TheMarkz0ne 962 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 Just something quick, but something that can be elaborated on in quite detail. Whenever something unexplained occurs, we say people are "crazy" and that they're merely seeing things they want to see. Now I'm only here to defend these people. We live in a really abstract time. People cannot tell what to accept as facts. It seems humans have become so arrogant and conceited into thinking "Hey it's the 21st century, everything is mechanical, thus let's take it apart and we know everything." I know that this is an antiquated method of explaining phenomena that's not material. I have had my experiences. Will not bother to type them out since that's not the focus. I want to bring up an example. Dr Eben Alexander wrote his book 'Proof of Heaven'. The man used to be a hardcore mechanical neurologist and viewed people as just machines that need tuning. He had a Near death experience. He was clinically dead and witnessed metaphysical phenomena that cannot be explained with conventional science. It wasn't him hallucinating because he met family members in another realm that he had no awareness of. That alone destroys the 'chemical imbalance' garbage and DMT DMT DMT! Because all NDEs are unique. Many of the NDEs involve reacting to something that was once real in this world. Now is Eben Alexander happy that he made the new york times best seller? Obviously! Are scientist crying and moaning that he made more money than they did? You sure bet they are! Does his best selling book mean that NDE is a marketing ploy and that we need to discredit all of these experiences? No of course not. I'm tired of "they only are making money yada yada yada" You know fast food companies make billions giving you heart disease, diabetes, brain damage and all these severe illnesses? Why are we not grandstanding them and locking them away? Because you enjoy their garbage and they lobby politicians to keep their power intact. Everyone makes money and just because this guy made the best sellers doesn't mean he's a fraud. I think people today are just so quick to debunk everything for the sake of boredom and just can't accept the fact, that hey we don't know anything. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeric 46,851 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 With the relative erosion of the patronage system over the centuries, there is nothing wrong with wanting commercial success. I won't marginalize someone's views based on that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine 707 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 can't accept the fact, that hey we don't know anything. The reason we don't accept that is because it's not true. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMarkz0ne 962 May 12, 2014 Author Share May 12, 2014 (edited) The reason we don't accept that is because it's not true. Ok......Why? If you are that of a hardcore reductionist, then why do we love? Why do we display compassion and morality? Why are people experiencing things that are not materially explained and correlate to the real world? Every time you post something, it's so rushed, contrived and meaningless. I would respect your post if it had some flavor. Maybe its some chemical reaction that typed out a small sentence. Edited May 12, 2014 by TheMarkz0ne 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine 707 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 (edited) Ok......Why? If you are that of a hardcore reductionist, then why do we love? Why do we display compassion and morality? Why are people experiencing things that are not materially explained and correlate to the real world? Every time you post something, it's so rushed, contrived and meaningless. I would respect your post if it had some flavor. Maybe its some chemical reaction that typed out a small sentence. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yHRj_einNI&t=6m43s Another victory for Twilight! Pinkie P, put it on the board! Edited May 12, 2014 by Nine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMarkz0ne 962 May 12, 2014 Author Share May 12, 2014 www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yHRj_einNI&t=6m43s Another victory for Twilight! Pinkie P, put it on the board! ............... What did any of that have to do with the discussion at hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine 707 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 ............... What did any of that have to do with the discussion at hand? uhm cause it's like, almost word for word what you just said. You did watch it didn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMarkz0ne 962 May 12, 2014 Author Share May 12, 2014 uhm cause it's like, almost word for word what you just said. You did watch it didn't you? I'm at work. But you didn't give me any article. You didn't give me an insightful reasoning for why you believe what you believe. You cannot do that with conventional science. Using a cartoons and memes in an argument is doing something similar to that of a politician. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessper 735 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 (edited) I see nothing wrong with trying to / wanting to make money from whatever it is you do and I don't think it diminishes the value of your work either. If we could live for free and feast on mana falling down from the sky, it would be different, but then again, it is not the case. I think Alexander is slightly crazy and wrong not because of is paycheck, but because of his views. Edited May 12, 2014 by Jessper 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine 707 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 I'm at work. But you didn't give me any article. You didn't give me an insightful reasoning for why you believe what you believe. You cannot do that with conventional science. Using a cartoons and memes in an argument is doing something similar to that of a politician. The reason I don't engage you very deeply anymore is because you're one of the more irrational outliers I've ever met. I've elaborated on other things in the past, and what you consistently say in