Is Starlight Glimmer Autistic? What proof is there? Let's Discuss

[ManaMinori 4,144]

"Why do people like doing different things than me"

 

Is this stemming from the fact that some people think Rainbow Dash is autistic and you don't like that idea

that doesn't answer a thing.

[PonyMage 227]

that doesn't answer a thing.

Your question expected an answer?

Seemed more like you were just trying to rain on other peoples' parade

[Triskie 2]

OK so I'm seeing everyone who is posting here either being a whiny idiot going "nuu she's not autistic!" For the reason of either A. The show would never do thattt. B. She has schizophrenia/she's a psychopath and/or a sociopath! Or, my personal favorite C. I don't have a reason just trust me. Then some equally whiny idiots respond by personally insulting them, and/or saying "yes she is autistic!" With no real reasons or counter argument, then both sides have the audacity to call it a debate! Anyway, I do believe Starlight is very autistic and here i will go over the symptoms she has, examples of said symptoms, and some counterpoints for those who are actually interested in debating the point, actually want to know if she's autistic, or are just open minded enought to listen to the other sides opinions instead of "debating" like a bunch of five year olds.

 

Symptoms and examples~

1. "Has trouble talking about feelings" 

Let's talk about this one. While most characters in the show will talk about their feelings at the drop of a hat, Starlight has to be pushed. Back when she was evil she would reject any opening to talk about her feelings that was offered to her, unlike most of the villains, and other characters who would easily open up. In the season six finale she had to be told to tell the mane six what was wrong by Luna, and in the episode Rock solid friendship she said "I feel like I don't want to talk about feelings"

2. Fails to understand jokes/sarcasm/vocal hints/body language

Let's go back to the season six finale, shall we? When Twilight hints that Starlight should take her to the Sunset festival, which was obvious to not only the viewers, but to Spike too, Starlight didn't understand, and decided to take Trixie instead. Again in the episode Rock solid friendship, Starlight doesn't know when Maud is messing with her about "being able to take over equestria with the right rock"

3. Good at one (or very few) things and not much else.

She's insanely good at magic. Like, she can match an alicorn princess. She studied one spell for years, its her cutiemark, and she's very op at it. But, tell me...is she really that good at much else?

4. Difficult to make friends.

In the episode No second prances it is very challenging for Starlight to make friends. She relies on magic, the one thing she's good at, to help her with continuing the conversations as well. And remember in the season six premiere when she was reunited with Sunburst? She could hardly keep the conversation with him going, and, while this could just be chalked up to the fact that they haven't talked I'm so long and ya, reuniting with a friend can be awkward, that's not the only time she's behaved like this. In fact, as a child she only had ONE friend and became VERY emotionally attached to him.

5. Lack of emotional control

Ohohoh THIS is a big one! Look at the reason she became evil in the first place. Her friend moved away, seriously? Some might say that this was a bit over dramatic? Or, well, more then a bit I'd say! But honestly? Autistic people overreact all the time! Well..usually they don't result to creating a creepy communist cult, but..you get the point

6. Sees logic over morals

Like in the episode Every little thing she does. When asked about her behavior she didn't think about how mind controlling people is wrong, she thought about how her spell had turned out wrong. She was genuinely missing the point! She wasn't being devious or avoiding the fact that she did something wrong, she genuinely had no idea that what she did was wrong, and, throughout the episode she was freaking out, but not because she mind controlled her friends into doing her bidding, but because twilight would be mad that she failed.

7. Delay in learning to talk and is often silent.

Now, look this isn't set in stone at all. In fact, this is a VERY weak argument, but its still existent, so i will talk about it. In the flashbacks we see to when she was a filly, she never spoke, not even in the moments where it would have been very appropriate for her to have spoken, and currently in a lot of her appearances she hasnt talked, even though she's a main character now she still doesn't talk all that often.

 

 

OK now let's see some counter arguments!

1. "This is a KIDS show, Sarah they wouldn't put an autistic pony in the show!" 

Well, they put a lot of other things in the show that normally wouldn't be in a kids show. For example the lesbian couple of Lyra and Bon Bon, that time Luna was self harming, or when Trixie tried to kill herself. None of those would normally be in a kids show, yet here we are.

2. "Well, she can actually function properly!"

Its called high functioning autism. I have it, for example and I actually live a mostly normal life! Now, look you have to remember that she's autistic, not mentally retarded. For example, you wouldn't say "she can't have depression" or "she can't have anxiety" because she can function, would you? NO of course you wouldn't, why? Because you understand that some mentally challenged people can function, and some cant, and that's just how things are, mental issues aren't all black and white. People aren't either neurotypical or unable to function, and you can't wrap up and put a pretty little bow on what autism is and how people with autism, or any mental disability for that matter, function or act.

3. "Shes not autistic in cannon so you can't say she is or isn't!"

Has that stopped the fandom before? Did that stop the fandom from saying "yes Lyra and bon bon are a couple"? Did that stop them from saying " yes Scootaloo is an orphan"? Or that "yes, Octavia and Vynle are roommates" despite there being little to no evidence? And tell me, did that stop the people working on the show from making it true? The fans accept non-cannon things as true all the time, and what's more, the show staff listen! I mean, do you really think when they were creating these characters that Derpy loved muffuns, or that Vinyls and Octavia were roommates, or that Lyra and Bon Bon were a couple? Do you really think that any of that was intentional?  Of course not! But guess what? The fandom made it happen. And guess what else? If you asked they'd say "yes, of course its true!" Not "well it isn't cannon.." And honestly think to yourself "would I say that about something I liked that the fandom made?" Remember, dont be a hippocrate. Don't just accept that Scootaloo is an orphan then say Starlight isn't autistic because its not cannon!

