence that there is something more. But then, the purpose of this thread is not to convince you that there is "something more" but rather to explain why I (and why I think others) want to believe there is something more. I thought it was kind of obvious at this point, but I will continue to believe there is something more simply because I would rather waste my life hoping (and acting in accordance with that hope) that there is something more rather than live my life solely according to this realm believing there is nothing more.

 

Also, I did not say, nor do I think, that we should "act in accordance to a kill or be killed world where the only purpose is to survive." The highest endeavor that I stated above is more than merely surviving, and should not be construed as such.

 

As if you have a choice? Haha. This is the illusion that is brought by comfort, but to make you comfortable someone had to work, and to get that job they had to compete for it, and in turn someone else was more than likely was denied a job. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to call this a "dog eat dog" world, though they are essentially the same thing

Edited August 28, 2012 by Hollowshield

[Abstract 832]

From what I gather of this discussion, a lot of it boils down to your question of "Why bother doing anything if there is no purpose for it?" I ask you this; why would you not bother to do things for no purpose?

 

I'm not sure why you seem to think everything needs a reason. You even contradict yourself by saying you don't want to help others to achieve anything, other than helping others. That isn't a reason or purposeful, there's no motivation behind it.

 

Look, I get it. You want there to be a reason for life, you want to be selfless and know that what you're doing is right. It's very noble. But you can't simply put all of your faith and belief into that concept. You say you'd rather waste your life than not believe - I truly hope you come to your senses at some point before it's too late. Don't be a martyr and end up regretting your whole life. If you die happy in that mindset, you died in denial, and honestly I can't decide which one of those situations is sadder.

 

I'm not saying give up in your quest for meaning and purpose, but don't blindly believe it exists, and accept that you simply can't know.

[Titan Rising 2,156]

From what I gather of this discussion, a lot of it boils down to your question of "Why bother doing anything if there is no purpose for it?" I ask you this; why would you not bother to do things for no purpose?

Because I don't want to exist to exist? I don't want to struggle through life just to die, finding solace only in comfort, believing my experiences will amount to nothing.

 

I'm not sure why you seem to think everything needs a reason. You even contradict yourself by saying you don't want to help others to achieve anything, other than helping others. That isn't a reason or purposeful, there's no motivation behind it.

I don't want to help others for self benefit, I don't see how I'm not achieving anything by that. My motivation is to be good and it's fueled by my dream of there being something greater. It may not be logical in this realm where you only believe whats right in front of your eyes but [again] that's what this thread is about - to say it's not a fool's errand to believe in such things.

 

Look, I get it. You want there to be a reason for life, you want to be selfless and know that what you're doing is right. It's very noble. But you can't simply put all of your faith and belief into that concept. You say you'd rather waste your life than not believe - I truly hope you come to your senses at some point before it's too late. Don't be a martyr and end up regretting your whole life. If you die happy in that mindset, you died in denial, and honestly I can't decide which one of those situations is sadder.

You sound so pretentious and self righteous. You think anyone who died doing something they believe in is in denial? I pity you. You don't know anything so stop acting as if you do. You don't know if there's anything more to the world than what's in front of us and neither do I for sure, but frankly I don't care.

 

I'm not saying give up in your quest for meaning and purpose, but don't blindly believe it exists, and accept that you simply can't know.

I don't know what to say to you anymore

[Bendy 1,821]

Unfortunately if Atheism (I hate all organized religion, so I think I may be a little borderline Atheist) is true, we'll all embrace the eternal silence and darkness of the empty void, in that you won't even know your dead. However I've made a fan fiction of Futurama that makes both Atheist and religious people happy with the Multiverse theory.

 

U-J-Bender and God

Edited August 28, 2012 by Rush