Why I hate the term "Mary-Sue"

[Pony Of The Month 534]

Okay, so maybe it's not the term itself I hate, but I hate how people just irresponsibly throw it around. I'm not just talking about Twilicorn. Cadence is labeled as one all the time. So, let me explain why I think it's used incorrectly.

 

If I'm correct, a Mary-Sue is perfect and according to the logic of those who use it, they also have god-like powers. They are adored by EVERYONE. 

 

This isn't the only interpretation of Mary-Sue. If you look at the Mary Sue TV Tropes page, there are many. Even if TV Tropes isn't perfect reference guide, these seem like real life interpretations to me.

 

These interpretations include:

 

-Protagonist You Don't Like: Even before Twilight became an Alicorn, there have been people who labeled her as a Mary Sue. One of the reasons could have been that they just don't like her.

 

-Poorly Written Character: This show has multiple writers so it could be a case of "depends of the writer." This could also be the reason why Cadence is always labeled as one. I personally am not accusing the writers of writing Cadence poorly, but she hasn't been developed yet. I think it's still too early to call her a Mary Sue.

 

-Cliched Character: Twilight's a nerd, I guess...? Seriously though, Twilight is not your stereotypical nerd. I think everyone will agree with that. Cadence hasn't had enough characterization to be called cliche.

 

-Author Avatar: Is Twilight an author avatar? I honestly don't know the answer to that one.

 

-Idealized Character: This one could be argued, at least for Twilight, but she's not nearly as ideal as she could be.

 

-Power Fantasy: This pretty much means that the character is a result of the author's fantasies. This might qualify, but than you would have to call every other character a Mary Sue as well. These characters are based on Faust's fantasies as a kid. She had the toys and she would create personalities for each of them.

 

-Infallible Character: This means that the character never fails. This one is obviously false.

 

-Center Of Attention: Twilight has been the "main" character ever since the beginning. However, the show has been having more episodes without a Twilight appearance as it has progressed. Sure, she's what everyone is thinking about after Magical Mystery Cure, but do we really know how much attention she's going to get in season 4? 

 

-Alien Element: This means that the character changes the dynamic of the work and shifts the focus away from the established characters and styles. While Twilight becoming an alicorn may have changed the dynamic of the show, we don't know to what degree it has changed, and there is no evidence that the show's focus has drifted away from the other characters.

 

Twilight isn't a Mary Sue because she has flaws, and may not be as powerful as we think. 

 

Cadence isn't a Mary Sue because she is definitely not OP and does not have an overwhelmingly large in-universe fanbase.

 

Shining Armor is not A Gary Stu because he has obvious flaws from his very first appearance. He was not able to tell Twilight about his wedding because he had to guard Canterlot. If he was OP he totally could have done both at once.Rather than admitting to crying, he uses the term "liquid pride."  He was also handicapped by Sombra in The Crystal Empire.

 

Cherilee is not a Mary Sue because.... well... I don't know.... But no one ever accuses her of being one for some reason. Not that I think she is one or anything. But if someone were to tell me to label one character from this show a Mary Sue, my first thought would be Cherilee. This does not mean that I actually think she's a Mary Sue. She just gives me more Mary Sue vibes than the other characters.

 

Spitfire is not a Mary Sue. I don't have to explain. Just go watch Wonderbolts Academy. It's not because of her drill sergeant behavior, but because she didn't pay enough attention to her students. Also, everytime the Wonderbolts have attempted to save someone's life in the show, they have failed. That includes Spitfire.

 

I know what some of you are thinking. That was random, why did you bring up Spitfire? Because Spitfire is captain of the Wonderbolts. She has a higher social status than Rainbow Dash and the other Wonderbolts. Twilight is called a Mary Sue for having a higher social status than her friends. Therefore, I can talk about Spitfire.

 

I think everyone can agree that Spike is not a Gary Stu. But whenever he's showing his flaws, everyone labels him as "out of character." It makes sense in the case of Spike At Your Service, but I seriously don't understand what was so "out of character" about him in Just For Sidekicks....

 

Are there any other characters who are labeled as "Mary Sue" or "Gary Stu?" And what do you think about what I said? Do you think that any of the characters I mention are Mary Sues/Gary Stus? 

 

 

 

[john smith12345 33]

I totally agree with this. I've seen the term thrown around so much it's meaning is practically lost now. Would Discord be classed as a Gary-Stu?