 

So that's the end of my rant. For anyone who wants to have a debate, and by debate I mean a friendly, respectful debate where we won't just call each other idiots, but instead give proof, facts, and possibly reach a conclusion or just agree to disagree, then bring it on!

 

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Triskie

[Ganondox 899]

29 minutes ago, Triskie said:

OK so I'm seeing everyone who is posting here either being a whiny idiot going "nuu she's not autistic!" For the reason of either A. The show would never do thattt. B. She has schizophrenia/she's a psychopath and/or a sociopath! Or, my personal favorite C. I don't have a reason just trust me. Then some equally whiny idiots respond by personally insulting them, and/or saying "yes she is autistic!" With no real reasons or counter argument, then both sides have the audacity to call it a debate! Anyway, I do believe Starlight is very autistic and here i will go over the symptoms she has, examples of said symptoms, and some counterpoints for those who are actually interested in debating the point, actually want to know if she's autistic, or are just open minded enought to listen to the other sides opinions instead of "debating" like a bunch of five year olds.

 

Symptoms and examples~

1. "Has trouble talking about feelings" 

Let's talk about this one. While most characters in the show will talk about their feelings at the drop of a hat, Starlight has to be pushed. Back when she was evil she would reject any opening to talk about her feelings that was offered to her, unlike most of the villains, and other characters who would easily open up. In the season six finale she had to be told to tell the mane six what was wrong by Luna, and in the episode Rock solid friendship she said "I feel like I don't want to talk about feelings"

2. Fails to understand jokes/sarcasm/vocal hints/body language

Let's go back to the season six finale, shall we? When Twilight hints that Starlight should take her to the Sunset festival, which was obvious to not only the viewers, but to Spike too, Starlight didn't understand, and decided to take Trixie instead. Again in the episode Rock solid friendship, Starlight doesn't know when Maud is messing with her about "being able to take over equestria with the right rock"

3. Good at one (or very few) things and not much else.

She's insanely good at magic. Like, she can match an alicorn princess. She studied one spell for years, its her cutiemark, and she's very op at it. But, tell me...is she really that good at much else?

4. Difficult to make friends.

In the episode No second prances it is very challenging for Starlight to make friends. She relies on magic, the one thing she's good at, to help her with continuing the conversations as well. And remember in the season six premiere when she was reunited with Sunburst? She could hardly keep the conversation with him going, and, while this could just be chalked up to the fact that they haven't talked I'm so long and ya, reuniting with a friend can be awkward, that's not the only time she's behaved like this. In fact, as a child she only had ONE friend and became VERY emotionally attached to him.

5. Lack of emotional control

Ohohoh THIS is a big one! Look at the reason she became evil in the first place. Her friend moved away, seriously? Some might say that this was a bit over dramatic? Or, well, more then a bit I'd say! But honestly? Autistic people overreact all the time! Well..usually they don't result to creating a creepy communist cult, but..you get the point

6. Sees logic over morals

Like in the episode Every little thing she does. When asked about her behavior she didn't think about how mind controlling people is wrong, she thought about how her spell had turned out wrong. She was genuinely missing the point! She wasn't being devious or avoiding the fact that she did something wrong, she genuinely had no idea that what she did was wrong, and, throughout the episode she was freaking out, but not because she mind controlled her friends into doing her bidding, but because twilight would be mad that she failed.

7. Delay in learning to talk and is often silent.

Now, look this isn't set in stone at all. In fact, this is a VERY weak argument, but its still existent, so i will talk about it. In the flashbacks we see to when she was a filly, she never spoke, not even in the moments where it would have been very appropriate for her to have spoken, and currently in a lot of her appearances she hasnt talked, even though she's a main character now she still doesn't talk all that often.

 

 

OK now let's see some counter arguments!

1. "This is a KIDS show, Sarah they wouldn't put an autistic pony in the show!" 

Well, they put a lot of other things in the show that normally wouldn't be in a kids show. For example the lesbian couple of Lyra and Bon Bon, that time Luna was self harming, or when Trixie tried to kill herself. None of those would normally be in a kids show, yet here we are.

2. "Well, she can actually function properly!"

Its called high functioning autism. I have it, for example and I actually live a mostly normal life! Now, look you have to remember that she's autistic, not mentally retarded. For example, you wouldn't say "she can't have depression" or "she can't have anxiety" because she can function, would you? NO of course you wouldn't, why? Because you understand that some mentally challenged people can function, and some cant, and that's just how things are, mental issues aren't all black and white. People aren't either neurotypical or unable to function, and you can't wrap up and put a pretty little bow on what autism is and how people with autism, or any mental disability for that matter, function or act.

3. "Shes not autistic in cannon so you can't say she is or isn't!"

Has that stopped the fandom before? Did that stop the fandom from saying "yes Lyra and bon bon are a couple"? Did that stop them from saying " yes Scootaloo is an orphan"? Or that "yes, Octavia and Vynle are roommates" despite there being little to no evidence? And tell me, did that stop the people working on the show from making it true? The fans accept non-cannon things as true all the time, and what's more, the show staff listen! I mean, do you really think when they were creating these characters that Derpy loved muffuns, or that Vinyls and Octavia were roommates, or that Lyra and Bon Bon were a couple? Do you really think that any of that was intentional?  Of course not! But guess what? The fandom made it happen. And guess what else? If you asked they'd say "yes, of course its true!" Not "well it isn't cannon.." And honestly think to yourself "would I say that about something I liked that the fandom made?" Remember, dont be a hippocrate. Don't just accept that Scootaloo is an orphan then say Starlight isn't autistic because its not cannon!

