The Banned Game

[CypherHoof 26,482]

13 minutes ago, Clod said:

Beaned for expecting me to see everything.

Baned for not paying attention. Fizzlepop berrytwist says you must open up your eyes

[Clod 8,294]

13 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Baned for not paying attention. Fizzlepop berrytwist says you must open up your eyes

Beaned because Luna says I must close my eyes and go to sleep

Sadly I can't rn

[CypherHoof 26,482]

Just now, Clod said:

Beaned because Luna says I must close my eyes and go to sleep

Sadly I can't rn

Barned because Luna once wished that more ponies would remain in the waking world - although she can reach them in their dreams more easily than she can when they walk in moonlight.

[Nsxile 26,816]

Unbanned because I can't really argue with that 

[Luigi 7,869]

Banned because

 

[Clod 8,294]

Beaned for Boston

[Nsxile 26,816]

Unbanned because true... But semi-banned because 

[CypherHoof 26,482]

5 hours ago, Nsxile said:

Unbanned because true... But semi-banned because 

Banned for knife culture....

[Nsxile 26,816]

6 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Banned for knife culture....

Banned because knives are only used in a fun way that causes (somewhat) minimal injury in NITW... Not the kind you're thinking of 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Nsxile

[CypherHoof 26,482]

1 hour ago, Nsxile said:

Banned because knives are only used in a fun way that causes (somewhat) minimal injury in NITW... Not the kind you're thinking of 

Banned for believing you know what I am thinking.

[Clod 8,294]

Beaned because gregg rulz ok

[Nsxile 26,816]

Unbanned because true 

[CypherHoof 26,482]

2 hours ago, Nsxile said:

Unbanned because true 

Not banned, but sad because what happened with NITW reminded me of Tooncritic....

[Nsxile 26,816]

5 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Not banned, but sad because what happened with NITW reminded me of Tooncritic....

Unbanned because true (although I find it more angering... Considering Alec was suffering with mental health issues, had posted about a conspiracy to destroy him as far back as 2016 and the that the accuser knew this and still posted allegations on twitter that were likely false (considering she never went to the police about it... Like someone would if they were serious about it)) and RIP Alec Holowka (who composed the soundtrack and worked on the coding of the game):

 

[CypherHoof 26,482]

4 hours ago, Nsxile said:

Unbanned because true (although I find it more angering... Considering Alec was suffering with mental health issues, had posted about a conspiracy to destroy him as far back as 2016 and the that the accuser knew this and still posted allegations on twitter that were likely false (considering she never went to the police about it... Like someone would if they were serious about it)) and RIP Alec Holowka (who composed the soundtrack and worked on the coding of the game)

Banned because "well, they didn't go to the police about it" isn't much of a criteria; most people in abusive relationships (male or female) don't go to the police, and don't even expect to be believed.

The analogy to ToonKritic wasn't an accidental one - while most of the twitter feeds and kickstarter traffic is now marked private, enough remains (or is copied to/referenced at r/NightInTheWoods) to know this was a #MeToo moment, with LOTS of people coming out of the woodwork to say "it wasn't just you", from the incidents that got him kicked out of the Canadian shared house/indy community, right up to the present day.

This medium post from Scott Benson really needs to be read.

 

[Nsxile 26,816]

5 hours ago, CypherHoof said:

Banned because "well, they didn't go to the police about it" isn't much of a criteria; most people in abusive relationships (male or female) don't go to the police, and don't even expect to be believed.

The analogy to ToonKritic wasn't an accidental one - while most of the twitter feeds and kickstarter traffic is now marked private, enough remains (or is copied to/referenced at r/NightInTheWoods) to know this was a #MeToo moment, with LOTS of people coming out of the woodwork to say "it wasn't just you", from the incidents that got him kicked out of the Canadian shared house/indy community, right up to the present day.

This medium post from Scott Benson really needs to be read.

 

Triple banned; banned because it certainly is a criteria, as if you're general serious about something you go to the police rather than post allegations about it on twitter and get people witch hunting the guy and causing him to lose his job. Also the accuser has a history of false allegations, which needs to be taken into account, so I'm still still highly skeptical of those allegations I'm afraid.

