Starlight Glimmer - How NOT to write a character

[J.J 923]

9 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

And so she did the next best thing. Finding willing subjects that were weak and had low self-esteem. Preying on their fears - and then when granted the possibility, she dangerously messed with the timeline for her own ideological desires. 

You don't know anything about the background of the ponies from Our Town, you are head canoning the worst possible scenario to demonize Starlight, I'm not going to justify her altering time, but she genuinely didn't believe she would end the world by ending one circle of friends, after all she knows nothing of their former triumphs, they were literal strangers that showed up and destroyed everything she built over the course of (x) amount of time....

So we're treating the ponies of Our Town like they are helpless and mindless... Noted... Maybe that's why they rushed to a pony that so "cruelly enslaved them" lol to help them host a celebration 

[J.J 923]

6 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

Removing their cutie marks, they likely didn't know that they were not going to be capable of magic without their cutie marks, were they? And they seemed very scared of Starlight, so perhaps they were willing...up to a point, and when they were powerless, they now were truly scared and couldn't flee.

Where would they go without their cutie marks? Starlight kept their cutie marks in a vault that they couldn't break on their own. 

What she did was cruel and unusual. There is no justifying it no matter how good of an intention she had. 

I'm not trying to justify it? I'm trying to explain it. So there's a way to justify ANYTHING that ANY of the other villains did? Starlight should be punished because she's inherently smarter but actually has the ability to feel remorse and not need to do so in the wake of mercy? Looked like they broke the vault "on their own" during their rebellion to me without any help from the mane 6, or did you forget that?

Blame Starlight for a lot, but NOT their lack of security, confidence or intelligence, they lacked that to begin with, that's the ONLY reason they would have chosen to give up something they know inherently makes them special for a random unicorn they don't know in the first place... And like I said, some may have even had great lives, and said, "this unicorn makes a lot of sense to me..." I'm going to hear her out..."  They are to blame for not asking questions, there is a good quote about this with a people not being mindful of their government being complicit to it's tyranny, there are many actually

[J.J 923]

2 minutes ago, Props ValRoa said:

@J.J

We are not discussing other villains here. We are discussing Starlight. I would gladly discuss other villains in other places, but this is about Starlight. The ponies were complacent and weak minded, yes, but in the end, they were abused by Starlight - who is responsible for organizing the whole idea. Starlight's cutie mark swapping and removal ability is one of the more dangerous things in the show. Sure, you may destroy the world, but Starlight? She had the capacity, and the intent to define what the world was, through how she sought out to be in charge of how society should run - which goes against the natural order of the world. Ponies aren't mean to be equal. They are meant to pursue their own individuality and their own types of magic. Starlight's ideology is the antithesis to what occurs in the nature of the world, and she had more than enough power to back it up.

The town was simply too small for her power. She needed to have a massive city or something dedicated to her ideology. She has the largest power level of any other character in the show with the exception of Discord, Twilight, and the Alicorns. 

Bad writing. 

I agree with the facts surrounding the statement but a lot of it is actually what make it good writing? Did we want another, "I'm so powerful, I want you to bend to my will" type of simplicity in another villain? I thought she had more philosophical edge to her than the literal god of chaos who continually proves to be one dimensional himself... But like you said "for another topic." 

She had a difference of perspective it was just held up by ",somewhat shallow back story" that you have to head Canon the details of her life between her being a filly and her being a full grown mare...look dude, she is my second favorite as a villain the show for many unique reasons, she's not a slouch, she had more capability in her premeditated resolve than ponies with literal chaos magic and alicorn magic and Tirek with all of it combined... Her intelligence being a weapon with her raw talent makes her a remarkable villain 

Good writing, people just don't like their favorite characters being dwarfed, watch Fairy Tail, it's just part of the universe, there's someone out there you don't know about that can do things you can't comprehend

[Ring Team 123]

On 2022-12-12 at 9:17 PM, abrony-mouse said:

Ok first off, that was an incredible post! 

However, the big difference between MLP and Steven Universe is that MLP is written by a collection of writers on a theme and NOT as a cohesive whole. Starlight, like all the ponies, is a character-beat and not a character. Starlight's character-beat is OP fragile anti-hero and I absolutely love the delivery of that but ofc half the time (and especially when she's not the focus) her character makes no sense. 