 

So that's the end of my rant. For anyone who wants to have a debate, and by debate I mean a friendly, respectful debate where we won't just call each other idiots, but instead give proof, facts, and possibly reach a conclusion or just agree to disagree, then bring it on!

 

 

First off, try not insulting literally everyone else the thread by calling them idiots, especially if you want people to actually have a serious discussion with you. Your attitude isn't going to get your any respect, learn some humility. I'm pretty much going to butt heads with you now just out of spite.

With traits you gave for Starlight being autistic, yeah, *some* of them are actually autistic traits, but they aren't enough for diagnosis. If you pull enough autistic behavior isolated circumstances you could make most people look autistic. Aside from all the technical details, the key thing is that it needs to be pervasive in childhood, which we don't get as we only get brief flashback of her childhood. Now to detailed critique.

1. Not actually an autistic trait. The related autistic trait is alexithymia, which is difficulty in recognizing ones own emotions (not talking about them, which is usually more of cultural thing, though obviously it's harder to talk about one's emotions if you find it harder to recognize them and people don't like doing things that are hard), but not everyone with autism has it. More importantly, you're missing the real reason why Starlight doesn't like talking about her emotions. It's because talking about her feelings brings up her past, which she doesn't like talking about. If a trait is better explained by something other than autism, then it doesn't count as an autistic trait. As such, no go.

2. Neither of those instances where failings of Starlight reading nonverbal cues, but of picking up on pragmatics of conversation. Technically that's just as much of a trait of as not picking up nonverbal queues, but the key is that only with Twilight did she actually fail, and everyone goofs up from time to time (especially when they are incentivized to do so like Starlight wanting to go with Trixie). With Maud, it was due to Maud's monotone delivery that she didn't immediately pick up it was a joke, but she was able to piece it out eventually using the pragmatics.  

3. I'll give you that one. Still could be explained by dedication rather than obsession though. 

4. The only thing suspect is that she had no friends as a child after Sunburst left. Other than that she was just awkward for other reasons relating to her history. 

5. She's actually pretty in control of her emotions, especially compared to some of the other major characters. 

6. Not an autistic trait, at all. First off, autistic people are actually tend to be hyper moral, both from being very emotional and from being rigid in approach to rules, neither of which are "logical" reasons for being moral. Second, just because you can't see the reasoning behind morality doesn't mean it isn't there. Her behavior there was more akin to a sociopath. 

7. Nobody talked in her flashbacks. That seems to be the style of flashbacks in general in this show. 

As for your counter arguments: 

1. None of those things actually happened, at least not in the way you're trying to frame it. Also, it's not autism is really an adult issue anyway, it's been brought up on Sesame Street and Arthur, but thematically those are quite different shows from MLP. It's not so much an issue of child versus adult as fantasy versus reality.   

2. You literally cannot diagnosis autism if it's not disabling in some way, same goes for depressive disorder and general anxiety disorder. "High-functioning" refers to intellectual functioning, not lack of disability. Now, someone can be autistic and no longer be disabled by learning skills and growing out the label, and arguably Starlight was disabled as a filly due to her complete lack of friends, but that's another discussion. 

3. Okay, sure. 

[Triskie 2]

1 hour ago, Ganondox said:

First off, try not insulting literally everyone else the thread by calling them idiots, especially if you want people to actually have a serious discussion with you. Your attitude isn't going to get your any respect, learn some humility. I'm pretty much going to butt heads with you now just out of spite.

With traits you gave for Starlight being autistic, yeah, *some* of them are actually autistic traits, but they aren't enough for diagnosis. If you pull enough autistic behavior isolated circumstances you could make most people look autistic. Aside from all the technical details, the key thing is that it needs to be pervasive in childhood, which we don't get as we only get brief flashback of her childhood. Now to detailed critique.

1. Not actually an autistic trait. The related autistic trait is alexithymia, which is difficulty in recognizing ones own emotions (not talking about them, which is usually more of cultural thing, though obviously it's harder to talk about one's emotions if you find it harder to recognize them and people don't like doing things that are hard), but not everyone with autism has it. More importantly, you're missing the real reason why Starlight doesn't like talking about her emotions. It's because talking about her feelings brings up her past, which she doesn't like talking about. If a trait is better explained by something other than autism, then it doesn't count as an autistic trait. As such, no go.

2. Neither of those instances where failings of Starlight reading nonverbal cues, but of picking up on pragmatics of conversation. Technically that's just as much of a trait of as not picking up nonverbal queues, but the key is that only with Twilight did she actually fail, and everyone goofs up from time to time (especially when they are incentivized to do so like Starlight wanting to go with Trixie). With Maud, it was due to Maud's monotone delivery that she didn't immediately pick up it was a joke, but she was able to piece it out eventually using the pragmatics.  

3. I'll give you that one. Still could be explained by dedication rather than obsession though. 

4. The only thing suspect is that she had no friends as a child after Sunburst left. Other than that she was just awkward for other reasons relating to her history. 

5. She's actually pretty in control of her emotions, especially compared to some of the other major characters. 

6. Not an autistic trait, at all. First off, autistic people are actually tend to be hyper moral, both from being very emotional and from being rigid in approach to rules, neither of which are "logical" reasons for being moral. Second, just because you can't see the reasoning behind morality doesn't mean it isn't there. Her behavior there was more akin to a sociopath. 

