Princess Celestia: Benevolent Ruler or Selfish Tyrant?

[Hive King 2,001]

@, 

She was already bringing out her eternal night card, even before Nightmare Moon. Eternal night means no food, no oxygen, and freezing temperatures. 

@@Mikami, 

The comics don't count as canon but even if they did, Luna was still smashing balconies and acting like a child before the Nightmare

[Side Bird 566]

@Evil Dragon Master

uh?! Look it's Equestria not earth. I bet they could make some food that grows from night. Kinda like in the stories past sins. They could make artificial sunlight most likely, and find a way to breathe. You don't know fir a fact they have oxygen. It's a magical world, any things possible. To counter freezing temp, they could do a multitude of things. Again, magic. With spells and work they could on

Edited December 25, 2013 by Princess Luna~<3

[GrimCW 658]

The comics don't count as canon but even if they did, Luna was still smashing balconies and acting like a foal before the Nightmare

 

They do, but don't. The official word is they CAN, but aren't necessarily. So its a grey area atm. This is held in place by how neither the comics nor the show step on one another. While they link, neither directly refutes the others stories.

It was also stated that they are canon if people want them to be. Which tbh only compounds the issue..

 

 

 

She was already bringing out her eternal night card, even before Nightmare Moon

 

 

Care to point out where this comes from? As I said before, aside from the tiny glimpse seen by twilight we know nothing of this time. And from what was shown, it appeared she was already NMM when she was destroying things, she was more or less in disguise as her normal self until revealed to Celestia as NMM.

Regardless, If she was acting out prior to becoming NMM, this also furthers the probability she was being manipulated by an outside force since this is shown to be entirely against her normal character in both pre-nmm, and post nmm, scenes.

 

Also as I said before, SOME plant life can survive without sunlight, and plenty of fungal life will strive on. Life always finds a way regardless. And given Equestria has magic, its not to say they can't simulate sunlight in some ways themselves.

Edited December 25, 2013 by GrimCW

[Hive King 2,001]

@,

Faust herself confirmed that the eternal night would kill everything. I don't remember where, but she said it

They do, but don't. The official word is they CAN, but aren't necessarily. So its a grey area atm. This is held in place by how neither the comics nor the show step on one another. While they link, neither directly refutes the others stories.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Care to point out where this comes from? As I said before, aside from the tiny glimpse seen by twilight we know nothing of this time. And from what was shown, it appeared she was already NMM when she was destroying things, she was more or less in disguise as her normal self until revealed to Celestia as NMM.

 

Also as I said before, SOME plant life can survive without sunlight, and plenty of fungal life will strive on. Life always finds a way regardless.

Nothing will survive when the planet becomes a frozen wasteland that only gods can live in. At the very least ponies are gone.

 

Where do you get the idea that Nightmare Moon was disguised as Luna? It's clear that Luna raised the night without permission and was threatening eternal night, THEN she got infected.

[GrimCW 658]

Nothing will survive when the planet becomes a frozen wasteland that only gods can live in. At the very least ponies are gone.   Where do you get the idea that Nightmare Moon was disguised as Luna? It's clear that Luna raised the night without permission and was threatening eternal night, THEN she got infected.

 

Again, life always finds a way. If being frozen were enough than no life would exist in the most northern or most southern areas of earth. 

And again, the ponies have magic to keep themselves afloat.

Killing everything doesn't make sense for NMM's purpose since she wanted to rule over equestria. Its entirely contradictory to her whole intent.

 

Was it clear? where? when?

Again, we only saw the one moment JUST before she became NMM, and several well before it. She appeared already influenced in the just before, and even stated she wasn't Luna BEFORE she changed to NMM.

 

In all points prior and post NMM, she does not act as such. And its not uncommon for a new threat to remain hidden until its reached its desired peak where it believes it can win. Frontal assault is not a good idea. Especially when facing obviously superior forces.

Edited December 25, 2013 by GrimCW

[Hive King 2,001]

@@GrimCW,

No sunlight would make the Antarctic look like a volcano heat wise.