reply is mind-boggling. In your first post you say we can't accept the fact that we don't know anything, and of course I blow you off because we wouldn't be having this conversation via networked computers if we "didn't know anything". What do I really need to demonstrate? It's self-evident. And if you don't see it, there is *nothing* I could possibly say to you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMarkz0ne 962 May 12, 2014 Author Share May 12, 2014 (edited) The reason I don't engage you very deeply anymore is because you're one of the more irrational outliers I've ever met. I've elaborated on other things in the past, and what you consistently say in reply is mind-boggling. In your first post you say we can't accept the fact that we don't know anything, and of course I blow you off because we wouldn't be having this conversation via networked computers if we "didn't know anything". What do I really need to demonstrate? It's self-evident. And if you don't see it, there is *nothing* I could possibly say to you. That comment made no sense. Also I have no bias towards you in a negative view. If you are willing to open your mind and just be a healthy skeptic, that would be fine. Also we don't know everything. I will give you an example. Keep in mind.. This is a short summary, not an expoze. The universe is electric. Not inward gravity. Why is that? Because plasma cosmology is what NASA is pouring their money into these days. Theoretical physics and inward gravity is no longer useful. Matter doesn't matter. Because plasma cosmology accounts for 99.99% of what is observable and it's not based on the big bang and all that crap you were taught in school. I'm no plasma cosmologist. But these reputable and educated scientist deny the big bang like breathing. Are they idiots? No, funny seeing how NASA is feeding them money to bring forth a new science that actually works. Theoretical science, is theoretical. Science is partially not observable these days. Again, I'm not a plasma cosmologist. But I can read and logically conclude what these people are doing. I see nothing wrong with trying to / wanting to make money from whatever it is you do and I don't think it diminishes the value of your work either. If we could live for free and feast on mana falling down from the sky, it would be different, but then again, it is not the case. I think Alexander is slightly crazy and wrong not because of is paycheck, but because of his views. Well what is it that you view him for being crazy? Is it the evidence he brought forth? Or is it his quirky personality? Edited May 12, 2014 by TheMarkz0ne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine 707 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 That comment made no sense. Also I have no bias towards you in a negative view. If you are willing to open your mind and just be a healthy skeptic, that would be fine. Also we don't know everything. I will give you an example. Keep in mind.. This is a short summary, not an expoze. The universe is electric. Not inward gravity. Why is that? Because plasma cosmology is what NASA is pouring their money into these days. Theoretical physics and inward gravity is no longer useful. Matter doesn't matter. Because plasma cosmology accounts for 99.99% of what is observable and it's not based on the big bang and all that crap you were taught in school. I'm no plasma cosmologist. But these reputable and educated scientist deny the big bang like breathing. Are they idiots? No, funny seeing how NASA is feeding them money to bring forth a new science that actually works. Theoretical science, is theoretical. Science is partially not observable these days. Again, I'm not a plasma cosmologist. But I can read and logically conclude what these people are doing. Well what is it that you view him for being crazy? Is it the evidence he brought forth? Or is it his quirky personality? I'm not a plasma cosmologist either, so I'm not about to give an opinion on it. My sphere of interest is the fundamentals of knowledge and reason, and that's where our differences are. You seem to have a thing for unprovable ideas, and I don't. Someone has a near death experience and reports an account that's convincing. Maybe he's a good liar, maybe he really believes it's true but it isn't, or *maybe* it is true. It doesn't matter because there's no way to exclude the much more likely chance that the experience was a fluke (or a fraud). If I failed to make my position clear in the past, I'll restate it. I take an economic approach to information. I realize that 99% of all the information out there is trashy white noise, and the best approach is to focus on that which is universally observable, demonstrable, and repeatable. I also know that if you have enough people, space, and time put together, that patterns will emerge in the remaining 99% of the junk data just through chance. The test of a reasonable person is whether or not he chooses to follow that wild goose chase, or at least knows when to give up if he hits a dead end. I am not willing to seriously humor the ludicrous for very long, because why should I? If I have no meaningful reason to believe that chance, bias, fraud, or error couldn't have played a role in supposedly supernatural events, then I *do not* believe. That is what reason looks like. You either use it, or you don't. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMarkz0ne 962 May 12, 2014 Author Share May 12, 2014 I'm not a plasma cosmologist either, so I'm not about to give an opinion on it. My sphere of interest is the fundamentals of knowledge and reason, and that's where our differences are. You seem to have a thing for unprovable ideas, and I don't. Someone has a near death experience and reports an account that's convincing. Maybe he's a good liar, maybe he really believes it's true but it isn't, or *maybe* it is true. It doesn't matter because there's no way to exclude the much more likely chance that the experience was a fluke (or a fraud). If I failed to make my position clear in the past, I'll restate it. I take an economic approach to information. I realize that 99% of all the information out there is trashy white noise, and the best approach is to focus on that which is universally observable, demonstrable, and repeatable. I also know that if you have enough people, space, and time put together, that patterns will emerge in the remaining 99% of the junk data just through chance. The test of a reasonable person is whether or not he chooses to follow that wild goose chase, or at least knows when to give up if he hits a dead end. I am not willing to seriously humor the ludicrous for very long, because why should I? If I have no meaningful reason to believe that chance, bias, fraud, or error couldn't have played a role in supposedly supernatural events, then I *do not* believe. That is what reason looks like. You either use it, or you don't. You do realize economics are man made right? Money is just an excuse and a trap for people. Money isn't some force that dictates our behavior, the people who make money, do what they want with money. You sounded like you implied, people are commerce and information is commerce. That's like saying what we discussed can be profited off of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine 707 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 You do realize economics are man made right? Money is just an excuse and a trap for people. Money isn't some force that dictates our behavior, the people who make money, do what they want with money. You sounded like you implied, people are commerce and information is commerce. That's like saying what we discussed can be profited off of. The reason I don't engage you very deeply anymore is because you're one of the more irrational outliers I've ever met. I've elaborated on other things in the past, and what you consistently say in reply is mind-boggling. Yeah, see, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Economics is not man made. It's the name we give the study of how people manage limited resources. People exist, decisions are necessary, the resources are intrinsic to the world. If economics is man made, then so is every science that observes and catalogs data (ie. all of them). Secondly, and less essential to what we're discussing (but it does demonstrate the quality of my opponent), money is a tool of trade people use to move goods around without having to physically carry them everywhere. That's all. It's not an excuse or a trap. If it didn't exist, people would still need to work for the things they need or want, it would just make the system way less convenient and efficient without it. When people scapegoat money for problems that would exist with or without it, it's the surest sign I know of that someone doesn't have a clue. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 (edited) It's plain obvious to see whether people are (solely) in for the money or not. Take the current music and/or entertainment industry as an example. Edited May 12, 2014 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessper 735 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 (edited) Well what is it that you view him for being crazy? Is it the evidence he brought forth? Or is it his quirky personality? To clarify, what I meant was more of "crazy or wrong", rather than "crazy and wrong". Depending on whether he truly believes what he says or does it for money. Then again, as I said, I don't really see much wrong with that even if it were the case, doesn't change his message, so to speak. I think the book might get a lot of flame thanks to the name, but that might very well be the work of the publisher - you see why - the name will attract many people (sales) purely because of the name, there is a large group of people with inhuman thirst for any literature about "scientists turning to God". Anyway, as for the possible craziness - when you tell me that you talk with the "divine", you already make me doubt your sanity or sincerity. But when you are a neurologist, you should know better than to base anything on what your brain produces while in severely altered and stressed state, but Alexander seems to mostly disregard that in such an enthusiastic way it makes me doubt how rational he really is. Edited May 12, 2014 by Jessper 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
multifacetedbrony 88 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 I don't think there's a problem with people wanting to make money from something they do or experience or whatever - we live in a world where people need to pay the bills and surely it's better to make that money from something you want to spend time doing, rather than from something you don't like, if you are in a position to have that choice. I believe in some pretty weird stuff myself and to be honest though I've met a lot of skeptics I tend to be of the mind that no one else is living my life and no one else can debunk my experiences. I don't mean I'm not open to explanations of different things, I just mean that I don't really care if people don't believe some of my experiences. I'm not here (here being anywhere, not the forum specifically!) to try and argue or convince people of anything. I'm really happy to live and let live. So long as people don't hassle me and try to convince me I'm crazy, I'm not going to try and convince them to believe in things they're not comfortable with either. But yeah, tl;dr I do think people are often too quick to smack down anything outside their sphere of experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMarkz0ne 962 May 12, 2014 Author Share May 12, 2014 To clarify, what I meant was more of "crazy or wrong", rather than "crazy and wrong". Depending on whether he truly believes what he says or does it for money. Then again, as I said, I don't really see much wrong with that even if it were the case, doesn't change his message, so to speak. I think the book might get a lot of flame thanks to the name, but that might very well be the work of the publisher - you see why - the name will attract many people (sales) purely because of the name, there is a large group of people with inhuman thirst for any literature about "scientists turning to God". Anyway, as for the possible craziness - when you tell me that you talk with the "divine", you already make me doubt your sanity or sincerity. But when you are a neurologist, you should know better than to base anything on what your brain produces while in severely altered and stressed state, but Alexander seems to mostly disregard that in such an enthusiastic way it makes me doubt how rational he really is. You really aren't your brain. I have witness testimony of it. But chemicals in the brain don't cause a metaphysical manifestation that correlates to the real world. His "hallucinations" were verified in documented reality, in regards to family he never met. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessper 735 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 You really aren't your brain. I have witness testimony of it. I'm not sure what you mean mean by "You aren't your brain" and even less sure what testimony you can have about that. But chemicals in the brain don't cause a metaphysical manifestation that correlates to the real world. His "hallucinations" were verified in documented reality, in regards to family he never met. Problem is there are thousands of those claims. Seeing things inside a cabinet while on the operating table, knowing a family in country you've never been to, remembering a relative that died before you were born and many more. All share the part about being hard/impossible to truly verify, duplicate and in addition "divine revelation" is not exactly the most viable or logical explanation for almost anything. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megas 27,675 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 (edited) There's nothing wrong with wanting to make money just as long as they put the consumers into consideration(as they should always) and actually give a shit about what you're selling, because people can tell when something is a blatantly shallow cash-in Edited May 12, 2014 by Megas75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adorkable 2,737 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 (edited) Yes! I've never liked this comment, and always do my best to defend Hasbro when able. I believe Hasbro is different from other companies, they care about and listen to their fans. That's how Derpy has received so much spotlight, and Vinyl Scratch got an Equestria Girls short! ^^ Edited May 12, 2014 by Adorkable 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMarkz0ne 962 May 12, 2014 Author Share May 12, 2014 I'm not sure what you mean mean by "You aren't your brain" and even less sure what testimony you can have about that. Problem is there are thousands of those claims. Seeing things inside a cabinet while on the operating table, knowing a family in country you've never been to, remembering a relative that died before you were born and many more. All share the part about being hard/impossible to truly verify, duplicate and in addition "divine revelation" is not exactly the most viable or logical explanation for almost anything. Well get a new way to measure logic. Because this world operates on "If we cannot explain it, it doesn't exist!" You can google people how they were able to control their brain. It proves you're not a genetic and neuron slave. You have a free will and if you find your center, you can take control of your life. I was put on psych meds for a short period of time. There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance. it has never been proven. It's only used to sell psych meds and it worked, since those companies which are hurting people, turned over a trillion dollar profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessper 735 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 (edited) Well get a new way to measure logic. Because this world operates on "If we cannot explain it, it doesn't exist!" You can google people how they were able to control their brain. It proves you're not a genetic and neuron slave. You have a free will and if you find your center, you can take control of your life. I was put on psych meds for a short period of time. There is no such thing as a chemical imbalance. it has never been proven. It's only used to sell psych meds and it worked, since those companies which are hurting people, turned over a trillion dollar profit. If we cannot explain something, it means we cannot explain something. Period. Nothing to do with existence. Not to mention NDEs are rather well documented and explained. And yeah, counciousness is not a product of brain, chemical (hormonal) imbalance in brains doesn't exist, meds are a conspiracy and you have to find out your center. Ehm. *cough* I think I'm going to be backing slowly towards the door now, because I there is no reason to get things heated as you would not like what I have to say about this, let's say, new-age-religious "movement". Edited May 12, 2014 by Jessper 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMarkz0ne 962 May 12, 2014 Author Share May 12, 2014 If we cannot explain something, it means we cannot explain something. Period. Nothing to do with existence. Not to mention NDEs are rather well documented and explained. And yeah, counciousness is not a product of brain, chemical (hormonal) imbalance in brains doesn't exist, meds are a conspiracy and you have to find out your center. Ehm. *cough* I think I'm going to be backing slowly towards the door now, because I there is no reason to get things heated as you would not like what I have to say about this, let's say, new-age-religious "movement". I find it funny you're going to slap me as a new ager. I was on meds and it was ruining my health. It has also killed people and no families were compensated for their losses. So as far as I'm concerned, I don't listen to mainstream science. Hasn't helped the world at all. people are getting sicker and willingly are to ignorant to think for themselves. You have no clue, the crimes that the psych mobsters commit daily on people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine 707 May 12, 2014 Share May 12, 2014 You have no clue, the crimes that the psych mobsters commit daily on people. The "psych mobsters"? Hmm, didn't have you pegged as a shill for the Church of Scientology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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