Bunk G5 Criticisms

[Doctor Doom 93]

3 hours ago, Misty Shadow said:

Oh yeah, Quantum knows his stuff here, I admit to getting mild inspiration for a few of my essays from this take of his in the past. He did a good job scratching the surface then and just recently, this guy did a really good job going balls deep. 

This is just the very first part too.  This guy has told me that he likes my essays. Those don't even compare to this and what he has planned for the future. 

Thank you for these vids I've been trying to find g5 defense vids for ages 

[Misty Shadow 7,866]

Time to give this thread a bump with an expansion on a rebuttal to a bunk G5 criticism that was talked about in a video I made a topic for.

https://mlpforums.com/topic/202993-spanish-speaking-mlp-fan-debunks-supposed-mlp-g4g5-lore-contradictions/#comment-6234817

This is the bunk criticism in question...

"Earth ponies being given the power to magically grow plants contradicts them having the power to be super strong."

Earth ponies being super strong as part of a secret magic power is only something the fandom came up with (it's never stated in FiM that this is true) in addition to being something that contradicts what Lauren Faust intended. 

Yes, you read that right. Not magical...but possessing a connection to the land (even though they're shown to have magic in Twilight's Kingdom, note the "not magical like" wording). So what G5 came up with was actually more in tune with what Faust wanted in the show than what the fandom came up with. 

[Octavian 5,421]

8 hours ago, Misty Shadow said:

Time to give this thread a bump with an expansion on a rebuttal to a bunk G5 criticism that was talked about in a video I made a topic for.

https://mlpforums.com/topic/202993-spanish-speaking-mlp-fan-debunks-supposed-mlp-g4g5-lore-contradictions/#comment-6234817

This is the bunk criticism in question...

"Earth ponies being given the power to magically grow plants contradicts them having the power to be super strong."

Earth ponies being super strong as part of a secret magic power is only something the fandom came up with (it's never stated in FiM that this is true) in addition to being something that contradicts what Lauren Faust intended. 

Yes, you read that right. Not magical...but possessing a connection to the land (even though they're shown to have magic in Twilight's Kingdom, note the "not magical like" wording). So what G5 came up with was actually more in tune with what Faust wanted in the show than what the fandom came up with. 

I've been writing a G1 fic, and it's interesting how G1 dealt with the difference. The character that best represents this is 'Magic Star' she performs magic... with a friggin wand  The unicorns are all pretty fey and have a sparkly 'winking out' magic in their nature (which conforms to legend). You don't need to have wings or horns to be special. What you need, is drive. Anyhoof, G5's problem in terms of lore is that plant magic could have worked, but it's incredibly vague in G5, like most of G5's lore.

Compare what G5 says about magic, to what G4 does. In Boast Busters we had an idea of magic that transcends anything that G5 did: most unicorns' magic conforms to their talent, but if you try very hard you can be like Twilight, a unicorn with access to all spells! You have unicorns struggling to cast more powerful spells. In contast, G5's earth pony magic (and all magic tbh) feels unearned and random.

 

[Tacodidra 61,159]

8 hours ago, Misty Shadow said:

Earth ponies being super strong as part of a secret magic power is only something the fandom came up with (it's never stated in FiM that this is true) in addition to being something that contradicts what Lauren Faust intended.

 There were some canon references to Earth pony strength, though they seem to have been after Faust left the show. I could only find these after a quick search, I thought there were more...

 

Celestia in "Twilight's Kingdom, Part 1":

Quote

Without pegasi to control the weather, there will be no rain in Equestria. There is word he has gone after Earth ponies as well. Without their strength, they will not be able to tend the land.

Applejack in "Sparkle's Seven" (though it might just refer to her personal strength):

Quote

I'm strong, Twilight, but not even I can buck through solid rock.

 

 

8 hours ago, Misty Shadow said:

This is the bunk criticism in question...

"Earth ponies being given the power to magically grow plants contradicts them having the power to be super strong."

