Science in a world of magic

[Broccoli 127]

In our world, science brings us many of the neccessities of life, such as cars, rockets, and the laptop I am typing on. There are also rules set by science; rules which work out the general workings of the Universe.

 

Recently a thought came to my head: "Why would Twilight Sparkle be interested in science when she has magic?" I can think of many advantages which magic has over science. For example, take Twilight's antigravity trick from the Crystal Empire episode. With the help of magic, she reversed her gravitational pull so that she would be falling upwards. If she used science, and say, tried to make a device which would create antigravity. She wouldn't be successful, because that isn't something that is possible in science. Artificial gravity is, but not antigravity.

 

To point out more examples, take a look at the Too Many Pinkie Pies episode, where Twilight was trying to turn an apple into an orange. If she did not have magic, turning an apple into an orange would be very difficult. But as it turns out, all Twilight needs to do is to wip up some glowing stuff from her horn and she could turn just about anything into an orange, including a frog and a bird. All she had to do was to use magic. How convenient is that, eh? 

 

Also, the magic unicorns do (and Pinkie Pie) defy the laws of physics, and is not allowed or cannot be accomplished under the scientific rules set in our universe. Unless of course, in the MLP universe there is a different form of science which allows science and magic to exist harmoniously in the same universe, and would help explain why science exists in a society where unicorns can create objects with their thoughts.

 

Like Twi, Princess Bubblegum from Adventure Time also has an obsession over science, yet the land of Ooo is just about as magical as Equestria is. I personally think that science is not needed at all in a world like Equestria. Magic just seems so much more convenient than science, and there are many things magic can accomplish that Science cannot. Yet, there may be things which can only be done through science, and not magic. 

 

TL;DR : What is the importance of science in a world of magic? Feel free to share your thoughts on this. Thanks! 

[SOHCAHTOA 51]

Well, for starters, science is not only about it's practical uses, but it also serves for understanding the universe. Mr. Cake explains his son and daughter not being Earth Ponies by talking about members from his or Mrs. Cake family who weren't Earth Ponies either, and even to a child that seens plausible. But isn't it much more believable if you have some understanding of genetics? Sure magic can do lots of things, but does it explain what stars are made of? Or what's inside the planet?

 

Also, while the magic of some Unicorns and Alicorns (Rarity and Cadance come to mind) are focused solely on one special talent, one type of magic; Celestia, Twilight, and most likely Starswirl the Bearded too, are mages through and through, in that they have knowledge of very varied spells, and they need to study to learn more spells. I believe that magic itself is a form of science, but in the same way that you don't need to understand gravity to fall, ponies don't need to understand magic to be capable of using it.

[GuillermoGage 246]

I would like an explanation for how the seasons work if celestial bodies like the sun and moon are moved manually.

 

What explanation can there be for choosing to raise the sun and moon at (supposedly) similar intervals as on our Earth?

 

The ponies have to manually remove winter from their land for spring to begin. Does this mean that they also control when the other seasons start, by manually causing it, or does spring turn into summer by itself, then into fall, then into a winter that will remain eternal unless the ponies do something about it?

 

Is it possible that, even with the three Hearth's Warming Eve ponies deciding to get along, it didn't drive away the winter spirits forever and they can still somehow perpetually try to impose winter on Equestria? And they can only be driven away for like three seasons (On our Earth it would be nine months) before they come back?

Are they so powerful that not even Celestia can stop them? Well, they are from BC (Before Celestia) times.

 

But maybe that doesn't make sense because the winter they made was particularly brutal, and the winter in Ponyville does not seem that cold. But maybe that is because they are weakened. But for them to even be an ounce active anymore seems to be a never-live-it-down thing.

 

Is it that winter is able to persist because ponies are not perfect and don't always get along? Would that make the severity of winter something that variates from year to year?

 

That would be a morbid thought. Winter basically exists because of ordinary pony sinning or even just because ancient ponies were briefly immoral to each other?

