MLP:FiM not ideal regarding its target audiences?

[Guest]

Hi. I've watched one episode of MLP:FiM - namely, "Bats!". May I share my thoughts about it?

 

I think the younger the audience is, the greater the responsibility of the show is. And this show is targeted to girls who are only a few years old. So, the educational responsibility is rather large.

 

I get - and appreciate - the message: avoid violence whenever possible, don't succumb to your peers' pressure if they're trying to make you do something you think is wrong. But! In this particular case this message is largely utopian and naive. I'd like to see a daughter of a real farmer lecturing her father about his pest-fighting after watching this episode! Also the fact that some action misfired and had unexpected consequences is not yet a proof that the whole idea had been immoral.

 

I understand that cartoons are naive and, out of necessity, do simplify the reality. But I find spoon-feeding false morals unacceptable. And the show condemns as immoral an action (fighting off the crop-destroing vermin) that is not immoral and leans towards suggesting that kindness is the ultimate solution to all evil, which is false again. And a very young girl might not be able to judge well if what is said to her is right or not.

 

And the second problem. Cider? Applejack? Really? I thought this kind of stuff was forbidden to children of that age. And if so, why mention it in this manner? Sure, trying to make kids not to know what alcohol is seems absurd, but... This what we see here is presenting alcohol in an almost endorsing way. And that's while Rainbow Dash seems to be nearing at best the line of harmful drinking! We sure have too big problems with underage drinking to be able to afford something like this.

 

Now I'm not trying to condemn this show and ask kids to be kept out of it. The opposite: the show seems to be one of the worthier ones of its kind. But it has faults, faults that wouldn't be nearly as severe if the show was targeted to more mature audiences. But what's ideal?

[AlbaTross 1,586]

Well, first of all in Canada we have a drink in the winter time called apple cider that is non-alcoholic and often served warm, so I think that is the drink Applejack's farm produces. If you ever end up in our neck of the woods during the holiday season, you should give it a try. It's often served alongside hot chocolate as an apple flavoured alternative. You may have a point about this episode's moral regarding pest fighting, but in this case Fluttershy proposed a solution that is ideal for both parties, and I think that's the message it was trying to get across in addition to not giving into peer pressure when you disagree on an issue. Applejack as a farmer and Fluttershy as an animal expert are both experts in this case IMHO.

 

All things considered though, Bats is not the episode I would recommend as an introduction to the series. I think if you're curious you may want to try watching the show from the beginning, but there are other episodes that fans typically recommend starting with; Bats is not one of them.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

The show has certainly gotten stupider as it's gone on. It used to be about delivering quality messages for daily interaction, such that a relatively tame but unusually off-base moral like in Feeling Pinkie Keen got lambasted for its poor delivery. Now we get episodes like Bats!, where the moral, conflict, and character relations are written by five year olds.

 

Also compare the character conflict with Season 1's Over A Barrel. Applejack was with the settlers, who needed their new land to survive, and Rainbow was with the Buffalo, who had been using that land for thousands of years. The other ponies were on the sidelines, trying simply to get the two sides to get along. But neither side was able and willing to talk to the other, and when they did they couldn't reach a compromise. I'll admit the conclusion with the pies was pretty stupid, but the messages about communication, compromise, and understanding ring true regardless.

 

But in Bats!, we're presented with a similar moral dilemma... only for the writers to show they really just don't care. Dash and Rarity understandably join AJ's side, so naturally the cool-headed Twilight and the cooperative Pinkie would be on Fluttershy's side, and we'd have a real two-sided dilemma, right? Nope, Princess Twilight and Pinkie join AJ's side for absolutely no stated reason so that Fluttershy can be "the righteous one" and the others can be portrayed as the antagonists, which is ironic because her own points were made up and illogical, she had no actual reasoning to back up her position, and unsurprisingly she was flat out wrong. In the end, everyone comes to agree with her for no reason once they solve her possession problem. In the end, all the lessons of the episode, even the right ones, fall totally flat because of the poor execution.

 

In short:

 

 

Oh but um, I dunno where you're from, but in many places "cider" is used to refer to the non-alcoholic stuff.