Magic means crap when they all freeze to death, which they have little defense against as seen with the Wendigos

Nightmare Moon was an idiot, her overlooking a small fact isn't OOC when she has an ego the size of the Moon and a tactical mind similar to a toddler.

So the Nightmare revealed itself randomly for no reason? Celestia isn't Nightmare Moon's superior, they are roughly equal in power.

[GrimCW 658]

So the Nightmare revealed itself randomly for no reason? Celestia isn't Nightmare Moon's superior, they are roughly equal in power.

Magic could be used to help keep them warm, and the windigo fueled themselves off the rivalry of the three races, increasing with their hate and trumping the power that each may have had. They themselves were of magical essence, and as such able to combat and defeat it as well.

 

She didn't do it randomly, she did it after she had refused to lower the moon. Obviously when the time was right as it prevented Celestia from raising the sun somehow.

 

And under normal circumstances Celestia is often played as superior to Luna. Which moreover makes the NMF of the comics seem like a better idea since they would've had to manipulate Luna before they were able to control her and make her NMM and of equal power. 

Edited December 25, 2013 by GrimCW

[purple.teal 50]

I don't think that Luna/Nightmare Moon would have gotten the chance to Permanently raise the moon in the first place. If you believe the comics are canon and she was corrupted by an outside force with no hope of redemption, then it would end up like it did, with Celestia banishing her corrupted sister using the elements of harmony.

If the comics are irrelevant and Luna willingly went to the dark side, I think that after a few days, (weeks maybe?) Luna would realize what she was doing to the populace and stop. She wanted to be loved by the ponies, why would she kill them? Make them remember she existed perhaps, but I'm sure after a week of her sister begging and appeasing Luna, things would return to normal. (The latter option relies also on the fact that Celestia believed her sister could be saved by words and not blasting her with a friendship cannon.)

Edited December 26, 2013 by purple.teal

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

 

 

If the comics are irrelevant and Luna willingly went to the dark side, I think that after a few days, (weeks maybe?) Luna would realize what she was doing to the populace and stop. She wanted to be loved by the ponies, why would she kill them? Make them remember she existed perhaps, but I'm sure after a week of her sister begging and appeasing Luna, things would return to normal. (The latter option relies also on the fact that Celestia believed her sister could be saved by words and not blasting her with a friendship cannon.)

 

What is stopping Luna from thinking that they still don't love her enough? The problem is that we know too little of the situation to make any judgement. It may be the case that the ponies did love Luna, but she didn't see it like that. What did she want from them? "to be loved" is too vague. For all we know, Nightmare Moon could be surrounded by ponies begging for mercy and she would shrug them off saying that they don't really love her, they just want their precious sun back.

 

Also, the the story does say that Celestia tried to argue with her, but she just wouldn't listen. But again, we don't know anything about what was said and done other than Celestia used the Elements against Luna.

[GrimCW 658]

 

 

What is stopping Luna from thinking that they still don't love her enough?

 

 

her actions and the end of "Luna Eclipsed" when she finally came out of hiding and joined the show in full for the first time since the series intro for one.

Where she learned that the ponies loved the nightmare night festivities. She almost had a relapse, but didn't follow through when she was shown how much they actually liked her, and her night.

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

About the song...

I think it's silly... Like Molestia.

 

It's like people think that Discord would make a world that is actually good to live in. I prefer to live in a place where the world around me works how it's supposed to and not so random that any accumulated knowledge about the world, that lets people (ponies) predict how things will happen and construct a civilization that is better for everyone involved in the long run.

 

This is not even a defense of Celestia. It's arguing that Discord was not even a ruler: he as a freaking irresponsible god that takes no value in anything but his own entertainment.

 

 

her actions and the end of "Luna Eclipsed" when she finally came out of hiding and joined the show in full for the first time since the series intro for one.

Where she learned that the ponies loved the nightmare night festivities. She almost had a relapse, but didn't follow through when she was shown how much they actually liked her, and her night.

