Fandom Views and Feelings About Celestia

[Lord Grey 13]

How does the fandom view Celestia and feel about her now vs. years ago? What changed? What are the most prominent views now? What do you think are the worst takes on Celestia? Also, what is your general headcanon regarding the apparent godhood of Celestia (and by extension, Luna)?

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

I didn't watch most of season 9. What I remember of it is that Celestia is going to retire and is going to shrivel and die in a retirement home. So, take what I'm going to say with a grain of salt and understand that I hate what 'they' did to her, not the character.

I feel as though the fandom's perception of Celestia hasn't changed much. To me, it seems to be more memes than an honest reading of the the character and what the showrunners wanted to do with her. My biggest issue with Celestia is that the setting move on and she remained the same. Absolutely, the writers fleshed out better her personality but they ended up making her a quirky and mostly empty quest-giver that just lost her purpose to the map and then was left with a couple of functions that amounted to very little. And the fandom didn't take well to this.

 

The Godlestia

I think that as per season one of the cartoon, calling Celestia a god was justifiable. Both she and Luna. Not only because they occupied a position of power and because they literally commanded celestial bodies, which has been the province of godly powers for the vast majority of human mythologies, but also because they seemed to sit in a place where they were distant from the other creatures. And this is one place where people misinterpret what I'm trying to say. Here's an analogy. I think it's fair to say that the most powerful person on our planet is whoever is the president of the United States. But, really, this analogy works for any other powerful person through the History of mankind. From the Caesars to any random Dark Ages feudal lords. Although, personally, I think that the best analogy is a Pharaoh, even if there isn't a single real person that would actually fit. You can see presidents taking vacations and resting, even during working seasons, because ruling a nation is a full-time job, but it does not consume their existence. 

You can be a god and do stupid things, and you can rule a nation and have time for yourself.

The fandom has this infuriating tendency of equating Celestia being generally dumb and being seen not doing her job with her being 'down to earth'. First of all, any one that has even slightly touched any story about the Olympian or the Asgardian gods (the real myths, please...) knows that gods have a tendency of being absolute idiots from time to time. Like, actual people. Second, Celestia's mistakes, weaknesses, victories and strengths always serve the plot. The problem: the plot of the specific episode, and not even toward character growth.

So, my problem isn't with Celestia being an idiot, or failing in general. Being incapable of something. My problem is that this is all she does. Going back to what I said earlier, my problem is that the cartoon never had a unified idea of what she was supposed to be, and forgot about her as the worldbuilding moved on. And that is why alicorn lore is a patchwork of different cloths trying to cover the holes. What is it that Celestia actually does?

 

The God-Emperor of Equestria... Eh... Nyeh, hum... Ah... Kinda Protects? Or The Lunarian Heresy

She kinda rules the nation, and she kinda moves the sun around. Except Equestria pretty much takes care of itself, things happen without even her indirect intervention, there are institutions she cannot overrule, even when they are doing something outright villainous, and nobody really cares what she thinks. Except if the episode is about ponies carrying about her. And never mind about the sun because its either working on its own, external factors can mess with it without her even being mentioned and it may not even be strictly necessary. What is the point of Celestia existing? Again, the cartoon moved on and forgot about her. And the fandom was happy, because people had decided that Godlestia was bad and she needed to be less. Of something. I don't really understand.

Think of Luna for a while. She was peeved ponies were sleeping through the night and missing on her wondrous creation. One: FFS, if this isn't some god-tier, mythology-worthy shit, I don't know what is. Two: Luna moved on. They gave her something. First, she couldn't fit in. Then she gained her powers of protecting poneis from the nightmares. Holy. This is amazing. Even if people can complain that it makes no sense, under the light of what turned her into Nightmare Moon. But people didn't care, because they did something with Luna! They kept her afloat and made her even better every time she was on the screen. Luna's magic is capable of creating a monster of nightmares because she of her sorrow and insecurities. A monster that is almost ready to escape the confines of the mind and take form in the real world. Holy shit, someone get the shovel. Lovecraft has risen from his grave and is writing children's cartoons.

And the fandom loved it. There is a reason most of the fandom drools over Luna. There is also a reason people have so many wildly varying interpretations of Celestia while Luna's are mostly consolidated into her canon character.

I don't want to repeat myself, but compare that to Celestia and see how everything about her is surface-level, bland. Celestia's enemies always come back and they often had the upper hand. Celestia doesn't have a handle on any situation and her input is barely necessary, often for no more than exposition.