The worst thing about Starlight was her redemption, as you say. But can't you see some value in the villain portrayal and the reformed character portrayal as separate things? 

I can agree with a great deal of what you say though - MLP did manage to be pretty coherent, and much of what you say makes sense as a criticism. I certainly think she was a base-breaker. The thing is - Kelly Sheridan delivered, and the writers wrote great eps for her. She was one of the best things about S5 and S6 for me. The loss to coherence was more than made up with delivery in other areas.

I think that's the root of most problems Friendship is Magic had: They have a bunch of writers, but there's not one cohesive direction, which is a pity, because some episodes suggested that idea in a way you can't stop thinking about it.

The villain portrayal and reformed character portrayal cannot be separate because it's one single character, especially if there's gonna be a certain narrative ambition. The real deal here is how coherent this is in a character who's meant to evolve. For example, Moises from Prince of Egypt. At the beginning of the film he's like a spoiled kid with so many privileges. And over the movie he slowly changes, to a point where, after discovering who he really is and having a hard time dealing with it, he embraced his roots and became a better person.

Or how about Tony Stark? I'm not too familiar with Marvel, but one thing that the first Iron Man film did great was to show the cause and effect of Tony's actions, making him reflecting on himself and, at the end, he decided to build his own suit to destroy what he built.

If the respective writers of Iron Man and Prince of Egypt could do this to their respective main characters, I don't see why Josh Haber and other writers couldn't do the same thing to Starlight.

That doesn't mean all her episodes are bad. Out of all her chapters where she focuses on manipulating someone or everyone, I enjoyed three of them because they're not about that: The beginning of the end, The ending of the end and A Hearth’s Warming tail. These episodes don't portray Starlight as the usual selfish character, they show a character who legitimately wants to do the right thing by actions instead of intentions and these episodes are great. It's a pity that two of them happened right at the end, but hey, better later than never, right?

[Castle Bleck 19,356]

1 hour ago, Props ValRoa said:

Her villainy and cruelty as a villain, as well as her ideology of a whole was very interesting to me. She'll always be a well liked character of mine, but as someone who likes her character - I think her backstory was poorly written and did not serve her character well at all.

Same here. I mostly like her, except in The Cutie Re-Mark.

[Octavian 5,421]

1 hour ago, Ring Team said:

The villain portrayal and reformed character portrayal cannot be separate because it's one single character, especially if there's gonna be a certain narrative ambition.

they shouldn't be separate, because they're one character. But, honestly, did the kiddies notice that in G1 when the animated series rebooted the comics? In G3 the entire setting was up for grabs, never mind the characters.  

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The real deal here is how coherent this is in a character who's meant to evolve

That's what people want when they're engaging with your world and characters, yes.

 

1 hour ago, Ring Team said:

If the respective writers of Iron Man and Prince of Egypt could do this to their respective main characters, I don't see why Josh Haber and other writers couldn't do the same thing to Starlight.

Honestly, the team did a decent job, considering neither Iron Man or the Prince of Egypt were delivered using a format geared towards incoherent fun, like MLP was. I place the responsibility for that squarely on Lauren Faust. You can just tell that she cared about her story beyond what was reasonable :3 

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Out of all her chapters where she focuses on manipulating someone or everyone, I enjoyed three of them because they're not about that: The beginning of the end, The ending of the end and A Hearth’s Warming tail. 

Those are amazing eps that speak for themselves :3  Other than Hearth's Warming, they are not the most Starlighty of eps, but she fits in all of them.

 

2 hours ago, Props ValRoa said:

I think her backstory was poorly written and did not serve her character well at all.

it needed a hay of a lot more development!

[Octavian 5,421]

On 2022-12-11 at 5:55 PM, Ring Team said:

 

 

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It’s an insidious result for a character that is supposed to redeem herself. Not just for Starlight, but for Sunburst, maybe even more so for Sunburst. This is supposed to be the pony Starlight values most. So, if she ends up manipulating someone who’s supposed to be her best friend, it’s not because of any of that, it’s because she needs him as an excuse to make everything revolving around her, to feel better about herself and for selfish reasons.