[Titan Rising 2,156]

I never liked it either.  Mostly because the name mary sue sounds so bland and average and the characters they describe are usually the best.

 

I mean think of characters like Goku, Naruto, and Luffy from One Piece.  I guess they're all Mary Sue characters cause they're kind of too awesome and I guess people just hate that. 

[Pony Of The Month 534]

I totally agree with this. I've seen the term thrown around so much it's meaning is practically lost now. Would Discord be classed as a Gary-Stu?

He may have the ability to do whatever he wants, but that doesn't make him a Gary-Stu. He has obvious character flaws shown in both Return Of Harmony and Keep Calm And Flutter On.

[Fluttermoon 192]

I agree with you. I don't like how the term is tossed around either.

 

Sometimes I get the impression it's just one of the way someone may choose to insult/bass the character by calling them that.

[Sunny Fox 5,950]

Since you mentioned Cheerilee... I don't think she is a Mary Sue either. As I understand it, a Mary Sue must be loved by everyone despite not having done anything that would really justify it. Well, she appears to be the only teacher in the whole of Ponyville, so it makes sense that she gets a lot of love from her students. Also, Big MacIntosh didn't fall instantly in love with her (not on his own at any rate) and they seem to be good friends rather than an item. There are also hints that Cheerilee has had bad luck in love before, definitely not a Mary Sue trait...

 

Speaking of which... maybe Cheerilee and Princess Celestia are the same pony? They share a voice actor, both have a tendency to call their charges "my little ponies", both have a role as teacher, and they never appear in the same scene together, Celestia could easily cast magic to make look like Cheerilee... hay for thought. Of course, I'm sure someone will provide me a screenshot with them both at the same time.

[Shanks 10,816]

Calling Cadence a Mary Sue is a bit more understandable as she does in ways represent the wish fulfillment of being a "princess character" this of course alone does not make her a Mary Sue but even if she did turn out to be one it would be a bit more forgivable than Twilight or any of the other mane 6 becoming one. Speaking of Twilight she also has some elements of a Mary Sue but of course having things in common with a Mary Sue dosen't not always make a Mary Sue and Twilight is proof of that.

 

Twilight is extremely powerful but that is because she has gone through years of training as Celestia's apprentice in addition to her natural talent. She is extremely intelligent but also socially awkward though less so since the series started and has some severe OCD like tendencies, insecurities and issues with anxiety. Twilight can potentially become a Mary Sue due to the abrupt nature of her change into an alicorn and the rushed nature of the finale which does put her close to Mary Sue territory due to the risk of her becoming way too powerful way too soon and approaching princess wish fulfillment territory but because there is far more that we don't know than we actually do know about her transformation into a alicorn we will not know if that is the case until season 4.

 

Shining Armor being a Gary Stu is of course ridiculous, he was just as clueless as everyone else that "Cadence" was actually Queen Chrysalis in disguise and exactly who is accusing Cherilee of being a Mary Sue? I haven't heard that one yet and I haven't really heard anyone call Spitfire a Mary Sue though I do understand the comparison you were trying to make. Spike is of course not a Gary Stu either especially in his more recent episodes.

[Pony Of The Month 534]

 

and exactly who is accusing Cherilee of being a Mary Sue?

 

No one. I actually said in my original post that "Cherilee is not a Mary Sue because...well... I don't know. But no one ever accuses her of being one for some reason. 

 

My point is that I'm surprised she's never called a Mary Sue. She seems to give off the most Mary Sue-ish vibes. At least to me. 

 

I'm not exactly calling her a Mary Sue though. But if someone were to ask me to choose one character to label as a Mary Sue, I would choose her.

[Mutemutt 773]

I don't consider any of these characters Mary Sue/ Gary Stu. I've always thought of Mary Sues as being the "perfect in every way possible" characters but I tend to avoid using the term since some use it so loosely that discussions become messy (which is exactly what you're showing).

 

As for your point about Cheerilee, I don't think she's anywhere near important enough to the story or developed enough to even be considered. It's a much different for Twilight & co. 

[Scootalove 10,689]

I don't think any of the characters on that list are Mary Sues.

 

If you can count Twilight, then that is fine but when you say Cadence too. Both of them are but, Cadence isn't really that developed yet to be classified as one yet.

[Hay Lin 38]

I totally agree with this. I've seen the term thrown around so much it's meaning is practically lost now. Would Discord be classed as a Gary-Stu?