 

How to Fix Celestia

Kill her. At the beginning of the cartoon, and completely remove her from the story. Then her 1000 years of peaceful rule have an impact. Show her power and her importance through her absence. Things used to be much better, now they are a shred of the greatness that was the Age of The Sun. Have grand monuments to the wonder that was the Princess of the Sun and all the great things she did for Equestria. Or, just keep doing what season one was doing. "Oh, my god! There is a giant black cloud!" Here is a letter... "Twilight, there is a dragon. Deal with it." And do not do what the following seasons did. Diminishing a part of her that never even existed in the cartoon. Turning her into an incompetent buffoon. The 'not-Luna' that moves the sun, when the plot allows it, when there isn't some villain that needs to steal the stage. Don't have other characters of her rank, with the very same title that she has, not ruling, since she was supposed to be the ruler. And for f***'s sake, don't let other characters steal her thunder. And absolutely do not tease with a powerful evil version of her just because it worked with Luna.

 

Why I Want Daybreaker to Die in a Flood and I Blame the Fandom

Daybreaker was one of the things that I hated the most about G4. She serves absolutely no purpose, in the cartoon, other than portray Starlight Glimmer's fears. Yet, the fandom clinged to her like she was the real Celestia hiding behind the purple dovey eyes all along. Of course... People wanted the cartoon to do something with her. Now you can't see a fanfic of Celestia being remotely powerful without Daybreaker's ugly mug showing in between the lines or in the comments. And the funny thing is that if people like Luna, then Daybreaker is a vile thing. If they like Celestia, then they treat Daybreaker the same way Luna's fans treat Nightmare Moon: a liberative force that makes her better. And that is missing the point of the tragedy that was Luna as a sister and Nightmare Moon as a vindictive and petty monster. 

The thing is that I like the idea of Daybreaker as Celestia's Nightmare Moon. If Celestia had a decent backstory like Luna's. I don't even know what Celestia's motivations are. I don't understand what is her place in the cartoon, even before Season 9. She kind of gravitated between a personality, celebrity politician and a spiritual leader. Sometimes she's a teacher. Other times she's a queen that was never prepared for her position. I miss Celestia from season 1. The point is that Daybreaker has no solid ground of characterization within Celestia to stand on. She can't hold a candle to Nightmare Moon. But the fandom didn't care. It's funny. You can even find stories where Daybreaker takes over after Celestia fails, saves the day, and things move on.

The cartoon has given the fandom such a desire to see Celestia failing when she never really succeeded at anything and I think it comes from those complaints of 'godlestia' during the early seasons. Because people misunderstood what Celestia was, especially when her defining characteristic was that she had banished poor little Luna to the Moon. It was so strong that even on later seasons, years later, Luna and Celestia still seem to hate each other rather than conciliate, which was what they wanted when they first reunited.

I'm tired. I won't go into the whole sibling rivalry and how the cartoon messed it up with the two while getting it right with Twilight and Shining Armor. And how the fandom turned it into a nightmarish wasteland of character growth.

[Lord Grey 13]

11 hours ago, Metemponychosis said:

I didn't watch most of season 9. What I remember of it is that Celestia is going to retire and is going to shrivel and die in a retirement home. So, take what I'm going to say with a grain of salt and understand that I hate what 'they' did to her, not the character.

I feel as though the fandom's perception of Celestia hasn't changed much. To me, it seems to be more memes than an honest reading of the the character and what the showrunners wanted to do with her. My biggest issue with Celestia is that the setting move on and she remained the same. Absolutely, the writers fleshed out better her personality but they ended up making her a quirky and mostly empty quest-giver that just lost her purpose to the map and then was left with a couple of functions that amounted to very little. And the fandom didn't take well to this.

 

The Godlestia

I think that as per season one of the cartoon, calling Celestia a god was justifiable. Both she and Luna. Not only because they occupied a position of power and because they literally commanded celestial bodies, which has been the province of godly powers for the vast majority of human mythologies, but also because they seemed to sit in a place where they were distant from the other creatures. And this is one place where people misinterpret what I'm trying to say. Here's an analogy. I think it's fair to say that the most powerful person on our planet is whoever is the president of the United States. But, really, this analogy works for any other powerful person through the History of mankind. From the Caesars to any random Dark Ages feudal lords. Although, personally, I think that the best analogy is a Pharaoh, even if there isn't a single real person that would actually fit. You can see presidents taking vacations and resting, even during working seasons, because ruling a nation is a full-time job, but it does not consume their existence. 

You can be a god and do stupid things, and you can rule a nation and have time for yourself.

The fandom has this infuriating tendency of equating Celestia being generally dumb and being seen not doing her job with her being 'down to earth'. First of all, any one that has even slightly touched any story about the Olympian or the Asgardian gods (the real myths, please...) knows that gods have a tendency of being absolute idiots from time to time. Like, actual people. Second, Celestia's mistakes, weaknesses, victories and strengths always serve the plot. The problem: the plot of the specific episode, and not even toward character growth.