Edited January 7, 2013 by GuillermoGage

[Discordian 6,013]

Well let's think about it this way: Magic is the ability to morph the world with the mind of the spellcaster while science is a way to explain how or why that happens. People usually consider science and magic separate things but I've always believed, whether in reality or fiction, that magic and science are one in the same. Science allows us to do things we couldn't do on our own like harness electricity to create light, warmth and refridgeration. Well what if magic was exactly the same thing? Does the spellcaster not understand how to cast magic and why it makes things happen the way it does? It doesn't seem like Twilight uses magic simply out of a force of will. She has to learn it, she has to study it, she has to be technical in her ways of using it. The reason she is much more proficient than most other ponies is because she took the time to learn it in more depth than just the simple needs of her daily life like most ponies (such as Rarity who uses it to find gems for her wardrobe and business)

 

This isn't even getting into the Cutie Marks, mind you.

 

Even if it's flashier in fiction or more unexplainable it seems most spellcasters in fiction know the nature of what it is they are doing. They aren't just learning an incantation and casting it, they understand how or why it happens. This is essentially what science is: Observation of the universe in an attempt to explain and understand it. This goes for ANY universe, not just the reality we know.

[Harmonic Revelations 8,833]

She studies science and magic. In the world of ponies they coexist, the reason she studies science is because she likes reading and learning, not that it gives her any advantage. It's the same reason I like learning, it's a reasonable position to take.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Harmonic Revelations

[SOHCAHTOA 51]

@@GuillermoGage, I think that's just natural OCD from the ponies. Take Everfree Forest. That's proof that nature happens by itself in this world, however, just the idea of clouds being moved by the winds, or rainwater evaporating into clouds seems ghostly to the ponies. Although I like your idea that it only gets colder through the seasons because the Windigos live on. They're cool. Too bad they're more forces of nature than villains, since they always act indirectly, thus, they'll never become proper antagonists.

 

@@Discordian,  by what has been established in the series, each unicorn has one type of special magic they can use, associated with their talents. They don't need to study to learn it, they need to discover their purpose in life (Cutie Mark). Not mention the innate magic pertaining to the Pegasi and Earth Ponies. Magic is very rarely studied in the word of My Little Pony, and it's not about everyone who can learn more of it by studying. Twilight can only learn new spells studying because her special talent, her Cutie Mark, is "Magic". Rarity couldn't learn more spells if she wanted to (at least that's what I think. I've been wrong before).

[Discordian 6,013]

@@GuillermoGage, I think that's just natural OCD from the ponies. Take Everfree Forest. That's proof that nature happens by itself in this world, however, just the idea of clouds being moved by the winds, or rainwater evaporating into clouds seems ghostly to the ponies. Although I like your idea that it only gets colder through the seasons because the Windigos live on. They're cool. Too bad they're more forces of nature than villains, since they always act indirectly, thus, they'll never become proper antagonists.

 

@@Discordian,  by what has been established in the series, each unicorn has one type of special magic they can use, associated with their talents. They don't need to study to learn it, they need to discover their purpose in life (Cutie Mark). Not mention the innate magic pertaining to the Pegasi and Earth Ponies. Magic is very rarely studied in the word of My Little Pony, and it's not about everyone who can learn more of it by studying. Twilight can only learn new spells studying because her special talent, her Cutie Mark, is "Magic". Rarity couldn't learn more spells if she wanted to (at least that's what I think. I've been wrong before).

 

I understand Cutie Marks well enough however I don't believe they ever stated that they COULDN'T learn more magic if they didn't want to. Look at the Cake twins. The unicorn one (forget which one that was) learned to make him/herself levitate long before they would ever have found out their talents. Also proven by Trixie that the ability to learn magic is not necessarily tied down to your Cutie Mark but rather your proficiency at it.

 

Plus we know nothing of Starswirl the Bearded and what his Cutie Mark was so who's to say he didn't just teach himself all that magic? What about Celestia and Luna who have a wealth of magic in them despite having very specific abilities via their Cutie Marks?

 

There's evidence that all unicorns can learn some semblance of magic regardless of their personal skills and Cutie Marks, just that they don't necessarily have any interest in it or will be any good at it like Twilight.

 

What is the purpose of all those books on learning magic and the academy Twilight was in but to learn magic? There were certainly more than just magic Cutie Marks at that academy and the entry for it required the hatching of a dragon egg which is not your typical magic power.

