Evilshy feels like playing devils advocate (and speaking 3rd person, apparently)

[Evilshy 5,090]

DISCLAIMER: THINGS I SAY IN THIS THREAD ARE NOT NECESSARILY MY ACTUAL BELIEFS. EVERYTHING I SAY IN THIS THREAD IS FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, I WILL ARGUE BOTH SIDES OF ISSUES, I WILL MAKE USE ARGUMENTS THAT I MAY OR MAY NOT DISAGREE WITH, AND I WILL NOT TELL YOU WHICH I AM DOING AT THE TIME.

 

 

Did everypony read that? Good. So you know that if I say horribly insensitive or offensive things here, I probably am saying them just to get you others talking? Good.

 

The point of this thread is NOT to piss you all off. The point of this thread is for me to bring up controversial shit so we can get an idea of why different people think certain things are right or wrong and why. I'm promoting intelligent debate here, not a flame war. At the first sign of a flame war, I'll ask a mod to lock it, and then I will be disappointed in you

 

 

So, first controversial subject: aiding people in 3rd world countries.

 

Why should we send aid to 3rd world countries? For example, if I pay money to feed some starving kid in Africa, what is gained by this? A kid lives for a few more days? That's all good and well, but it does nothing to improve the condition of the region. He still won't contribute to the global society. In fact, it will let him live longer and possibly grow up and have his own children, who might end up in the same situation, thus perpetuating the problem. If we stopped aiding the starving people, they would die, and there would no longer be a starvation problem. This is how nature works. A pack of wolves who manages to kill 6 moose (and arbitrary number I picked at random), they aren't going to "donate" one to a wolf pack that only killed one. Survival of the fittest is the law of nature. Why don't we follow it?

Edited April 3, 2012 by Gordon Freeman

[Champion RD92 8,658]

Huh...that's an interesting dilemma...

 

Just letting all those people starve seems kind of messed up, honestly, but I get what you mean about the aid not really solving the problem.

[Starshine 16,333]

My opinion? Keep them starving.

 

1st of all, why did they suffer in the first place? The most obvious reason is because their government was too busy killing each other and their country was filled with druglords waging war at each other. But the true reason is because they are too lazy to do anything

 

Just take a quick look to our typical starving mother, "I can't do anything to support my family. My daughters are too young. My sons aren't strong enough to work. And I can't do anything because I'm pregnant."

 

They spent most of their time, holding hand up, hoping for 1st world countries for any charity. And with all those moneys all they ever did was reproducing more and more soon-to-be-starving mothers of their own generation

 

It's an unending cycle. We can't help it this way because no matter how rich the 1st world countries are, we couldn't alleviate their countries condition. All we can do is to give them enough charity to feed themselves, leaves little to no room to actually improve their condition

 

Solution? Keep them starving. And choose a select few from all those starving mothers and teach them and their many kids how to support themselves.

 

One thousands self-supporting families is much more better than one billion starving mothers

Edited April 3, 2012 by Shefira

[Swordfishtrombone 384]

Yeah, throwing money at it helps nothing, we can see that. For there to be living, there needs to be dying too. Not to mention who actually gets this money anyway...

[Rainbow_Crash 92]

its really quite simple for me, the choice will simply be made based on which "moral" or "belief" is bigger in them. Imagine those morals as circles(Compassion moral, logic moral, evil is good moral, i dont care moral, skroutz moral) inside a human, each human has many of those morals(morals includes beliefs, to thoughts about others like gamers=good or bad to this person=inferior)

 

The compassion moral would mean the person believes that is good to help others and feels good about himself when it satisfies that moral(this could also conflict with logic moral if it isnt too big, making a choice between logic and compassion)

Logic moral is the belief that the person is trying to be rational at all situations and think about the action and the result and try to avoid emotional influences

Evil is good moral is that some people came to the conclusion that its good to act in a certain bad(based on society) way, so they feel good when they do the right thing based on their beliefs

I dont care moral is the type of person who goes "I dont care about them and i wont pretend it do", try to stay real and not get affected by society's standards.