So, my problem isn't with Celestia being an idiot, or failing in general. Being incapable of something. My problem is that this is all she does. Going back to what I said earlier, my problem is that the cartoon never had a unified idea of what she was supposed to be, and forgot about her as the worldbuilding moved on. And that is why alicorn lore is a patchwork of different cloths trying to cover the holes. What is it that Celestia actually does?

 

The God-Emperor of Equestria... Eh... Nyeh, hum... Ah... Kinda Protects? Or The Lunarian Heresy

She kinda rules the nation, and she kinda moves the sun around. Except Equestria pretty much takes care of itself, things happen without even her indirect intervention, there are institutions she cannot overrule, even when they are doing something outright villainous, and nobody really cares what she thinks. Except if the episode is about ponies carrying about her. And never mind about the sun because its either working on its own, external factors can mess with it without her even being mentioned and it may not even be strictly necessary. What is the point of Celestia existing? Again, the cartoon moved on and forgot about her. And the fandom was happy, because people had decided that Godlestia was bad and she needed to be less. Of something. I don't really understand.

Think of Luna for a while. She was peeved ponies were sleeping through the night and missing on her wondrous creation. One: FFS, if this isn't some god-tier, mythology-worthy shit, I don't know what is. Two: Luna moved on. They gave her something. First, she couldn't fit in. Then she gained her powers of protecting poneis from the nightmares. Holy. This is amazing. Even if people can complain that it makes no sense, under the light of what turned her into Nightmare Moon. But people didn't care, because they did something with Luna! They kept her afloat and made her even better every time she was on the screen. Luna's magic is capable of creating a monster of nightmares because she of her sorrow and insecurities. A monster that is almost ready to escape the confines of the mind and take form in the real world. Holy shit, someone get the shovel. Lovecraft has risen from his grave and is writing children's cartoons.

And the fandom loved it. There is a reason most of the fandom drools over Luna. There is also a reason people have so many wildly varying interpretations of Celestia while Luna's are mostly consolidated into her canon character.

I don't want to repeat myself, but compare that to Celestia and see how everything about her is surface-level, bland. Celestia's enemies always come back and they often had the upper hand. Celestia doesn't have a handle on any situation and her input is barely necessary, often for no more than exposition.

 

How to Fix Celestia

Kill her. At the beginning of the cartoon, and completely remove her from the story. Then her 1000 years of peaceful rule have an impact. Show her power and her importance through her absence. Things used to be much better, now they are a shred of the greatness that was the Age of The Sun. Have grand monuments to the wonder that was the Princess of the Sun and all the great things she did for Equestria. Or, just keep doing what season one was doing. "Oh, my god! There is a giant black cloud!" Here is a letter... "Twilight, there is a dragon. Deal with it." And do not do what the following seasons did. Diminishing a part of her that never even existed in the cartoon. Turning her into an incompetent buffoon. The 'not-Luna' that moves the sun, when the plot allows it, when there isn't some villain that needs to steal the stage. Don't have other characters of her rank, with the very same title that she has, not ruling, since she was supposed to be the ruler. And for f***'s sake, don't let other characters steal her thunder. And absolutely do not tease with a powerful evil version of her just because it worked with Luna.

 

Why I Want Daybreaker to Die in a Flood and I Blame the Fandom

Daybreaker was one of the things that I hated the most about G4. She serves absolutely no purpose, in the cartoon, other than portray Starlight Glimmer's fears. Yet, the fandom clinged to her like she was the real Celestia hiding behind the purple dovey eyes all along. Of course... People wanted the cartoon to do something with her. Now you can't see a fanfic of Celestia being remotely powerful without Daybreaker's ugly mug showing in between the lines or in the comments. And the funny thing is that if people like Luna, then Daybreaker is a vile thing. If they like Celestia, then they treat Daybreaker the same way Luna's fans treat Nightmare Moon: a liberative force that makes her better. And that is missing the point of the tragedy that was Luna as a sister and Nightmare Moon as a vindictive and petty monster. 

The thing is that I like the idea of Daybreaker as Celestia's Nightmare Moon. If Celestia had a decent backstory like Luna's. I don't even know what Celestia's motivations are. I don't understand what is her place in the cartoon, even before Season 9. She kind of gravitated between a personality, celebrity politician and a spiritual leader. Sometimes she's a teacher. Other times she's a queen that was never prepared for her position. I miss Celestia from season 1. The point is that Daybreaker has no solid ground of characterization within Celestia to stand on. She can't hold a candle to Nightmare Moon. But the fandom didn't care. It's funny. You can even find stories where Daybreaker takes over after Celestia fails, saves the day, and things move on.

The cartoon has given the fandom such a desire to see Celestia failing when she never really succeeded at anything and I think it comes from those complaints of 'godlestia' during the early seasons. Because people misunderstood what Celestia was, especially when her defining characteristic was that she had banished poor little Luna to the Moon. It was so strong that even on later seasons, years later, Luna and Celestia still seem to hate each other rather than conciliate, which was what they wanted when they first reunited.