7. Nobody talked in her flashbacks. That seems to be the style of flashbacks in general in this show. 

As for your counter arguments: 

1. None of those things actually happened, at least not in the way you're trying to frame it. Also, it's not autism is really an adult issue anyway, it's been brought up on Sesame Street and Arthur, but thematically those are quite different shows from MLP. It's not so much an issue of child versus adult as fantasy versus reality.   

2. You literally cannot diagnosis autism if it's not disabling in some way, same goes for depressive disorder and general anxiety disorder. "High-functioning" refers to intellectual functioning, not lack of disability. Now, someone can be autistic and no longer be disabled by learning skills and growing out the label, and arguably Starlight was disabled as a filly due to her complete lack of friends, but that's another discussion. 

3. Okay, sure. 

I wasn't insulting, I was kind of stating a fact that if one person says "she doesn't have autism you idiots! She has schizophrenia!" Or something else with no proof, and another person replies "yes, she does! Stop hating on other peoples opinions!!!" Then its not a proper debate. Honestly I apologize if that came out wrong, but can you disagree when i i tell you thats not really a proper debate and shouldnt be referred to as such?

Anyway, I am very familiar with the symptoms of autism, thank you. I researched it (I research mental disabilities), before concluding that I have it, and getting myself a diagnoses, I continued researching it to figure out what symptoms I had and to specifically figure out what characters in my favorite books, TV shows, ect had it, so I think I know what I'm talking about. In fact, to make sure that I wasn't making mistakes with it I had multiple symptom lists, and checklists out while I was making that post. Although I do admit when I was making my original post I did make a big mistake in assuming everyone knew the symptoms as well as I did and I summed up a lot of them, using my own words, which may have lead to some confusion, so I apologize for that.

 

1. http://www.autism-causes.com/adult-autism.html bullet point number three "has trouble understanding others feelings, OR TALKING ABOUT THEIR OWN FEELINGS"

 

2. Well most of the fandom's knew that Maud wasn't being serious, didn't they? It was a very well read joke for most people, although I didn't get it at first, my niece had to explain it to me afterwards, but by watching reactions to the episode, and by the fact that my niece laughed, I chalked it up to my own autism, which is why this incident came to mind when I was making my original post.

 

3. Since you dropped this one I really can't say much, but yes, it can be interoperated either way.

 

4. Yes but she didn't have any friends other then Sunburst at the time. Have you ever met a little kid? Most of them have like twenty friends! In fact, that's one of the things that made me feel different in the first place, the fact that everyone around me for most of my childhood had 20+ friends and I had maybe one, usually less then that, though. And after I lost my one friend, I couldn't make more, and, in all honesty that's the first thing that made the doctor i was talking to about it take me seriously, in fact, the symptoms listed here were all it took to get my girlfriend diagnosed, so your earlier statement about how "they aren't enough for a diagnoses" is incorrect.

 

5. Remember that time when she enslaved a village because her friend moved away? Which she did because she was hurt, and emotional? I mean that has to be the overreaction of the century, and, actually, a lot of the fandom called her out on how unjustified that was.

 

6. That's actually a very well known symptoms, it appeared on most checklists and symptom lists I looked at, but, as I said earlier, since I am so familiar with these symptoms I didn't exactly quote it word for word. I won't go back to the symptom lists and check right now, but I will try to rephrase this. They prefer logic over emotion? Usually look at things from a logical standpoint? Ect? If you still don't ecognize the symptom I l will go back and look after you reply.

7. I know, like I said that was a very weak argument on my part.

 

1. OK, can you at least admit that the lesbian couple is canon? I mean, come on, how much more obvious does the show need to make it? And, that post wasn't directed towards you in particular, my friend brought up to me that autism was an adult topic, and I have seen people say it before, so I felt the need to mention it. 

 

2. My point wasn't that it doesn't affect the autistic person, it was that they can seem normal. I have a job as a science teacher, I have custody over my two nieces and my nephew (long story, don't need to get into it) I live in a nice house that I bought with my girlfriend and I can go out in social situations and be fine. And yet, it was very possible to diagnose me. And, fun fact, seeming less autistic due to learning doesn't make you any less autistic considering there's all light and sound sensitivity and need to stim ect. I could, if Itry, find some instance of Starlight stimming (or at least something similar/appearing to be doing stim like behavior weather she  is or not) and its not really easy to prove the light/noise sensitivity.

Edited May 14, 2017 by Triskie

[Ganondox 899]

6 hours ago, Triskie said:

I wasn't insulting, I was kind of stating a fact that if one person says "she doesn't have autism you idiots! She has schizophrenia!" Or something else with no proof, and another person replies "yes, she does! Stop hating on other peoples opinions!!!" Then its not a proper debate. Honestly I apologize if that came out wrong, but can you disagree when i i tell you thats not really a proper debate and shouldnt be referred to as such?

Anyway, I am very familiar with the symptoms of autism, thank you. I researched it (I research mental disabilities), before concluding that I have it, and getting myself a diagnoses, I continued researching it to figure out what symptoms I had and to specifically figure out what characters in my favorite books, TV shows, ect had it, so I think I know what I'm talking about. In fact, to make sure that I wasn't making mistakes with it I had multiple symptom lists, and checklists out while I was making that post. Although I do admit when I was making my original post I did make a big mistake in assuming everyone knew the symptoms as well as I did and I summed up a lot of them, using my own words, which may have lead to some confusion, so I apologize for that.

