Why Are Bronies Disliked?

[Simon 4,557]

 

 

We shouldn't hate people for being racist...?

So uh, yeah actually you sort of did say we should hate people for being racist.

 

 

 

Nor does it mean that we can not ostracize them and not welcome them in places for beliefs that are hateful, discriminatory and ignorant as you can possibly get.

So uh, yeah you did say to exclude them from places for being racist. (Ostracize, by definition, means to exclude a person from a society or group.)

 

 

So you had no reason to argue against them in the first place? If you were going to tolerate my beliefs, why did you just spend the past few minutes trying to tell me they were wrong? That's not tolerating, that's trying to persuade me into following your beliefs.

 

 

No actually it's called telling you what my beliefs are.  That's called a discussion.  There's a big difference from me saying that you're ignorant and should be thrown off the forum because I don't agree with you, and telling you that I think you should rethink your beliefs.  You want to tell someone that being racist is ignorant?  Be my guest, you got my blessing.  You want to tell a person to get out of the fandom because of their beliefs? You better believe I'll have a problem with that.

[LordDiscord 289]

It's declining in popularity thankfully.

 

Now if we could start actually chastising people for doing things that are stupid, we'd be off to a nice start.

 

 

 

 

I used to think that a lot of that was the minority... But now I'm not so convinced... I used to say that "you need to prove to me that they are not the majority", but now since I see it so often without even trying... I am more under the impression of "someone better actually prove they are the minority."

 

I mean if I recall, there was over 20,000 signatures to change the national anthem to the MLP theme... That's quite a big number... I mean granted there is probably over a few million bronies, but 20,000 does start to make one think.

 

According to this recent look at Rule 34: over 35,000 images for MLP have been submitted, making it the third most tagged thing on the site. However it is the first most searched thing according to Google results. Do you realize that Pokemon has over twice the images for MLP, yet it is not searched as much? That kind of paints a picture to me. What evidence do we actually have that these people do not make up the minority?

 

There is starting to come up more and more evidence that these people might not actually be the minority.

If it makes you feel any better I already do chastise bronies that bleed into other videos about discussing the MLP on a video un-related to MLP. My problem though is that chastising has the potential to cause a flame war to break out and what normally might not have been a problem, could easily become one if a debate was to continue on and on in the videos comment section, essentially over-riding the other comments. Which I feel to be worse than the original comment. 

[Guest]

 

 

So uh, yeah actually you sort of did say we should hate people for being racist.

 

Okay my wording there was poor, I'll give you that.

 

 

 

So uh, yeah you did say to exclude them from places for being racist. (Ostracize, by definition, means to exclude a person from a society or group.)

 

As I said before. What I mean by this is that if you come into my store making racist remarks to my customer, I can kick you out and I should kick you out. My wording on the quoted here is a bit ambiguous, I apologize, I should have been more specific.

 

 

 

You want to tell a person to get out of the fandom because of their beliefs? You better believe I'll have a problem with that.

 

Actually I was never suggesting that.

 

I stated I think the best solution was not giving a shit and ignoring the hatred. I stated that if they don't want to ignore the hatred and want to get rid of it, that is what they must do. Otherwise they need to shut up.

 

Essentially I am saying you have two options:

 

1. Ignore the hatred and continue on with what you're doing (which I would suggest).

2. Taking the steps mentioned to try and improve the fandom (which I do not suggest, however if you wanted to do it, that's how you would need to pull it off).

 

I don't give a damn if bronies are known as nothing but cloppers, because I am not one. I am merely stating if you want to erase the stigma, you have to make a change. However I advocate not caring because it's the best solution, requires no change, and really the secondary reason people make fun of bronies is because they react. Not caring would at least get rid of some of the hate. 

[Simon 4,557]

I agree that some bronies can get out of hand with trying to "spread" bronyism like they have some sort of divine duty to recruit people to the brony way of life.  That being said, I also wouldn't go so far as to say that you have to keep it to yourself and not mention it to anybody else.  I think there's a happy balance.  For me, I have no problem with mentioning ponies somewhere not pony related, but it has to be for an actual reason.  Going on a site and trying to convert people is ridiculous, but there's nothing wrong with mentioning ponies to friends, or comment on something that has a connection to ponies.  For example, I think it would be perfectly fine to go on a Star Trek video about Q and mention that you like the connection between Q and Discord.  On the other hand, talking about how everybody watching that video should watch S2E1 cause if they like Q they'll like Discord and they can be bronies and blah blah blah is when it gets out of hand...

