How far is Hasbro C&D willing to go?

[Guest]

 

 

Okay, matter of principle, I understand that, but my point is, when you make something that you've put hours into your life into making, and then it just gets taken down, that's one of the ultimate kicks in the groin.

 

 

Yeah, but also keep in mind it's kind of a kick to the groins when people use your product without permission.

[GrimCW 658]

George Lucas has allowed thousands upon thousands of fans make their own games, movies, apps, shows, parodies

 

 

To be fair, LucasArts did attack a few fan projects JUST before the release of the Jedi Knight 2 game.

But that was in an effort to push their own product and prevent the mods from being more popular. Plus, the mods attacked used the same engine (Quake 3)

 

Also though in this example, that enticed the SALE of another product in order to play a star wars title. One that LucasArts didn't profit from.

Button Mash and other MLP fan projects didn't TMK have this restraint where a service not controlled by Hasbro is being paid for...

Edited March 23, 2014 by GrimCW

[Zhortac 1,475]

Before anyone cries "APOCALYPSE OF OUR FANDOM!!!!", I'd like to point out that Hasbro, has not come close to the level of bullcrap that Toei, 4kids, Bandai, Disney, and Microshaft have hit.

[Geek0zoid 1,468]

@,

Perhaps so, but I still just find it unfair that it gets taken down even if there's no profit. If they did it with Hasbro's permission, and the money was going to them, would it be different?

[Guest]

 

 

All they needed to do was acknowledge it and they would've been covered. Endorse it, and they could've made more money. License it, and they could've started another toy lineup. When the quality of work is that high, the options that involve directly taking control OF the content are far better than those that DESTROY it.

 

That's a very poor business decision to be honest with you. That's saying to reward the people who are stealing your IP... Just because the quality is high (debatable) doesn't mean that the people should be rewarded. It looks poor to other businesses. Not to mention there is always the off chance of Jan Animations turning down the partnership.

 

Also, why should Hasbro license it? Why should they pay for Jan Animations to rip them off? Jan Animations should pay Hasbro to use the IP.

[Andaasonsan 3,205]

@@DiscordAnarchy

 

You really have to be playing very fast and loose with the concept of a parody to consider Button Mash to be one, because it in no way satirizes or comments on FiM.

[Guest]

@,

Perhaps so, but I still just find it unfair that it gets taken down even if there's no profit. If they did it with Hasbro's permission, and the money was going to them, would it be different?

Potentially, but they would need a contract. Not to mention trying to acquire permission after the fact is kind of well... Yeah.

[Geek0zoid 1,468]

@,

Doing fanwork with the permission of the company requires a lot of stuff prior. 

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

That's a very poor business decision to be honest with you. That's saying to reward the people who are stealing your IP... Just because the quality is high (debatable) doesn't mean that the people should be rewarded. It looks poor to other businesses. Not to mention there is always the off chance of Jan Animations turning down the partnership.

 

Also, why should Hasbro license it? Why should they pay for Jan Animations to rip them off? Jan Animations should pay Hasbro to use the IP.

Because it could foster better relations with your fanbase, and those better relations allow you to charge a bit more for your products, and make a better end dollar. Adding a talented fan or two to the "secondary" team, could possibly foster better relations with your clientele, and allow you to charge them more due to you having a better standing with them.

[Andaasonsan 3,205]

Because it could foster better relations with your fanbase, and those better relations allow you to charge a bit more for your products, and make a better end dollar. Adding a talented fan or two to the "secondary" team, could possibly foster better relations with your clientele, and allow you to charge them more due to you having a better standing with them.

But then they would be establishing a really bad precedent. It would send the message "if you want a job at Hasbro, then rip off our shit!".

[Guest]

Because it could foster better relations with your fanbase, and those better relations allow you to charge a bit more for your products, and make a better end dollar. Adding a talented fan or two to the "secondary" team, could possibly foster better relations with your clientele, and allow you to charge them more due to you having a better standing with them.

 

Ummm... I am just going to say this as a business major: business with other companies is far more important than relations with your fanbase. As much as that doesn't sound right, it makes sense. Big companies commissioning you make bigger bucks. If it becomes a choice between losing some fans or losing relationships with other companies, the fans will always be the ones dropped unless the circumstances are significant.