Banned because just because a bunch of people repeat the same thing doesn't make it true (SJWs will generally take the side of an accuser without ever asking or looking for evidence and throw 'innocent until proven guilty' under a bus just to further a political agenda), and as stated before he felt there were people that wanted him dead by driving him to suicide, as stated in these posts:

And finally, banned because that medium post sounds like a guy trying to save his career, avoid the manufactured outrage from SJWs and justify firing him rather than taking his employee's side more than anything. If he had so many problems with Alec, why did he even work with him in the first place? Why did he fire him only after the witch hunt had begun rather than the numerous occasions he was able to? Rather convenient to trash a guy who did most of the work on NITW and can't defend himself now, and also rather disloyal. 

Yeah... That post sounds totally legit /s  

And further banned for automatically assuming his guilt. 

[CypherHoof 26,482]

2 hours ago, Nsxile said:

Triple banned; banned because it certainly is a criteria, as if you're general serious about something you go to the police rather than post allegations about it on twitter and get people witch hunting the guy and causing him to lose his job.

There was no 'Job' to lose.

Here is the applicable part of the original announcement that the dev team were cutting ties with Alex (a week before he killed himself)

Did you fire Alec?

No. Infinite Fall isn't a company, it's a name we adopted for our team. There's no salary to cut. There's no Infinite Fall bank account, not Infinite Fall HQ. Our merch operation is already something that just Bethany and myself do, aside from sales of the soundtrack digitally and on vinyl. It's more like a band broke up or something.

Did you not-fire him over baseless allegations?

No, it was a combination of a lot of things from several parties and our experiences going back years. It sucked. You just saw some of it on twitter, or on here. I hope I've been clear enough about that.

Don't you know (whichever accuser) is a LIAR?

Well I guess you'll be happy to know this is more complex than any one person's accusation. At this point it's a much larger thing. It sucks. I hate this.

Does Alec get money from the game?

Yes, from game sales and soundtrack sales. That's all we can say for now. We'll update you when and if thing change. But we're not like unilaterally cutting off Alec's revenue share or something.

 

2 hours ago, Nsxile said:

Also the accuser has a history of false allegations, which needs to be taken into account,

See above; also, from a different post:

Earlier this week, developer Zoë Quinn came forward with allegations of past abuse and misconduct by Alec Holowka that they experienced nearly 8 years ago. Since then, many additional people came forward. Some corroborating Zoë's claims, others detailing their own experiences of misconduct in varied severity stretching from the past to more recently. Of particular note, one of the developers who was currently working with Alec on his new game, Albertine Watson, alleged misconduct from as early as this year. Following these allegations, Scott Benson and Bethany Hockenberry, the other developers behind the game, announced that they would be cutting ties with Alec moving forward, as well as canceling a current project. Finji, the game's publisher, also released a statement.

2 hours ago, Nsxile said:

so I'm still still highly skeptical of those allegations I'm afraid.

That's not a bad thing. one of the downsides of #MeToo has been the rash of SJWs on the hunt for "Toxic Masculinity" - as though it is an exclusively male thing to be an asshole to other people, or have personality traits/history that cause others to avoid working with you.  I would wager if Alex identified as anything other than male, those same SJWs would be saying Scott and Beth should be FORCED to give Alex a part in all their future projects, because it is discrimination not to...

2 hours ago, Nsxile said:

Banned because just because a bunch of people repeat the same thing doesn't make it true

No, it doesn't, although at some point you have to ask if a whole bunch of people chose to lie, or if they had finally compared notes and said "ok, wait, so it WASN'T just a one off?"

But equally, it was down to JUST what Scott and Beth believed at that point. I doubt they lied in their posts (much though you don't want to believe them, that doesn't make what they say false, either). Based on what they had been told, plus their own history with him, they didn't want to work with him any longer on new game content. NITW wasn't the first successful indy game he had worked on, and there would be no reason to assume it would be his last. Like a band that has "creative differences" they could all have moved on, and maybe even regrouped later on (usually that's because the royalties dried up, but...)

Note nothing here requires me to assume or assert Alex is guilty of anything; all I need assume is that Scott and Beth had the right to choose who they work with, and decided that wasn't going to be Alex.

3 hours ago, Nsxile said:

Why did he fire him only after the witch hunt had begun rather than the numerous occasions he was able to?