 

Sorry, I should have said "Nightmare Moon", instead of "Luna".

 

But it doesn't matter. I'll agree with you though, but this is after one thousand years of banishment (we don't know how did that work) and whatever it is that the Elements of harmony did to her. If anything, I think that this gives strength to the idea that she was possessed.

 

Anyway, I like to think that it was both things: she was unhappy AND she was possessed. One fueled the other in a vicious circle. Today, Luna is not so unhappy because she sees that the ponies do like her. Really... Night life in Equestria can't be so different today than it was 1000 years ago.

[SharpWit 2,855]

The song is about her after discord is taken down, and how she maintains harmony through controlling everything. Ponies are fragile like us humans, and we try to create a perfect and safe environment,as does Celestia. She holds the power of a Tyrant but she rules benevolently as we can see from the everyday lives of her subjects. Her system of rule isn't the best since their defense is out right terrible but maintaining the piece with in her best interests and she's doing a fine job. Though her rule may be like that of a tyrant without us really knowing, since people, or ponies in this case, do what they are told as long as they are given what they are wanted, as we can see during world war 2, in nazi ruled germany

[purple.teal 50]

I believe that Celestia is a ruler with the interests of her citizen ponies at heart, but I think that she is using methods that I might not always agree with.

 

 

Though her rule may be like that of a tyrant without us really knowing, since people, or ponies in this case, do what they are told as long as they are given what they are wanted, as we can see during world war 2, in nazi ruled germany

I never thought about comparing it to Nazi rule, and I probably wouldn't. I don't think she would even come close to that.

I hope.

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

Just thought of something. So here is a wall of text if anyone cares. XD

 

"Tyrant" nowadays is used for a ruler who is oppressive and cruel (in any way) and may be ruling as an absolutist monarch. A tyrant does not share power, doesn't care about welfare of their people, and probably was not elected by ANY democratic means, and if he was, he probably took steps to never leave his throne again and surrounded himself with people that will further cement his power ans ensure that, by rule of law or simple terrorism is never challenged in his position, OR a combination of both.

 

I probably could have gone further, but I'm a physician, not a political scientist... XD

 

Let's see how Celestia compares to this. First, she is not a monarch: she is a diarch. She rules with her sister and they share their power. The show does not give any indication of how this works but the comics made it clear that Celestia rules of the day and Luna over the night. But they could be abusing their position... Spoiler in the comics, Luna's edition of the micro-series...

 

The comic committed the atrocity of showing Luna and Fancypants playing chess using living ponies as the pieces. Seriously.... It was obviously done for comedic effect but the ponies didn't seem happy with it. Quite annoyed actually. This could be used to say that Celestia probably doesn't do that sort of thing.

 

So I don't think that Celestia is being selfish or anything with her powers over equestrian government and over the citizenry.

 

But she does decide stuff off the top of her head: she just decided to take Discord to Ponyville and free him. If Equestria has a parliament or some sort of government chamber I want to know what did she do to make representatives agree with freeing Discord. I can imagine ponies laughing her out of the court when she said "Hey, let's free Discord. You know... I have uses for his magic." So I guess that Celestia makes decisions and these go unchallenged. She wants stuff... Ponies make stuff happen.

 

Was she elected by democratic means? Probably not. I think it's unfair for me argue that in Equestria (unlike our world) princesses come to power BECAUSE they are competent leaders and understand what makes Equestria tick, like Twilight and Cadance because I think that Luna and Celestia are different.than those two. But this is another topic. The important part here is that she is sitting in the throne (and so was Luna) for we don't know how many year, but Celestia has ruled alone by 1000 years. Maybe after Discord Equestria was so screwed up that ponies needed somepony that actually knew what they were doing to bring civilization back again. In this case, equestrian government may have just grown around the two sisters, as facilitators, to avoid bureaucracy. Of course we don't know, but I think that it's fair to assume that until the show gives us new information. The point is: democracy is not relevant in this case.