 

Also better relations don't allow you to charge more. One thing I have seen about bronies is they want higher quality stuff, for lower prices. It has almost the complete opposite effect; it makes the fans spoiled and entitled. They want more for less then.

[GrimCW 658]

But then they would be establishing a really bad precedent. It would send the message "if you want a job at Hasbro, then rip off our shit!".

Not really, it'd put the precedent that quality work can be rewarded. Its profited heavily for Valve, whom have even allowed complete rebuilds of their games to have been made for free by the fans, and hired on modders to their staff in order to sell the once free content.

Edited March 23, 2014 by GrimCW

[The Ponyville Critic 304]

As the C&D order from Hasbro to Jan Animations stated, it was not a case of the use of the characters, but for it being confused with the Friendship is Magic TV show by using it's art style, the same applies to Double Rainboom.

 

 

 

"by creating a likelihood of dilution or confusion." They say.

 

There is no room for argument in this case, and with Fighting is Magic, the C&D was not submitted over concerns of profits, I believe it was a case of it being a Fighting game which goes against the spirit of the show and therefore, could've been confused with official Hasbro content.

Edited March 23, 2014 by The Ponyville Critic

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

Ummm... I am just going to say this as a business major: business with other companies is far more important than relations with your fanbase. As much as that doesn't sound right, it makes sense. Big companies commissioning you make bigger bucks. If it becomes a choice between losing some fans or losing relationships with other companies, the fans will always be the ones dropped unless the circumstances are significant.

 

Also better relations don't allow you to charge more. One thing I have seen about bronies is they want higher quality stuff, for lower prices. It has almost the complete opposite effect; it makes the fans spoiled and entitled. They want more for less then.

They say they want more for less, then buy a $800 plushy. Hasbro could capitalize on this fanbase a lot more, without alienating other businesses. Edited March 23, 2014 by Adjudant Reflex

[Guest]

Not really, it'd put the precedent that quality work can be rewarded. Its profited heavily for Valve, whom have even allowed complete rebuilds of their games to have been made for free by the fans, and hired on modders to their staff in order to sell the once free content.

Two different companies, different ideals. They are entitled to not follow a model that another company has set. Just because it works for Valve doesn't mean it'll work out for them.

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

But then they would be establishing a really bad precedent. It would send the message "if you want a job at Hasbro, then rip off our shit!".

So far the "higher fans who make good stuff" has worked for valve. Just look at gmod. That is a modder, using valves engines and assets, that they allow garry to sell on steam.

[GrimCW 658]

the C&D was not submitted over concerns of profits,

 

could've been confused with official Hasbro content.

 

No, and yes.

first and foremost it is ALWAYS about profit.

 

while it could've been confused with official content, that same line could be used for ANYTHING that uses the style (since thats the stated reason), so they have a LOT of work to do if thats the problem. 

As for going against the spirit of the show.. Not really. Button Mash only had a pilot, he wasn't even fleshed out and hadn't been really given a purpose yet. But from the pilot, its not really much different than what the comics have done, let alone the show. Button mash, aside from other fan works around him, never went against the show, but nor had he a chance to be put into perspective either.

 

 

So far the "higher fans who make good stuff" has worked for valve. Just look at gmod. That is a modder, using valves engines and assets, that they allow garry to sell on steam.

 

 

Counter Strike, Team Fortress 2 (original TF was a mod for Quake, not even Valves title!), Garry's mod, black mesa project, etc...

Valves take is to "please the fans" and they do. In doing so they've garnered immense support and massive profits, expanding themselves from simple game development to publishing and direct sales. Now they're expanding more with what they've made, and still being nice to the fans. SteamOS... is going to be FREE....

 

Oh and mind you, that free remake of the original HL hasn't cost them the HL license in any way. And that isn't just a look alike, its a literal remake.

Edited March 23, 2014 by GrimCW

[Guest]

They say they want more for less, then buy a $800 plushy. Hasbro could capitalize on this fanbase a lot more, without alienating other businesses.

They pay that because there is no high quality option from Hasbro. And I have been in the plushie market, it's pretty rare people pay $800 for a plushie these days, and the prices are being dragged down by consumers who want more for less. A majority of people I see are forced to sell plushies for $250-300 and it's dropping. The moment someone makes plushies of the same quality for a lower price, they jump on them.

 

Fans want higher quality products for less money. The more you give in, the more they will expect.

