Princess Celestia: Benevolent Ruler or Selfish Tyrant?

[GrimCW 658]

The magic that finally turned Twilight into an alicorn came from within Twilight and Celestia's horn was not even shining at the moment and it was clearly the Elements of Harmony that took Twilight to that place. Also, there is Cadance, who had no contact with Celestia until the very moment of her transformation, if she did come to be an alicorn as told in the "Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell" book.

 

 

In both cases Celestia was there, in both cases she was the one who appeared to have brought them there, horn litup or not (actually it has been an animation glitch to have forgotten the light before). She has full control and access to whatever gave them alicorn status.

The elements weren't present for Cadence, so the idea that those decide is put aside.

 

Perhaps celestia can sense when others reach the level needed, or who knows. Either way her presence in both cases is conspicuous.

 

 

 

Taken out of context, this would say that it is Celestia who makes ponies into alicorns

 

 

Not sure how thats out of context. Sunset directly demands Celestia make her one. Celestia refuses outright.

That would indicate the book Sunset mentions points to Celestia having that power. If it were merely a power that rose from some special occurrence, than why would sunset have demanded something that could not be done?

It would've instead convinced her to do as Celestia wanted, and at least played nice in order to gain the power she sought after.

Sunset also states it is Celestia that keeps her from being an alicorn. Saying Celestia is selfish for not given her her "rightful place"

 

 

 

 

because there are other princesses,

 

Again, both appointed, and raised by Celestia.

Both heading to Celestia's word and control.

 

Also Celestia does have control of the major military within the 'verse. With her control over Cadence (she's shown making decisions FOR the crystal empire more than once. From the appointing Cadence as its leader, to some of the guards shown and flags flown being hers), that means she also has some of the highest powers in equestria under her wing. Combined with Luna's guard (though we know little of it, or how big it may be) she really has a helluva force standing behind them. Not to mention the near mindlessness of her troops (In the S4 intro when the guards came to Twilight, they felt they could not act without a princess to guide them... Fairly useless military if put under the gun and all leaders are MIA)

 

 

 

If we were talking about Sunset Shimmer, I'd agree to your SW analogy.

 

 

Actually I was talking Twilight.

She sought power as well, she trained hard and saw/see's Celestia as her mentor and far more. Anything Celestia says goes without question. 

Twilight has on more than one occasion had an illusion to being shut out by Celestia and fell broken and lost until pulled back by a friend. Only to repeat the adoration of her teacher afterward.

Anakin only wanted to help others, he wanted to help his mother and his love, he wanted to free the slaves. In such he was told he could be given the power to do so if he followed the one he knew was his enemy, someone whom he believed his friend at first too. Someone who he had considered a mentor and who he saw as helping him where the jedi would not.  Twilight could be just as easily manipulated in this.  Her desires turned against her through the belief that her mentor could grant her the knowledge to help others while in reality she would be hurting them. Though unable to see it herself anymore.

 

Sunset shimmer only sought power, and more of it. She sought it for her own benefits and no one elses. She's more of a Darth Bane. Seeking power through knowledge, and  not caring who she has to trample along the way to get that power.

Edited December 26, 2013 by GrimCW

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

In both cases Celestia was there, in both cases she was the one who appeared to have brought them there, horn litup or not. She has full control and access to whatever gave them alicorn status. The elements weren't present for Cadence, so the idea that those decide is put aside.

 

 

So if you see me next to a guy who is holding a gun and pulling the trigger, killing another person, you will assume that I am murderer, even though I don't even have a gun in my hand? Also, you are assuming that she has this control over who gets alicorn'd. Why? Just because she trained them? I hold to my view that she knows what ponies need to become alicorns and is capable of steering them along the right path, but the final decision is not hers, it's up to the ponies to walk this path if they pass the trials.