What I mean by this is that in Friendship is Magic we got several episodes where Starlight refuses to consider other alternative options apart from magic without thinking that this might backfire. And nobody in the show questioned her, everyone is completely superstitious to her. Whenever Discord received suspicious looks from her friends, it’s because he was a villain in season 2, that makes sense. But the show doesn’t apply the same logic to Starlight.  Not only it sacrifices the artistic intent of the character that was established in the end of season 5, but it also severely devalues the artistic intent of the show in a degenerate way. The show Friendship is Magic is about learning the values of friendship. Trying to achieve that with a manipulative selfish questionable main character who doesn’t want to change does a disservice to the show.

It’s not that trying to give a plausible reason of why Starlight is like this is a bad idea. But you can’t give her story reasons and then do it half-assed. We’re never given a good reason why we should root for her, especially after what she has done in the show, which lead us to a very distasteful character in the end. Even with all this, the show tries so hard to make you feel sorry for her in ways that we’re not supposed to, which is one of the reasons why this character doesn’t work. The show feels lost in how it wants to view her because her actions conflict with her goal. And I think Friendship is Magic is too forgiving on her, to the point where even TV Tropes called her as “the most base breaking character in the show”.

 

Now, Starlight’s topic has been discussed to death in the fandom since 2015. And I’d be here all day if I try to take these arguments here. Go google her and you’ll read several arguments from both sides.

But all I’m gonna say is this: At the end of the day, I have a hard time believing that the Starlight we saw in All bottled up, Rock solid friendship, Uncommon bond and Road to friendship is the same unicorn that wanted to redeem herself at the end of Cutie re-mark. After finishing The last problem, I didn’t find her redemption arc pretty engaging, rewarding or even remotely satisfying. This isn’t something exclusive of Every little thing she does, it affected many of her episodes. There’s even a 2019 short where Starlight actively manipulates Twilight.

I’m not saying Starlight should never show any weaknesses or emotions, because that would be silly. A character without human flaws is a bad character. But the specific weaknesses she’s given here and their place in the show don’t sync up with the rest of the character.

That’s reason enough to complain, but, why do people still discuss about this issue with arguments from both sides when, as an industry, we get animated films and animated TV shows with bad scripts more often than not? Well, because people love MLP for the characters.

Often I read someone defending Starlight that “these are flaws. and while they are also essential parts of characters, flaws are not the entire character. There are weaknesses, strengths, flaws, personalities, morals, and more”. I have two problems with this argument.

1. Most of her choices weren’t little mistakes or flaws. There’s an episode called Road to friendship from season 8 where Starlight travels with Trixie. When they met in season 6, Trixie told her that this wagon is her home, her only home. What does Starlight do in Road to Friendship? She sells Trixie’s wagon, Trixie cries and then Starlight gets mad at her because of that, to the point where she accusses her of loving her wagon more than her.

 

Okay, that's not a charming little mistake, that is a dick move. And there are many times where she does stuff like that in the 4 last seasons, something where she's supposed to be responsible, but it's not like a funny little mistake or something clumsy gets in the way. She made a choice and they're usually very horrible choices. Keep in mind that actions define a character. It’s not “little flaws” that get in the way, it’s trying as hard as she can to have nothing to do with redemption, even if she got a chance at the end of season 5.

2. You are supposed to root for her. You’re supposed to want her to get better and, in the end, I didn’t want to, I thought she was horrible.

And that’s not to say that you shouldn’t ever write new characters for a popular show, but a new character badly written is far worse than not giving the show new characters.

I’m sure this comes as a surprise to practically nobody, but, it really does seem to be a product of mismanagement and deadlines.

 

A villain who wants to get better is an interesting idea for an animated TV show. But I do not think the current execution is anywhere near what it needs to be to be fun or to catch on. The show has an identity crisis with Starlight. Does it want her to be a character who wants to compromise with a main goal or does it want her to be a manipulative selfish villain like she was in the past? I have no idea why Josh Haber wanted to go to that direction when other approaches could have been more compelling, especially after Luna Eclipsed, Crusaders of the Lost Mark and the movie from 2017.

So, final lessons for bringing narrative to a long standing series. Just because you want to add narrative to the series doesn’t mean you have to shoehorn a new character that has to earn her place. And keep in mind everything you’ve established about the show in the past, even little details.

