The concept of reality and how we view it

[Discordian 6,015]

This topic is to debate the idea of reality.

 

Let me pose a few questions and see how people answer, remember there is no right or wrong answer in a philosophical discussion and no answer is as silly as it seems, unless you specifically mean it as a joke.

 

First of all: What do you think of the possibility that our dreams may be the true reality and what we view as reality is just the dream world? More often then not in dreams we seem to think it's reality until we wake up (except those few times you are lucid dreaming but this in itself does not necessarily disprove the notion)

 

What do you think of the theory that no two people view the same thing as another when looking at it? Like say...I could be looking at a tree and see a tree and be talking about a tree but in Zoop's version of reality he's playing a Football game? There's no possible way for humans to prove that two entities are seeing the same reality even when they are next to each other, a conundrum of the mind and soul.

 

What do you think of the possibility that existence may in fact be created and maintained by a higher being rather than just being pure coincidence? It's a heavy debate that all things that are right the world, all the things that are logical and make sense, can't possibly just be coincidence and that there must be someone behind all of that. Leave the fact that you are either religious or atheist or agnostic out of this part of the discussion, this is purely a philosophical thing (which last I checked wasn't outside the realm of any of the above factions) so try to discuss what other people believe as well as your own instead of just stating your own belief.

 

That's a good start, I should think.

[Evilshy 5,090]

The world was not a result of coincidence. Everything that happened to allow humans to exist happened in a sequence that allowed the next thin to happen. A bunch of rock and debris and stuff was orbiting the sun. Due to gravity, it came together and formed into a planet. Between it's own gravity and the heat of the sun, all, or at least most, excess gas and debris either became part of the earth and it's atmosphere or was burned away. A massive ton of stuff happened for a long time, and the earth was actually unable to support life for a long time. The surface was molten, the atmosphere was largely CO2, nothing could've lived there. Eventually, it cooled off, as planets do. Liquid water was able to exist now. Organic molecules began to form, and some were structured in a way that made them self replicating. Add a little energy, and a chemical reaction is set off, a possible explanation for the origin of the simplest life that can still be called life. It grew more complex. Shit happened. There were extinctions, growth blooms. For a long time, life was confined to the sea. Algae became prevalent, and drastically altered the atmosphere with all the extra oxygen, allowing life to exist above water. Primitive amphibians evolved. Evolution continued. Shit happened. Dinosaurs. More shit. Extinctions. An environmental roller coaster between ice ages and hot periods as the currents of the oceans and atmosphere changed. Mammals became dominant. Tons more stuff happened. That monolith thing from 2001 a Space Odyssey showed up. Primates became smarter as their brains had to grow to make up for their lack of other natural abilities. This trend continued until we had primitive humans. Humans evolved. We advanced. Shit happened. We're here now.

 

It's a logical progression. I don't see why people would think this is impossible for a chain of events to happen without divine intervention. Believe I had a thread about this very thing about a week ago.

 

 

 

Anyway, rant over. Personally, I don't believe that the dream world is the real one, for several reasons. First off, all my dreams are lucid in zone parts and not in others. I'll suddenly become lucid, only to have lucidity end a few minutes later (or what feels like a few minutes). Also, I'm not even in all of my dreams. They're not even all first person. I have third person dreams, and I have plenty that play out as if I'm watching a movie. I do have dreams that are first person, and those are generally more lucid than others, but they aren't even the majority of my dreams. Also, the sheer amount of weird, mindfucking stuff that happens in my dreams at times makes me think that it's a product if my strange mind and not the other way around.

This is all going off dreams that I remember, obviously. And really, how do we know, and how would it effect our lives, really?

 

On the subject of everybody seeing the universe differently... Yes? I thought that was common knowledge. And as much as I hate to say it, we simply can't know. As a scientist, it really grinds my gears to say so, but we can't run an experiment to test how somebody perceives the entire universe. We can get little snippets, tiny scraps of insight with things like colorblind and sound tests, but those are only for physical senses and are very biologically based. We can find, in a limited sense, how others perceive the world, but not how they interpret it or how they think about it.

[Discordian 6,015]

I see you take things purely by a logical point of view rather than the possibility of there being much you don't, or even can't know.

