Was Luna deserving of her punishment?

[ManaMinori 4,145]

I have listened to the song "This is what it's like" by 4Everfeeebrony and also rewatched MLP:FiM many times over, yet each time, I just cannot help but wonder if Luna- or rather, Nightmare Moon, at the time- was truly deserving of the punishment received by the Element of Harmony through her own sister, Princess Celestia, at the time that she had chosen to banish best princess.

 

While both Discord and Sombra received stone imprisonment and banishment beneath the arctic ice for a whole millenia through the punishment of the elements, so too did Nightmare Moon receive a punishment of 1,000 years of banishment on the moon. But was that really appropriate, given the fact that Celestia was banishing her own sister, rather than a real villain that she had never known on a personal or emotional level, as she did with Luna. 

 

The lines of 4everfreebrony's song: "Its been a couple of weeks an I'm starting to shake", and: "its been a thousand years, never felt so alone. I don't know what I learned, I just want to go home" indicate that Luna's banishment in total isolation could've easily destroyed her mentality very early on into her isolation. 

 

While it is impossibly to analyze any real cognitive function of a fictional equine, we do know from actual Was Princess Luna deserving of her punishment? of humans that have been put in social isolation that brain function can not only cause white matter to form in both regions of the brain that is critical for thinking and emotional control, but also increased occurrences of depression and anxiety, along with reduced sleep and increased mortality. There is no doubt that such prolonged isolation, even with a fictional horse such as Luna, could've drastically effected her mentality well into the long term, after she had been freed of her own Nightmare's influence. 

 

It hurt me to rewatch episode 2 of season 1 every time, and see Celestia just stroll up to Luna and diagnose her problem as "having been unable to let true friendship into her heart" for her sister going rogue. To have the audacity to ask "will you accept my friendship?" and not "will you accept my apologies (for not noticing you or what you were going through before going rogue, for only wanting deserved appreciation for your beautiful night that should have been given just as much admiration as my day?") Like, FISH, what? The lack of Friendship wasn't the issue here, CELESTIA!!!! No apologies? Really? How mentally damaged is your baby sister after 1,000 of social isolation? Yet, right after she is rainbow blasted back into a weaker form, SHE is the one apologizing to Celestia! Let's get this girl some therapy, please!

[SharpWit 2,614]

I want to say no, I really do. There are reasons behind everyone's actions, and I think Celestia ought to bare some responsibility. However, hindsight is 20/20, and we can't gloss over what we know for certain.

Luna as Nightmare Moon attempted to "destroy" her sister.

An attack on the head of state is largely regarded as an attack on the state itself. We know now, thanks too time travel and alternate universe's, thank Nightmare Moon could've handled herself and Equestria just fine. But we didn't know that at the time of the attack. For all we know, the loss of Celestia would've been inspired all enemies, foreign and domestic, to jump at the opportunity of the perceived power vacuum. The damage should she have failed would've been near unfathomable.

Finally, we don't know how exactly the elements of harmony work when it comes to punishment. Perhaps it's an all or none scenario, and Celestia had no choice in the 1,000 year sentence.

Regardless, Hail Luna, long live the New Lunar Republic! 

[Goat-kun 2,527]

What exactly would you want me to do with a powerful immortal who had gone mad due to petty personal grievances? Celestia was very lenient. Such beings have their duty, and they must not abandon it due to a lack of praise.

 

I mean, sure, if you had managed to somehow convince Tirek to become a warden in your prison, then you could perhaps rehabilitate some of those magical nuts. Getting their powerless plots to dig them gems in the mines would do these ponies plenty of good. Work therapy!

[Metemponychosis 1,260]

You know what pisses me off about this conversation? It is that people point fingers at Celestia as though she had any control over what happened. Luna was the one that snapped. I think this conversation starts here. And I don't think that the working of the elements was ever explained in any way that made it seem as though anyone has any control over what they do. The whole point is moot.

Can we stop pretending that the cartoon even tried to make half of the drama people worked out over this issue? The cartoon couldn't even decide on how does one make a damn alicorn or how Luna's powers work, or even if the sun is actually or not  important.

On 2023-12-25 at 6:12 PM, ManaMinori said:

While it is impossibly to analyze any real cognitive function of a fictional equine, we do know from actual Was Princess Luna deserving of her punishment? of humans that have been put in social isolation that brain function can not only cause white matter to form in both regions of the brain that is critical for thinking and emotional control, but also increased occurrences of depression and anxiety, along with reduced sleep and increased mortality. There is no doubt that such prolonged isolation, even with a fictional horse such as Luna, could've drastically effected her mentality well into the long term, after she had been freed of her own Nightmare's influence. 

Jesus Christ. This is cringe worthy.

EDIt: You know what? Never mind me. People have been beating this dead horse mercilessly ever since the cartoon aired. It's been fourteen years and people still shove in their headcanon on this stuff. It's what fandoms do. But can we please, PLEASE, acknowledge that the cartoon moved on from that immediately, that Luna not only became a better character while the writers just shelved Celestia and that Luna herself acknowledged her own blame in that whole mess? Or perhaps acknowledge that Luna sitting alone in the moon, all sad and abandoned, is a headcanon? What the legend Twilight read  in the book actually said? And please, you don't have to convince people that isolation is bad for cartoon horses. Nobody ever argued against that.