Just because she apologized once doesn’t stop her from making the same mistake again.

For everyone, I hope this helps as a reminded to stay aware and vigilant. Friendship is Magic has tons of great details that makes us appreciate something about ourselves. But every idealistic series like this one carries the potential for misuse. It happened to Friendship is Magic and it happened to Overwatch. And it’s on us, as a community, to do what we can to stop that misuse.

Take care

 

 

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Josh Haber

Yep, definitely not my fave writer. Secrets and Pies and Last Laugh...

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Let’s start by talking about her most noticeable character feature: Her power. Starlight Glimmer is by far the most powerful character in the show. In the two parts of Cutie Map, Starlight has proven to control many ponies at the same time and, with concerning ease, she can take away the cutie marks, as it’s nothing, completely rewriting the established rules and lore about cutie marks. If that power came from a dark amulet like in Magic Duel from season 3, the story would be fine, but the problem is that Starlight can do that, on her own, and that’s a problem. It severely invalidates the personal aspect and the point of having a cutie mark the way it was established in season 1. When you have a talent, you perfected it and you make a living with your own talent and effort, that doesn’t matter anyway because Starlight is gonna take that away from you whenever she wants and however she wants. And I think it shouldn’t have been this way. It’s like painting the face of God. Better yet, it’s like playing God. You shouldn’t give that amount of power to one single character.

This is a broader problem with the show, and most fantasy stories which prioritize story over lore. Harry Potter is ridiculous for this. Starlight's power level is not the worst example of dud lore in the show - not by a long way. Secret of My Excess is a good example of sacrificing lore for a fun story point. The question is, do her powers make for fun stories or not? And the answer to that is - well yup in many cases. A Royal Problem is a great use of her power. Mind controlling the Mane 6 like that in Every Little Thing She Does was also pretty fun in the ep itself. For that matter, her inexplicable power to remove cutie marks was insanely enjoyable when she was a villain. The points you raise are hypothetical problems which a fanfic writer might have to deal with, but which in all probability you just ignore or work around in order to have a fun story. I'm writing a fic in which one of the ponies is a telepathic unicorn. I hadn't realise just how insanely useful that power could be. But I'm just not going to have her do the logical thing and use that power all the time in order to allow for fun story points to happen. Ofc that does diminish the realism a bit, but it's a balance - super OP powerful unicorns are fun and realism is also fun.

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It also didn’t make sense that, for someone who’s supposed to become an integral part of the show, she only got 2 episodes out of 26 in the fifth season. When “Make New Friends but Keep Discord” came out and it ended with the main characters in a party, I was one of the few people who asked “shouldn’t they be chasing Starlight? She might cause more problems”. Keep in mind that the first episode ended with Starlight running away, which presented a perfect excuse for Twilight and her friends to go after her. It’s not an impossible idea. Back then, a couple of people answered me (in a very condescending sassy way, I must add) that “we can have other types of episodes, they can make later another episode of Starlight, this is a slice of life TV show”. And I’d agree if it wasn’t for the fact that we never got an episode about Starlight until the very end.

And, even if she came back in the end, her reasons why she’s evil are shockingly irrational, let alone for a character who’s supposed to be important. It turns out that the main reason why Starlight was manipulating, brainwashing many towns and many innocent ponies and swapping and extracting cutie marks like she was God… was because her best friend moved away when she was a kid

Ah, yes, the redemption arc. So, first off, as a villain she was built up just fine. Very mysterious and creepy and with a villain motive that seemed to make sense - differences = arguments so equality is good. Her running away into the caves was a bit silly as a reason not to pursue, but just about swallowable and clearly if she was a recurrent villain she needed to escape. Her redemption was ofc rushed. Stygian/Pony of Shadows and NMM were also rushed. The thing is - the sudden appearance of Starlight was sinister and epic - that would have been diminished if we'd had more stories about her, and what could the stories have said? They wouldn't have fitted with the format of the show very well as it was more dealing with the massive implications of s4 and the completion of Twi's first arc. They couldn't drop in on Starlight villaining like they did in S9 with Grogar/Discord. The final ep too was not about her redemption but about struggling against the villain and defeating her - the redemption has to be tacked on if it's going to be included in the ep. None of that justifies the rush-job, but still you can't always get the space you need as a writer to develop certain points. As for the reason rather than its execution in the ep, as a few people have said, it is actually one of the better villainy reasons, as befits a 'pony gone wrong' story (rather than intrinsic evil like Discord). Starlight was hurt because she lost her bestie who was more talented (in one respect) than her and was unable to deal with that humiliation. To protect herself from future hurt she used her considerable talents to force friendships and constructed a justification for that which corresponds with her warped view of friendship. It's a pretty common thing immature people (kids) do when they are hurt by their friends and can lead to an unbalanced personality in maturity.