[Shanks 10,817]

Not all apple cider is alcoholic as a matter of fact in some countries like the US and Canada non alcoholic cider is just called "apple cider" while alcoholic cider is called "hard cider". And what you said about pest fighting is the most likely reason Applejack acted the way she did, there very well could have been a time where Applejack was just a young filly and the farm may have had an infestation and he had to talk to her about getting rid of pests as farmers must often do. Of course the problem with presenting that is that Hasbro dosen't want to imply that Applejack's parents are dead except for something subtle like the shooting stars in the episode Apple Family Reunion and such a thing would bring up the question of "where are Applejack's parents?" 

 

I don't think the intent of the episode was to demonize Applejack or her concerns but to merely suggest that in this situation there might have been a non violent solution that getting rid of the bats might have unintended consequences, there might be a non violent solution and that keeping the bats could have actual benefits like increased crop yield due to them spreading the seeds and the unstated reason of bat guano being a highly potent fertilizer which I actually explore in this fanfic I am writing called Sweet Guano Acres which you can give a read on fimfiction if you don't mind profanity and toilet humor. Fluttershy made a thoughtful and strong case for a humane solution while still listening to and understanding Applejack's concerns.

 

What I like about the episode Bat's is that it says that not every moral problem has a clear cut and dry solution to it that sometimes someone can mean well and do what think might be best but there might be a different and better solution to said problem. I would say that is a very valuable lesson for kids and adults.

[Cloud Strife 928]

The show has certainly gotten stupider as it's gone on. It used to be about delivering quality messages for daily interaction, such that a relatively tame but unusually off-base moral like in Feeling Pinkie Keen got lambasted for its poor delivery. Now we get episodes like Bats!, where the moral, conflict, and character relations are written by five year olds.

 

Whoa, slow down there, tiger. Just because an episode doesn't ring true to you doesn't mean it's 'written by five year olds'. These are still professional writers, even if their writing falls flat sometimes. The problem is that they're experimenting a lot more with Season 4 than they did with the other seasons (and why shouldn't they? If they write the same thing over and over again it's bound to get boring!) and when you experiment and step outside of the show's comfort zone with more far-reaching ideas, it will end up with more duds more often than staying tucked within the same formula all the time.

 

Here's the thing: when we have a discussion about what the target audience is going to get out of the show, we need to think like the target audience and not like ourselves. Yes, the message may seem convoluted to us - but to a five year old girl, is she even going to be paying much attention to the moral at the end? Little girls are going to be into the show because it captivates them, not for analyses or character dissections like we are. That doesn't mean our interest in the show is a bad thing, but the thought process behind the target audience is going to be radically different from ours. They might not even digest the conflict fully at all. That doesn't mean that I excuse weak writing but rather that we need to approach this from a different perspective instead of within our little boxes.

 

I, personally, believe that there were a lot of weak moments in early show, not just the later episodes as some others claim. In fact, among the weakest episodes that plays it safe the most is the first two-parter in my opinion. There are many logical fallacies and perceived pettiness in earlier episodes, too ("The Ticket Master", for example, has Applejack's needing to repair the barn to survive vs. Rainbow Dash's desire to meet the Wonderbolts only once when she can meet them on several other occasions, and has, at that. There's no contest here on who on this conflict is more morally in the right). This is because the show tries new things very often, and sometimes writers take on plots that aren't their strong suit, which results in subpar writing. Note that I said subpar. To be frank, My Little Pony has among the best writing of shows that are airing right now, to the point that even their dud episodes are far, far better than dud episodes of their competing cartoons. Even with all the interpretation for error that people have been making with "Bats!", the conflict is still stronger and the message rings truer than other cartoons that would try to tackle the same plot. That's quite a feat.

 

To me, "Bats!" in general was a rather bizarre episode, but I'm okay with that. I don't think that it was supposed to be some grandiose slice of life sort of episode, considering what happened to Fluttershy midway through it. They were playing around and I like that. I would rather they do that than regurgitate the same thing over and over again to appeal to fans who believe that Season 1 is the best season.