 

I prefer to keep things illogical since saying "It can only be this way because it's only logical" does not explain certain phenomena like how people perceive time differently, why the Earth spins in a specific direction and not the other, whether the soul truly exists or not or whether humans are just machinations built with certain functions so that we believe we are sentient but we truly aren't.

 

But as I said: There's no right or wrong answers since in the end no one can truly know, everyone just tries to find something they believes makes the most sense.

 

I know you're an atheist but, hypothetically speaking, let's say that even if everything seems to be done through a matter of progression maybe it was just so good at looking like progression because it was made by a higher being that knew what they were doing? Not necessarily speaking of any specific god of any kind, hell "higher being" itself does not necessarily denote the mention of a god at all.

 

Also, like I said about dreams, lucid dreams don't necessarily disprove the notion that the dream world is not in fact the true reality. Neither do dreams that you yourself aren't even in necessarily mean they aren't reality. If, for example, you had a dream about MLP and that dream, at the time of dreaming, felt like it was real and it was only when you wake up that you truly "realize" that it was just a dream. But what if that dream was the true reality and you wouldn't know what reality actually felt like and you merely think this is because you have a semblance of control over your own body and mind.

 

Consider this: Some say the best kind of control is the kind when those under your control do not realize that they are under control at all, they believe they are free to do what they wish but are not truly. So if you believe you are in control of your body in "reality" and not in control, most of the time, in your dreams, then it's very much possible dreams are the true reality where the truth is apparent and that you are not in control and you know it when you wake up even if you didn't realize it in your dream.

 

I've never been able to control my body and mind in my dreams except for the very few times I've ever lucid dreamt, it's as if my body and even my thoughts worked on their own. I've never personally had a dream that felt the same as "reality" after I wake up. All my dreams still feel like a dream even when I lucid dream.

 

Some of that was slightly redundant but know this: As a philosopher I will take into consideration all sides, no matter how illogical or controversial they may be. It is my duty as a philosopher to oppose everyone, even myself, when a point is brought up so don't take anything I say personally or as some kind of attack. It's merely the philosopher and debater in me.

[CapnKrunk 307]

reality hits you hard bro

[Eenohay 318]

There's no reality. You are all in my head.

 

 

Ok come on, are you really gonna make us think like children again? Even if I can't prove that you see the same as I do, or that you even think, I'll have to go through the rest of my life assuming so. I cant see the matrix.

[Evilshy 5,090]

There's no reality. You are all in my head.

 

I've long had the theory that everybody is my alt and I'm just talking with my own alternate personalities.

Ok not really, but it's still funny to pull it out in chat every now and then.

 

 

I see you take things purely by a logical point of view rather than the possibility of there being much you don't, or even can't know.

There is a lot of stuff we don't know. But you are right in that I believe there is very little that we can't know. Most is philosophical stuff. I believe that with enough research and experimentation, and the right advances in technology, all physical phenomena can be explained. Questions such as "is reality a dream and our dreams reality?"... Well, maybe they could be answered, maybe they couldn't. But knowing either way wouldn't really effect anything, would it?

 

 

I prefer to keep things illogical since saying "It can only be this way because it's only logical" does not explain certain phenomena like how people perceive time differently, why the Earth spins in a specific direction and not the other, whether the soul truly exists or not or whether humans are just machinations built with certain functions so that we believe we are sentient but we truly aren't.

I wasn't using that as proof of the non-existence of a Creator. I was using to refute the claim that because of all this stuff happened, there must be a creator. I don't know if there is a creator, but I don't see any evidence of one. I am a firm believer that what is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. 

 

It depends on what you mean by "how people perceive time differently."

The earth spins a certain way because the debris that coalesced to form it was orbiting in a certain direction. It was orbiting that direction because the sun was rotating in a certain direction. Now, why the sun was rotating in that direction, I don't know. But like other similar questions: does it matter?

 

What would your criteria be for the existence of the soul? Personally, I think that if we grew a human in a lab, from an embryo made completely from synthesized cells in an artificial womb. I don't mean artificial cells, but natural cells made of organic matter that was created in a lab, perhaps through molecular manipulation (manually moving around individual atoms to create molecules.) If this human was similar to other humans (with allowances for normal human conditions), then I think it would prove that either 1) there is no soul, or 2) that the soul is created through normal biological processes. The technology for this is beyond us right now, and I doubt society would condone such an experiment

 

The fact that we can think this way and debate this subject proves we are sentient. If we are programmed, then we are programmed to be sentient, or our programming has evolved past it's original parameters. Would knowing either way change anything?