I still completely agree this criticism is nonsense – I don't see how growing plants and strength are mutually exclusive.

[Misty Shadow 7,866]

On 2024-08-30 at 10:09 AM, North Star said:

I've been writing a G1 fic, and it's interesting how G1 dealt with the difference. The character that best represents this is 'Magic Star' she performs magic... with a friggin wand  The unicorns are all pretty fey and have a sparkly 'winking out' magic in their nature (which conforms to legend). You don't need to have wings or horns to be special. What you need, is drive. Anyhoof, G5's problem in terms of lore is that plant magic could have worked, but it's incredibly vague in G5, like most of G5's lore.

Compare what G5 says about magic, to what G4 does. In Boast Busters we had an idea of magic that transcends anything that G5 did: most unicorns' magic conforms to their talent, but if you try very hard you can be like Twilight, a unicorn with access to all spells! You have unicorns struggling to cast more powerful spells. In contast, G5's earth pony magic (and all magic tbh) feels unearned and random.

 

Don't even get me started on how much stuff in G4 is vague and left up for the fans to decide. I also...don't see what they could've been less vague about regarding plant magic. More details about what kind of plants only certain ponies can create, for example, does not sound to me like something that would make anything more interesting. And the whole "look at how hard unicorns had to struggle to have powerful magic like Twilight" thing...you know that a common complaint about unicorns in G4 was that there were too many "special unicorns" with overpowered magic, right? Furthermore, the very second episode of Make Your Mark was about dealing with earth ponies struggling to control their new magic. And unearned? After all that time they spent not having magical powers like the unicorns and pegasi?

On 2024-08-30 at 10:13 AM, Tacodidra said:

 There were some canon references to Earth pony strength, though they seem to have been after Faust left the show. I could only find these after a quick search, I thought there were more...

 

Celestia in "Twilight's Kingdom, Part 1":

On 2024-08-30 at 10:13 AM, Tacodidra said:

Without pegasi to control the weather, there will be no rain in Equestria. There is word he has gone after Earth ponies as well. Without their strength, they will not be able to tend the land.

Applejack in "Sparkle's Seven" (though it might just refer to her personal strength):

On 2024-08-30 at 10:13 AM, Tacodidra said:

I'm strong, Twilight, but not even I can buck through solid rock.

I still completely agree this criticism is nonsense – I don't see how growing plants and strength are mutually exclusive.

For the first quote, two things. First of all, context is key. Anyone Tirek drained of their magic also felt drained of their strength, not just the earth ponies. Second, the "not being able to tend the land" part could easily be referring to what their inner magic actually pertains to, thus being consistent with what Faust wanted. For the second quote, Applejack is very likely only referring to her personal strength, not earth pony strength as the part of the fandom who claims super strength is the magic power of earth ponies would see it...because part of that super strength is being able to break through solid rock the way Maud Pie can.

...But yes, most importantly, they can have "flower power" and super strength. No one ever called Superman possessing heat vision and the power to fly inconsistent. 

Edited September 1 by Misty Shadow

[Octavian 5,421]

16 minutes ago, Misty Shadow said:

I also...don't see what they could've been less vague about regarding plant magic.

I mean... what isn't vague about it? Are the plants summoned or were they pre-existing and augmented by the magic? Are the plants connected to the character of the pony in some way?

16 minutes ago, Misty Shadow said:

More details about what kind of plants only certain ponies can create, for example, does not sound to me like something that would make anything more interesting.

Fair enough, although a different point to whether the lore makes sense or not. G4, like a good fantasy, was good at weaving lore into the story. 

Quote

there were too many "special unicorns" with overpowered magic, right

I think G5 aimed at equalising the different breeds of ponies with this 'plant magic' thing. Equality is a goal I strongly agree with, but you demonstrate the equal worth of ponies precisely by saying some ponies choose to strive and achieve, and others choose not to. They may end up at different places, but their responsibility for the outcome is equal. I think G4 does a good job of that. G5 feels like Disney, which has randomly-superpowered Princesses.