Edited January 3 by Metemponychosis

[Pentium100 2,121]

1 hour ago, Metemponychosis said:

It is that people point fingers at Celestia as though she had any control over what happened. Luna was the one that snapped.

99% of the blame goes to Luna. She decided that not having enough attention warrants staging a coup and possibly killing a bunch of ponies (when Celestia and Luna fought not all magic beams landed on their intended targets, so I'm sure there was a lot collateral damage).

However, Celestia shares a tiny bit of the blame because she ignored the situation and let it fester until it blew up in her face. 

The punishment for treason in many countries is either life in prison or death (and in the past there sometimes was a worse form of death penalty reserved for treason), so Luna got off easy in a way, only spending 1000 years in prison (we don't know how long alicorns live).

Also, as I understand, the banishment may not have been the intention of Celestia. It seems that the Elements work randomly - they turned Discord to stone (twice), banished Luna the first time, but exorcised/brainwashed her (depending on your interpretation of what Nightmare Moon was) the second time.

[Megas 27,569]

I don’t think so and clearly Celestia didn’t think so either. It was really clear it was a situation that she want to be in and a decision she didn’t want to make 

[Iforgotmybrain 5,527]

Agree that it was a pretty harsh punishment but Celestia didn't really have any other options. How would you imprison an all powerful magic being otherwise? Plus Celestia ended up being the one who freed Luna from banishment once the elements of harmony returned in the form of the mane 6 (or at least I think that's how the first two episodes went, I haven't watched season 1 in a while). So I feel like she probably always intended to try and rehabilitate her sister eventually. It was just a matter of waiting for the right moment.

[velvetwishes 1]

I really would like, for the sake of the narrative and nature of MLP, to say: "Yes! She was! It was a reasonable consequence of her actions! *vomits tough love*" but in my heart, I just can't. What Luna, or Nightmare, did was absolutely awful. Not an argument. But in my opinion, it was still a drastic measure to do against your own sister. Not to mention the general effects of being trapped to the moon. But also, I think Celestia herself knew that it was wrong- and was a last resort for her too. I imagine it to be in someway similar to the actions and thinking that any gaurdian/patent et cetera would have with an unruly or downright malicious kid (can't image what it would be like if your kid (or in context, just generally your responsibility) staged a coup for attention). Her actions were pure desperation. 

[Number62 1,258]

On 2024-01-02 at 10:10 PM, Metemponychosis said:

You know what pisses me off about this conversation? It is that people point fingers at Celestia as though she had any control over what happened. Luna was the one that snapped. I think this conversation starts here. And I don't think that the working of the elements was ever explained in any way that made it seem as though anyone has any control over what they do. The whole point is moot.

Can we stop pretending that the cartoon even tried to make half of the drama people worked out over this issue? The cartoon couldn't even decide on how does one make a damn alicorn or how Luna's powers work, or even if the sun is actually or not  important.

Jesus Christ. This is cringe worthy.

EDIt: You know what? Never mind me. People have been beating this dead horse mercilessly ever since the cartoon aired. It's been fourteen years and people still shove in their headcanon on this stuff. It's what fandoms do. But can we please, PLEASE, acknowledge that the cartoon moved on from that immediately, that Luna not only became a better character while the writers just shelved Celestia and that Luna herself acknowledged her own blame in that whole mess? Or perhaps acknowledge that Luna sitting alone in the moon, all sad and abandoned, is a headcanon? What the legend Twilight read  in the book actually said? And please, you don't have to convince people that isolation is bad for cartoon horses. Nobody ever argued against that.

It's pretty easy to sympathize with Luna when seeing her surface including the backstory and "punishment". Note that I said easy, not sensible as sympathizers also ignored the other stunts Luna attempted as well as her own actions and decisions.

[SBaby 660]

So here's the thing.  Someone else mentioned this.  The Elements of Harmony are a sentient entity that seem to decide themselves what they want the punishment to be (the only thing they seem to be unable to do is outright kill others).  Celestia likely didn't have any control over what they did.  The other thing is, the Nightmare Entity is not only an otherworldly being, but it's basically a god that can't normally be stopped in martial combat.  So in the grand scheme of things, it was probably the only option.  It's clear that Celestia didn't want to use them, and she likely didn't know what was going to happen (or if anything, thought Luna might be turned to stone for awhile).

So is Luna deserving of being banished for 1000 years?  Probably not.  But Celestia certainly isn't at fault for what the Elements decided to do.

 

On 2024-01-03 at 12:10 AM, Metemponychosis said:

EDIt: You know what? Never mind me. People have been beating this dead horse mercilessly ever since the cartoon aired. It's been fourteen years and people still shove in their headcanon on this stuff. It's what fandoms do. But can we please, PLEASE, acknowledge that the cartoon moved on from that immediately, that Luna not only became a better character while the writers just shelved Celestia and that Luna herself acknowledged her own blame in that whole mess? Or perhaps acknowledge that Luna sitting alone in the moon, all sad and abandoned, is a headcanon? What the legend Twilight read  in the book actually said? And please, you don't have to convince people that isolation is bad for cartoon horses. Nobody ever argued against that.

Look, nobody is making you read this topic or post in it.  Just saying.  We're talking about it because we like continuity in our shows, and while this show is by no means perfect, it is the best written and most detailed series in the history of the franchise.  So of course we're going to continue to talk about it.  As you said, that's what fandoms do.

Edited January 11 by SBaby