What's your opinion on fighting, violence, and lasers in FiM?

[Steel Accord 6,660]

If we want to get technical, violence has yet to have solved any problem in MLP, it's always the Deus ex Machina of the season. And the use of violence usually isn't the moral of the episode, and by usually I mean not once (the closest they come to is "be assertive I guess" in the Fluttershy episode where she's mean I forgot the name).

 

Putting your hoof down

 

Your exactly right though. In fact, that episode actually defies such a message. Not only does Fluttershy not get physical with Iron Will, she doesn't even yell or get angry with him. The ultimate triumph of Fluttershy's character was that she didn't have to be mean or get angry in order to make it clear she wasn't going to be taken advantage of.

 

Brilliantly, this is contrasted with Iron Will himself, who seems about ready to pummel Fluttershy.

 

Notice that even during the action sequences, Fluttershy never actually hurts anything? She dodges and misleads, but never throws a blow.

 

Fluttershy is one of the first examples I've seen of a pacifist character done perfectly right and I love her all the more for it.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Steel Accord

[Tilt 286]

I ain't wrong, you are just being critical of what you perceive violence as. Blasting your sibling to the moon is violent, Sombra blowing up is violent, Changelings being blasted off is violent. I don't understand how you don't include these as being violent just because they didn't intend when really they are.

 

By your theory me storming a place with a gun and then accidentally shooting someone isn't violent. Just because it wasn't my intention doesn't make it any less violent, with that I'm done with this thread.

[Steel Accord 6,660]

I ain't wrong, you are just being critical of what you perceive violence as. Blasting your sibling to the moon is violent, Sombra blowing up is violent, Changelings being blasted off is violent. I don't understand how you don't include these as being violent just because they didn't intend when really they are.

 

By your theory me storming a place with a gun and then accidentally shooting someone isn't violent. Just because it wasn't my intention doesn't make it any less violent, with that I'm done with this thread.

 

All right, I'm fully on your side of this debate, but there is no need to become angry at Dulcet for being obtuse. (Intentionally or otherwise.)

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Well, there's two ways one can interpret it. One is violence where the means are fantastical, and one is violence where the result is fantastical.

 

Casting a spell that knocks someone into a wall? The former. Shooting someone in the head with a revolver and them getting up and complaining about it? The latter.

Huh, so if you use the empire's magical artifact to cheer everyone up, and someone just happens to explode, which one does that count as...?

 

 

I believe you said it didn't count because they didn't intend to blow up Sombra.  

 

In these situations however, they did intend to turn discord into stone, and they did intend to get rid of the changelings by bashing them with a wall of magical energy.

The elements don't hurt anyone, ever. And repelling changelings isn't violent. This is getting way too semantical again.

 

 

To clarify, much of what you say sounds rather critical of the decisions made of the Mane Six when forced to defend themselves. As if they've become worse than those they fight.

 

You can see why most of us would take issue with that stance.

I agree. My point is the Mane Six face many different kinds of problems, and yet they are always equipped to handle them. Combat is just one more type of problem they can deal with.

This just comes across as silly when you actually look at how they handle monsters in the first two seasons. I don't mean to just dismiss you, but really those seasons make it absolutely clear that they solve problems without violence.

 

 

From what I can understand, you (OP) are getting at the idea that violence in MLP being posed as a solution as opposed to a horrid idea is not a good direction for the show.

If we want to get technical, violence has yet to have solved any problem in MLP, it's always the Deus ex Machina of the season. And the use of violence usually isn't the moral of the episode, and by usually I mean not once (the closest they come to is "be assertive I guess" in the Fluttershy episode where she's mean I forgot the name). Besides, even if you look at the use of violence as some sort of impression, but violence is never proposed as the solution to be jumped to, but when there's not much else you can do it's an option, sometimes your only one.

Again though, I don't really see what you're getting at. So, I'm just going to ask, is this violence bad to you?

I wouldn't say "it's bad". I'd just say that the trend for violence to be used to fix things is just one more example of something I valued as special about the show being degraded and forgotten as it becomes yet another cookie cutter children's cartoon.

 

 

Putting your hoof down

 

Your exactly right though. In fact, that episode actually defies such a message. Not only does Fluttershy not get physical with Iron Will, she doesn't even yell or get angry with him. The ultimate triumph of Fluttershy's character was that she didn't have to be mean or get angry in order to make it clear she wasn't going to be taken advantage of.