 

1. http://www.autism-causes.com/adult-autism.html bullet point number three "has trouble understanding others feelings, OR TALKING ABOUT THEIR OWN FEELINGS"

 

2. Well most of the fandom's knew that Maud wasn't being serious, didn't they? It was a very well read joke for most people, although I didn't get it at first, my niece had to explain it to me afterwards, but by watching reactions to the episode, and by the fact that my niece laughed, I chalked it up to my own autism, which is why this incident came to mind when I was making my original post.

 

3. Since you dropped this one I really can't say much, but yes, it can be interoperated either way.

 

4. Yes but she didn't have any friends other then Sunburst at the time. Have you ever met a little kid? Most of them have like twenty friends! In fact, that's one of the things that made me feel different in the first place, the fact that everyone around me for most of my childhood had 20+ friends and I had maybe one, usually less then that, though. And after I lost my one friend, I couldn't make more, and, in all honesty that's the first thing that made the doctor i was talking to about it take me seriously, in fact, the symptoms listed here were all it took to get my girlfriend diagnosed, so your earlier statement about how "they aren't enough for a diagnoses" is incorrect.

 

5. Remember that time when she enslaved a village because her friend moved away? Which she did because she was hurt, and emotional? I mean that has to be the overreaction of the century, and, actually, a lot of the fandom called her out on how unjustified that was.

 

6. That's actually a very well known symptoms, it appeared on most checklists and symptom lists I looked at, but, as I said earlier, since I am so familiar with these symptoms I didn't exactly quote it word for word. I won't go back to the symptom lists and check right now, but I will try to rephrase this. They prefer logic over emotion? Usually look at things from a logical standpoint? Ect? If you still don't ecognize the symptom I l will go back and look after you reply.

7. I know, like I said that was a very weak argument on my part.

 

1. OK, can you at least admit that the lesbian couple is canon? I mean, come on, how much more obvious does the show need to make it? And, that post wasn't directed towards you in particular, my friend brought up to me that autism was an adult topic, and I have seen people say it before, so I felt the need to mention it. 

 

2. My point wasn't that it doesn't affect the autistic person, it was that they can seem normal. I have a job as a science teacher, I have custody over my two nieces and my nephew (long story, don't need to get into it) I live in a nice house that I bought with my girlfriend and I can go out in social situations and be fine. And yet, it was very possible to diagnose me. And, fun fact, seeming less autistic due to learning doesn't make you any less autistic considering there's all light and sound sensitivity and need to stim ect. I could, if Itry, find some instance of Starlight stimming (or at least something similar/appearing to be doing stim like behavior weather she  is or not) and its not really easy to prove the light/noise sensitivity.

No, you were being insulting. "OK so I'm seeing everyone who is posting here either being a *whiny idiot* going...then some equally *whiny idiots* respond..." You literally called everyone in the thread a whiny idiot. That's not stating a fact, that's you being a jerk. And don't think for the slightest second that you are any better. Get off your high horse and stop acting like you're the voice of reason here. 

What do you mean, you research mental disabilities? Reading descriptions off the web does not substitute getting an actual education. It's pretty clear you have some fundamental misconceptions about what mental disability is, coming from some one who actually studies this stuff in college. 

1. A random site on the website that looks like it was made by a 12 year old said so, so it MUST be true.  The main official sources for autistic symptoms are the DSM or ICD, neither of which are referenced. In the very least the source should cite studies to justify it's claims, and that website has NOTHING. I'm going to say right now that list is NOT a list of traits in autistic adults, it's a list of traits in autistic CHILDREN, and a pretty poor one at that. I already explained why this isn't actually a trait of autism, I bet you don't even know what alexithymia is. Also, you missed the important part of the counter, WHY Starlight has trouble talking about her feelings. 

2. And so did Starlight. People didn't know Maud was joking at first because she gave absolutely no hints, but she gave the hints slightly after the delivery. That fact you didn't get it even after the actual hints came is where you misunderstood the pragmatics. 

4. I said that actually was a trait. And no, it's not enough, you only gave one B criterion (the obsession thing), and at least two are needed for diagnosis. Either the doctor actually went with more than you claimed, or he fudged it because it was obvious that she had autism for other reasons and she would benefit from the diagnosis. 

5. That's not a lack of emotional control, that's just coming up with bizarre idea and acting on it. Something like that requires long term planning, a lack of emotional control thing would be spur of the moment sort of thing. 

6. No, it is not. What it is is stupid stereotype that no one who actually has experience in the field believes. Do you actually know ANYONE with autism who was diagnosed before you read up some stuff on the internet? What this trait corresponds best with is not autism, but Thinking versus Feeling in the Myer-Briggs Type Indicator, which isn't even scientific, and saying it's logic versus feeling is slightly misrepresenting it anyway. It's not even the Myer-Briggs trait most associated with autism, the actual trait that's closely correlated with autism is introversion. 

1. Actually, that's the thing that is the LEAST canon. At least the other two are directly there, even though it's really just fans misinterpreting the situation as it wasn't the writer's intent. There is absolutely no inclusion of a lesbian couple, they just clarified two characters the fandom likes shipping are close friends. 

2. Well then you should have clarified that in the first place. Also I see no evidence Starlight has any sort of sensory things, only ponies I think think with those symptoms would be Fluttershy and Limestone and maybe Maud and Pinkie Pie. 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Ganondox

[Jeric 46,835]

10 hours ago, Triskie said:

OK so I'm seeing everyone who is posting here either being a whiny idiot going "nuu she's not autistic!" For the reason of either A. The show would never do thattt. B. She has schizophrenia/she's a psychopath and/or a sociopath! Or, my personal favorite C. I don't have a reason just trust me. Then some equally whiny idiots respond by personally insulting them, and/or saying "yes she is autistic!" With no real reasons or counter argument, then both sides have the audacity to call it a debate! Anyway, I do believe Starlight is very autistic and here i will go over the symptoms she has, examples of said symptoms, and some counterpoints for those who are actually interested in debating the point, actually want to know if she's autistic, or are just open minded enought to listen to the other sides opinions instead of "debating" like a bunch of five year olds.