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3. The stakes were so nebulous that it’s hard to be engaged with Cutie remark, especially if you know how it ends.

The spell itself is pretty silly, yes. Most timey wimey shenanigans lose my interest. On the other hoof, it did provide a fun platform for fan-fic worlds - Crystal dystopia, Changeling dystopia and Night dystopia were pretty awesome. Also foal Dashie eating popcorn and enjoying the fireworks show was fun.

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5. Twilight has no reason to empathize with Starlight.

No properly given reason in the ep, I agree. But if there is one pony who would understand the importance of placing ponies over rationalisations it is Twi. As for empathising with the hurt feelings of friends you have left behind, Twi does that in the amazing Amending Fences where she literally plays the role of a sort of appeasing Sunburst to Moondancer.

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6. Her being a new main character doesn’t add much to the show. She’s a solution to a non-existing problem.

What the hay!? There's a huge problem. The Mane 6 had completed their arcs. Without a new character to develop the show has lost one of its best features - following the characters as they pursue their hopes and dreams. Having Twi play mentor to Starlight is story-writing 101.

The CMCs parodied this in one ep which is one of the meta-est lines in the show, which happens in S6 when Twi is doing this exact thing to Starlight:

Bulk Biceps: Oh, right. Uh, well, my cutie mark is a dumbbell, but I've lifted every dumbbell in Ponyville!

Scootaloo: [nervously] Have you tried lifting other things?

Bulk Biceps: You mean, not dumbbells?

Sweetie Belle: Yeah!

Apple Bloom: Yeah!

Bulk Biceps: Yeah!

Bulk Biceps: Oof! I mean... no. I hadn't thought of that. You guys are awesome!

[crunch]

Bulk Biceps: But... what happens when I run out of other stuff?

Sweetie Belle: ...I guess you could teach other ponies to lift things?

Anyway you allow the familiar character with the completed arc stay in the narrative for the fans while allowing a new character to follow in her hoof-steps.

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The most logical guess I can make is that it could have been just a scheduling and pipeline problem.

Yup, practical stuff like this will have contributed to the rush-job.

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Now let’s talk about her approach since season 6. While her re-introduction wasn’t bad, it was very boring and uninspiring after 5 minutes, because we got a Starlight being socially awkward while she’s learning about friendship, like Twilight in the early seasons, which doesn’t make sense because she managed to convince the filly Rainbow Dash to not trust Twilight back in Cutie Re-mark.

Again, while the execution was definitely poor, the reason Starlight did what she did (ie the hurt) and the methods she used to address them (the rationalisations) would leave her with inferior social skills - when it comes to genuine friendships, Starlight remains the poor lost lil foal that lost her bestie. Her social awkwardness makes sense in light of that. The relapse in Every Little Thing also makes sense in light of that (and the execution there was much better in general and that ep is also just fun). I also disagree that it makes the Mane 6 powerless - Starlight is explicitly meant to be comparably powerful as Twilight and the show has built up Twi's power level over many eps to establish that the Mane 5 are defenceless against a unicorn with that much power (she's the Princess afterall), but ofc the magic of friendship is most powerful of all and, as Twi's besties, they are essential parts of that.

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Even if she does horrible things many times, there are literally no consequences of her actions.

I do agree that there should be more suspicion. However, there is a HUGE difference between her and Discord. The latter is portrayed as intrinsically evil (although yes, he can be kinda changed), while the former is a PONY and therefore intrinsically good (yes, I know the show goes a bit more liberal on this and has an intrinsically evil pony in Cosey, but the overwhelming portrayal of ponies is that they are good beings). 

Ok will need to leave this there for now, but this is fun :3 haven't done a deep dive on pony stuff for a while.