[VitalSpark 1,830]

 

 

I get - and appreciate - the message: avoid violence whenever possible, don't succumb to your peers' pressure if they're trying to make you do something you think is wrong. But! In this particular case this message is largely utopian and naive. I'd like to see a daughter of a real farmer lecturing her father about his pest-fighting after watching this episode!

 

Except that Fluttershy was right, and the bats were not pests.

 

Have you heard the story about Chairman Mao and the sparrows? In 1958, as part of China's Great Leap Forward, the government ran something called the Four Pests Campaign. The campaign was to rid China of four pests - rats, flies, mosquitoes and sparrows. With rats, flies, and mosquitoes, it's fairly obvious why they were targeted, but why sparrows? Well, they ate a lot of China's grain, including rice.

 

Anyway, the campaign was a big success. Within a couple of years, sparrows were virtually extinct in China. The only problem was that sparrows, as well as eating grain, ate a lot of insects. The locust population ballooned, rice yields suffered, and 20 million people died of starvation. (There were several causes of the famine, it wasn't just the lack of sparrows.)

 

If a farmer's daughter were to lecture her father about his pest control methods, perhaps he would be right to ignore her. But if the town's resident expert on animals were to offer some advice, it might make sense to listen to them.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Except that Fluttershy was right, and the bats were not pests.

Back up this statement please.

[EpitomeOfTruth 243]

Kindness isn't the solution to all evil? Of course it is.

 

Also, I dont understand the problems that people have with Fluttershy's choice. Are they just supposed to run a bunch of animals out of their natural habitat?

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Kindness isn't the solution to all evil? Of course it is.

 

Also, I dont understand the problems that people have with Fluttershy's choice. Are they just supposed to run a bunch of animals out of their natural habitat?

Ignoring the several things wrong with that statement, you are aware that Fluttershy's solution was to give the creatures that are decimating AJ's farm all the apples they want for nothing in return, right?

[Cloud Strife 928]

Back up this statement please.

 

Fluttershy's argument is that while the bats may have a short-term effect of eating the apples, their long-term effect will keep the apple trees going and sustain the farm better than if they were just to get rid of the bats completely.

 

Considering the apple farms are still going to this day in the MLP episodes and it has not been brought up since they came up with that compromise to keep the bats around, I'd say that yes, Fluttershy was right and that's all the proof you need.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Fluttershy's argument is that while the bats may have a short-term effect of eating the apples, their long-term effect will keep the apple trees going and sustain the farm better than if they were just to get rid of the bats completely.

That's not exactly what she said, you're embellishing quite a bit. Regardless, her claim was based on nothing, she made it up.

[Passion 3,489]

Isn't it a bit radical to create a thread about entirety of MLP: FiM episodes and then proceeding with choosing one, which is weaker in writing than the others, in order to form an opinion on the entire series?

That's one, misleading thread title you've got there. Currently what I see is that "Bats!" might be not ideal regarding its target audiences, not MLP: FiM.

 

Right, the target audience. That's also something worth mentioning. It is probably most correct to state that the show was originally intended to target little children, however that doesn't mean everything remained this way. Of course, I wouldn't believe the creators when, in response to questions about the brony phenomenon, they said that the show was originally created to target families rather than kids. However, given enough time, the audience really changed with new seasons and episodes. Right now there are subtle jokes implemented in the show that only more mature audiences will manage to fish out, while children will not even notice them. That leads me to believe that the target audience might indeed have shifted to be a family show rather than kids' show.

 

About cider:

 

Oxford dictionary:

 

cider

Also found in: Acronyms, Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.

ci·der

 (sī′dər)

n.

1. Unfermented juice pressed from fruit, especially apples, used as a beverage or to make other products, such as vinegar.

2. An alcoholic beverage made by fermenting juice pressed from fruit, especially apples. Also called hard cider.

 

The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 episode was basically MADE to support this thesis. We can basically see how the cider is being made: It's squeezed from fresh apples and instantly handed out to be drank. Where's the time for it to ferment? Rainbow Dash expresses her concern that she won't be able to get any cider because it'll be long gone before she gets it, what only means that they drink everything in a short period of time. It's seasonal.