 

But as I said: There's no right or wrong answers since in the end no one can truly know, everyone just tries to find something they believes makes the most sense.

It depends on the question. I believe that many questions do have right and wrong answers. A false statement doesn't become true just because people believe it is. Of course, I realize that some ideas appeal to some people more than others, and as long as they aren't dicks about it, I'm okay with that. I'm good friends with people all over the "belief spectrum", as one might call it.

 

I know you're an atheist but, hypothetically speaking, let's say that even if everything seems to be done through a matter of progression maybe it was just so good at looking like progression because it was made by a higher being that knew what they were doing? Not necessarily speaking of any specific god of any kind, hell "higher being" itself does not necessarily denote the mention of a god at all.

Yes, that is possible, but where's the evidence? I try not to make claims I can't back up, and I don't like it when other do. I realize that you aren't actually making this claim and that this is a hypothetical situation, I'm just responding to it as I would. 

 

Also, like I said about dreams, lucid dreams don't necessarily disprove the notion that the dream world is not in fact the true reality. Neither do dreams that you yourself aren't even in necessarily mean they aren't reality. If, for example, you had a dream about MLP and that dream, at the time of dreaming, felt like it was real and it was only when you wake up that you truly "realize" that it was just a dream. But what if that dream was the true reality and you wouldn't know what reality actually felt like and you merely think this is because you have a semblance of control over your own body and mind.

 

Well, the first thing I think of is the time problem. If some traumatic event happens in this life, you might have dreams about it later. But if this reality is a dream, then that means that you had a dream about something before it happened, which is impossible. Now, I know you might say that premonitions might be possible in the "real" world, but premonitions would technically violate causality and in my dreams at least, I can't remember any violation of physical laws. Yes, weird stuff has happened, but nothing that directly violates any physical laws, and plenty does happen that seems to follow the laws, so I would assume that this hypothetical world has the same physics. 

 

Consider this: Some say the best kind of control is the kind when those under your control do not realize that they are under control at all, they believe they are free to do what they wish but are not truly. So if you believe you are in control of your body in "reality" and not in control, most of the time, in your dreams, then it's very much possible dreams are the true reality where the truth is apparent and that you are not in control and you know it when you wake up even if you didn't realize it in your dream.

I hate to keep using this response (I really do, it makes me feel like I'm dodging your point ), but would it matter? If you feel in control and don't know you're not, then what's the difference? To use the Matrix example, nobody has a problem with being in the Matrix because they don't know they're in the Matrix. If I suddenly became aware that I was, it wouldn't really change much, would it? Sure, I could stop doing anything since it's all a simulation, but when I stopped going to work and school and stuff, my life would get worse. It wouldn't matter that it wasn't a real life, since I still feel it all, and it's the only life I have. As long as I am only aware of the Matrix, but unable to do anything about it, the fact that I know I'm in it is meaningless. 

 

I've never been able to control my body and mind in my dreams except for the very few times I've ever lucid dreamt, it's as if my body and even my thoughts worked on their own. I've never personally had a dream that felt the same as "reality" after I wake up. All my dreams still feel like a dream even when I lucid dream.

My dreams never feel real, because of the loss and gain of lucidity, the occasional third person views, and the ones where I'm not even in the dream. But in any case, would it matter which reality is real? Our lives are lived in this reality, regardless of if it's true or just a dream. Our livelihood as we know it depends on what we do in this one, our feelings are largely dependent on what happens in this reality. I don't know anyone whose dreams have a big effect on their decisions. 

 

Some of that was slightly redundant but know this: As a philosopher I will take into consideration all sides, no matter how illogical or controversial they may be. It is my duty as a philosopher to oppose everyone, even myself, when a point is brought up so don't take anything I say personally or as some kind of attack. It's merely the philosopher and debater in me.