[Ring Team 123]

On 2022-12-13 at 8:21 PM, Props ValRoa said:

It's clear to me Starlight knew what she was doing to those ponies. It was psychotic and cruel. 

That's what makes her scary. If she started a huge cult just because her friend move away, imagine what she could have done if she lost a plushie or a pencil.

Besides, if she really cares about Sunburst, why didn't she write some letters for him instead? Why couldn't she just ask him what his new place is so she can visit him and send him letters so she can have fun communicating with him? But no, he moved away and that's where we draw the line.

And, even if she says she cares about him, that doesn't seem to be the case with Uncommon Bond. ¿Is she happy that Sunburst makes new friends? No. She treats it like a personal attack and manipulates her best friend just so he can stay with her. That is insidious. So, if she does all this questionable stuff to her best friend, it's not because she's her best friend, it's because she loves being self centered.

Writing selfish characters isn't a bad idea, but this doesn't fit with the fact that Sarlight considers Sunburst her best friend. A best friend is someone you absolutely respect and admire, not someone you want to trick.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Ring Team

[Ring Team 123]

Normally I don't post on a one year thread, but yesterday I've discovered this video. I haven’t watched it at the time because back then I wasn’t paying attention to the show. I was watching better shows, but I fully agree on this.

If you have a character that says “I have good intentions” before brainwashing Twilight’s friends, some random Ponyville ponies and manipulated who’s supposed to be her best friend out of spite, then your thoughts and words are proven to be lies.

Intentions mean nothing when your actions are consistently negative.

[Megas 27,625]

On 2023-07-03 at 1:06 AM, Ring Team said:

Normally I don't post on a one year thread, but yesterday I've discovered this video. I haven’t watched it at the time because back then I wasn’t paying attention to the show. I was watching better shows, but I fully agree on this.

If you have a character that says “I have good intentions” before brainwashing Twilight’s friends, some random Ponyville ponies and manipulated who’s supposed to be her best friend out of spite, then your thoughts and words are proven to be lies.

Intentions mean nothing when your actions are consistently negative.

Lily Peet is literally the last who should get to have a say on morality. And using one of the most vindictive, manipulative and abusive people in the fandom to boost your argument isn’t doing it any favors 

[GodlyWolf Gusty 2,147]

Simple and to the point. No Mary sues or Gary stues. Don't be afraid to give them flaws.

 

No I didn't take the time to read because DEAR LORD!!!

[Ring Team 123]

10 hours ago, GodlyWolf82 said:

Simple and to the point. No Mary sues or Gary stues. Don't be afraid to give them flaws.

No I didn't take the time to read because DEAR LORD!!!

While I do appreciate that you comment, I don't think the conclusion should be summarized in just three words, "no mary sues". I think it would devolve into the "too much water" expression from IGN (which was a silly way to phrase a good solid criticsm of the Pokemon Ruby/Saphire game, which was that there are too many water towns and water type pokemons and you can easily counter them with electric type pokemons, I had to explain it because not many people know this, myself included before I checked the origins of that meme).

I think the problems are obvious:

1. Starlight's actions and lack of consequences conflict with the show's focus on the value of friendship.

2. Her refusal to change leads to a main character who's not a good role model for kids in a TV show aimed at children.

3. Her actions invalidate her redemption arc and the ending of Cutie Re-mark, where we saw Starlight willing to change for the better.

4. She does not prop up novelty or new directions for the show. Friendship is Magic already presented many secondary characters and many themes many times.

5. Enables bad habits like gatekeeping, namecalling and inciting controversy, ironically enough in a show about love and tolerance.

6. She further divided the fanbase, restricting the groth of the show.

[Misty Shadow 7,867]

On 2023-07-04 at 8:23 AM, Megas said:

Lily Peet is literally the last who should get to have a say on morality. And using one of the most vindictive, manipulative and abusive people in the fandom to boost your argument isn’t doing it any favors 

Lily Peet also wrote...foalcon.  And instead of genuinely apologizing for it, she's tried to cover it up with weaseling while also trying to grandstand as some kind of warrior fighting against child predators. NEVER. USE. LILY PEET. TO BACK UP YOUR ARGUMENTS. 