I do know that the confusion is created by the fact that the word "cider" has two different meanings in certain parts of the world, and it refers only to alcoholic drink in others. However, with SSCS6000 I am led to believe that this shouldn't be much of an issue anymore.

 

 

As for the first concern, I feel that others have pointed out something important. Fluttershy IS the one experienced with animal care and handling. And even though bats might be seen as pests in AJ's eyes, it's still Flutters that has the knowledge and is much more versed in handling such situations than the others. What's wrong in questioning your own beliefs and listening to an expert?

It's true that the rest of the mane 6 is used as pointless tools, turned into antagonists. I'm quite certain there was a way to handle this episode without having all of the mane 6 in it. But again, it's just one, weaker episode out of many great ones, therefore the series shouldn't be judged solely on it.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Isn't it a bit radical to create a thread about entirety of MLP: FiM episodes and then proceeding with choosing one, which is weaker in writing than the others, in order to form an opinion on the entire series?

That's one, misleading thread title you've got there. Currently what I see is that "Bats!" might be not ideal regarding its target audiences, not MLP: FiM.

I'd say at least half of Season 4 has the same false, hackneyed morals and five-year-old's writing as Bats does.

 

 

As for the first concern, I feel that others have pointed out something important. Fluttershy IS the one experienced with animal care and handling. And even though bats might be seen as pests in AJ's eyes, it's still Flutters that has the knowledge and is much more versed in handling such situations than the others. What's wrong in questioning your own beliefs and listening to an expert?

Incorrect. It's both stated and shown that Fluttershy does not know a thing about vampire fruit bats, which is why we know her claims about them in the song are total BS.

[gamecubeguy214 2,514]

Well first, let's bring the process of making the cider. They grow the apple trees, the apples being raw and untouched. They then blend the apples into a liquid and put them into barrels, ready to be served. Where in there do you see alcohol installation?

[Cloud Strife 928]

As for the first concern, I feel that others have pointed out something important. Fluttershy IS the one experienced with animal care and handling. And even though bats might be seen as pests in AJ's eyes, it's still Flutters that has the knowledge and is much more versed in handling such situations than the others. What's wrong in questioning your own beliefs and listening to an expert?

 

Exactly, and here's the thing - people have stated here that AJ was completely demonized, which I don't believe to be the case. Maybe you think that because Fluttershy's solution was ultimately the one they went with, but AJ's problem had actual, visible evidence built up for it throughout the episode. She said they were pests, and by first appearances they actually were which made her point of view have a semblance of sense. Not to mention that while I did make a post saying that Fluttershy was right in that they were not pests, the way they chose to handle the bats was indeed a mixture of both her and AJ's suggestions (if I remember the episode correctly, they have a section of the farm specifically dedicated to the bats).

 

It's true enough a criticism, though, that it was unrealistic for all of the rest of the Mane Six to side with AJ. Perhaps ideally either the rest of the Mane Six (except perhaps for Twilight since she was needed for Flutterbat) was left out of the plot, or ponies siding with other ponies was more divisive. A better way it could have been done while keeping all of the ponies was having Pinkie Pie or Rarity side with Fluttershy, while Twilight doesn't join their mobbing song at all and stays in the background looking uncertain about the whole thing.

[EpitomeOfTruth 243]

To all of those mentioning that there is an un - alcoholic version of cider, keep in mind that it only foams at the top (The way it does in MLP) when it is alcoholic. So, he kinda has us there.

That's not exactly what she said, you're embellishing quite a bit. Regardless, her claim was based on nothing, she made it up.

I'm pretty sure the animal expert knew what she was talking about. Seriously...what makes you think that she made that up?

[Passion 3,489]

To all of those mentioning that there is an un - alcoholic version of cider, keep in mind that it only foams at the top (The way it does in MLP) when it is alcoholic. So, he kinda has us there.

 

I did not know that, interesting.

Even though SSCS6K production process still goes against this version.

 

But well, if even I did not know that, how would children know? I'm trying to reach a different conclusion from my own standpoint, but it seems to me that each one of us will see what they want to see in it.