 

Brilliantly, this is contrasted with Iron Will himself, who seems about ready to pummel Fluttershy.

 

Notice that even during the action sequences, Fluttershy never actually hurts anything? She dodges and misleads, but never throws a blow.

 

Fluttershy is one of the first examples I've seen of a pacifist character done perfectly right and I love her all the more for it.

Hey now, Iron Will was a legitimate, honest, and rational businessman. He was kind of greedy and misguided, but he only threatened Fluttershy when she implied she was cheating him out of his hard earned money. Once she explained the situation, he completely backed down. That was part of the moral, that he appears to be a threatening huckster, but when approached in a straightforward and assertive manner (unlike what Rarity and Pinkie tried to do by deceiving him) he was actually willing to do exactly as he promised.

Aaand with that I'm going to bed. Haven't even gotten to touch on the problems with lasers yet, so I'll get to that tomorrow!

[Cleverclover 1,526]

 

 

Besides how else could Twilight have battled Tirek?

 

 

I'll tell you how. She could have received her key on the same standards that the rest of the mane six did (making a mistake, learning a lesson, and inspiring someone) and then opened up that chest, got Rainbow Powered up and took care of business standing alongside her friends. 

 

That could have easily worked, but unfortunately, the mane five were not allowed to intrude upon Twilight's solo moment of heroism. 

[Misty Rose 3,216]

 

 

I'll tell you how. She could have received her key on the same standards that the rest of the mane six did (making a mistake, learning a lesson, and inspiring someone) and then opened up that chest, got Rainbow Powered up and took care of business standing alongside her friends.

 

That could have easily worked, but unfortunately, the mane five were not allowed to intrude upon Twilight's solo moment of heroism.

She had to actually make a sacrifice to do so though, besides she was defending herself as well. If Tirek had just forcefully taken her magic there would have been no key moment for Twilight. She would have just been defeated like everypony else instead of sacrificing to save her friends

[Steel Accord 6,660]

 

 

Huh, so if you use the empire's magical artifact to cheer everyone up, and someone just happens to explode, which one does that count as...?

 

I guess it could be either depending on how it's portrayed. If it's a tragic misfire, it's the former. If it's played for laughs, it's the latter. Just confirming here, do I detect sarcasm in this question? I'm terrible at recognizing it and would hate to think you're being ingenue if you're not. (Or taking something serious that you don't intend as.)

 

Needless to say there is a difference between fantasy violence and actual violence.

 

 

 

The elements don't hurt anyone, ever. And repelling changelings isn't violent. This is getting way too semantical again.

 

I would say that counts as fantasy violence. Not to mention "pushing" is one of the first violent acts children are capable of. Semantic? Perhaps, but I would have to agree with your counterpart in that at least two of the major foes were dispatched with violent measures.

 

 

 

This just comes across as silly when you actually look at how they handle monsters in the first two seasons. I don't mean to just dismiss you, but really those seasons make it absolutely clear that they solve problems without violence.

 

You're right, in the first season, they did solve their problems non-violently. Although they did fight the Manticore and Rainbow Dash tried with the dragon, so it's clear it was always an option to them.

 

As the seasons went on though, some foes couldn't be reasoned with, and the Mane Six couldn't run away.

 

 

 

I wouldn't say "it's bad". I'd just say that the trend for violence to be used to fix things is just one more example of something I valued as special about the show being degraded and forgotten as it becomes yet another cookie cutter children's cartoon.

 

 

I would again, highly contest that this show has become anywhere near par with the likes of Johnny Test or Teen Titans Go.

 

What you value is still there. Just because the Mane Six have engaged in combat and won doesn't make them blood thirsty. They dealt with (as reluctant as I am to mention this episode) Flutterbat entirely without fighting her, just magically reversing the spell. Speaking of whom, Fluttershy is clearly as pacifist as you are. She never wishes for conflict and avoids it all costs. Her finest moments are challenging monsters and foes without so much as raising a hoof to them. That, at the very least, hasn't changed.

 

 

 

Hey now, Iron Will was a legitimate, honest, and rational businessman. He was kind of greedy and misguided, but he only threatened Fluttershy when she implied she was cheating him out of his hard earned money. Once she explained the situation, he completely backed down. That was part of the moral, that he appears to be a threatening huckster, but when approached in a straightforward and assertive manner (unlike what Rarity and Pinkie tried to do by deceiving him) he was actually willing to do exactly as he promised. Aaand with that I'm going to bed. Haven't even gotten to touch on the problems with lasers yet, so I'll get to that tomorrow!