[Casey 9]

Society. Because we are expected to do everything as they and how they wanted.

 

Guys are expected to do masculine things as girls as expected to do feminine type deals. Not that I agree with those expectations, but that's what everyone else wants the norms to be.

 

There could be billions of reasons onto why the bronies are disliked, but it all leads to one main source; it's a subculture.

 

Because it's different and seen as a show for minors. That's as accurate as I can go.

[Guest]

 

 

I agree that some bronies can get out of hand with trying to "spread" bronyism like they have some sort of divine duty to recruit people to the brony way of life.

 

We agree on the problem them.

 

 

 

That being said, I also wouldn't go so far as to say that you have to keep it to yourself and not mention it to anybody else.

 

I agree as well. When it's relevant it can be discussed. However don't walk into a conversation about "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream" and relate it to ponies.

 

 

 

Going on a site and trying to convert people is ridiculous,

 

And we should be discouraging this behavior. See, you can't be tolerant of everything. People assume "intolerance" is a bad word, but not always. We are very "intolerant" to murder, but that doesn't mean we are being mean to murderers, we are just not approving of behavior that is bad.

[Simon 4,557]

@, Actually I think it sounds like we agree on more than we disagree, and there was a massive breakdown in understanding between us.  That being said, that's why I'm such a big advocate of the love and tolerance idea... I think that a lot of disputes can be resolved and if you resort to extremes, you lose that ability to maybe figure out where the misunderstanding started.

 

On the subject of clopping though, while I agree that in practicality we'll never get rid of the negative stigma of cloppers, that doesn't mean that I agree with the actions of people outside the fandom that constantly remind people of that stigma.  I mean, with the Howard Stern incident, he actually sent a reporter to bronycon which is a safe haven for bronies, and asked them about clopping, just so that he could cut the responses apart and play recordings of bronies making it sound like being a brony means being a clopper.  That's the kind of thing that really upsets me, because it's not that Howard Stern actually thinks that, it's that he manipulated the facts to make the public believe it to bolster his own ratings.  

[Strings 3]

In answer to the question "Why are bronies disliked?" (since I haven't given my two cents)

 

1.The obvious, some bronies will try and shove ponies into everything. Every conversation, every comment thread, everything. Even if it's about as related as a camel and Neil Armstrong's space suit.

 

2.Bronies tend to whine. A lot. And no, not all bronies do this, but I've seen it a lot. Such as the reaction to equestria girls, reaction to Vinyl's eye colour, e.t.c.

 

3.Bronies will sometimes refuse to accept anything that has been deemed out of the general fan-cannon. Examples are people always associating Vinyl with dubstep, Equestria daily have been known to decline stories that move away from fan-canon, and how fans pushed and pushed to get Heartstrings' name changed to "Lyra".

 

4.Another obvious one, Rule 34. I know it happens with everything (heck, it's in the rule's description) but the sheer amount of it, and the sheer amount of strange artwork and stories involving rule 34, and at times rather creepy rule 34 is shockingly large. Not going to go into details, but you can probably guess what I mean.

[Guest]

 

 

I think that a lot of disputes can be resolved and if you resort to extremes, you lose that ability to maybe figure out where the misunderstanding started.

 

But that was what I was saying with the decline of racism. It was not stopped by being tolerant, it was declined by being intolerant and using extreme measures. Passing laws, court cases, civil rights movements, protests. People didn't stop being as racist because they realized they were allowed to be racist, they stopped because more and more of their practices became disallowed. If anything, that's an example of how sometimes being intolerant can achieve positive results. I am not saying we should treat people less than human, but we should not be shy to tell people they are behaving in an absolutely deplorable way.

 

 

 

That's the kind of thing that really upsets me, because it's not that Howard Stern actually thinks that, it's that he manipulated the facts to make the public believe it to bolster his own ratings.

 

 

Sensationalists do this though because bronies react. Reaction is what gets him ratings, and my whole point is that bronies want it both ways. They want people not to make bad comments about bronies, but they also want to not have to do anything. It's a matter of people like Howard Stern wouldn't do crap like this is bronies didn't react, because it would not generate attention. It's a matter of you can either not react, or try to fix the stuff that is being criticized.