 ...he's evil, and every one hated him except Fluttershy until Keep Calm and Flutter on. After that, everyone else but Fluttershy is netural about him. ( I say everyone because Spike probably dosen't like him, too.)

   I don't know anymore accused Mary Sue or OP's except Celestia, which ended when A Canterlot Wedding aired. There is Nyx and Snowdrop, but those are fan made (however Snowdrop being accused of this title is more than reasonable, since her only flaw is that she's blind)

[Homura Akemi 974]

Mary Sue is one of the most overused phrases in the history of the fictional worlds. I prefer the term godmodder. I do

 

think Cadence is one, though. I just really, really don't like her.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Twilie Sparkle

[Phaeston-e12 173]

There is a difference between criticizing a character for being tangent to the generic character trope and criticizing a character for being under-developed. Characters with a certain generic trope is useful for storytelling purpose because the audience expects them to behave in a way that they are supposed to behave. This creates an easily maneuverable environment for the story-writers.

 

Background ponies are not expected to have a well-developed characterization unless the character has a major role in the storyline. The only reason why Celestia is the most criticized and parodied character is because of her screen-time pales in comparison to main casts yet her exertion on the overall storyline is far too influential when her characterization is still very raw.

[GC13 17]

To call a character in the show itself a Mary Sue would require exceptional evidence; good writers just aren't going to make characters Sues, as a Sue needs to be poorly written in specific ways (most of which involve calling undue attention to the character, whether it's good or bad).

 

None of the characters on the show are Sues or Stus, because none of the characters obsess over any of the others. Heck, in Twilight's case, she's downright ignored twice when paying attention to her is important.

[Veylon 255]

The bar for Mary Sue-dom has been lowered to the point where it's practically on the floor.

 

My overarching criteria is: Do they screw up? Does it have consequences? Are they called on it?

 

Twilight has screwed up multiple times and been called on it. So she gets a clean bill of health from me so far. We'll see how much things change in Season 4.

 

Celestia's is much closer to Mary Suedom. Her only real major screw up was with Chrysalis. Canterlot was promptly plunged into chaos. Unfortunately, she hasn't been called on it. We've seen her decline to take action when it might have been useful a few times, but no harm was done (which adds Mary Sue points).

 

Cadance is definitely Mary Sue. Everyone likes her, she's never done anything wrong, and anything bad that happens to her is someone else's fault. Of course, she might not stay a Mary Sue if she gets some character development. I'm still hoping to hear that she was a Bridezilla and that's why nobody noticed that she'd been replaced.

 

Nobody else accused of Mary Suedom is a major character, so I'm not going to bother caring whether or not they qualify. It doesn't matter.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,091]

Celestia has messed up multiple times, considering that all these villains she's defeated end up coming back later to torment everyone anyway. Heck, Celestia even got super-owned by Chrysalis, and that definitely wouldn't have happened if she was a "Mary Sue", as some say.

 

I agree with Twilie Sparkle on the term Mary Sue; it's just so overused now that it's lost its true meaning. Mary Sue is more of a perfect author insert, and none of these characters appear to be an insert nor do they seem to be wish-fulfillment characters.

 

I just don't see it. I generally like all the characters, and so people running around labeling characters they don't like Mary Sues seems pretty insane.

[Shanks 10,816]

I agree with Twilie Sparkle on the term Mary Sue; it's just so overused now that it's lost its true meaning. Mary Sue is more of a perfect author insert, and none of these characters appear to be an insert nor do they seem to be wish-fulfillment characters.

Not necessarily, there are alot of Mary Sue characters that are idealized versions of the author where the author removes or significantly downplays their negative traits or adds positive traits they do not have but wish to have or exaggerates the positive traits they do have.

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,091]

Not necessarily, there are alot of Mary Sue characters that are idealized versions of the author where the author removes or significantly downplays their negative traits or adds positive traits they do not have but wish to have or exaggerates the positive traits they do have.

 

That's pretty much what I just said. A perfect author insert; as in, a version of the author where their ideals are highlighted and cherishes while any negatives are glossed over.

 

I think we agree but perhaps the term I used needed more elaboration.

[FruitRiver 355]

I completely agree with you. Making Twilight an alicorn doesnt make her any more perfect. Shes still TWILIGHT, she still has flaws. And Cadence, seriously? If she was one of the main 6 id understand it but the episodes shes in arent about her. They arent about her flaws so they dont show them. Neither are Mary-Sues.