 

Completely agreed and that's why I liked that episode in the end. Iron Will was a minotaur of his word despite all his blust and blunder. My point was that he was still ready to exact his payment physically if he was cheated out of his money, a completely legitimate reason if not method. My point was that his attitude contrasted Fluttershy's.

[Admiral Regulus 2,769]

I'm going to try to explain this in the simplest way I can:

 

Real violence = bad

 

Fantasy violence = entertainment

[Pastel 7,630]

It's OK as long as it's not in most episodes of the show.

Fight scenes in season premieres/finales only would be enough.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Blobulle

[PSP (Dizzy) 201]

I think that the only time violence and lasers (it's spelled with an s, by the way) had become particularly distracting were during the S4 finale. I would definitely like some more quaint and humble episodes focused on interactions between characters, but I am just biased toward those kinds of things.

[Ziltoid the Omniscient 286]

Actually, I think they're pretty cool to involve fantasy violence in a show such as this. It'd be pretty damn crappy to just beat every major villian with rainbow friendship harmony blasts and speeches. The fact that Unicorns can shoot lasers just makes them more badass. I mean, they're magical warhorses.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I would again, highly contest that this show has become anywhere near par with the likes of Johnny Test or Teen Titans Go.

 

What you value is still there. Just because the Mane Six have engaged in combat and won doesn't make them blood thirsty. They dealt with (as reluctant as I am to mention this episode) Flutterbat entirely without fighting her, just magically reversing the spell. Speaking of whom, Fluttershy is clearly as pacifist as you are. She never wishes for conflict and avoids it all costs. Her finest moments are challenging monsters and foes without so much as raising a hoof to them. That, at the very least, hasn't changed.

You're making way too many assumptions about me and what I'm saying. I can't just keep trying to correct you. Sorry.

Though to answer your question it wasn't sarcasm, I was just being facetious.

 

 

I think that the only time violence and lasers (it's spelled with an s, by the way) had become particularly distracting were during the S4 finale. I would definitely like some more quaint and humble episodes focused on interactions between characters, but I am just biased toward those kinds of things.

I found them extremely distracting in Three's a Crowd. Our hero Twilight and the alicorn of love Cadence blasting lasers at a giant worm... Man that's so relevant to the story :\

I actually know how to fix the scene, make it more "season 1"ish if anyone wants to hear.

[PSP (Dizzy) 201]

You're making way too many assumptions about me and what I'm saying. I can't just keep trying to correct you. Sorry.

Though to answer your question it wasn't sarcasm, I was just being facetious.

 

 

I found them extremely distracting in Three's a Crowd. Our hero Twilight and the alicorn of love Cadence blasting lasers at a giant worm... Man that's so relevant to the story :\

I actually know how to fix the scene, make it more "season 1"ish if anyone wants to hear.

 

I completely avoided Three's a Crowd, so you've got me there. I just wasn't interested in the episode at all.

 

And I wouldn't mind hearing.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I completely avoided Three's a Crowd, so you've got me there. I just wasn't interested in the episode at all.

 

And I wouldn't mind hearing.

Wouldn't do much for you if you haven't seen it, but I'll use the opportunity to gripe about lasers for a while.

My problem with them is unrelated to the violence issue, but they sort of exacerbate each other. Basically, they're painfully uncreative. We had two whole seasons of amazing magic, specific spells, and the writing team managing to use them in creative ways. Then in A Canterlot Wedding, it wasn't a big problem at all, but it unfortunately set the stage for laser abuse. Celestia and Chrysalis have a little beam-o'-war but the only purpose is to quickly dispatch the princess and set the mood. Honestly, a LOT is conveyed there about Changelings, Shining Armor's love, Celestia, it sidestepped all the major issues with just using lasers by being very meaningful. And during the big changeling "fight scene" (it's really not) Twilight was not just using lasers, she was actually firing a spell. A stunning spray that exposes changelings, a bit more creative than just pew pew.