 

That is the issue. Bronies want to be able to react, but not do anything to fix the things being criticized.

 

You can't have it both ways, this isn't a perfect world, so you have to pick which you want.

[Simon 4,557]

I think we're operating on two different definitions of intolerance here.  To me, tolerance doesn't mean blindly allowing people to do whatever they want.  It means not prejudging a person and taking an action based on something you assume they will do because of their beliefs. 

 

Let me give an example.  If someone joined the forum right now and posted an intro post which in part talked about how they're a member of the KKK and talked about a couple of their beliefs, we might think that person is going to cause trouble and that banning them outright will prevent any trouble from happening.  That being said, I think that is intolerant.  There's a strong chance that they will just be a great member of the community and never attack anybody personally.

 

Then again, if that person was allowed to remain in the community, and down the road they started insulting people for their race outright saying things like "You're X race, so your opinion doesn't matter to me."  Then I think there's nothing intolerant about applying the rules that apply to everybody else for harassing other members and banning them.

 

In the same way, the protests and court cases you mention weren't about ostracizing people for being racist.  They were about changing society as a whole's views on racism.  Brown v. Board had nothing to do with telling people they couldn't be racist, it was about making it so that everybody could go to the same schools and use the same water fountains.  From there, being exposed to those people in actual day to day interactions helped to make people understand that racism was wrong.  That's what moved us past racism.  Not intolerance, but literally by exposing them to the people that they hated so they could see that they didn't fit into their preconceptions.

 

When you prejudge a people, whether for a race or for being racist, it's not going to solve anything.  When you judge a person based on their actual actions or punish them for things they actually did, there's nothing, in my mind, that's intolerant about that.

 

Anyway I think we're getting quite a bit off topic so I'm going to leave that subject alone now. 

 

 

2.Bronies tend to whine. A lot. And no, not all bronies do this, but I've seen it a lot. Such as the reaction to equestria girls, reaction to Vinyl's eye colour, e.t.c.

 

 

I agree with this, but I don't think it necessarily has to do why people outside the fandom hate bronies.  I think you'd have to get into the fandom to ever really realize they were whining or what they were whining about.  The only time this could ever really be something people outside the fandom are exposed to is if the bronies are doing it on random non-pony sites, in which case it more of goes back to the whole thing about them talking about ponies everywhere randomly.

[Strings 3]

 

 

 

 

I agree with this, but I don't think it necessarily has to do why people outside the fandom hate bronies. I think you'd have to get into the fandom to ever really realize they were whining or what they were whining about. The only time this could ever really be something people outside the fandom are exposed to is if the bronies are doing it on random non-pony sites, in which case it more of goes back to the whole thing about them talking about ponies everywhere randomly.

 

True, but such a thing can drive people away from the fandom, causing them to dislike bronies. Plus, word on the internet, rants, etc, tends to spread surprisingly far.

[Dani_uwu 211]

Because narrow minded people judge you without walking in your shoes. They just can't stand that we are awesome!

[Guest]

 

 

That being said, I think that is intolerant.  There's a strong chance that they will just be a great member of the community and never attack anybody personally.

 

I think that we should ban them if they ever try to spread such hateful beliefs.

 

 

 

In the same way, the protests and court cases you mention weren't about ostracizing people for being racist.

 

 

They were about changing society as a whole's views on racism.

 

 

Which they accomplished by punishing racism and making people think being racist was bad (which it is), that's ostracizing. :I

 

 

 

Brown v. Board had nothing to do with telling people they couldn't be racist, it was about making it so that everybody could go to the same schools and use the same water fountains.

 

It was ruling that the racist action of segregation was morally wrong and unconstitutional. Once again, telling society that racism is wrong.

 

 

 

From there, being exposed to those people in actual day to day interactions helped to make people understand that racism was wrong.

 

Which they wouldn't have done unless we got rid of segregation. :I

 

 

 

Not intolerance, but literally by exposing them to the people that they hated so they could see that they didn't fit into their preconceptions.

 

Which is intolerance. Trying to convince group A that group B is not to be had. It's just that your definition of the word "intolerance" is that the word itself can only be used for "bad" things. In this case intolerance was a good thing. The word itself just has a stigma because it's commonly used to describe bigoted behavior. However we should not allow bigoted behavior to bastardize the English language.