 

And just because the Elements were not present when Cadance turned, it doesn't mean that Celestia did it. It a false dilemma. I think we don't have enough information to claim that Celestia is turning ponies into alicorns, at the least. Look, if Twilight just came back with wings next to Celestia, I would assume that Celestia did turn her into an alicorn, but we saw the scene and Celestia was not doing magic at the time, AND the magic that did turn Twilight came from within her AND it was not Celestia's "magic color". Like I said, it's something intrinsic to ponies and/or Equestria, the Elements being or not a necessary part of it that turns ponies into alicorns.

 

 

 

Again, both appointed, and raised by Celestia. Both heading to Celestia's word and control.

This discussion is pointless until we get over the above point...

 

 

 

Also Celestia does have control of the major military within the 'verse. With her control over Cadence (she's shown making decisions FOR the crystal empire more than once. From the appointing Cadence as its leader, to some of the guards shown and flags flown being hers), that means she also has some of the highest powers in equestria under her wing. Combined with Luna's guard (though we know little of it, or how big it may be) she really has a helluva force standing behind them. Not to mention the near mindlessness of her troops (In the S4 intro when the guards came to Twilight, they felt they could not act without a princess to guide them... Fairly useless military if put under the gun and all leaders are MIA)

 

What decisions did Celestia make for the Crystal Empire that would have been contrary to Cadance's will if she thought that Celestia was stepping over her authority? Did Celestia make Cadance the ruler in the Crystal Empire? The crystal ponies recognized Cadance as the Crystal Princess or something to the effect long before Celestia was all happy that the Crystal Empire was back. Just because that Celestia's crest was displayed in the Crystal Empire it doesn't mean that she is above Cadance. Look at the UN building. Lot's of flags there. This all just goes back to why they are princesses to begin with.

 

I think that you are assuming that if Cadance and Twilight suddenly needed the crystal pony guards to protect them from Celestia's guards, they would just run to Celestia's side or buckle under the pressure. Why? They may be just as loyal to Cadance as Celestia's guards are to her and just as good (or bad) as the other guards. Celestia doesn't have any superiority in the military.

 

Another thing: because the guards went to Twilight for directions doesn't mean that they can't think without the princesses. It means that they respect hierarchy. Instead of taking action without consulting to her, they went to her first, even if just to make sure. That means that they may just have opinions about what princesses are and aren't supposed to do. They are not changelings that keep hitting a shield with their faces just because the queen said so.

 

 

 

Actually I was talking Twilight. She sought power as well, she trained hard and saw/see's Celestia as her mentor and far more. Anything Celestia says goes without question.  Twilight has on more than one occasion had an illusion to being shut out by Celestia and fell broken and lost until pulled back by a friend. Only to repeat the adoration of her teacher afterward. Anakin only wanted to help others, he wanted to help his mother and his love. In such he was told he could be given the power to do so if he followed the one he knew was his enemy, someone whom he believed his friend at first too. Someone who he had considered a mentor and who he saw as helping him where the jedi would not.  Twilight could be just as easily manipulated in this.  Her desires turned against her through the belief that her mentor could grant her the knowledge to help others while in reality she would be hurting them. Though unable to see it herself anymore.   Sunset shimmer only sought power, and more of it. She sought it for her own benefits and no one elses. She's more of a Darth Bane. Seeking power through knowledge, and  not caring who she has to trample along the way to get that power.

 

 

You are missing my point that Twilight could have her opinion about Celestia shattered. If our Celestia is corrupt, Twilight's devotion goes to a fake image, not the real one, she would see if the truth was brought to her. You are referring to situations where Twilight feels that the flaw lies within her, and not Celestia. It's different.

 

And Anakin changed. He began like you said, but them he only wanted to help himself, so that he would not suffer the loss of his loved one. It's selfishness vs. selflessness, the conflict between the Dark Side of the Force and The Living Force. This doesn't apply to Twilight because she's never been forced to chose like that. Or was she? Honestly, I'm not sure. But the Twilight you just described in the end looks more like an idiot. Rainbow Dash would do that, not Twilight. But it's pointless because it depends on Twilight not realizing that the Celestia she loves is a lie.