 

Symptoms and examples~

1. "Has trouble talking about feelings" 

Let's talk about this one. While most characters in the show will talk about their feelings at the drop of a hat, Starlight has to be pushed. Back when she was evil she would reject any opening to talk about her feelings that was offered to her, unlike most of the villains, and other characters who would easily open up. In the season six finale she had to be told to tell the mane six what was wrong by Luna, and in the episode Rock solid friendship she said "I feel like I don't want to talk about feelings"

2. Fails to understand jokes/sarcasm/vocal hints/body language

Let's go back to the season six finale, shall we? When Twilight hints that Starlight should take her to the Sunset festival, which was obvious to not only the viewers, but to Spike too, Starlight didn't understand, and decided to take Trixie instead. Again in the episode Rock solid friendship, Starlight doesn't know when Maud is messing with her about "being able to take over equestria with the right rock"

3. Good at one (or very few) things and not much else.

She's insanely good at magic. Like, she can match an alicorn princess. She studied one spell for years, its her cutiemark, and she's very op at it. But, tell me...is she really that good at much else?

4. Difficult to make friends.

In the episode No second prances it is very challenging for Starlight to make friends. She relies on magic, the one thing she's good at, to help her with continuing the conversations as well. And remember in the season six premiere when she was reunited with Sunburst? She could hardly keep the conversation with him going, and, while this could just be chalked up to the fact that they haven't talked I'm so long and ya, reuniting with a friend can be awkward, that's not the only time she's behaved like this. In fact, as a child she only had ONE friend and became VERY emotionally attached to him.

5. Lack of emotional control

Ohohoh THIS is a big one! Look at the reason she became evil in the first place. Her friend moved away, seriously? Some might say that this was a bit over dramatic? Or, well, more then a bit I'd say! But honestly? Autistic people overreact all the time! Well..usually they don't result to creating a creepy communist cult, but..you get the point

6. Sees logic over morals

Like in the episode Every little thing she does. When asked about her behavior she didn't think about how mind controlling people is wrong, she thought about how her spell had turned out wrong. She was genuinely missing the point! She wasn't being devious or avoiding the fact that she did something wrong, she genuinely had no idea that what she did was wrong, and, throughout the episode she was freaking out, but not because she mind controlled her friends into doing her bidding, but because twilight would be mad that she failed.

7. Delay in learning to talk and is often silent.

Now, look this isn't set in stone at all. In fact, this is a VERY weak argument, but its still existent, so i will talk about it. In the flashbacks we see to when she was a filly, she never spoke, not even in the moments where it would have been very appropriate for her to have spoken, and currently in a lot of her appearances she hasnt talked, even though she's a main character now she still doesn't talk all that often.

 

 

OK now let's see some counter arguments!

1. "This is a KIDS show, Sarah they wouldn't put an autistic pony in the show!" 

Well, they put a lot of other things in the show that normally wouldn't be in a kids show. For example the lesbian couple of Lyra and Bon Bon, that time Luna was self harming, or when Trixie tried to kill herself. None of those would normally be in a kids show, yet here we are.

2. "Well, she can actually function properly!"

Its called high functioning autism. I have it, for example and I actually live a mostly normal life! Now, look you have to remember that she's autistic, not mentally retarded. For example, you wouldn't say "she can't have depression" or "she can't have anxiety" because she can function, would you? NO of course you wouldn't, why? Because you understand that some mentally challenged people can function, and some cant, and that's just how things are, mental issues aren't all black and white. People aren't either neurotypical or unable to function, and you can't wrap up and put a pretty little bow on what autism is and how people with autism, or any mental disability for that matter, function or act.

3. "Shes not autistic in cannon so you can't say she is or isn't!"

Has that stopped the fandom before? Did that stop the fandom from saying "yes Lyra and bon bon are a couple"? Did that stop them from saying " yes Scootaloo is an orphan"? Or that "yes, Octavia and Vynle are roommates" despite there being little to no evidence? And tell me, did that stop the people working on the show from making it true? The fans accept non-cannon things as true all the time, and what's more, the show staff listen! I mean, do you really think when they were creating these characters that Derpy loved muffuns, or that Vinyls and Octavia were roommates, or that Lyra and Bon Bon were a couple? Do you really think that any of that was intentional?  Of course not! But guess what? The fandom made it happen. And guess what else? If you asked they'd say "yes, of course its true!" Not "well it isn't cannon.." And honestly think to yourself "would I say that about something I liked that the fandom made?" Remember, dont be a hippocrate. Don't just accept that Scootaloo is an orphan then say Starlight isn't autistic because its not cannon!

 

So that's the end of my rant. For anyone who wants to have a debate, and by debate I mean a friendly, respectful debate where we won't just call each other idiots, but instead give proof, facts, and possibly reach a conclusion or just agree to disagree, then bring it on!

 

 

Hard to read past your first paragraph since it was a tad ... caustic. New episode aired in Canada today you may want to watch. You may learn something. 

I will tell you that your analogy using Depression and Anxiety (assuming you mean GAD and MDD/CD) is a little absurd medically speaking. You lumped together a personality disorder, an anxiety disorder, and developmental disorder into the same pot. To those that actually know the science involved, it makes you sound like you are ignorant of the fields involved. It's best if you pick a Cluster and stick to it, otherwise you enter territory where you deal with completely different etiologies ... basically there's a world of difference between the serotonergic system and synaptic gaps. 