 

 

 

When you prejudge a people, whether for a race or for being racist,

 

 

But judging someone for racism isn't prejudging them, it's judging them based upon their core belief. There is no real way to slice being racist to where it's not morally wrong, so if you are racist, there is no doubt that you are bigoted. That's the point of racism. Pre-judging is if I didn't know what racism was, but I was judging it.

 

 

 

it's not going to solve anything

 

Do you realize when you say the statement "racism is bad", that's judging? Good or bad is judgment. You can't say anything is good or bad without judging it. People want to believe there is a world without judgment waiting for us, but we need judgment, otherwise everything is good and everything is bad. Nothing is graded or deemed. I judge your abilities to perform surgery based upon your medical test scores. I wouldn't want someone who has poor abilities to perform heart surgery, would I?

 

 

 

When you judge a person based on their actual actions or punish them for things they actually did, there's nothing, in my mind, that's intolerant about that.

 

That is technically being intolerant. You're not tolerating their actions. However that is not a bad thing. In that case intolerance is a good thing. That's the point I am making. Tolerance means we're putting up with it. If we punish you for committing a crime, we're not putting up with it. 

[Dani_uwu 211]

So I used to think that my Brony friend was gay......... But then I took friendship to the knee ( turns out he is gay so....)

[Guest]

The problem is that our society has made certain words "bad" when those words could be used to describe good things.

 

"Prejudice". I can be "prejudice" against murderers. Am I wrong to not like people because they are murderers?

"Intolerance". I can be "intolerant" to people making racist remarks in my store. Does that mean I am an asshole for not wanting people to do that in my store?

"Hate". I can "hate" when people hurt people. Am I incorrect to feel such a thing?

"Judge". I can "judge" that if you score a 12 out of 100 on your medical exam, you are not ready to be a doctor yet. Does that mean I have denied someone who deserves the job?

[Simon 4,557]

Like I said I'm not going to keep replying because it's getting way off topic.

 

That being said the law school grad in me can't help but respond to this:

 

 

It was ruling that the racist action of segregation was morally wrong and unconstitutional. Once again, telling society that racism is wrong.

 

Er, no it didn't at all.  The actual decision in the case was that it was that separate educational facilities based on race were inherently unequal, and thus they weren't abiding by the "separate but equal" rule of law.  And I think you're confusing the issue here... it wasn't about being intolerant towards people who were racist, but about removing the intolerance towards races that already existed.  Again, we might just be operating on different definitions of intolerance here, but Brown v. Board in the most literal sense possible spread love and tolerance.  It wasn't saying that racist people can't be racist, it was saying that races won't be treated unequally by the government.  That's a big difference.

 

Anyway I really really really am not replying on the race and tolerance subject again cause it's not fair to the people here who want to discuss the actual topic of this thread which is why people hate bronies.

[Dani_uwu 211]

I have seen my fair share of mlp porn and I've stopped that habit. (As for going to r34.......still need to brake that one) I like the violent fanfics because I'm a sadist and hate them because of the emotional ties to the characters.

[Guest]

 

 

Again, we might just be operating on different definitions of intolerance here,

 

Clearly so, as we're both saying the same thing but disputing one word.

 

 

 

but Brown v. Board in the most literal sense possible spread love and tolerance.

 

Telling people to not be intolerant towards other races is not being tolerant though. I know it's ironic, and this is why you are disputing it, but tolerance means you are putting up with it. If you are trying to remove it, you aren't putting up with it.

 

 

 

It wasn't saying that racist people can't be racist, it was saying that races won't be treated unequally by the government.

 

Which is the government not tolerating racism in this particular issue. The government is saying "we are not going to tolerate you treating people lesser in this regard" that's being intolerant. X_X

 

You are assuming that intolerance = bigotry, when it does not. I understand you're a law school graduate, but in this particular instance, you're disputing the meaning of a word and I have to tell you that you're not correct.

[Dani_uwu 211]

Oh oh! Because haters gonna hate

[Mio Akiyama 145]

For non-geeks and such, people don't like all the fandoms and will bully anyone from the fandoms.

For geek culture and other fandoms, honestly speaking, we are annoying.

- We ponify everything.

- A lot of us usually talk about MLP at least 3/4 of the time(well, not really. Just the bronies I've met).