 

But, could ponies even know how to take the sisters out of power if they felt the need? Probably yes. If ponies didn't like what was happening they would not have come to Twilight's coronation, they would not gush all over Celestia rising the sun during Summer Sun Celebration. And personally, I feel that the show makes it clear that the common pony loves Celestia and she gets no problem from the nobility. Probably Luna too, now. Even if she is using them as chess pieces... And I do feel that ponies would know how to take the sisters out of power if they wanted because they are not all ignorant. There are ponies like Fancypants (that seems like a nice pony AND educated), and Twilight, who would be the greatest evidence that Celestia is doing what she does with the ponies' best interests at heart. She just guided another pony in the path to become a princess.

 

It could be that Celestia and Luna are in power for so long that they've become Equestria in a sense. I mean, if a pony looks up in the sky and seems the sun, they think of Celestia. (I'm not going into the fact that unicorns raised the sun and the moon in the past... it's not relevant). It may be just unthinkable for a pony to challenge them. But that is not really the case. She WAS challenged and she WAS defeated by Chrysalis. So, I doubt that the ponies are just resigned to be stuck with the princesses.

 

If you want to know what tyrant ponies look like, take a gander at Sombra. Nightmare Moon. If you want a leader that is doing the wrong stuff, Chrysalis is your pony.... Changeling. If you want a plothole that cares only for himself: Blueblood. An incompetent leader that would abuse it's power: Trixie.

 

Come to think of it, part of the problem seems to be that people judge Celestia as if she was a "real world politician". We all know that if a senator or deputy is doing something, he probably is doing it because he is being paid to do so... For us, it seems impossible that someone HAS power and DOESN'T abuse it for self gain.

 

Man... It's 03:47 and I'm defending a fictional pony princess as if she was my goddess... What has this cartoon done to me?! 

[GrimCW 658]

But, could ponies even know how to take the sisters out of power if they felt the need? Probably yes. If ponies didn't like what was happening they would not have come to Twilight's coronation, they would not gush all over Celestia rising the sun during Summer Sun Celebration. And personally, I feel that the show makes it clear that the common pony loves Celestia and she gets no problem from the nobility.

 

 

I agree they probably do enjoy the two lead princesses, but at the same, who's to say they aren't conditioned to love them?

There is the possibility they are all raised to believe that they are purely there for the good of all, and many would easily follow this. Best comparison sadly I can find is just view how cults and religion work in many cases. Not all mind you, but in many more disturbing moments. People are raised to believe their leaders would never lie to them, and purely are there to help and guide them. They are taught to love them unconditionally, and as such will do so.

 

So what if the ponies are all raised to love and respect the princesses regardless of their true feelings, or the actions made? This would also make them believe that anypony chosen as a princess by Celestia MUST be also that good...

 

More obviously not, but speculation is why we're here no?

Edited December 26, 2013 by GrimCW

[SharpWit 2,855]

I believe that Celestia is a ruler with the interests of her citizen ponies at heart, but I think that she is using methods that I might not always agree with.

 

 

I never thought about comparing it to Nazi rule, and I probably wouldn't. I don't think she would even come close to that.

I hope.

I' have a tendency for comparing anything towards something Nazi related, for better or for worse. She probably wouldn't go even close to that far but something more like control of what is taught in schools and openly published. What they don't know won't hurt them and protecting her subjects is of the ,,, utmost importance? she's flunked on a few things but y'all get it

[purple.teal 50]

 

 

What they don't know won't hurt them and protecting her subjects is of the ,,, utmost importance?

 

What is Celestia ultimately trying to protect them from? One thing that always gets me is the insane amount of guards that seem to appear in so many episodes (Their incompetence is a kicker). Yes I understand human leaders all have their guards, the United States President has his not-so-secret service and The Pope has the Swiss Guard (and yes I understand that I compared Celestia to real world leaders even after moonlightavenger pointed out it isn't a good match). If the world is a peaceful one though, would there be need for them?

Have they even done anything other than stand still in polished armor? 