It's probably best if you focused non heritable disorders outside of PD's when discussing a congenital (likely) based neurological disorder like ASD. 

[Ganondox 899]

37 minutes ago, Jeric said:

Hard to read past your first paragraph since it was a tad ... caustic. New episode aired in Canada today you may want to watch. You may learn something. 

I will tell you that your analogy using Depression and Anxiety (assuming you mean GAD and MDD/CD) is a little absurd medically speaking. You lumped together a personality disorder, an anxiety disorder, and developmental disorder into the same pot. To those that actually know the science involved, it makes you sound like you are ignorant of the fields involved. It's best if you pick a Cluster and stick to it, otherwise you enter territory where you deal with completely different etiologies ... basically there's a world of difference between the serotonergic system and synaptic gaps. 

It's probably best if you focused non heritable disorders outside of PD's when discussing a congenital (likely) based neurological disorder like ASD. 

I'm not sure if it's because of where you live or medicine versus psychology or it's just a mistake, but MDD is classified as a mood disorder, not a personality disorder. Also, with the exception of neurocognitive and substance related disorders, etiology isn't included in the DSM 5 as it's just too complicated and as it's stands doesn't provide much useful information for treatment. Still, there is a big different between neurodevelopemental disorders and the rest due to when they onset, they aren't really comparable at all regardless of specific etiology. 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Ganondox

[Jeric 46,835]

12 minutes ago, Ganondox said:

I'm not sure if it's because of where you live or medicine versus psychology or it's just a mistake, but MDD is classified as a mood disorder, not a personality disorder.

And you are 100% correct. One of those moments my mind and fingers weren't on the same page. 

 

 

You are right that I focus on the medical science more than I do the DSM-5 and non-medical behavioral studies (when the community fixes their current research/replication crisis I'll change my opinion) but that is a whole nother debate. 

The DSM is also quite dynamic and (depending on the issue) leads to much debate within CBT focused therapists. And it's amusing because the actual science of neurology is progressing and making real breakthroughs that the therapy field guide ignores. But insurance companies need a standard so I am fine with it's use, even though clinicians play loose with the APA's Holy Bible. 

That isn't to say CBT is bad. It isn't at all and it's supported by what we actually know about how synaptic routing and density works. 

But my point stands that as far as a discussion on ASD - bringing up mood/personality/anxiety disorders muddles and confuses the overall discussion, particularly used as analogy. Apples to Volkswagens. 

And yes, I'm still dubious of any studies that ignore the congenital discussion. Those that do run into dead ends. As far as environmental, the epigenetics research into ASD may move the needle even further. 

As I said previously, I don't know of any therapist who would diagnose Starlight with ASD based on her entire body of appearances. There are other characters that would fit though. 

[Ganondox 899]

52 minutes ago, Jeric said:

And you are 100% correct. One of those moments my mind and fingers weren't on the same page. 

 

 

You are right that I focus on the medical science more than I do the DSM-5 and non-medical behavioral studies (when the community fixes their current research/replication crisis I'll change my opinion) but that is a whole nother debate. 

The DSM is also quite dynamic and (depending on the issue) leads to much debate within CBT focused therapists. And it's amusing because the actual science of neurology is progressing and making real breakthroughs that the therapy field guide ignores. But insurance companies need a standard so I am fine with it's use, even though clinicians play loose with the APA's Holy Bible. 

That isn't to say CBT is bad. It isn't at all and it's supported by what we actually know about how synaptic routing and density works. 

But my point stands that as far as a discussion on ASD - bringing up mood/personality/anxiety disorders muddles and confuses the overall discussion, particularly used as analogy. Apples to Volkswagens. 

And yes, I'm still dubious of any studies that ignore the congenital discussion. Those that do run into dead ends. As far as environmental, the epigenetics research into ASD may move the needle even further. 

As I said previously, I don't know of any therapist who would diagnose Starlight with ASD based on her entire body of appearances. There are other characters that would fit though. 

I'm skeptical of neuroscience as well, probably just biased because I find it to sometimes to be rather dehumanizing, but I see just as many contradictory biology based studies as behavioral ones when it comes to autism research. Not sure if the replication crisis seeped into their as well, but there is a ton of nonsense being poised as revolutionary finds as that's how you get money, and I think there is way too much money floating around for biomedical research for autism, and not nearly enough for adaptive functioning. The main thing that's clear from etiological research of autism is that it's actually myriad of different conditions, and until we find a way to meaningfully differentiate it into different subtypes I don't think etiology is particularly meaningful for discussing whether someone is autistic or not. Only real consistent things I see is the cerebellum, temporal lobes, and amygdala are probably the most relevant brain structures, it's main hallmark is an excess of synaptic connections or something like that, and I swear if I hear someone call oxytocin the love hormone one more time... (Though it does make me think, has any research been conducted on autistic mothers? If oxytocin is in fact related something should be seen there due to it's production during childbirth. Also probably a gold mine of information in how autism manifests in woman there once we stop treating woman as simply being protected from autism and acknowledge what effect it actually has on them in the apparently subclinical realm.)

I agree with the muddying the conversation thing, as it's very different. What characters do you think the body of autistic appearances? Also, on a completely unrelated note, where can I find today's episode? 