Skroutz moral is just people who want to save money and want to be rich, obviously if they want to do that they wont give any money an will feel great for not doing it

 

 

Now its more complex than that but its a good way to visualise things, all morals are there to just make us feel better when we do something

 

Now these are why someone does something and not why they started believing those. This is probably a very long conversation since there are many many possible reasons these morals could have been created, some of them could be

 

as a defense to an event(parents are bad, everything parents represents/are is bad or this says my good moral is wrong, he is dumb or evil or monster)

some others just to feel better/superior(basic need, considering all those excuses people find to be "better than others, from clothing to color of skin to laws)

some other are society pressure(Things like this is good or bad, if your bad ur bad u get punished, people dont understand why they do thing but still feel good about it because someone told them its "good")

So its generally based on the enviroment that person was born

 

So generally without seeing someone's specific enviroment its almost impossible to find out where did all those morals came from

 

/ponymode ON

PONIES!!

Edited April 3, 2012 by Rainbow_Crash

[Swordfishtrombone 384]

Remember that money used to help them how to wash their balls? No? Thats because it did absolutely NOTHING.

 

Plus its right you know, the only cure to starvation is to let them starve, or kill each other before they do. Sure it ain't exactly "nice" but thats how it goes in Africa.

[Crazy Misty 653]

Or here's a simple soloution, MAYBE THEY STOP HAVING KIDS AND THEN THEY CAN STOP COMPLAINING!

[biloh 33]

I believe people should not stop helping these people.

Human are selfish beings, but i believe that once they sympathize they can realize and start a change. We just hide from the truth and ignore the common good.

First of all I have been witness to many terrible things in my life concerning poverty and hunger and i promised myself i would always do something to try to help, and I'm not going to lie, I'm a slacker, since it is my nature, but i have always tried my best. (not good enough)

I do not live in a first world country where everything is nice and people who cant provide for themselves are looked after by the government. I live in a third world country where i have seen children beg for food everyday right after i open my garage door, or i have seen them search through my garbage for something to eat.

Well 'what's up' with these people, why aren't they looking for a job? These people have no tools to get education or even to get a job. The government does not care about them since they're too busy stealing peoples' taxes. Since these people are uneducated and have always lived like this, they don't know any better. I remember walking out of a restaurant with a box of leftovers when i was about 8 years old, and i was so full. That's when beggar child asked me if i would give him some of my leftovers, and i couldn't just give him my leftovers, i felt bad. I asked my dad why didn't he got a big steak like the one i just had eaten, he said that some us weren't lucky, "hmm lucky" funny word, my dad then took the child back to the restaurant and we made sure he got what he wanted from the menu.

Do you think that if that child had a choice he would be asking for money or at home studying? Do you think they would decide to choose that for themselves? No, they wouldnt, so why do they have to pay? They are victims of a system that only benefits some. If you are part of this forum you are a lucky person, whatever you say, its not going to change my mind that you're not. You have food, shelter and even a computer, that makes you really damn lucky. These people don't know if they're going to eat tomorrow.

We are born into a society that is not fair, but as long as i am alive, i cannot see this unfairness happen,or can you? There is nothing better to put yourself in these peoples' shoes.

 

Ask yourself, if your child came to you one night and he said i'm hungry, and you couldn't give him any food, how would YOU feel?

 

It's damn hard.

 

I've been part of sponsorship NGO's, and be sure that with the $30 you donate every month these children get necessary education, help, doctors, and even recreation. Education is power for these kids, they love school more than anything, but remember how much we hated it?

[Shankveld 4,949]

Don't hate, educate.

 

I feel like some people's opinions would be different if they were born in a third world country and grew-up with poverty.

 

"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not."

-Dr. Seuss

Edited April 3, 2012 by Shankveld

[Crazy Misty 653]

I think nobody should go through hunger but serious, you wonder why these countries are so poor? Maybe it's because they keep having children! Seriously they say "my daughter is starving" or "thousands of children needesly die everday" MAYBE THEY SHOULD GET THE MESSAGE AND STOP BREEDING GOD, I mean it's like buying a bunch of pets when you know you haven't got enough money to look after them

Edited April 3, 2012 by Stewie Griffin

[Starshine 16,333]

I grew up in a 3rd world country, and I know more than anyone else about how these starving mother tried to 'help' themselves

 

They will never do anything to support themselves as long as you keep giving them charity helps. They were just too 'mentally challenged' for that.