In addition, every other villain that has come up so far she has treated as a test for Twilight, directly calling the entire battle with King Sombra a test. What force could she possibly be building up our new princess to face?

So she keeps has a large standing military, constantly prepares her student for a "Boss fight", but yet never mentions once to any of her subjects her worries? Could it possibly be that she herself doesn't know?

 

 

 

 

 

In this case, equestrian government may have just grown around the two sisters, as facilitators, to avoid bureaucracy.

 

This has nothing to do with the current argument but are you suggesting that they created more government to avoid Bureaucracy? 

[Jammo 986]

Oh Celestia's no tyrant. I've read about Tyrants. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Dynasty. Evil men.

You can make the argument that Celestia is corrupt, or a troll.. She's not a tyrant. I don't use that word liberally.

[purple.teal 50]

Okay. Sorry to offend.    I am not directly calling her a Tyrant though, I think she is a good person and princess, she just might have some skeletons in the closet I want to know about... 

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

I agree they probably do enjoy the two lead princesses, but at the same, who's to say they aren't conditioned to love them?

There is the possibility they are all raised to believe that they are purely there for the good of all, and many would easily follow this. Best comparison sadly I can find is just view how cults and religion work in many cases. Not all mind you, but in many more disturbing moments. People are raised to believe their leaders would never lie to them, and purely are there to help and guide them. They are taught to love them unconditionally, and as such will do so.

 

So what if the ponies are all raised to love and respect the princesses regardless of their true feelings, or the actions made? This would also make them believe that anypony chosen as a princess by Celestia MUST be also that good...

 

More obviously not, but speculation is why we're here no?

You are wrong in saying that that Celestia chose those ponies. Best examples are Twilight and Cadance. We don't even need to go to other ponies that seem to be good, like Fancypants or the other Mane Six.

 

I put the next part under the spoiler tag because it's big and it may not be necessary after what I just said.

 

 

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that Celestia is a corrupt bitch. There is a noblepony from Fillydelphia, Apple Stock, that owns "Filly Apple Farms" and his farm is selling his apples all over Equestria without taxation: Celestia is keeping the Equestrian IRS off his back and in return he is giving a lot of "donation" to the royal treasures. One day Celestia gives a city made of crystal to her niece as a wedding gift. "Where did this city come from??" the journalists from the Hoofington Post demand to know.

"It vanished one thousand years ago. Now it's back. I should know... I was there. in fact, me and my dear little sister saved the town from a terrible tyrant! Isn't that right Luna?"

"Of course! Big Sis never does anything wrong! Please don't hit me!".

Poor Cadance just believes Celestia because she is the most kind and benevolent pony in Equestria.

 

Of course the common ponies, possibly Applejack and her family, could be doing loads of Bits by selling their apples to the same ponies buying Filly Apple products, if there there was a fair competition. It could even be that AJ's apples would be cheaper to the consumer because Ponyville is closer to Vanhoover than it is to Fillydelphia. A pony like Applejack could look at the numbers and see that something is not right. If she pays a load of Bits just to get her apples there, how can the other pony sell his apples for less than the taxes she's paying?! Now her lack of understanding about how this market works may stop her from figuring out that something is wrong.

 

But there are other ponies that can figure this out and raise a stink on all this: the ponies selling the apples in Vanhoover. They look at the the prices they get the apples for reselling and realize that for some reason the apples from Fillydelphia are way cheaper than they should be. Some of these ponies understand that the difference are the taxes paid. Ponies that understand the system will see that Filly Apples Farm is paying a lot less taxes than Sweet Apple Acres. But they know that the Princess is taking care of them and surely she knows that this is happening and she certainly has a good reason to allow this. After all, the Equestria Daily (conservative media, or even government subsidiary) says that the owner of Filly Apple Farms makes big donations so that the Princesses can help homeless foals. Yes... Celestia is in her throne and all is right in Equestria. 