 

Season 3 managed to avoid it too, Magic Duel was fantastically creative in its use of spells. But then comes season 4 and lasers are just Twilight and the princesses' standard thing now. Remember all the different things Nightmare Moon did in episode 2? Remember how it wasn't just death beams? Oh no, a tatzlwurm! Should they try to fool it into tripping itself up, or maybe make the ground around it unstable? Or clog its mouth with a big rock? No way, time for lasers, pew pew! Guh, basically, lasers in Equestria are the hallmark of absolutely giving up on creativity, the biggest merit the show has. Just like with the violence, there's a damn good reason why Twilight wasn't shooting her problems away with lasers in the first seasons. But just like everything else that was important to the show when it was good, the writers just don't care anymore. They know the fanbase will stay loyal no matter what they crank out of the assembly line, so they're complacent to rest on their Laurens and ignore what made the show good in the first place.

[Cleverclover 1,526]

Just like with the violence, there's a damn good reason why Twilight wasn't shooting her problems away with lasers in the first seasons.

 

 

It's probably because she wasn't an alicorn in the first seasons. No doubt the transformation left bronies wanting to "see her in action", so to speak. 

 

As a matter of fact, maybe all the laser battles and uber spells concerned with her character of late is meant to make up for her lack of meaningful development throughout season 4. Three's a Crowd was arguably the only Twilight-focused slice-of-life episode in season 4, and instead of being treated to her showing flaws and learning something meaningful (No, the non-lesson she learned in that episode was not meaningful), we receive an intense laser battle to froth over instead. 

Edited January 9, 2015 by Cleverclover

[Dulset Tarn 441]

It's probably because she wasn't an alicorn in the first seasons. No doubt the transformation left bronies wanting to "see her in action", so to speak. 

 

As a matter of fact, maybe all the laser battles and uber spells concerned with her character of late is meant to make up for her lack of meaningful development throughout season 4. Three's a Crowd was arguably the only Twilight-focused slice-of-life episode in season 4, and instead of being treated to her showing flaws and learning something meaningful (No, the non-lesson she learned in that episode was not meaningful), we receive an intense laser battle to froth over instead. 

If true, that's just insulting in a number of ways.

 

And just to be clear, did you really find it intense?

Edited January 9, 2015 by Dulset Tarn

[Steel Accord 6,660]

You're making way too many assumptions about me and what I'm saying. I can't just keep trying to correct you. Sorry.

Though to answer your question it wasn't sarcasm, I was just being facetious.

I apologize of your feel I was trying to do that as I assure you that was not the case. I was merely citing an instance and character that are pacifist in nature.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I apologize of your feel I was trying to do that as I assure you that was not the case. I was merely citing an instance and character that are pacifist in nature.

Don't worry, I can tell you're honest. Maybe we can talk about lasers when I get back

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Wouldn't do much for you if you haven't seen it, but I'll use the opportunity to gripe about lasers for a while.

My problem with them is unrelated to the violence issue, but they sort of exacerbate each other. Basically, they're painfully uncreative. We had two whole seasons of amazing magic, specific spells, and the writing team managing to use them in creative ways. Then in A Canterlot Wedding, it wasn't a big problem at all, but it unfortunately set the stage for laser abuse. Celestia and Chrysalis have a little beam-o'-war but the only purpose is to quickly dispatch the princess and set the mood. Honestly, a LOT is conveyed there about Changelings, Shining Armor's love, Celestia, it sidestepped all the major issues with just using lasers by being very meaningful. And during the big changeling "fight scene" (it's really not) Twilight was not just using lasers, she was actually firing a spell. A stunning spray that exposes changelings, a bit more creative than just pew pew.

 

Season 3 managed to avoid it too, Magic Duel was fantastically creative in its use of spells. But then comes season 4 and lasers are just Twilight and the princesses' standard thing now. Remember all the different things Nightmare Moon did in episode 2? Remember how it wasn't just death beams? Oh no, a tatzlwurm! Should they try to fool it into tripping itself up, or maybe make the ground around it unstable? Or clog its mouth with a big rock? No way, time for lasers, pew pew! Guh, basically, lasers in Equestria are the hallmark of absolutely giving up on creativity, the biggest merit the show has. Just like with the violence, there's a damn good reason why Twilight wasn't shooting her problems away with lasers in the first seasons. But just like everything else that was important to the show when it was good, the writers just don't care anymore. They know the fanbase will stay loyal no matter what they crank out of the assembly line, so they're complacent to rest on their Laurens and ignore what made the show good in the first place.

You can argue A LOT of things! You can argue the absence of morality in violence, you can argue about what even qualifies as violence.