Banned for being unfamilar with the concept of the "final straw".

3 hours ago, Nsxile said:

Rather convenient to trash a guy who did most of the work on NITW

"most of the work" is one of those complex questions; assuming the post is to be believed, the design work was Scott/Beth, but making their mock-ups actually work in code was Alex; both are important parts of the process, but are halves of a single whole.

3 hours ago, Nsxile said:

and can't defend himself now, and also rather disloyal.

Killing yourself doesn't magically prevent criticism, just means you aren't around to hear it.  In any case, what difference does it make? Lets assume Alex did 99.9% of the story and graphic design as well as the coding and music, and Scott's contribution was basically picking and drawing the name.  NITW is a done deal, and Alex was getting royalties going forward; nothing there means Alex should automatically have a part of any future projects Scott should take part in, unless those future projects are also NITW (and even then, you could make a case that he should only have a fair share of the royalties)

[Nsxile 26,816]

33 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

There was no 'Job' to lose.

Banned because there was... Considering being cut loose means that he doesn't get to work on the project anymore... No matter what it is officially stated.

36 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

See above; also, from a different post:

Earlier this week, developer Zoë Quinn came forward with allegations of past abuse and misconduct by Alec Holowka that they experienced nearly 8 years ago. Since then, many additional people came forward. Some corroborating Zoë's claims, others detailing their own experiences of misconduct in varied severity stretching from the past to more recently. Of particular note, one of the developers who was currently working with Alec on his new game, Albertine Watson, alleged misconduct from as early as this year. Following these allegations, Scott Benson and Bethany Hockenberry, the other developers behind the game, announced that they would be cutting ties with Alec moving forward, as well as canceling a current project. Finji, the game's publisher, also released a statement.

You know... It's funny how those people come forward after someone intiates a witch hunt. As stated before, it proves nothing, and if Alec got rich via the game's success, which it was very successful, those 'victims' would have a motive for doing so... Also funny how they also didn't go to the police... Almost like the thing he posted about 3 years ago was coming true, and there was indeed a conspiracy against him. But nah... Just ignore that 

41 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

No, it doesn't, although at some point you have to ask if a whole bunch of people chose to lie, or if they had finally compared notes and said "ok, wait, so it WASN'T just a one off?"

Banned because see above.

46 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

But equally, it was down to JUST what Scott and Beth believed at that point. I doubt they lied in their posts (much though you don't want to believe them, that doesn't make what they say false, either). Based on what they had been told, plus their own history with him, they didn't want to work with him any longer on new game content. NITW wasn't the first successful indy game he had worked on, and there would be no reason to assume it would be his last. Like a band that has "creative differences" they could all have moved on, and maybe even regrouped later on (usually that's because the royalties dried up, but...)

Banned because it doesn't make it true either, and as he is the one making claims about Alec, the burden of proof falls upon him and the accusers to prove that what was said actually happened. I have seen no such evidence. The only thing I've seen is conjecture and slander from them. 

51 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Banned for being unfamilar with the concept of the "final straw".

Banned for being unfamilar with the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

52 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

"most of the work" is one of those complex questions; assuming the post is to be believed, the design work was Scott/Beth, but making their mock-ups actually work in code was Alex; both are important parts of the process, but are halves of a single whole.

Banned because he created the soundtrack for the game and coding is highly important process (I would know... )... Otherwise the game wouldn't count as a game and there'd be no music. Banned because when does 70% = half?

54 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Killing yourself doesn't magically prevent criticism, just means you aren't around to hear it.  In any case, what difference does it make? Lets assume Alex did 99.9% of the story and graphic design as well as the coding and music, and Scott's contribution was basically picking and drawing the name.  NITW is a done deal, and Alex was getting royalties going forward; nothing there means Alex should automatically have a part of any future projects Scott should take part in, unless those future projects are also NITW (and even then, you could make a case that he should only have a fair share of the royalties)

Banned because you're criticising a dead man over unproven allegations and conjecture. Banned for never hearing or understanding the concept of 'respect for the dead'. 

[CypherHoof 26,482]

32 minutes ago, Nsxile said:

Banned because there was... Considering being cut loose means that he doesn't get to work on the project anymore... No matter what it is officially stated.