- Bronies are one of the most butthurt fandoms.

- Some people don't like us just because we are everywhere. Kinda like why some people hate homestuck fans.

- A lot of us claim that MLP is the greatest thing ever since sliced bread.

- A lot of bronies will hate people just because they say MLP isn't that good.

- We overreact to almost ANYTHING that has to do with MLP or the community.

- We blatantly show that we are bronies and expect people to not get annoyed by it.

 

I don't hate the fandom but I don't love it either. Usually the fandom makes me say "Wow, really?"

Edited January 21, 2014 by The Spineless Crow

[Simon 4,557]

 

 

I have seen my fair share of mlp porn and I've stopped that habit. (As for going to r34.......still need to brake that one) I like the violent fanfics because I'm a sadist and hate them because of the emotional ties to the characters.

 It's all us fluttershy people who are sadists? xD

 

I wouldn't call myself a sadist, but I have to admit that I love sad and depressing stories, so I really do tend to enjoy some stories that most people would find horrible xD

[Guest]

Definition:

 

Tolerate: showing willingness to allow the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with.

 

This is the dictionary definition.

 

When you do things that do not allow behaviors, you are not tolerating them. Simple as that. You are under the impression that that is a "bad" thing, so you don't want to accept that the word "intolerance" is appropriate to use in these situations because of the stigma attached to the world.

[Dani_uwu 211]

It's all us fluttershy people who are sadists? xD

 

 

Well I have some mental issues according to my psychologist. MLP has helped me with this though it is like an anti depressant.

For non-geeks and such, people don't like all the fandoms and will bully anyone from the fandoms.

For geek culture and other fandoms, honestly speaking, we are annoying.

- We ponify everything.

- A lot of us usually talk about MLP at least 3/4 of the time(well, not really. Just the bronies I've met).

- Bronies are one of the most butthurt fandoms.

- Some people don't like us just because we are everywhere. Kinda like why some people hate homestuck fans.

- A lot of us claim that MLP is the greatest thing ever since sliced bread.

- A lot of bronies will hate people just because they say MLP isn't that good.

- We overreact to almost ANYTHING that has to do with MLP or the community.

- We blatantly show that we are bronies and expect people to not get annoyed by it.

I don't hate the fandom but I don't love it either. Usually the fandom makes me say "Wow, really?"

 

The reason I talk about it so much is 'cause it's awesome!

[Shanks 10,816]

Sadly in this world, having rules and restrictions is the only way to garner respect. If bronies want to have an open fandom where all are able to join free of any sort of criticism, then they can have that, but if they want a fandom that will be respected far more than it is, they can have that.

But who decides exactly what "rules" the brony community should have when bronies themselves can't even agree on what the "rules" should be? Insisting that there should be "rules" makes the brony fandom sound like a big circle jerk and I don't like being a part of a circle jerk. People have different opinions about different things and that is not a bad thing because we can accept differences through mutual respect. It dosen't mean everyone will at all times but I hate to break it to you but nobody is perfect and if you expect everyone to be perfect at all times than all you are going to see is the negative. You are not the final judge and jury of everything that can and cannot be said and the sooner you deal with that the happier you are going to be.

 

 

They can't have both. You can't create a group with no restrictions, no criticism and no threshold of quality and expect it not to quickly devolve. There is a reason why other fandoms are not as bad as this one, it's because criticism is not discouraged. People are encouraged to moderate each other and say "hey, dude you're acting really stupid right now", when people are legitimately behaving in a deplorable manner.

And even if these restrictions were justified exactly how would they be enforced? And who would decide on and enforce them in the first place? What you are saying simply has no basis whatsoever in reality. No fandom has a uniform code of conduct in which all members behave perfectly at all times lest they be booted out, how the hell would you go about booting someone out of fandom anyway? And alot of people that are acting innapropriately are trolls and troll like attention and there is nothing that annoys a troll more than to not give take their bait and give them the attention they crave. It is simply none of our place to act as judge and jury as the entire fandom, if someone is acting innapropriately than ignore them and move on and if it is on here or another site than report them and move on and if that dosen't work than leave that site and go somewhere else.

 

 

Bronies need to decide what they want: an open fandom where everything is tolerated, or a fandom that is respected. You aren't getting both, this isn't a perfect world.