 

Of course the other producers, the big producers, that understand the system, feel that it is unfair. Celestia is giving that bastard a good time while they have to pay full taxes to get their apples all across Equestria. They think that this is ridiculous and they get to the fight. They go the Solar Court and they demand that they get tax reductions too! They demand a fair market! So Celestia needs to deal with them. She needs to pay them to shut up, but this is going to be too expensive, and she'd be losing the very money the scheme giver her. She can give them the same benefits, but then Stock Apple just lost his advantage, and Celestia still needs his "donations" so she can rebuild her favorite cafe in Canterlot that the Changelings destroyed. Another way of dealing with this is getting the Royal Guard to crackdown on them... But this breaks her aura of benevolence. Getting some dirt in these ponies is going to take time and if she does that, the problem doesn't go away... It'll just get worse because they won't shut up about this, and this is going to get ever more expensive! The best she can do is give them the freaking exemption and the small producers can go to Tartarus for all she cares.

 

Does any of this look familiar? This works because the government works unchecked by holding all the agencies that could do anything about this and the population doesn't understand how the system works. But Cadance just got a visit from a local big producer. He wants to know why in the hoof he is paying loads of Bits to get his apples to Vanhoover, while those ponies from the south aren't. Cadance takes a look at the numbers an them she takes a trip to Ponyville and in the next week Celestia gets a visit from the Mane Six and she just got a 1000 years vacation to the sun, Luna is going back to the moon because she is conniving. And Cadance just brought down Equestria Daily because it was doing a disservice to the people. Stock Apple vanished and the other producers just don't know what went wrong.

 

Equestria is not made only of stupid ponies. If somepony shoved to Twilight's face proof that Celestia is not doing what she is supposed to be doing, she would be, at the least, upset AND she has the power to correct this. Main reason for this is because Twilight didn't get to be princess because Celestia made her a Princess. The Elements of Harmony, that are beyond Celestia's control, made her a princess. So, she is guaranteed to be "good pony". Cadance didn't get to be a Princess because of Celestia either. Both of them were "ascended" for the lack of a better word by some mysterious equestrian magic.

 

 

Even if Celestia is doing something wrong, she can't just get away with it.

[SharpWit 2,855]

What is Celestia ultimately trying to protect them from? One thing that always gets me is the insane amount of guards that seem to appear in so many episodes (Their incompetence is a kicker). Yes I understand human leaders all have their guards, the United States President has his not-so-secret service and The Pope has the Swiss Guard (and yes I understand that I compared Celestia to real world leaders even after moonlightavenger pointed out it isn't a good match). If the world is a peaceful one though, would there be need for them?

Have they even done anything other than stand still in polished armor? 

In addition, every other villain that has come up so far she has treated as a test for Twilight, directly calling the entire battle with King Sombra a test. What force could she possibly be building up our new princess to face?

So she keeps has a large standing military, constantly prepares her student for a "Boss fight", but yet never mentions once to any of her subjects her worries? Could it possibly be that she herself doesn't know?

 

 

 

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with the current argument but are you suggesting that they created more government to avoid Bureaucracy? 

She would have a need for the increased amount of guards because as in competent as they are, they have the appearance of being formidable. Think of it like a nut. Nuts are hard right. Well pistachios aren't. you can eat those easy. But given the task to finish a whole giant bowl of them. Now that's going to take some time. But the enemy doesn't know this. They only hear the word nut, and something like a walnut pops into there heads. (this is still a metaphor or sorts) Then a big bowl full of walnuts, and that sounds like a real challenge. So the majority backs off. Now the thing with the "test". Now without the elements of harmony under her control, Celestia, as powerful as she may be, is vulnerable. (uh oh, here's another metaphor) Celestia is that tough guy at school whose won a few fights, but that last one left her with an injury. so if she got in another fight, she'd be screwed. so she has to talk big, fill the other people who might be up to the challenge of taking her spot, with bad thoughts. If that doesn't work, you get your pals to rough em up. That's where Twilight and her friends come in. So it's a test to see if they can meet your expectations. If it turn's out that she doesn't know what's gonna happen and she's been preparing Twilight for this invisible threat for nothing, she's gotta think fast. Maybe she'll play her cards so she looks weak and hopes somebody attacks, and if equestria wins the fight, Twilight has her own kingdom to rule. But that's digging to deep for a kids show. But that's the goal, to make a show, and impress your audience, so as to have the upper hand

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

 

 

This has nothing to do with the current argument but are you suggesting that they created more government to avoid Bureaucracy? 