 

Edited May 14, 2017 by Ganondox

[Ganondox 899]

_

Also just noticed a bunch of comments got deleted, probably due to the mini-flame war and some innocent posts probably got removed in the process. Just going to reiterate facing APA sanctions for diagnosing Starlight Glimmer as autistic is kinda ridiculous as misdiagnosis is fairly common even in much clearer cases than this (especially when trying to diagnose adults), and sanctions are reserved for more severe ethical violations, and while it's a bit of a stretch I still think Starlight Glimmer being autistic is still in the realm of possibilities, especially if there was more information about her childhood interactions with foals other than Sunburst. 

[Jeric 46,835]

@Ganondox there isn't a replication crisis in neurology. Biomedical specific to oncology, yes -- but even that isn't anything like the psychology crisis, since that little mess is caused by questionable research practices, failure to publish negative findings, and pressure to publish. Im ignoring the confirmation bias thing since that  applies to any field, Science or otherwise. Anyway, there is a reason that the psychology crisis is often referred to as a scandal, rather than it being due to being in a field that is heavily funded with little success. 

And agree to disagree with sanctions. If I had my way, they would pass US Federal legislation requiring L.C.S.W's to get a concurrent opinion from a Psy.D before clinical diagnosis, and referral to an M.D. familiar with neurodevelopmental disorders with the PCP taking the coordinating lead. Comprehensive team focused health care models need to be a thing now that we are moving to digital records. Mental health does not live on an island. 

At least mental health care would have better enforcement of diagnostic standards, particularly the first rule of Mental Health Disorders that is taught in every PSY410 course. Because of that rule ... Starlight Glimmer should never be diagnosed with Autism. 

If people want to view her that way in order to create an avatar for their own purposes in dealing with things, go for it. Just don't assume that support for that view should go without saying. 

You are correct with respect to oxytocin being oversimplified, but it's likely not playing a role in ASD. It also isn't effective as a treatment long term as it actually creates a tolerance that negatively impacts social interaction ... basically it makes things better before it makes things worse. A common theme in mental health pharmacology, unfortunately. 

[Ganondox 899]

10 minutes ago, Jeric said:

@Ganondox there isn't a replication crisis in neurology. Biomedical specific to oncology, yes -- but even that isn't anything like the psychology crisis, since that little mess is caused by questionable research practices, failure to publish negative findings, and pressure to publish. Im ignoring the confirmation bias thing since that  applies to any field, Science or otherwise. Anyway, there is a reason that the psychology crisis is often referred to as a scandal, rather than it being due to being in a field that is heavily funded with little success. 

And agree to disagree with sanctions. If I had my way, they would pass US Federal legislation requiring L.C.S.W's to get a concurrent opinion from a Psy.D before clinical diagnosis, and referral to an M.D. familiar with neurodevelopmental disorders with the PCP taking the coordinating lead. Comprehensive team focused health care models need to be a thing now that we are moving to digital records. Mental health does not live on an island. 

At least mental health care would have better enforcement of diagnostic standards, particularly the first rule of Mental Health Disorders that is taught in every PSY410 course. Because of that rule ... Starlight Glimmer should never be diagnosed with Autism. 

If people want to view her that way in order to create an avatar for their own purposes in dealing with things, go for it. Just don't assume that support for that view should go without saying. 

You are correct with respect to oxytocin being oversimplified, but it's likely not playing a role in ASD. It also isn't effective as a treatment long term as it actually creates a tolerance that negatively impacts social interaction ... basically it makes things better before it makes things worse. A common theme in mental health pharmacology, unfortunately. 

Especially psychology, but I thought medical studies in general also had the same problem, maybe I was just confusing it with just the oncology was as now that I think about most the similar medical studies are cancer related. 

In my school the class was PSY342 because we do the numbering a bit differently than many places, and I'm pretty sure the first rule was "it should cause distress or impair functioning" which is present...but I think you're referring to "it needs to be the best explanation for the behavior". In which case, I'd agree for her adult presentation, BUT it's still not explained why Sunburst was her only friend, and why the end of that friendship had such an impact on her life. I think that if for some reason Glimmer was going in for an autism assessment and we had some more childhood records, she *might* get the pass. Generally I agree with you on the avatar versus support thing, but I think there is a little bit more than nothing in this case. It's all kinda beside the point whether they should actually be diagnosed with anything anyway as they aren't seeking diagnosis, they are cartoon ponies where everything is a bit odd and thus it can't be perfectly matched with our system.

Really I don't really know anything about health as a public practice other than the bare necessities for my class as I still have no idea what I'm going to do with my life (which is kinda ironic considering my father used to be a public health educator, and I'm going to be starting a research project with health students tomorrow), I'm just know the theory really well and have a lot of experience volunteering and other interactions with communities, but from my understanding sanctions for misdiagnosis should require more than just a single case where there least some of the criteria were met (and I don't even know if you can get sanctioned for misdiagnosing at all, it seems only that treating informal diagnosis as formal diagnosis violates the ethical code). If you're referring to the differential diagnosis (which I've never gone over formally as I've never been trained to make a formal diagnosis, just informal diagnosis, so I might be getting some stuff wrong) when you were talking about the first rule, steps 1-3 can be ruled out as whatever is wrong with her social life she isn't malingering, and she isn't using substances or has a general medical condition, so I don't think there is any problem there either. 

Yeah, I don't think oxytocin plays a role either, but I'm still think more research should be done on it just to make sure, especially in a more natural context. Even if does play a role, it's role is obviously much more complicated than a deficiency. Main thing I've I understand with pharmaceutical treatment is that it's generally used just to get people functioning well enough to begin CBT, so it could still have some promise in clinical applications. Still think it's mainly a dead lead though. 

Oh, and I'm still curious about which ponies you think meet the "entire body of appearances".