 

And as is probably obvious, I am much more a scientist than a philosopher. I'll take into consideration anything as long as you can present evidence to back it up

 

Also, I don't take any offense. You're a great person to trade thoughts with, Raronoopa

[Stoner Spike 185]

If reality isn't real and our dreams are, I'm pretty sure someone would have realized that by now, don't you think? To be completely honest, I don't think that our dreams being reality is a possibility, because we would have come quite close to death many times, and very frequently at that. Saying dreams were reality would be saying things such as that teleportation is possible, that one can see things in a third-person view, that one can come into and out of existence at times, etc. If you think about it this way, it makes perfect nonsense.

 

Of course, I at times ponder this as well; but the truth is that everything has a place in space and time, and everyone can see the same forms, shapes, and objects, though not the same colors and quality that others see. The only reason things may appear of a different color or quality is due to traits such as colorblindness and nearsightedness. You know this is true, for if it were false, one would not be able to talk with others about [example] a movie that aired in a theater a few nights ago. I'm not quite sure how to put this into better words.

 

As for that last question...nobody can truly know. For all that we know, we're just being controlled by a higher entity and think that we're free of will, or we might actually be free, or somewhere in between. To be honest, you're still living life and enjoying it, so why care if you really were being controlled or anything such? Even if this were true, it wouldn't matter if you knew or not, because you'd still be in that entity's control.

 

Nobody can prove or disprove the inexplicable, one can only find a stance they like best and attempt to uphold that stance; so it's really pointless to debate whether the Big Bang or God really happened.

[Discordian 6,015]

See, that's the best thing about my philosophical views:

 

Because there's no evidence it leaves room for alteration at a whim, which in turn can create new theories of it's own.

 

On top of that, I have one thing to say to "What's it matter?"

 

....It doesn't. And that's the beauty of it. It has no real impact on life as it is and how I understand it and go through it and yet because it doesn't affect my life, positively or negatively, I can think about it freely. I have no need to prove to myself anything, nor disprove it. Thus my mind thinks of things that others normally don't.

 

And to me, nonsense is far more intriguing than established theory and facts.

 

Does it matter that we are in control of our own lives or not? No. But that doesn't mean pondering the possibility doesn't have it's own entertainment either. Looking directly at the Matrix, if we were actually in it as the movie suggested, they suggest possibilities that Neo never thought of before and he was a smart cookie beforehand!

 

Here is another possibility: Do you think that maybe the fact that you have to have proof or have to make sense of something maybe is proof enough of someone controlling us somehow into thinking that things are only just so?

 

What if human nature was truly madness and nonsensical thought but we have been conditioned to believe that something has to make sense to be true. Why does something make sense in the first place? Because our minds take it to be so or because we are taught that way?

 

I know you like your proof and all but unlike scientific experimentation, philosophy isn't about the result or the answers but the journey to the answer itself. The path you took, how many times can you alter your course, how many new possibilities you can come up with, how many doors you can open within your own mind, how unbiased you can become to consider both your side and the opposing side...

 

I can come up with any number of theories and they can be as nonsensical as yellow bricks floating in the sky but the fun part isn't the answers that may or may not exist, that may or may not be true, but the way of finding the answer.

 

As an old wise man said: The journey is more important than the destination.

 

Which is why I always consider the possibility that dreams are the true reality. We view this as our reality because it is the most mentally securing and "feels" like reality to us. But can you truly explain to me what reality feels like even if we both are experiencing it at the same time?

 

It's true that humans can come up with an answer given the right information but there are some things out there I don't believe the human mind has the capability of grasping no matter how much information they have of it.

 

Oh and as for the question of why the Earth spins one way and not the other it wasn't so much a question of why or how it spins in the first place but merely the simplest of questions: Why didn't it spin the other way?

 

Once again: It doesn't particularly matter but neither does it have to matter to be relevant or entertaining. It just depends on how you view it and whether you want to ponder it.

 

Yes, you could say I'm a little...off.

[Evilshy 5,090]

See, that's the best thing about my philosophical views:

 

Because there's no evidence it leaves room for alteration at a whim, which in turn can create new theories of it's own.

Does that not defeat the purpose of a theory? Theories are ideas of how something works, put forth to be tested, debated, and, ideally, proven or disprove. A theory that, by it's nature, can't be tested, proven, or disproven isn't much of a theory. 

 

On top of that, I have one thing to say to "What's it matter?"