 

What good will it done if you keep giving them enough money for them to eat? Do you really trust them enough that they will soon be aware about their vicious cycle of starving generations?

 

All those money you've spent will do nothing but give them strength to beg for another day

All those charity will do nothing but to raise another generation of beggars

[Gizmo 206]

I've always been kind of on both sides on this subject. But it all depends on what the organization represents. For example, When the earthquake in Haiti happened a lot of people contributed to the aid and rescue, but really the only reason why that happened (IMO) was because so many celebrities came out and claimed they were dedicated to the cause, but where were they when that tsunami back in 2004 hit India? There was way less people willing to help them in comparison to Haiti. Japan I'm partial to because It's a beautiful country and it's culture as well so i wont discuss it because i'll end up being biased haha... But the point i'm trying to make is the only reason why people donate is so they can either use it as a tax write off or bragging rights, I'm not saying there aren't caring good nature people out there who naturally do it from the kindness of their hearts but it's still mainly companies and the wealthy trying to get a tax break. Now back to the subject at hand (Sorry for wandering off...lol) Children deserve the right to grow up, but just sending money over isn't going to change their lives. It's going to teach them to be dependent on daily meals from aid programs, they'll get lazy, and once the aid stops they'll revolt and bite the hand that feeds. What should really be happening is instead of just feeding them, how about teaching them to be self reliant, as one famous man once said "Give a man a fish feed him for the day, teach a man to fish feed him for his entire life". But even so I feel as though we aren't stable enough to even be aiding other countries, Look at our national debt and market, why not fix our economy, our homelessness problem, our civil problems first before we give hand outs to other countries first?

[Shankveld 4,949]

I grew up in a 3rd world country, and I know more than anyone else about how these starving mother tried to 'help' themselves

 

They will never do anything to support themselves as long as you keep giving them charity helps. They were just too 'mentally challenged' for that.

 

What good will it done if you keep giving them enough money for them to eat? Do you really trust them enough that they will soon be aware about their vicious cycle of starving generations?

 

All those money you've spent will do nothing but give them strength to beg for another day

All those charity will do nothing but to raise another generation of beggars

 

Education is motivation,

educate the children and they will want to work hard to move out of their social class.

 

The problem is the government too,

luxuries we have in Canada (and other firest world countires)

ie. madatory schools etc. are things that would servilely help the suffering countries

Edited April 3, 2012 by Shankveld

[Starshine 16,333]

"Give a man a fish feed him for the day, teach a man to fish feed him for his entire life"

 

This. Is the truth

[Shankveld 4,949]

I think nobody should go through hunger but serious, you wonder why these countries are so poor? Maybe it's because they keep having children! Seriously they say "my daughter is starving" or "thousands of children needesly die everday" MAYBE THEY SHOULD GET THE MESSAGE AND STOP BREEDING GOD, I mean it's like buying a bunch of pets when you know you haven't got enough money to look after them

 

Rape is a huge problem is third world countries, some women don't choose to become pregnant.

Others are too uneducated to understand what they are doing.

~

Maybe BC should be added to the water supply ;p

I do agree that having children though only worsens the problem.

[Gizmo 206]

Education is motivation,

educate the children and they will want to work hard to move out of their social class.

 

The problem is the government too,

luxuries we have in Canada (and other firest world countires)

ie. madatory schools etc. are things that would servilely help the suffering countries

 

Education isn't purely the answer though. It won't matter if they learn algebra or how to read at a high school level, it all depends on the background they come from. There has been hundreds of social experiments done on this subject, and not one student from a poorly supportive home was motivated to pass high school or go to college, sure they had the desire but they didn't have the ambition. But students from poor homes WITH supportive family and didn't have poor influences around the home did graduate, and did move on to a higher education. now with that in mind, think of the villages and the rebel militias around, That's not a positive influence. I'm not saying THEY ALL don't have ambition, but with the amount of bad influence there right now I don't think many really care to know the square root of 7921, they really just care that they're getting fed and they'll keep relying on all that aid.