I'm tired. I won't go into the whole sibling rivalry and how the cartoon messed it up with the two while getting it right with Twilight and Shining Armor. And how the fandom turned it into a nightmarish wasteland of character growth.

Woah. You weren't kidding when you said you had some things to say.

I guess I'll start by saying that I agree. I've seen others talk similarly about Celestia and how she was practically neglected for much of the show as well as getting the short end of the stick in terms of characterization, and your post pretty much confirms that.

The show writers bungled Celestia, and I think the fandom just rolled with it. I also get the feeling that Luna is more universally agreed by the fandom to be cool while Celestia is just... all over the place, I guess. Luna's got a solid and dedicated fanbase because her character has a bunch of things going for it. Celestia meanwhile can only offer a few bits of character with a side of vague implications for her fanbase to latch on to.

On the topic of Daybreaker, I can see how she only exacerbated the problem of the fandom's skewed views about Celestia. It's a symptom of the lack of characterization for Celestia. I do also think that Daybreaker would have been very cool if we had something from Celestia to base Daybreaker's character on.

I doubt I'll be able to say much else about the Celestia situation since I think you've already pretty much said everything there is to say about it (except for the whole sibling rivalry thing which I hope you'll touch on at a later time), so I'll just get off-track and talk about headcanons now.

Anyway...

I've always felt like Celestia is a divine figure in the same way that some historical people like Alexander the Great or Constantine XI are immortalized as legends - their stories embellished with myths and folklore. For example, Constantine XI is a kind of King in the Mountain to the Greeks that would come out and save them in their hour of need. However, Celestia is also kind of an actual divine figure in the sense that she has the power to be able to move the sun and moon and is very magically capable in general.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Celestia to me is in some sort of limbo between a god and just a particularly powerful pony.

I have this similar view with all the other powerful beings of MLP. Luna, Discord, Grogar... I view them with the mindset that there are no gods, only godly power. Of course, that doesn't mean that people won't praise them as gods or deities anyway. I think of Celestia as the romantic image of a ruler of legend spliced with a bit of the mysticism and power of a deity then spliced with a gentle and protective motherly figure and then spliced once more with a generally loving and caring princess of the people.

I realize that with the how unimportant the show made Celestia, this doesn't really make sense, but I'd like to think that in a world where the show actually cared for Celestia (as much as it did for Luna at least), that would be her portrayal.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Lord Grey

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

21 hours ago, Lord Grey said:

I've always felt like Celestia is a divine figure in the same way that some historical people like Alexander the Great or Constantine XI are immortalized as legends - their stories embellished with myths and folklore. For example, Constantine XI is a kind of King in the Mountain to the Greeks that would come out and save them in their hour of need. However, Celestia is also kind of an actual divine figure in the sense that she has the power to be able to move the sun and moon and is very magically capable in general.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Celestia to me is in some sort of limbo between a god and just a particularly powerful pony.

I have this similar view with all the other powerful beings of MLP. Luna, Discord, Grogar... I view them with the mindset that there are no gods, only godly power. Of course, that doesn't mean that people won't praise them as gods or deities anyway. I think of Celestia as the romantic image of a ruler of legend spliced with a bit of the mysticism and power of a deity then spliced with a gentle and protective motherly figure and then spliced once more with a generally loving and caring princess of the people.

I realize that with the how unimportant the show made Celestia, this doesn't really make sense, but I'd like to think that in a world where the show actually cared for Celestia (as much as it did for Luna at least), that would be her portrayal.

When I started watching the cartoon, Celestia was a goddess as far as I'was concerned. Later I realized that moving the sun, in a world full of magic is not necessarily a godly thing. But defining what a God is turned out so hard that I just concluded that both headcanons are perfectly fine. Either she is a goddess, or she isn't and both fit. I suppose your idea of a limbo makes sense to me.

I don't think that the show making her less important takes away from this interpretation. Like I said, a god, or godly power, can be difficult to define. Especially in a high fantasy setting. So, it's still valid as headcanon. Especially considering headcanon is supposed to enrich the canon.

[Princess Celestia 600]

Interesting!

lucky I brought popcorn

[Splashee 28,537]

Princess Celestia is supposed to be a scary ruler by the fact that all the ponies are scared of her in Season 1. But she's never done an evil thing. So I think she's just written as evil for jokes.

[EpicEnergy 22,074]

I think she's a good ruler. I also think that she's not very powerful regarding her magical capabilities.

[Princess Celestia 600]

On 2023-04-14 at 2:38 AM, EpicEnergy said:

I think she's a good ruler. I also think that she's not very powerful regarding her magical capabilities.

I would say that together we are strong in magic.

-No leader can do it alone, together is the way forward for a strong united Equestria.

Remember Friendship is Magic!