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dealing with earth ponies struggling to control their new magic.

  There was a stab at that, yes. But even this was unearned character by character. How was control gained over the plant-magic, again? 

 

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After all that time they spent not having magical powers like the unicorns and pegasi?

This isn't something the earth ponies have done to gain powers, which is what I think of as earning the powers.

[Misty Shadow 7,866]

13 minutes ago, North Star said:

I mean... what isn't vague about it? Are the plants summoned or were they pre-existing and augmented by the magic? Are the plants connected to the character of the pony in some way?

Fair enough, although a different point to whether the lore makes sense or not. G4, like a good fantasy, was good at weaving lore into the story. 

I think G5 aimed at equalising the different breeds of ponies with this 'plant magic' thing. Equality is a goal I strongly agree with, but you demonstrate the equal worth of ponies precisely by saying some ponies choose to strive and achieve, and others choose not to. They may end up at different places, but their responsibility for the outcome is equal. I think G4 does a good job of that. G5 feels like Disney, which has randomly-superpowered Princesses.

  There was a stab at that, yes. But even this was unearned character by character. How was control gained over the plant-magic, again? 

 

This isn't something the earth ponies have done to gain powers, which is what I think of as earning the powers.

...They put a hoof on the ground and a plant grows out of it. What more do you want? MLP is already not supposed to be lore-heavy, I don't know how many times I've had to reiterate this, and now...plants connected to character? What is this, a show for botanists? Also, no pony in G5 is what I'd call "overpowered". Even Sunny has limitations on her alicorn abilities. TYT's Neighfever also showed Dahlia needing to be taught how to use her earth pony magic and accidentally growing a flower too big that caused trouble for a whole town, so the level of power does depend on the user. I mean, could you imagine an earth pony besides Hitch being able to fight off Opaline? 

In the end, it doesn't matter though because this is a series meant for simple entertainment, not something meant to be hyper-analyzed. Debates like this are fruitless because it's all about trying to breathe complexity into something not intended to be complex to try and frame it as "having better design" when it's clear from all the inconsistencies in G4's lore that they weren't meticulously designing anything. 

[Octavian 5,421]

2 minutes ago, Misty Shadow said:

...They put a hoof on the ground and a plant grows out of it. What more do you want?

That's like saying that G1 and G4 unicorns just sparkle those horns and 'the magic' happens. Boast Busters explained the magic a bit like a mixture of superheroes, like X Men, with their abilities, and Harry Potter, with study. That was pretty cool. In the Return of Tambelon, they had a whole ep about unicorn magic :3 

 

Quote

MLP is already not supposed to be lore-heavy

This might be a taste thing. If you prefer ponies lore-light, then that is fine. As for how Hasbro wanted people to enjoy the ponies, all they wanted was people buying toys   Lore was on the back of all the toys, though, so I don't think that MLP is definitively lore-light.

Quote

plants connected to character? What is this, a show for botanists?

Posey could have had a little episode about how her attitude to her garden has altered, maybe? The plant magic comes off as random

 

14 minutes ago, Misty Shadow said:

could you imagine an earth pony besides Hitch being able to fight off Opaline? 

Hitch is shown mastering magic a bit, and he is shown to care for animals... so it kinda fits.

 

16 minutes ago, Misty Shadow said:

Debates like this are fruitless because it's all about trying to breathe complexity into something not intended to be complex to try and frame it as "having better design" when it's clear from all the inconsistencies in G4's lore that they weren't meticulously designing anything. 

I agree - G5, like G3, is aiming for a simple, happy vibe. For a lot of people, that is more than enough, and that's fine. I hang around people who actively dislike G4's attempt to make a pony world. On the other hoof, I am glad that FiM did what it did, and I doubt I'd be a fan if G4 hadn't tried to make a deeper world than what G5 (or G3) aimed for. 