[01000111 01101111 01 18]

I'd like to imagine that science is used for pegasus and earth ponies so they can know the limits of what they can do, if that makes sense. Of course unicorns such as Twilight can reverse gravity, but can an earth pony? No, so the earth ponies, and possibly pegasi study science and their universe's laws so that they know gravity exists and can get an idea of how it works, which is just one example. The one scientist/mathematician we saw in the show was an earth pony, but I'm probably grasping at straws at this point...

 

Edit: Oh! SOHCAHTOA has the same general idea it seems.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Magdalene Reads

[SOHCAHTOA 51]

I understand Cutie Marks well enough however I don't believe they ever stated that they COULDN'T learn more magic if they didn't want to. Look at the Cake twins. The unicorn one (forget which one that was) learned to make him/herself levitate long before they would ever have found out their talents. Also proven by Trixie that the ability to learn magic is not necessarily tied down to your Cutie Mark but rather your proficiency at it.

 

Plus we know nothing of Starswirl the Bearded and what his Cutie Mark was so who's to say he didn't just teach himself all that magic? What about Celestia and Luna who have a wealth of magic in them despite having very specific abilities via their Cutie Marks?

 

There's evidence that all unicorns can learn some semblance of magic regardless of their personal skills and Cutie Marks, just that they don't necessarily have any interest in it or will be any good at it like Twilight.

 

What is the purpose of all those books on learning magic and the academy Twilight was in but to learn magic? There were certainly more than just magic Cutie Marks at that academy and the entry for it required the hatching of a dragon egg which is not your typical magic power.

 

Ok. First of all, every known Unicorn can do Telekinesis, and that's what Pumpkin Cake did. She just used the most generic of all spells on herself, something that'd be hard if she didn't weigh so little. And Trixie does not prove anything. She doesn't learn magic, she never did. Her special talent is showmanship, so obviously she utilizes tricks and sleigh of hand. If you pay attention to it, every magic she used before the Alicorn amulet just involved humiliating her hecklers. In fact, the way she's so boastful makes me think her show always involved using weak tricks until someone made themselves a target for her specialty. She only used other magic after obtaining the Alicorn amulet, but those spells came directly from the amulet, she didn't "learn" anything. And yes, we don't know anything about Starswirl the Bearded, for all we know he might have had the same Cutie Mark as Twilight. Who's to say he's not an Ancestral to her. One millenium passed, the guy should have a big family who doesn't know they're related to him. But anyway, before putting him in the conversation we should have some information about him. There is no place for assumptions here.

 

Celestia and Luna are exceptional. Who knows, they might even be exceptions. And Twilight's "magic" cutie mark is represented by stars. Maybe Celestia and Luna's also represent magic in general, but they're specialized in light/dark magic.

 

There is NO evidence that all unicorns can learn some semblance of magic regardless of their personal skills and Cutie Marks. On the other hand, it is stated that Twilight's ability to learn different spells and even copy other Unicorns' spells is something special and unique, in the episode A Dog and Pony Show.

 

Now, I'll skip the books for a while. First, the hatching of a dragon egg. Who said that's a usual test? Ponies don't often find dragon eggs, or else there would be lots more of dragons living with ponies, not to mention Celestia was the one who raised Spike until he became Twilight's assistant. Imagine the amount of dragons she'd have to watch over if that was a regular test. I don't know why she made it a test (though I do have some theories, which are nothing but speculation), but I doubt that has ever happened before or since. And regardless of the Cutie Marks of the other fillies and colts in Magic Kindergarten, who says that place even teaches magic? Maybe it just helps ponies to learn what's their talent and helps them learn to better control it.

 

Now to the books. That's where you hit jackpot. You're right. You're totally right. I don't think there would be so many books about magic if it was impossible for regular Unicorns to learn magic. You're most likely right. Unicorns can learn magic if they dedicate themselves to the cause, and it's most likely that most unicorns simply see no reason to learn more magic than what they can do naturally. Twilight can just learn magic more easily as she has a "Magic" Cutie Mark.

[Starswirl the Trixie 974]

Uh, why do we think that "magic" and "science" are opposites?  Magic does not exist on Earth.  So?  This is Equestria.  It's like saying that a movie about science (sadly I believe there are hardly any) are not really about science if the main character is fictional.  In science today we generally accept that there are four "fundamental forces": Strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravitational.  Why could, in a world like Equestria, there not be a fifth?