 

PS: sorry for the incomplete post before... Click in the wrong place.

Edited December 26, 2013 by moonlightavenger

[purple.teal 50]

Ok, so I think the argument has turned from whether or not Celestia is bad in the first place, to what would happen If Celestia was found out to be bad.

The results would be terrifying.

Lets look at it in a "Deathbattle" viewpoint. Five contestants: Celestia, Luna, Twilight, Cadence, and Equestria's pony population itself.

 

Let’s compare stats then shall we:

Celestia has a very large army, most likely poorly trained. Since we are using Starwars as our reference now, Celestia has the imperial Fleet and storm troopers behind her.

Most of Celestia's guards would probably become cannon fodder for their princess while a few may defect to the citizenry. Unlike the Empire's army Celestia's forces will eventually run out. She can't clone them (actually it is unspecified what magic can actually do) unless she is willing to use the mirror pond. I believe that would lead to a continual degradation of her already nigh useless troops and do absolutely nothing to help her position. And she can't get them from an outside source. The people are already revolting, and drafting them into her army would only give them a way to siphon imperial resources to said rebels. Celestia herself is a powerful pony, wielding Alicorn magic with ease.

 

While we don't know which side Luna would actually join, I assume her ties to her sister will be the strongest and plan for her much better trained but far less numerous forces (Jabba the Hutt's mercenaries) To join Celestia. Which ever side Luna joins though, I think they will all follow her wholeheartedly. Who else seems to accept them? Luna is also like her sister just a bit less powerful.

 

Shining Armor, Cadence and the crystal ponies. They would all have the same goal of protecting homelands, but these guards will be wracked with divided loyalties. Different factions will assume they know best how to protect their familiesl. I assume that the guards would at the very least, split into three groups: Those that believe in the necessity of Celestia's continued support, Those that think Celestia has become a safety hazard, And those that hold honor and loyalty to their captain, Shining Armor, who in turn would follow his wife, Princess Cadence.This still leaves us wondering where her loyalties lie. To the princess who gave her the kingdom in the first place, or the Crystal Empire she now rules over? For argument's sake we will say she will do her best for her Empire. This still gives her the same choice as her army. To join Celestia if she thinks going against her will destroy her land, or remove the ally turned enemy who now threatens her kingdom.

 

The mane six represent the Jedi council. The best in all of Equestria, each able to take on armies singlehandedly, but a loss of a single one is dramatic. They are all across the board. Three scenarios can arise here: One, Twilight continues to believe Celestia is good and follows her and the others follow Twilight in turn. Two, Twilight attempts to join her mentor but the others agree that’s a bad idea and keep her from reaching Celestia. Third, Twilight and her friends realize that Celestia is a threat to harmony and attempt to take her down.

 

And Equestria’s people. The rebel alliance. A coalition of mismatched vigilantes calling for peace. They are nothing significant, mainly owing victories to outstanding soldiers who picked up slack of lesser ones.

 

The actual war:

Celestia has a problem.

Apple exporting businesses are getting mad over taxes and prices. After a lot of runaround they start rebellion. (sums up moonlightavenger’s spoiler.)

She begins looking for allies to help silence these farmer/merchants and finds that only her sister is willing to help. Cadence realizes Celestia as a threat and Twilight’s eyes have been opened. Celestia begins sending regiments out across Equestria in waves of freedom trampling hooves. Some are sent to Ponyville to nullify the threat of the Mane 6 traitor scum. Leaks within Celestia’s army help them escape ponyville and Celestia’s trap, however a few of Luna’s guardsmen catch them in the act and manage to eliminate one of the targets and executes the mole for treason. The other five escape and escape to refuge in the Cloud City Crystal Empire, where Cadence accommodates them. Soon Solar Imperial troops reach the crystal empire, led by none other than Celestia herself. She convinces Lando Cadence to turn in the Jedi Mane 6 in return for amnesty and safety of the Crystal lands. With most of the significant enemies out of play, The Solar Empire steamrolls the rebellion and returns life to its previous idyllic state.