[GodlyWolf Gusty 2,147]

13 hours ago, Ring Team said:

While I do appreciate that you comment, I don't think the conclusion should be summarized in just three words, "no mary sues". I think it would devolve into the "too much water" expression from IGN (which was a silly way to phrase a good solid criticsm of the Pokemon Ruby/Saphire game, which was that there are too many water towns and water type pokemons and you can easily counter them with electric type pokemons, I had to explain it because not many people know this, myself included before I checked the origins of that meme).

I think the problems are obvious:

1. Starlight's actions and lack of consequences conflict with the show's focus on the value of friendship.

2. Her refusal to change leads to a main character who's not a good role model for kids in a TV show aimed at children.

3. Her actions invalidate her redemption arc and the ending of Cutie Re-mark, where we saw Starlight willing to change for the better.

4. She does not prop up novelty or new directions for the show. Friendship is Magic already presented many secondary characters and many themes many times.

5. Enables bad habits like gatekeeping, namecalling and inciting controversy, ironically enough in a show about love and tolerance.

6. She further divided the fanbase, restricting the groth of the show.

I do apologize lol. I was tired when I wrote that. I overlooked the part where it said starlight glimmer and I defaulted to fanfic oc characters. That was my bad honesty.

[Ring Team 123]

9 hours ago, GodlyWolf82 said:

I do apologize lol. I was tired when I wrote that. I overlooked the part where it said starlight glimmer and I defaulted to fanfic oc characters. That was my bad honesty.

It's okay, don't think about that. But keep in mind that saying "Mary Sue" and call it a day is not a good way to make a solid argument. You have to build your argument with honest statements and facts and illustrate it with clear examples.

For future reference: Don't fall into the trap of calling something "Mary Sue", "agenda" and/or "Woke" to make an argument. If you're saying these words, they could hurt your opinion, they could make you sound like a parrot who repeats non-contextual phrases just because a vocal minority happened to do the same thing.

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

On 2023-09-02 at 5:48 PM, Ring Team said:

While I do appreciate that you comment, I don't think the conclusion should be summarized in just three words, "no mary sues". I think it would devolve into the "too much water" expression from IGN (which was a silly way to phrase a good solid criticsm of the Pokemon Ruby/Saphire game, which was that there are too many water towns and water type pokemons and you can easily counter them with electric type pokemons, I had to explain it because not many people know this, myself included before I checked the origins of that meme).

I think the problems are obvious:

1. Starlight's actions and lack of consequences conflict with the show's focus on the value of friendship.

2. Her refusal to change leads to a main character who's not a good role model for kids in a TV show aimed at children.

3. Her actions invalidate her redemption arc and the ending of Cutie Re-mark, where we saw Starlight willing to change for the better.

4. She does not prop up novelty or new directions for the show. Friendship is Magic already presented many secondary characters and many themes many times.

5. Enables bad habits like gatekeeping, namecalling and inciting controversy, ironically enough in a show about love and tolerance.

6. She further divided the fanbase, restricting the groth of the show.

1. I think the reason for that is starlight was not defeated and it was more of a truce. I mean if i was twilight i wouldnt make an enemy out of Starlight. So in exchange, Id give her special treatment.

2......?

3.....?

4. Well starlight is weirdly enough.... not a secondary character? And also not a main character.... weird.

5. ...yeah I actually like starlight for that.

6.the fanbase was a mess to begin with.

Might i add that it was the fanbase was the reason why FIM ended.

 

[Misty Shadow 7,867]

22 hours ago, StrawberryMilk Simp said:

Might i add that it was the fanbase was the reason why FIM ended.

Although I completely understand having issues with the fandom, they are not the reason why FiM ended. Jim Miller could not affirm why the show ended as Hasbro wasn't obligated to give the staff a reason. His theory on why it ended is something he discussed in an interview, believing it's because Hasbro saw a downward trend in G4 interest, supported by official Hasbro documents commenting on the decline of MLP's sales during the time of its end. 

[Ring Team 123]

On 2023-09-04 at 2:29 PM, StrawberryMilk Simp said:

1. I think the reason for that is starlight was not defeated and it was more of a truce. I mean if i was twilight i wouldnt make an enemy out of Starlight. So in exchange, Id give her special treatment.

2......?

3.....?