 

....It doesn't. And that's the beauty of it. It has no real impact on life as it is and how I understand it and go through it and yet because it doesn't affect my life, positively or negatively, I can think about it freely. I have no need to prove to myself anything, nor disprove it. Thus my mind thinks of things that others normally don't.

I can understand the appeal of thinking freely about things that don't impact you, I just don't feel that appeal. Or at least, I don't feel it very strongly or all that often. I used to like philosophizing more than I do now, but now that I found out how awesome I feel when I actually figure things out and learn new stuff and things like that, I don't like to put a lot of thought into questions and problems that can't be answered or solved. 

 

And to me, nonsense is far more intriguing than established theory and facts.

Eh, it's entertaining at times, but as you say later on in this post, I like my science

 

Does it matter that we are in control of our own lives or not? No. But that doesn't mean pondering the possibility doesn't have it's own entertainment either. Looking directly at the Matrix, if we were actually in it as the movie suggested, they suggest possibilities that Neo never thought of before and he was a smart cookie beforehand!

I'm not sure I follow you on this one. What possibilities do you mean?

 

Here is another possibility: Do you think that maybe the fact that you have to have proof or have to make sense of something maybe is proof enough of someone controlling us somehow into thinking that things are only just so?

I don't know. If I was in control of a universe and didn't want the intelligent beings living in it to know about me, I'd want them to think as you do; speculating about my existence, but also that they can't really know. It prevents then from actually trying to find the truth. I'd be wary of highly intelligent and motivated scientists, because maybe they'd be able to find something that led to me. 

Of course, maybe the higher being just wants me to think like this so I convince myself that it doesn't exist because if it did, it would be smarter. Or maybe it just doesn't give a shit about if we find it or something. 

See, I can think a bit like you

It just doesn't really get me anywhere, and I prefer to get somewhere.

 

What if human nature was truly madness and nonsensical thought but we have been conditioned to believe that something has to make sense to be true. Why does something make sense in the first place? Because our minds take it to be so or because we are taught that way?

Truth, by it's very nature, makes sense. If it doesn't, it's because you lack information, or are viewing it in the wrong context. 

For example, the solar system. In ancient times, it was thought that the sun and planets went around the earth. It made sense to them, but it still wasn't true.

 

I know you like your proof and all but unlike scientific experimentation, philosophy isn't about the result or the answers but the journey to the answer itself. The path you took, how many times can you alter your course, how many new possibilities you can come up with, how many doors you can open within your own mind, how unbiased you can become to consider both your side and the opposing side...

Well, not so much proof as evidence, but yes, I do

And I know what philosophy is about. That's the problem I have with it; it's so much about the journey, you often don't even reach the destination. Sometimes, the destination isn't even reachable. Even if you disagree, surely you can understand why I don't see much point in a journey to an unreachable destination. Detours are all good and well, and I do take many of them, but I still would like to reach my destination in a reasonable amount of time. 

 

I can come up with any number of theories and they can be as nonsensical as yellow bricks floating in the sky but the fun part isn't the answers that may or may not exist, that may or may  not be true, but the way of finding the answer.

Eh, I just don't find it fun to look for different answers for a question that has no answer. 

 

As an old wise man said: The journey is more important than the destination.

That may be so, but one shouldn't forget that the main purpose of a journey is to reach a destination. 

 

Which is why I always consider the possibility that dreams are the true reality. We view this as our reality because it is the most mentally securing and "feels" like reality to us. But can you truly explain to me what reality feels like even if we both are experiencing it at the same time?

Earlier, I think I explained how I believe that some things can't be explained. 

 

It's true that humans can come up with an answer given the right information but there are some things out there I don't believe the human mind has the capability of grasping no matter how much information they have of it.

I disagree. I think that all physical phenomena, as in, all things that exist in our universe, can be explained, given enough information. 

 

Oh and as for the question of why the Earth spins one way and not the other it wasn't so much a question of why or how it spins in the first place but merely the simplest of questions: Why didn't it spin the other way?

It doesn't spin the other way because conditions were such that it spins this way. 

But yes, I do see your point. I am deliberately missing it

 

Once again: It doesn't particularly matter but neither does it have to matter to be relevant or entertaining. It just depends on how you view it and whether you want to ponder it.