 

However, I REFUSE to beleive that DHX doesn't care! You may not agree with their creative decisions, but none of them are rooted in apathy!

[Dulset Tarn 441]

You can argue A LOT of things! You can argue the absence of morality in violence, you can argue about what even qualifies as violence.

 

However, I REFUSE to beleive that DHX doesn't care! You may not agree with their creative decisions, but none of them are rooted in apathy!

Maybe we should move this to a private conversation when I get back. This will be fun~

[Cleverclover 1,526]

 

 

If true, that's just insulting in a number of ways.

 

That's exactly why I hate Twilight's Kingdom so much. Twilight wasn't held to the standards that the rest of her friends were when she received her key. Each of them needed to actually falter in some area related to their Element and learn a legitimate lesson whilst inspiring someone at the same time, but Twilight got to skip all of that in favor of a flashy laser battle whilst remaining otherwise flawless.  

 

So yes, it is insulting that this is what the development of our main character has been reduced to. 

 

 

 

And just to be clear, did you really find it intense?

 

 

Not as intense as the one that would come later, obviously. 

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Maybe we should move this to a private conversation when I get back. This will be fun~

Gladly. I would contest your stance that they don't.

[Lightning Dash 327]

You know what, I actually didn't notice the show was getting more 'violent' because regardless, the series runs through perfectly. Everything that happens throughout the series is how I'd most like it to be.

 

But on the subject of violence; I honestly wouldn't say it's getting more 'violent' in any way. If you examine how fights play out in the show, you'll notice they're not exactly violent at all. Look at the season 4 finale with Twilight and Tirek. Twilight does have quite a brawl with Tirek, yes, but this is a monstrous villain that's only got evil in him, a lot of TV shows have that big bad evil villain. You're not just going to go up to him and give him a flower and talk to him hoping to solve the issues now are you? Seriously though, this is pretty much Equesrtia's most wanted Twilight's dealing with and the entire fate of Equestria's in her hooves, she's going to put up a fight and give it her all and he's not going to be throwing pebbles at her. Then there's the ending with the mane 6. They unlock the true pure power of friendship and use it against Tirek, thus banishing his power and sending him back to Tartarus as well as restoring the magic, strength and flight back to the Ponies or Equestria. There's no real violence there either.

 

I honestly think the finale played out perfectly while maintaining the child-friendly atmosphere. Come on now, there's a Narcissistic Centaur causing nothing but misery, how else could that play out? He's evil and there's no reasoning with evil. The only way you're going to beat that down is by force. The only battle throughout the series that can really be classed as violent would be this one but I still wouldn't class that as violent.

 

---

But the main point I want you to understand is even if it is violent, it's still appropriate for all audiences and it would never go beyond that, that's all that matters in this subject. As I've said; I think they scripted it well while maintaining the child-friendly approach. If you argue they shouldn't of had a villain to this extreme in the show, I say why not? Many TV shows out there have an extreme villain in them, it makes a great episode in my opinion and with Season four's finale, I couldn't of asked for a better ending.

 

At the end of the day, I'm grateful they've made all these episodes, I'm not going to complain about any of them. It's still suitable for it's intended age group, why should you complain about it? The most 'violence' you're ever going to see would be if Tirek ever escaped again. I wouldn't imagine for the show to get any more extreme than that but it's still suitable for all audiences.

Edited January 9, 2015 by -Celestia-

[Poetic Stone 1,041]

I can't stand violence, I think you can walk away from most crap like that and be a better person.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

That's exactly why I hate Twilight's Kingdom so much. Twilight wasn't held to the standards that the rest of her friends were when she received her key. Each of them needed to actually falter in some area related to their Element and learn a legitimate lesson whilst inspiring someone at the same time, but Twilight got to skip all of that in favor of a flashy laser battle whilst remaining otherwise flawless.  

 

So yes, it is insulting that this is what the development of our main character has been reduced to. 

 

 

 

 

 

Not as intense as the one that would come later, obviously.

Honestly, while I agree the key moment was stupid, I think the whole key thing is insulting to most of the Mane 6 anyway. Remember when their element was what made them special and unique and able to solve problems in ways none of the others could?

Well now, in every key episode, that pony is the only one struggling with their own element while all the others already know the answer. It trying to tell us that Dash is the least loyal, that Rarity is the least generous, because none of the others would have even struggled with something like that.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Artemis
Condescension and flame baiting are not valid responses to anything. Deleted the offending portion.