[Shankveld 4,949]

Education isn't purely the answer though. It won't matter if they learn algebra or how to read at a high school level, it all depends on the background they come from. There has been hundreds of social experiments done on this subject, and not one student from a poorly supportive home was motivated to pass high school or go to college, sure they had the desire but they didn't have the ambition. But students from poor homes WITH supportive family and didn't have poor influences around the home did graduate, and did move on to a higher education. now with that in mind, think of the villages and the rebel militias around, That's not a positive influence. I'm not saying THEY ALL don't have ambition, but with the amount of bad influence there right now I don't think many really care to know the square root of 7921, they really just care that they're getting fed and they'll keep relying on all that aid.

 

Not one?

Both my sister and I are in/moving onto higher education and we come from the least supportive home I know.

I wouldn't under estimate the power of human spirit.

The sponsored children love going to school,

if you ask them (my fiancée did a lot with charity work and sponsorship) what their favourite thing is, they don't say "Playing my xbox", they say "going to school".

[The Awesome One 1,315]

Thankfully I'm not a poor 3rd world child I'm a upper middle class one.If you ask me don't give the ''poor'' people on tiny bit because trust me 60% of the world's needy people are actually very skilled con-artists.

[Champion RD92 8,658]

Education is motivation,

educate the children and they will want to work hard to move out of their social class.

 

The problem is the government too,

luxuries we have in Canada (and other firest world countires)

ie. madatory schools etc. are things that would servilely help the suffering countries

 

first*

countries*

mandatory*

severely*

 

Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but all those spelling mistakes were bugging me

 

I think nobody should go through hunger but serious, you wonder why these countries are so poor? Maybe it's because they keep having children! Seriously they say "my daughter is starving" or "thousands of children needesly die everday" MAYBE THEY SHOULD GET THE MESSAGE AND STOP BREEDING GOD, I mean it's like buying a bunch of pets when you know you haven't got enough money to look after them

 

Did you seriously compare starving children to pets? Dafuq?

 

Although I suppose having less children could at least help the problem a bit...less children means less children starving.

 

 

Rape is a huge problem is third world countries, some women don't choose to become pregnant.

Others are too uneducated to understand what they are doing.

 

This brings up a good point. There's no way that everyone could just stop breeding.

 

 

So, first controversial subject: aiding people in 3rd world countries

 

Question: Are there going to be more subjects that we will discuss? And when will we change subjects?

Edited April 3, 2012 by RainbowDash92

[RagingTwilight 101]

It's for this reason that I tend to only donate to organizations whose goal is not just to feed them, but to cloth, educate and help them find shelter, that is, help them improve their overall circumstances. Feeding starving children is of course a good thing, but your devil's advocate's position has some truth to it- given their circumstances, they very well may end up failing to prevent the root cause of the problem. What's worse is when all of our donated money only goes to those perpetuating the problem.

 

And as (kinda) stated in one of the posts above, motivating people to be educated (especially from the third world) is another matter entirely. A very complex problem, this is. I'd be stupid to say I could solve it. I can only do what I can to mitigate the situation as much as possible until better solutions are found.

[Crazy Misty 653]

 

Did you seriously compare starving children to pets? Dafuq?

 

Although I suppose having less children could at least help the problem a bit...less children means less children starving.

 

 

 

 

 

Surely starving pets and starving children can be compared?

 

If you bought a lot of pets and didn't have the money to take care of them they'd suffer too.

[Champion RD92 8,658]

Surely starving pets and starving children can be compared?

 

If you bought a lot of pets and didn't have the money to take care of them they'd suffer too.

 

Yeah i get what you mean

[Crispy 5,563]

My opinion? Keep them starving.

 

Why wait? Let's bomb everyone that isn't as well off as we are.

 

[Shankveld 4,949]

first*

countries*

mandatory*

severely*

 

Sorry to be a grammar nazi, but all those spelling mistakes were bugging me

 

I have dyslexia, and my computer spell check was clearly not working for whatever reason.

Writing this is like complaining about a blind person for not being able to see,

it just makes you look bad ~

[Champion RD92 8,658]

I have dyslexia, and my computer spell check was clearly not working for whatever reason.

Writing this is like complaining about a blind person for not being able to see,

it just makes you look bad ~

 

lol sorry

 

Well thanks for making me feel like an ass now ._.

Edited April 3, 2012 by RainbowDash92