I see where you're coming from, I just prefer to ponder things that do matter, as you say. 

 

Yes, you could say I'm a little...off.

 

I'm not saying that. We just see things differently

[Discordian 6,015]

Oh no, it's perfectly fine to say I'm off. I know it and I'm proud of it.

 

I definitely understand your point of view though, it's not like I don't sometimes wanna know the answers of questions I pose myself, no matter how impossible, but in the end I've reconciled myself with the fact that some destinations don't need to be reached.

 

If you were to plan to get married with a girl ten years from this point, and you took the journey to woo her, get engaged to her, even plan the wedding, but she left you before the wedding itself, would you could that a failure or just an experience? Which is more important? The destination (marriage) or the journey (Having loved this girl for ten years)?

 

Just as an example. In the end we both are in the same field of thought, we just fall on two sides of the same line.

 

Oh and as for possibilities for Neo, I doubt he thought it possible for humans to be plugged into an electronic device just so he can learn to learn Jujitsu.

[Lady Rarity Pony 4,892]

I believe reality contains two major aspects, what can be seen and what cannot.

 

I believe both aspects work simultaneously, and together, and quite possibly, that the unseen takes charge of what can be seen.

 

Despite them working together. I believe that the unseen can be discredited and pushed aside, and without that aspect reality would still appear to make sense. I believe whether discredited or not, that both aspects will continue to exist.

[Discordian 6,015]

Noumenon and Phenomenon in a nutshell, LRP.

 

Also, just a totally random thought: What do you think of the possibility of a color outside of the color spectrum we know?

[Jadefire 2,797]

Is this the real life?

 

Is this just just fantasy?

 

Also, just a totally random thought: What do you think of the possibility of a color outside of the color spectrum we know?

 

There are plenty of electromagnetic waves outside of the visible light spectrum. Makes me wonder what ultraviolet or infrared would look like if humans, through genetic engineering or something, became able to see them.

[Evilshy 5,090]

There are plenty of electromagnetic waves outside of the visible light spectrum. Makes me wonder what ultraviolet or infrared would look like if humans, through genetic engineering or something, became able to see them.

 

The visible spectrum is tiny. Really tiny. I don't remember exactly, but I think it was; if you took a reel of projector tape that stretched from LA to Seattle, the visible spectrum would be about the length of a single frame.

 

 

Anyway, light doesn't have any inherent colors. We see colors because the rods and whatnot in out eyes absorb light and react to different wavelengths/frequency/etc. which is how we see different colors, brightness, etc.

Although, to most humans, light of a lower wavelength looks red, with higher ones look blue or purple. Infrared is just below the visible spectrum, and ultraviolet is just above it, so they might look... redder and purpler? I don't know, since we can only see the visible spectrum, and that's ALL we can see and have ever seen, we can't really comprehend any colors outside it. Even infrared and ultraviolet cameras have to translate them into visible colors.

 

 

And don't worry, Raronoopa, I'm still going to post a nice, long response to your nice, long post. I'm just a bit busy at the moment.

[Discordian 6,015]

Oh good, I thought you were gonna totally forget I existed, leave me in the dust so I go drink myself to sleep at a bar and wake up at 8AM wondering "Why didn't Evilshy reply? :( :( "

 

..........jk. xD

[Iris Melody 90]

Oh good, I thought you were gonna totally forget I existed, leave me in the dust so I go drink myself to sleep at a bar and wake up at 8AM wondering "Why didn't Evilshy reply? :( :( "

 

..........jk. xD

 

You entertain me XD Also, I like how you think. I'm still pondering decent, worthwhile responses.

[Evilshy 5,090]

Oh good, I thought you were gonna totally forget I existed, leave me in the dust so I go drink myself to sleep at a bar and wake up at 8AM wondering "Why didn't Evilshy reply? :( :( "

 

..........jk. xD

 

 

How can you joke like that? That hurts, noop. That hurts a lot. Here I thought we were friends, I thought we had a connection. But no, I make q small comment, acknowledging our friendship, and you reply with a snide remark, completely destroying our relationship.

 

I have nothing more to say to you.

 

 

 

Ahem. I mean, lol

[chef sanders 101]

The basic point of mankind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfttQuWY13k