I want a fandom that is not some circle jerk where people try to cram their views down other peoples throats instead of actually bothering to listen to them.

 

 

 

It doesn't have to be fair. You aren't going to suddenly get people to judge people fairly, so it might be smarter to shoot for more realistic goals. There has never been a time in history where the entire world and every person in it judged everyone else fairly.

Maybe not but that dosen't mean we have to play their games, if people don't want to judge fairly then fuck them. The best we can is try to respect one another including non fans and trying not to take the haters and trolls bait. Granted not everyone is going to do that but that dosen't mean we have to get cynical and go "oh well not everyone is doing that so it dosen't even matter."

 

 

Scapegoating implies they are innocent for the problem. Since we know that "anti-bronies" often use cloppers and porn to justify their hate, we know they are the problem in terms of image. Secondly, these people have been given too much of a free pass, and I think you're trying to not accept that. Cloppers and porn artists have been given so much of a free pass that it's considered "intolerant" to not want that stuff by many.

And why should we care about "image"? Honestly if people want to walk on eggshells so other people won't talk bad about them than be my guest but I am not playing that game. I am a little something called an individual and I am who I am and if someone dosen't like it than that it sucks to be them. Some people are going to see what they want to see and if they want to see negative than there is nothing I or anyone else can do to persuade them.

 

 

People are literally telling me at times that when I say I don't like pony porn that I am "putting down" cloppers by not associating myself with them. It's reaching levels where you are almost "required" to associate with them or you are not being "tolerant".

No, you are putting them down by claiming it is they are part of the problem instead of just accepting that while there are some bad apples among them that with the exception of what they do in private are no different than any other brony. You don't have to associate with them if you don't want to as there is nothing wrong with not associating with people you don't like or are uncomfortable with but it is to demonize and scapegoate people for what they do in private.

 

 

 

Who told you that? I have every right to judge people based upon what they like.

Yes and I have every right to fart in a crowded elevator but that dosen't mean I should do it. There are plenty of things that you do have a right to do but that dosen't always mean you should. I am not advocating for censorship here but I think a little more respect and common courtesy is in order.

 

 

You speak against unfair judgement, yet you have ruled that a lot of these judgments come from insecurities about sexuality? Isn't that hypocritical?

No because in most cases they are, I am not saying you are one but the more I see people endlessly obsessing over it the more I am convinced that half of them are closeted cloppers. What is with this obsession anti cloppers have? They talk about clopping more than most cloppers do.

 

 

I don't care about what you do with your wee-wee, but that doesn't mean I can't find it sick.

If you don't than why harp on it so much? If you focused more on your own you are probably going to be a lot happier. There are fetishes I find a little gross too but I don't harp on them endlessly or judge others for them because so long as it is consenting adults than whether or not you I or anyone else approves of it is irrelvent because it is nobody elses business.

 

I think I have made my point for a good while so I think I am done here for a good while.

[SBaby 660]

What you have to understand is this.  A lot of people we would call haters are in denial, and actually like FiM.  I know that's hard to understand when it's being attacked by these people, but let me try to explain how they think.

 

More than half of all haters in existence (well over half) have an inborn fascination or liking for what they claim to hate.  So they search for it and attack it as a defense mechanism.  Essentially, it's similar to how a little girl might knock a little boy down, because she likes him.  She won't admit it and it might make the boy angry or upset, but the reason she does it is to be near the boy in question.  There was a very well done episode of Rugrats that actually addressed this issue, and was remarkably clever about it.

 

So when it comes to haters in regard to FiM, most of the time they will seek out pony material and bash it (often on youtube or a message board, where the general public will see their posts), because in their mindset, it's the only way they can be near the material, without having to truly face the idea that they might like it.  They'll always claim that they weren't looking for it, and just happened upon it (even though they amazingly clicked on hundreds of videos, and search engines nowadays can easily filter it out).  I know this from personal experience, meaning I've actually met people that started out this way, on several occasions with various things (Sailor Moon in particular was one such show this happened with alot, and that was before we had access to the Internet).

 

So I don't really worry about haters, or people that claim not to be bronies.  I look at them more as future-bronies.  One thing about the people I described above, they almost always end up becoming fans of what they hate on.  So my advice to anyone that is mad at the haters, wait awhile.

Edited January 22, 2014 by SBaby