All I know is that if I had children, I'd explain them that it's just an apple juice. Others may do as they please.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I'm pretty sure the animal expert knew what she was talking about. Seriously...what makes you think that she made that up?

Simple. Because she had just finished explaining that she doesn't know anything about vampire fruit bats.

[EpitomeOfTruth 243]

Ignoring the several things wrong with that statement, you are aware that Fluttershy's solution was to give the creatures that are decimating AJ's farm all the apples they want for nothing in return, right?

You are aware that the bats are just animals, right? They were just doing what nature intended. Why would they have to pay her back? Futhermore, you say that due to Fluttershy's lack of knowledge about the creatures, her claims are BS. Also not true, as the bats spit the seeds into the soil, helping the farm in the long run. Thats just common sense.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

You are aware that the bats are just animals, right? They were just doing what nature intended. Why would they have to pay her back? Futhermore, you say that due to Fluttershy's lack of knowledge about the creatures, her claims are BS. Also not true, as the bats spit the seeds into the soil, helping the farm in the long run. Thats just common sense.

Appeal to nature fallacy. Also can you back any of that last part up? Sounds totally made up to me.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Dulset Tarn

[Cloud Strife 928]

Simple. Because she had just finished explaining that she doesn't know anything about vampire fruit bats.

 

I am currently watching the episode as I type this. As far as I've gone, she has not once said that. She said that it's "the first vampire fruit bat she ever met", word for word. This does not mean she doesn't know anything, it means she has never personally worked with them. You can still know everything about an animal and have never even touched it in your entire life.

 

I don't own a snake, but I do know that you're supposed to feed them microwaved mice, that they're reptiles and generally don't move too much and like to stay in the sun, and certain snakes are more venomous than others.

 

You can't say that she doesn't know anything about vampire fruit bats just because she has never spoken in person to them before.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I am currently watching the episode as I type this. As far as I've gone, she has not once said that. She said that it's "the first vampire fruit bat she ever met", word for word. This does not mean she doesn't know anything, it means she has never personally worked with them. You can still know everything about an animal and have never even touched it in your entire life.

 

I don't own a snake, but I do know that you're supposed to feed them microwaved mice, that they're reptiles and generally don't move too much and like to stay in the sun, and certain snakes are more venomous than others.

 

You can't say that she doesn't know anything about vampire fruit bats just because she has never spoken in person to them before.

Do you have any evidence that she started off knowing a thing or two about them? Because the entire episode suggests otherwise.

[Cloud Strife 928]

Do you have any evidence that she started off knowing a thing or two about them? Because the entire episode suggests otherwise.

 

I already provided it earlier in the thread of the fact that the bats have not been brought up again as pests past this episode, and there have been plenty of episodes to do so, but if you want further proof, if anything, your claim that "the entire episode suggests otherwise" doesn't seem to hold water when Fluttershy speaks confidently about them during the song within the episode. If anything, she sounds like she knows what she's talking about.

 

The only thing that Fluttershy did not know in the episode, spelled out clearly, was how to talk with them and that was just because she'd never met one before. The facts that she knows about them, such as being loyal to their families, spitting seeds, etc., are facts that she doesn't need to have spoken to them to know.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I already provided it earlier in the thread of the fact that the bats have not been brought up again as pests past this episode, and there have been plenty of episodes to do so, but if you want further proof, if anything, your claim that "the entire episode suggests otherwise" doesn't seem to hold water when Fluttershy speaks confidently about them during the song within the episode. If anything, she sounds like she knows what she's talking about.

 

The only thing that Fluttershy did not know in the episode, spelled out clearly, was how to talk with them and that was just because she'd never met one before. The facts that she knows about them, such as being loyal to their families, spitting seeds, etc., are facts that she doesn't need to have spoken to them to know.

But again, we don't know those are true. And given what the episode shows, they're not true. So we have evidence that she's speaking out her flank.

[EpitomeOfTruth 243]

But again, we don't know those are true. And given what the episode shows, they're not true. So we have evidence that she's speaking out her flank.

Where's the evidence that it's not true?