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

They pay that because there is no high quality option from Hasbro. And I have been in the plushie market, it's pretty rare people pay $800 for a plushie these days, and the prices are being dragged down by consumers who want more for less. A majority of people I see are forced to sell plushies for $250-300 and it's dropping. The moment someone makes plushies of the same quality for a lower price, they jump on them.

 

Fans want higher quality products for less money. The more you give in, the more they will expect.

"because there is no high quality option from hasbro", seems to me like hasbro is missing out on a pretty decent market. And people are always going to try to go for the lowest price, but if hasbro can capitalize on its fan base, they can gain more markets, sell more expensive items, and garner more profit.

[Guest]

No, and yes.

first and foremost it is ALWAYS about profit.

 

while it could've been confused with official content, that same line could be used for ANYTHING that uses the style (since thats the stated reason), so they have a LOT of work to do if thats the problem. 

As for going against the spirit of the show.. Not really. Button Mash only had a pilot, he wasn't even fleshed out and hadn't been really given a purpose yet. But from the pilot, its not really much different than what the comics have done, let alone the show. Button mash, aside from other fan works around him, never went against the show, but nor had he a chance to be put into perspective either.

 

 

 

 

Counter Strike, Team Fortress 2 (original TF was a mod for Quake, not even Valves title!), Garry's mod, black mesa project, etc...

Valves take is to "please the fans" and they do. In doing so they've garnered immense support and massive profits, expanding themselves from simple game development to publishing and direct sales. Now they're expanding more with what they've made, and still being nice to the fans. SteamOS... is going to be FREE....

That strategy does not work for everyone, and is high risk. Valve was willing to take the risk and it paid off, but also Valve is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COMPANY. They specialize in digital product, Hasbro does not. They have their product in multiple mediums. They are not comparable. Not to mention their audience is different. Slapping on a winning strategy from Valve does not create the same success.

 

That's not how business works.

"because there is no high quality option from hasbro", seems to me like hasbro is missing out on a pretty decent market. And people are always going to try to go for the lowest price, but if hasbro can capitalize on its fan base, they can gain more markets, sell more expensive items, and garner more profit.

I took business, they are actually only missing out on a headache. The people who are making these "products" are going to try and squeeze all they can out of Hasbro. Not to mention their products quality comes from being handmade. If Hasbro bought the rights to them, they would produce them in factories to a significantly lower quality because it's cheaper. If they had them continue to be hand made they are not going to be identical and it'll be more expensive for them in the long run. They also will produce far less product.

 

Not to mention that they would be reliant on these people. They are more or less handing their plushie market over to fans and those fans that they hired would put Hasbro at their mercy. They will refuse to work with Hasbro unless the contract agreement is entirely in their favor. Don't tell me they wouldn't and they would just be "happy to work with Hasbro", not when money is involved. When money gets involved it soon becomes "I want what I feel I'm entitled to" and considering they will know their product will be the highest demanded, they will want a lot and they will want the ability to take their product away from Hasbro if Hasbro ever pisses them off.

 

The reality of it is: Hasbro will never sign a deal with these people because they will demand so much that it would put Hasbro at their mercy. They are not going to do that because it's a headache and it's not worth the money.

[Zhortac 1,475]

Based on that letter, there's a high chance that Flufflepuff and Milkmare are going to get nailed with a C&D at some point, possibly soon.

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

That strategy does not work for everyone, and is high risk. Valve was willing to take the risk and it paid off, but also Valve is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT COMPANY. They specialize in digital product, Hasbro does not. They have their product in multiple mediums. They are not comparable. Not to mention their audience is different. Slapping on a winning strategy from Valve does not create the same success.

 

That's not how business works.

I took business, they are actually only missing out on a headache. The people who are making these "products" are going to try and squeeze all they can out of Hasbro. Not to mention their products quality comes from being handmade. If Hasbro bought the rights to them, they would produce them in factories to a significantly lower quality because it's cheaper. If they had them continue to be hand made they are not going to be identical and it'll be more expensive for them in the long run. They also will produce far less product.

 

Not to mention that they would be reliant on these people. They are more or less handing their plushie market over to fans and those fans that they hired would put Hasbro at their mercy. They will refuse to work with Hasbro unless the contract agreement is entirely in their favor. Don't tell me they wouldn't and they would just be "happy to work with Hasbro", not when money is involved. When money gets involved it soon becomes "I want what I feel I'm entitled to" and considering they will know their product will be the highest demanded, they will want a lot and they will want the ability to take their product away from Hasbro if Hasbro ever pisses them off.