 

 

No. This is not "more government". This is minimally necessary government. Because they can have a governmental machine around them that solves stuff without needing their direct intervention by transferring authority. I like a system I created for an online RPG where the Princesses created one legislative-executive branch and a judiciary branch of the government that are organized in the local, regional and national spheres. This way ponies create their own laws on the municipal and regional spheres while subject to legislation from the national sphere, controlled by the Princesses.

 

You see, I believe that, in a way, governments evolved to prevent corruption. So, the less power in a single person, the better. If in Equestria the ponies just trust the princesses to make the right decisions, their government would have grown around them to speed things up, not to keep power from them.

[GrimCW 658]

You are wrong in saying that that Celestia chose those ponies. Best examples are Twilight and Cadance.

 

Celestia chose Twilight and Cadence herself. So.. example of what? In both cases it was Celestia who called upon them and granted them alicorn status.

Heck, she personally chose and trained twilight herself, and pretty much raised Cadence since she was young, even to the point shes considered adopted by Celestia.

 

Even with the EQG story, Sunset shimmer found that celestia had the power to make others into alicorns (not being granted this is why she supposedly left). Its celestia's choice as to who is elevated and who is not.

 

 

 

If somepony shoved to Twilight's face proof that Celestia is not doing what she is supposed to be doing, she would be, at the least, upset AND she has the power to correct this.

 

 

But would twilight be tempted to believe it as true? She idolizes celestia, and may not believe the evidence if it were shoved in her face. Would she join, or turn? Celestia holds the higher power, and given the elements of harmony are gone now, Twilight has little power left outside of what Celestia gave her.

Evidence or not, would she believe that random pony over Celestia when confronted? or would she believe celestia's excuses?

 

Star wars did that scenario in Ep3 where anakin learned palpatine was the man he was hunting all along, and despite this, His adoration and wish to be granted more power kept him from harming palpatine himself. Right to the point of betraying his own friends and allies and taking arms alongside the enemy and murdering innocents as he went.

 

Twilight and Cadence owe their allegience to Celestia, and Celestia holds the higher seat of power.

She is in total control. She granted and she can take back.

 

At best the others could try to rebel, but when push comes to shove who will the majority rally around? Their long standing leader that has brought them 1000 years of peace, or some new comers that appear to be in a power play?

Edited December 26, 2013 by GrimCW

[Scootalove 10,692]

Celestia is far from a selfish tyrant. If she was a tyrant, she would be a cruel and oppressive ruler who exercises her power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way. Her subjects would be in fear if they tried to go against her, and they would try to rebel if they could. I don't categorize Celestia as a tyrant, just an example.

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

Celestia chose Twilight and Cadence herself. So.. example of what? In both cases it was Celestia who called upon them and granted them alicorn status. Heck, she personally chose and trained twilight herself.   Even with the EQG story, Sunset shimmer found that celestia had the power to make others into alicorns (not being granted this is why she supposedly left). Its celestia's choice as to who is elevated and who is not.

 

 

I just went through the Annual, because the first arc deals with this. Is it the source of you claim that Celestia makes alicorns?

 

In Sunset Shimmer's and Celestia's dialogue after Sunset goes to the library, she does demand that Celestia make her an alicorn. Taken out of context, this would say that it is Celestia who makes ponies into alicorns. But this would be ignoring "Magical Mystery Cure". The magic that finally turned Twilight into an alicorn came from within Twilight and Celestia's horn was not even shining at the moment and it was clearly the Elements of Harmony that took Twilight to that place. Also, there is Cadance, who had no contact with Celestia until the very moment of her transformation, if she did come to be an alicorn as told in the "Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell" book.