Comes back to the whole "can't be forced to work together if two of the three have decided not to" thing.  NITW was done/closed, future projects have apparently been abandoned, not sure which "project" you feel Alex should be entitled to work on, and why he couldn't just continue it alone if the other two aren't interested in doing so? Obviously he couldn't work on NITW, but there was nothing stopping him getting new designers for a different project that is now stalled, but he has engine code for.

 

32 minutes ago, Nsxile said:

if Alec got rich via the game's success, which it was very successful, those 'victims' would have a motive for doing so...

He was already wealthy from the success of his previous game - in fact, the kickstarter for NITW leveraged that success.  It is certainly possible that some people who weren't successful would be resentful of someone who was, and if they don't have much or any money, its probably not even worth suing them for slander.

 

Quote

Also funny how they also didn't go to the police... Almost like the thing he posted about 3 years ago was coming true, and there was indeed a conspiracy against him. But nah... Just ignore that 

Well it is true that just because you have an actual psychological evaluation of being paranoid and delusional, that doesn't mean they AREN'T out to get you - it's just unlikely.

 

32 minutes ago, Nsxile said:

Banned because it doesn't make it true either, and as he is the one making claims about Alec, the burden of proof falls upon him and the accusers to prove that what was said actually happened. I have seen no such evidence. The only thing I've seen is conjecture and slander from them. 

Well we don't have access to a LOT of the twitter traffic that there was then/now; I have no idea what evidence you would expect to find though? Normally in a court of law, if you have several witnesses saying "this is what happened" and one defendant saying "they must be out to get me" the conclusion isn't "all those witnesses must be lying because they are jealous or something".

 

32 minutes ago, Nsxile said:

Banned for being unfamilar with the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

Banned because, as I said, Alex doesn't even NEED to be guilty, of anything. If they don't want to work with him, they don't want to work with him. In similar cases (such as the accusations against degrasse tyson) work on his shows was halted while an investigation took place; work on startalk has resumed, but the Cosmos thing may actually be cancelled (certainly there hasn't been any news on work resuming on that)

If nothing else, I think calling the people who gave you a roof over your head for three years after you got kicked out of your previous digs "sociopathic" is a pretty good indicator you aren't going to be besties any more

 

43 minutes ago, Nsxile said:

Banned because he created the soundtrack for the game and coding is highly important process (I would know... )... Otherwise the game wouldn't count as a game and there'd be no music. Banned because when does 70% = half?

Coding is highly important, but isn't that creative unless you are also doing the designing - and yeah, I would know too; the designers get paid a LOT more than the coders, and we resent it just a bit. Designers also get all the fame and glory - everyone knows Miyamoto created the Mario games - most people don't even bother watching the credits to see who coded them. 

Sound of course IS creative, and further, in a narrative-heavy game, has to support the narrative and imagery currently on-screen, so should be highly weighted. NITW is plot-heavy and has distinctive imagery; that doesn't devalue the coding entirely (because eventually you end up with something between "interactive novel" and "choose your own adventure" if you just throw a crude choice engine at it) but, providing the designer is clear enough on what is to be coded, any decent coder would achieve pretty much the same solution.

I have no idea how the royalties are actually worked out, but from the posts, it seems that Alex got the soundtrack royalties, Scott/Beth the artwork/merch, and they split the game royalties between them. Quick google doesn't say (and I doubt they would have put that online anyhow)

 

1 hour ago, Nsxile said:

Banned because you're criticising a dead man over unproven allegations and conjecture. Banned for never hearing or understanding the concept of 'respect for the dead'. 

I don't have an iron in this fire - I haven't made any claims, just noted what has been posted online, as I don't know any of the characters involved.

Respect for the dead doesn't include whitewashing their past, Epstein is quite definitely dead (and officially now a suicide) but that doesn't mean the lawsuits have been cancelled - any claims are now against his estate of course, but still - it isn't always about the deceased, it is often about doing right by the still-living.

[TBD 17,252]

Banned for sitting there for three hrs.

[Nsxile 26,816]

Banned because he's been sitting longer than that

[Longhaul 6,831]

Banned because.

[Nsxile 26,816]

Banned for invalid reason given 

[CypherHoof 26,482]

Banned for not stating how long you should sit reading before it is excessive

[Nsxile 26,816]

Banned because that depends on a number of factors