 

The reality of it is: Hasbro will never sign a deal with these people because they will demand so much that it would put Hasbro at their mercy. They are not going to do that because it's a headache and it's not worth the money.

I doubt that a animator who lives off donations would only sign a contract that only benefits him. Un employment is at a high right now, highering one or two fans makes you look good, works for the PR department. And putting out one "deluxe" plushy would not be handing them a market, it would be producing a product marketed towards them.

[LED Dasher 228]

I see some interesting perspectives here. There is an exception to copyright laws which is called "Fair Use."

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

 

Fair use is a limitation and exception to the exclusive right granted by copyright law to the author of a creative work. In United States copyright law, fair use is a doctrine that permits limited use of copyrighted material without acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary, search engines, criticism, parody, news reporting, research, teaching, library archiving and scholarship. It provides for the legal, unlicensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor balancing test.

 

 

We would have to determine whether Button Mash and Fighting is Magic would fall under "Fair Use." Assuming that the creators of "Button Mash" and "Fighting is Magic" did not hire lawyers to find this out, it is probably tricky to determine it.

[LordDiscord 289]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is not how it works. There is much more to it than "we made a fan made thing, it's free advertising" there is sooooo much more to it. Consider all the factors:

 

1. Although people like Jan Animations are making people know what MLP is, they are still attracting attention to themselves. They are getting their name known and they can turn around and make an original project now and everyone will pay for it because they know who they are. They used Hasbro's IP to get publicity if they try to do anything professional now. It's kind of unfair that Hasbro will not get a cut of any of that profit they make in the future either. There is no real such thing as "non-profit" in fan works if the person intends on being a professional at some point. There comes a point where them using Hasbro's IP has helped them gain a profit. If it were not for using Hasbro's IP, it would have made Jan Animations' ability to gain attention to their content significantly harder. They are using Hasbro's success to get attention, and it's a bit unfair to Hasbro, because if it were not for them, few people would know who Jan Animations are. Can you see how this unfair to Hasbro?

 

2. When you let people free advertise, you have no control over how they advertise. That's a dangerous move for a company. You don't want to hand over advertising to people who don't work for you because you have no idea if they will advertise the product how you would have wanted it advertised.

 

3. Copyright laws. Has anyone forgotten that Button Mash's video has a very close likeness to an NES in it? If Hasbro lets people advertise their product with stuff like that, they are just asking Nintendo to sue them.

 

4. Professionalism. Let's be honest: it's not seem as professional by other companies to let your fans do this kind of thing. If Hasbro tries to do business with other companies, allowing fans to take their product in such a way kind of will rub other companies the wrong way. It's not good for business relationships. Plus it's not generally regarded as professional to hire fans who ripped off your IP either. This can hurt business relationships with other companies.

 

If this is the case then why is there even a ''Fair Use Law'' to begin with? To me that would be pointless if the trademark law can always override it. Companies like Valve and Microsoft have proven that having a open relation ship with fans can increase your profit. Microsoft basically encourages fan works as long as they fall under ''Fair Use''. This is how the popular web series RedvsBlue was born, and it has only helped to advertise not only Halo but the Xbox as well. I can understand why the law is there and I respect the company for exercising it if they truly feel their IP is in danger, but something like ''Button Mash Adventures'' should fall under the ''Fair Use Law''.  

[Guest]

I doubt that a animator who lives off donations would only sign a contract that only benefits him. Un employment is at a high right now, highering one or two fans makes you look good, works for the PR department. And putting out one "deluxe" plushy would not be handing them a market, it would be producing a product marketed towards them.

Hiring fans does not make you look good to other companies, it makes you look unprofessional for hiring non-professionals who ripped off your IP.

 

Secondly, you clearly have no concept of business if you honestly think someone is going to see Hasbro selling their plushies and making millions of dollars and not expecting part of those millions in return. You seem to have this impression that fans would "just be happy to work for them at all", but that's not true. They would see it as "Hasbro makes millions off my product, I should get some of those millions." They would want to get as much out of it as possible. Money coming into play changes the mentalities really quick.