 

[Misty Shadow 7,866]

1 hour ago, North Star said:

That's like saying that G1 and G4 unicorns just sparkle those horns and 'the magic' happens. Boast Busters explained the magic a bit like a mixture of superheroes, like X Men, with their abilities, and Harry Potter, with study. That was pretty cool. In the Return of Tambelon, they had a whole ep about unicorn magic :3 

 

This might be a taste thing. If you prefer ponies lore-light, then that is fine. As for how Hasbro wanted people to enjoy the ponies, all they wanted was people buying toys   Lore was on the back of all the toys, though, so I don't think that MLP is definitively lore-light.

Posey could have had a little episode about how her attitude to her garden has altered, maybe? The plant magic comes off as random

 

Hitch is shown mastering magic a bit, and he is shown to care for animals... so it kinda fits.

 

I agree - G5, like G3, is aiming for a simple, happy vibe. For a lot of people, that is more than enough, and that's fine. I hang around people who actively dislike G4's attempt to make a pony world. On the other hoof, I am glad that FiM did what it did, and I doubt I'd be a fan if G4 hadn't tried to make a deeper world than what G5 (or G3) aimed for. 

 

I think you're missing the point of what I was saying. Do you actually expect kids shows to explain to you in great detail how magically growing a plant works? Like...come on. 

The point is that none of this is meant to be complex. Boast Busters' explanation of magic was literally just saying how ordinary unicorns only have a little magic they can do that pertains to their special talents, which we know to be represented by their cutie marks, it says nothing about study. It actually disproves what you were saying earlier about how ponies can be like Twilight if they study hard enough, given that Twilight's special talent/cutie mark is linked to how she's the element of magic. And it's not "just a thing of taste". We're talking a series aimed at young kids here. Why would they not want the lore to be simple and only a minor part of the show? 

In any case, this is getting way off subject. This thread is not intended for debates about lore or calling out flaws with G5, it's about discussing bunk criticisms of the series.

Edited August 30 by Misty Shadow

[Octavian 5,421]

3 hours ago, Misty Shadow said:

Do you actually expect kids shows to explain to you in great detail how magically growing a plant works?

I don't expect it from much kiddie media, but one of the things that made G1 and G4 work was that they did explain unicorn magic a bit. I enjoy many aspects of G5, but that is a flaw IMO

 

3 hours ago, Misty Shadow said:

The point is that none of this is meant to be complex.

of course not  I'm not looking for the show to explain unicorn horns down to the bone structure, or in Harry Potter's case a run-down on different wand cores or something. Just a fun little explainer like both have as part of their stories. 

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 it says nothing about study.

Twi's solution being book-smart and Twi's character being book-smart (in contrast to Trixie) is front and center of that ep IMO. But if you think that ep is a decent ep in terms of explaining pony magic, then we're agreed. 

3 hours ago, Misty Shadow said:

We're talking a series aimed at young kids here. Why would they not want the lore to be simple and only a minor part of the show? 

Kids do enjoy a bit of explanation about the differences between the ponies, I think. I like G4 and G5 - I got my sister's kids into G4  but none of them like G5, and I can't get them to watch it. Not saying that's due to lacking eps like Boast Busters, but it might be a part of it. 

3 hours ago, Misty Shadow said:

it's about discussing bunk criticisms of the series.

oh, well okay then, but I think that the way earth pony magic is explained in the show being off is not a bunk criticism. The idea that earth pony strength contradicts earth pony plant magic is a bunk criticism, though. The whole reason earth pony strength was emphasised was to give the three breeds a special status, and just making earth ponies strong was a bit lame in terms of that goal, so I like that G5 has plant magic (although I wish it'd been done better). But I'll leave it here.

[Misty Shadow 7,866]

By far one of the most bemusing and strange bunk G5 criticisms I've heard is that MYM "forgot its setup with making Zipp the next queen of Zephyr Heights". Like...did we even watch the same show? Zipp's entire character arc revolves around her not wanting to be the next queen of Zephyr Heights.