 

I think his may reflect a problem in societal views that "science" simply means "facts about science".  Hell no.  The vast majority of our scientific ideas today will be proved utterly wrong in the next 500 years.  "Science" refers to the scientific method and analysis of empirical data.  Magic is not against science, it just so happens to not exist.  Sort of like unicorns.  Unicorns easily COULD exist, they don't defy physics or anything.  It's just that they don't.  So there's nothing illogical about pairing science with magic.

[Winona the Dog 1,981]

Like Twi, Princess Bubblegum from Adventure Time also has an obsession over science, yet the land of Ooo is just about as magical as Equestria is. I personally think that science is not needed at all in a world like Equestria. Magic just seems so much more convenient than science, and there are many things magic can accomplish that Science cannot. Yet, there may be things which can only be done through science, and not magic. 

 

I was about to mention the same thing. Although Twilight is intelligent just like Princess Bubblegum so i think she's trying to not be completely reliant on magic instead she might be trying to make it so So both science and magic can work together in harmony. Just like in the Super Cider Queeezy episode where Flim and Flam use their magic to power up their machine. 

[SOHCAHTOA 51]

Uh, why do we think that "magic" and "science" are opposites?  Magic does not exist on Earth.  So?  This is Equestria.  It's like saying that a movie about science (sadly I believe there are hardly any) are not really about science if the main character is fictional.  In science today we generally accept that there are four "fundamental forces": Strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravitational.  Why could, in a world like Equestria, there not be a fifth?

 

I think his may reflect a problem in societal views that "science" simply means "facts about science".  Hell no.  The vast majority of our scientific ideas today will be proved utterly wrong in the next 500 years.  "Science" refers to the scientific method and analysis of empirical data.  Magic is not against science, it just so happens to not exist.  Sort of like unicorns.  Unicorns easily COULD exist, they don't defy physics or anything.  It's just that they don't.  So there's nothing illogical about pairing science with magic.

 

No one here said anything to the effect of "science and magic are opposites". In fact, I said the opposite, that magic is one type of science. Or were you not talking to anyone in this thread, but rather unespecifically to other people who believe magic and science to be opposites?

[wartorious 31]

The ponies have to manually remove winter from their land for spring to begin. Does this mean that they also control when the other seasons start, by manually causing it, or does spring turn into summer by itself, then into fall, then into a winter that will remain eternal unless the ponies do something about it?

 

 

if you remember your pony lore, winter did last forever. That's why they had to be happy and thankful  

Yeah if magic was real then it would be a part of science (or maybe the arts). 

 

another idea I had was that earth pony's invented the sciences, and unicorns the magic. it would seem to make sense, 

 

[SOHCAHTOA 51]

Unicorns didn't "invent" the magic. Many creatures are magical, and even Earth Ponies and Pegasus have certain innate magic. The difference is that Unicorns are capable of applying magic, but they weren't the first: Discord is said to have lived for Eons, and he is capable of using magic, despite not being an Unicorn, or even an Alicorn. And no one "invented" science. Maybe earth ponies were the first to study the world, but it's impossible to invent science for the same reason it is impossible to invent gravity. You can discover it, but not invent it.

 

And about the winter part. Yeah, you're right about that. But you seem to be confused: Guillermo is talking about the winter lasting forever in the present day. If the ponies have already removed the Windigos, then it no longer lasts forever, so why would they need to remove the winter manually? My theory is: tradition and a fear of not being in control of everything (remember, they're scared by the fact the clouds move by themselves in the Everfree Forest).

[Scootalove 10,684]

I can relate the magic from Twilight Sparkle in MLP FiM to the science from Princess Bubblegum in Adventure Time, but mostly magic comes from Pegasi, Earth Ponies , Unicorns , Alicorns etc. Science is a law in nature and education, that can make many ailments for health industries, cure diseases, and make new discoveries of the Elements on the Periodic Table. So, long story short, Twilight spent her life learning and studying magic, it can relate to science if it is scientifically possible. Magic can cause many miracles in fairy tales or in this case, cause Friendship between friends to happen thus the name My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

[SOHCAHTOA 51]

I can relate the magic from Twilight Sparkle in MLP FiM to the science from Princess Bubblegum in Adventure Time, but mostly magic comes from Pegasi, Earth Ponies , Unicorns , Alicorns etc. Science is a law in nature and education, that can make many ailments for health industries, cure diseases, and make new discoveries of the Elements on the Periodic Table. So, long story short, Twilight spent her life learning and studying magic, it can relate to science if it is scientifically possible. Magic can cause many miracles in fairy tales or in this case, cause Friendship between friends to happen thus the name My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.