 

If anything, Celestia has shown Twilight which path to thread just as she did with Sunset Shimmer, however, the second was cut from it because she was becoming selfish and ruthless. If Celestia is guilty of anything it is of not being able to properly guide Sunset Shimmer.

 

 

But would twilight be tempted to believe it as true? She idolizes celestia, and may not believe the evidence if it were shoved in her face. Would she join, or turn? Celestia holds the higher power, and given the elements of harmony are gone now, Twilight has little power left outside of what Celestia gave her. Evidence or not, would she believe that random pony over Celestia when confronted? or would she believe celestia's excuses?   Star wars did that scenario in Ep3 where anakin learned palpatine was the man he was hunting all along, and despite this, His adoration and wish to be granted more power kept him from harming palpatine himself. Right to the point of betraying his own friends and allies and taking arms alongside the enemy and murdering innocents as he went.   Twilight and Cadence owe their allegience to Celestia, and Celestia holds the higher seat of power. She is in total control. She granted and she can take back.   At best the others could try to rebel, but when push comes to shove who will the majority rally around? Their long standing leader that has brought them 1000 years of peace, or some new comers that appear to be in a power play?

 

 

 

If we were talking about Sunset Shimmer, I'd agree to your SW analogy. Sunset Shimmer may even be worse than Anakin because she sees Celestia a ladder and not a mentor. I may be putting Twilight in a pedestal here but it is exactly what the show did. And Twilight is not trusting a random pony in my little scenario. She is trusting hard evidence presented by Cadance. It's the same as a trusted scientist that works in the field, making a claim that is plausible. And it's true that Twilight adores Celestia (Cadance probably does too), but it is because she sees Celestia as perfect and benevolent. What she is seeing now directly contradicts this belief, and it's not just somepony's opinion, it's real. I'm assuming that she'll not like to know that her mentor lied to her all the time: the Celestia she loves is the kind and irreproachable Celestia, an image that would shatter if she is shown that this Celestia is false.

 

Now, even with the Elements gone, it still doesn't matter because Twilight and Cadance may each have just as much pull with the public (both the rich and educated or otherwise) as Celestia, exactly because it's this mysterious equestrian magic that makes alicorns and not Celestia (assuming you accept my first point). But sure, if the Elements are gone things are not as simple as "rainbowing'" Celestia into the sun. However Celestia isn't all powerful, in magical terms, nor political terms and not even in military terms: Cadance has a royal guard of her own. And this is just talking within Equestrian borders. What are the other leaders thinking if suddenly the perfect Celestia is unmasked?

 

The coup orchestrated by Palpatine works because he is granted special powers in a time of war, and was expected to step down after. The Republic is a gigantic beast of a government that is subject to the senate. So if anything happens it is because the senate agreed on it, which is good because there are supposed to be representatives for all planetary systems. But them they gave this one guy power over all the senate.There is nothing above or in the same level to the Supreme Chancellor anymore. So he decides stuff needs to happen and the gigantic government machine just makes it happen because it's necessary to win the war. Even the Jedi are doing what he wants them to do, because they think that Palpatine would be taken down, by force if necessary. They just didn't know that they would fall like flies before him, nor did they think possible that one of their own would betray them.The Republic thought Palpatine was their Princess Celestia and the Jedi Council thought they had things under control.

 

In Equestria, even if Luna is a weakling puppet manipulated by Celestia, which I doubt. Celestia has other equals. And worse, she doesn't have an elite military force that trumps anything else to enforce her will. Even if she is willing to break her image of benevolent ruler. I bet my ass the gryphons would have something to say if suddenly they feel threatened because Celestia is going Palpatine on Equestria. And again: Celestia doesn't have full popular support like Palpatine had, because there are other princesses, and she doesn't really have a bargaining chip over them like Palpatine, who had Padmé to rub in Anakin's face.