 

Maybe over the years petty underground rebellion affiliates poke their head up and are promptly squashed, or maybe the gryphons do decide to get involved and they decide to help the rebellion, then dragons get involved in an attempt to make a land grab and burn everything then Discord realizes he himself has never in his entire life caused this much chaos and grabs a bag of popcorn and roasts a s’more over the dragon burned remains of Canterlot while watching the fireworks.

in the end, either Celestia wins, or Discord wins. Such a rebellion would be futile.

[SharpWit 2,771]

My reply to to this whole war discussion is France. From just before the french revolution, all the way through the Napoleonic era. A revolt, some satisfactory executions. the rise of an emperor, a new king, the emperor abdicating the king, a few major conflicts, and eventually what the poeple wanted from the beginning. Liberty.

 

P.S. Luna is just as powerful as Celestia, she's just a bit conservative about it. When you've been banished you've been put on the "keep an eye on this one" list.

[Hive King 2,001]

@@purple.teal, 

Celestia isn't the almighty goddess people paint her out to be. Nightmare Moon's best blasts were barely capable of destroying pillars. something Twilight can accomplish while enraged with ease. If Spike goes giant mode again, him killing Celestia and Luna is a very real possibility. The fact that if Celestia and Luna go down means the destruction of their entire faction means a lot when you realize that Giant Spike could very easily kill them both 

[Moonlight 7,288]

Princess Celestia is in no means a tyrant. She's one of the nicest ponies around especially as a ruler. She was even rather kind when punishing Twilight in Lesson Zero, talking to Fluttershy in Keep Calm and Flutter On, and even forgave Luna for the things she had done. Even when sending Luna to the moon she hesitated and tried any means before of simply banishing her but it had to be done, she was even crying for God's sake, that is NOT something a selfish tyrant would do.  She just changes the weather in some areas as most equines don't live in the EverFree Forest so there's no point. I know I'm sick as hell of seeing everyone calling her a tyrant even though she hasn't done a single tyrannical act. 

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

Ok, so I think the argument has turned from whether or not Celestia is bad in the first place, to what would happen If Celestia was found out to be bad.

 

No. For my argument, it was already assumed that Celestia was corrupt. Then I came up with the apples example to show my opinion that things wouldn't work for her because EVEN IF she was a tyrannical plothole, Equestria works in a way that she can't just get away with exploring the simpler ponies that think that everything she does is good.

 

This depends on how she became an alicorn and how other alicorn princesses are made. It was implicitly assumed that Celestia never rose to be an alicorn like Twilight and Cadance so that she could be corrupt, because the "system" that makes alicorns ensures that they are both competent and are good ponies, as per the example of Twilight's journey.

 

The comparison to Star Wars was made to show how Twilight could be tricked into thinking that Celestia is good, and would follow her, but I argued that she would not fall for this, assuming that it was not Celestia that made her an alicorn and that she would see through the false image of the benevolent irreproachable ruler, if she saw that Celestia was being corrupt. I said that Twilight is different from Anakin, because she is more selfless than he is and would not put her own feelings above those of others.

 

My point is that even if Celestia is corrupt, if the alicorns are not made by her, then she can't bring Twilight and Cadance (Luna was kind of left out of the discussion because for all this to work she is already inside Celestia's scheme or she is too scared to do anything or doesn't care) to her side. Therefore, there is a conflict. Then I said that the conflict is not one-sided because Cadance has her own guard and the younger princesses are trusted equally by the ponies, because they would know that they deserve their position.

 

Again, already assuming that Celestia is corrupt, she is not deciding, ultimately who becomes alicorn princesses, and that she didn't rise to be an alicorn like Twilight and Cadance did, because if she did, then she just would not be corrupt. Also, all this discussion about the war between the princesses is ignoring that the the other nations are not going to stand idly. If Corrupt Celestia's image of being irreproachable is shattered, other nations might feel threatened because they would question every other one of Celestia's actions in the past. More of her "dirties" would start to come up.