 

Well, the friendship is not caused by magic, friendship causes magic. Also, I'm not sure I understood what you said. Did you show an opinion? To me that seems more like a simple observation. You haven't stated anything that I don't find obvious. Maybe this is not as obvious as I think? Maybe I shouldn't hold others to my standards... no seriously, that seems too obvious. Did you say anything important there? Sorry if I'm sounding rude...

[Pale Plague 8]

 

Well let's think about it this way: Magic is the ability to morph the world with the mind of the spellcaster while science is a way to explain how or why that happens. People usually consider science and magic separate things but I've always believed, whether in reality or fiction, that magic and science are one in the same. Science allows us to do things we couldn't do on our own like harness electricity to create light, warmth and refridgeration. Well what if magic was exactly the same thing? Does the spellcaster not understand how to cast magic and why it makes things happen the way it does? It doesn't seem like Twilight uses magic simply out of a force of will. She has to learn it, she has to study it, she has to be technical in her ways of using it. The reason she is much more proficient than most other ponies is because she took the time to learn it in more depth than just the simple needs of her daily life like most ponies (such as Rarity who uses it to find gems for her wardrobe and business)

 

This isn't even getting into the Cutie Marks, mind you.

 

Even if it's flashier in fiction or more unexplainable it seems most spellcasters in fiction know the nature of what it is they are doing. They aren't just learning an incantation and casting it, they understand how or why it happens. This is essentially what science is: Observation of the universe in an attempt to explain and understand it. This goes for ANY universe, not just the reality we know.

 

Uh, why do we think that "magic" and "science" are opposites?  Magic does not exist on Earth.  So?  This is Equestria.  It's like saying that a movie about science (sadly I believe there are hardly any) are not really about science if the main character is fictional.  In science today we generally accept that there are four "fundamental forces": Strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravitational.  Why could, in a world like Equestria, there not be a fifth?

 

I think his may reflect a problem in societal views that "science" simply means "facts about science".  Hell no.  The vast majority of our scientific ideas today will be proved utterly wrong in the next 500 years.  "Science" refers to the scientific method and analysis of empirical data.  Magic is not against science, it just so happens to not exist.  Sort of like unicorns.  Unicorns easily COULD exist, they don't defy physics or anything.  It's just that they don't.  So there's nothing illogical about pairing science with magic.

 

I agree with what Starswirl and Discordian has to say of science and magic. Though I feel that magic is another term for imagination or creativity, a grey subject itself. Science is something that tries to find the why and how of things that exist which also includes the mind and what it concurs. Einstein himself has said that Imagination is more important than knowledge, and the reason I feel for it is because science stays by what is known. It tries to gather facts by observing, either bringing the lab to the subject or vice versa. It tries to dig in to chunks of the relative unknown whilst still sticking to what is sought and observed.

 

Imagination, creativity, the world of intuition or abstract then comes in here when we want to find a sort of schema or pattern to what is not known in relation to what is known. We have to base our knowledge on what we know. Socrates himself has said we know nothing. We're just comparing and making connections to our experiences, to our base of knowledge, if not it, our minds are able to take us away with our own to do creation of illusion. If we cannot agree with something, we may deny and with that, we create barriers in our mind to seal away our fears.

 

Science can exist alongside magic, because for one - while undefinable as seemingly as it is, there are things within it, of it, that we can note down, that we can learn from ulitmately. It's just so that the unknown is mostly feared, because of what we feel may be affected from it, or that the possibilities we concur from our mind it offers that cause a diversion between the two as seen with Twilight and Pinkie Pie (with her pinkie sensth).

 

 

"We know little of what is to know,

Even Lesser of what is known"

Edited January 9, 2013 by Pale Plague