4. Well starlight is weirdly enough.... not a secondary character? And also not a main character.... weird.

5. ...yeah I actually like starlight for that.

6.the fanbase was a mess to begin with.

Might i add that it was the fanbase was the reason why FIM ended.

I've heard this reason a lot, that Starlight is just too powerful to be stopped. But by that logic, films like Infinity War or Endgame (stories where a clear antagonist is presented) should end with Iron Man offering Thanos friendship. And I don't think it's a reasonable idea. On top of that, do you really want to teach little kids to offer friendship to the pettiest people they've met? I can't imagine, say, a victim of bullying saying "maybe I'll try to make him a friend of mine who's been harrassing me for 2 years". It's not a good idea, especially when the rest of the villains in Friendship is Magic don't get the same treatment (I'm not saying they deserve a chance in the show, I'm saying this was an exceptional privilege only offered to Starlight and no one else).

I think most, if not all, the features that Starlight had were symptoms of bigger problems that affected the show and some of their characters, such as the flanderization and the status-quo. For a TV show that was in the air for 9 years, most of the characters go back to square one, forcing the writers to find alternatives to tell stories instead of, you know, presenting continuity to tell refreshing stories like Steven Universe or The Owl House did. In the case of Starlight, her character features lead her to harm other characters in drastic ways, like in Every little thing she does, Road to friendship and Uncommon Bond, things that a normal person wouldn't see as a good thing.

In addition to that, by the time the season 5 was in the air, the team was working not only in the Equestria Girls movies, but also in the shorts. And some years later they started to work on a EG show. And with over so many projects at the same time like Friendship is Magic, the EG movies (which they released one every year from 2013 to 2016), the EG shorts and the EG TV show, most writers were forced to make questionable decisions. And before someone says it, I'm not saying that "Equestria Girls is the one to blame", I'm saying that the writers and the animation team had literally so many projects in hand.

Edited September 7, 2023 by Ring Team

[Evil Pink One 13,506]

6 hours ago, Ring Team said:

top of that, do you really want to teach little kids to offer friendship to the pettiest people they've met? I can't imagine, say, a victim of bullying saying "maybe I'll try to make him a friend of mine who's been harrassing me for 2 years". It's not a good idea, especially when the rest of the villains in Friendship is Magic don't get the same treatment (I'm not saying they deserve a chance in the show, I'm saying this was an exceptional privilege only offered to Starlight and no one else).

Actually.... yes... to prepare them for the future.. especially if you are weak. You find ways to defeat them. Like what twilight did.offer friendship or truce. Because when she tried to fight her... it was a tie and a never ending cycle.

Maybe that was the moral of the story.

Plus using Thanatos as your example is just... so out there... which i actually like.

Would you like to join my troll army?

Sorry thanos not thanatos.

6 hours ago, Ring Team said:

not saying they deserve a chance in the show, I'm saying this was an exceptional privilege only offered to Starlight and no one else

Discord.... trixie....nightmare moon. Who else....flim and flam... those two should've gotten a death penalty.

And if you say that then its justifiable that cozy glow was sent to hell....

Maybe thats the message they wanted to show us about cozy glow.

If you think that starlight doesnt deserve to be redempted... then lets put x

Cozy glow into hell! Hahahaha

6 hours ago, Ring Team said:

the case of Starlight, her character features lead her to harm other characters in drastic ways, like in Every little thing she does, Road to friendship and Uncommon Bond, things that a normal person wouldn't see as a good thing.

Like pinky pie, rainbowdash, and twilight?

6 hours ago, Ring Team said:

addition to that, by the time the season 5 was in the air, the team was working not only in the Equestria Girls movies, but also in the shorts. And some years later they started to work on a EG show. And with over so many projects at the same time like Friendship is Magic, the EG movies (which they released one every year from 2013 to 2016), the EG shorts and the EG TV show, most writers were forced to make questionable decisions. And before someone says it, I'm not saying that "Equestria Girls is the one to blame", I'm saying that the writers and the animation team had literally so many projects in hand

You know i watched the whole season of mlp without the communities tampering and i loved it.

Now that I've met the community and heard their strife and wows. Im starting to not enjoy some of the episodes.

Hence fandom ruins the show.

I also enjoyed she ra and voltron.... then the community kinda have to ruin it.