 

Anyway, my guess is that, if there is a war, it will be practically between Cadance and Celestia. Because in this scenario, Twlight is a figurehead, but she has nothing: the Elements of Harmony are gone, Luna is either a puppet or too scared to do anything, Celestia has her own royal guard but completely lost the support of the populace, while Cadance (and Twilight) are their champions behind Cadance's own guard. If it counts for anything, I bet that Shining would stay on Cadance's side.

 

Also, Celestia can't send her guards away from her to do anything (dependent on the number of her guards, of course) because she needs them to protect herself from a LOT of angry ponies. The citizenry is not going to sit idly looking out the windows. They'll be choosing sides, either pissed that their magical semi-Utopian land was being abused or because those ponies there were being explored by Celestia's scheme riled them up against the princess. Another problem, is that Celestia's guards also believed the same lie that Twilight believed. They too are going to be pissed and Celestia needs to worry even with her own forces.

 

You can't compare Celestia's forces to Republican Grand Army because the clone troopers were an elite force that trumped everything else. Celestia's guards are good enough to protect her from the citizenry, but they are on equal footing against Cadance's guards. And honestly, I don't think that the citizens are calling for peace... In my idea, they would be calling for Celestia's blood. She is a liar, that has abused her "sacred position". .......... She probably said at sometime that the ponies can eat cake.... XD

 

In the end, I don't think that it comes to "rebellion". It's open war between two powers that can very much stand on their own. And Discord is probably watching from a couch eating the bucket that holds his popcorn.

 

Again... all of this already assume that Celestia is corrupt, which I doubt.

 

EDIT: I think that Celestia loses. I can't see anyone beside some petty nobles that she was favoring and are not too scared joining her, because she was lying to everybody.

Edited December 27, 2013 by moonlightavenger

[Lunatic Cake 1,618]

What exactly does Celestia do anyway except for raising the sun? We heard about her "royal duties" several times yet we never get to see what she does. I mean she even has the time to go visit Twilight and her friends once in a while so she can't be that busy with her royal duties can she? Also we pretty much know that Celestia loves to fool other ponies, especially in that Philamena episode. She simply wants to enjoy herself once in a while and does so by fuelling the fire.

[Lightwing 12,978]

What exactly does Celestia do anyway except for raising the sun? We heard about her "royal duties" several times yet we never get to see what she does. I mean she even has the time to go visit Twilight and her friends once in a while so she can't be that busy with her royal duties can she? Also we pretty much know that Celestia loves to fool other ponies, especially in that Philamena episode. She simply wants to enjoy herself once in a while and does so by fuelling the fire.

 

I think that this season,Celesta need an episode for god sake.I don't know,a plot like on this fanfic would be wonderful for a celestia episode,don't you think?

 

http://www.fimfiction.net/story/20685/sunny-skies-all-day-long

[Ianpiersonjdavis 513]

In the show and my headcanon, I see her as a benovelent ruler.

 

But, if the IDW comics are canon...then based on what I've seen in the "Reflections" arc, she comes across to me as a spoiled, self-centered, vindictive brat through her actions and dialogue, as well as a huge hypocrite.

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,162]

I see her as benevolent. I mean yeah some of her decisions are questionable, but she tries to do for the good of the people.

 

In the show and my headcanon, I see her as a benovelent ruler.

 

But, if the IDW comics are canon...then based on what I've seen in the "Reflections" arc, she comes across to me as a spoiled, self-centered, vindictive brat through her actions and dialogue, as well as a huge hypocrite.

 

I wouldn't go that far. I mean yeah she makes some serious mistakes, but considering her situation during Luna's 'dark time' pre-NMM I can understand why she did what she did. As someone who had a love that was far away; I can sort of sympathize. Yeah, she ended up putting her subjects in harms way, but again, I think she's learned from it.

 

My heart still weeps for AU Sombra though.