Are Alicorns Overrated?

[Ragingdubstep 61]

Hey, Raging again. So, what does everypony think of Alicorns? I mean, there's Luna, Cadence, Twilight, and Celestia. Honestly, I think anymore after this is too much...

What do you think?

 

~Raging

[cider float 2,537]

I agree but by the direction this show is going in we might end up getting more to appeal to the kiddies because they seem to like alicorns or seemingly overpowered characters. They have more toys to sell after adding more alicorns. The mane six won't be safe from the alicornizing either. Before you know it even background ponies have to go alicorn.

[Daring_Do 552]

Before you know it even background ponies have to go alicorn.

"WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT?!" - M.A. Larson, writer of Slice of Life

 

 

not a real quote

 

Edited July 29, 2015 by Daring_Do

[Veritum 257]

I really don't think they'd be stupid enough to make any more of the characters alicorns. I have no doubt they realize the potential backlash, and the loss of business would likely be more than the gain. As far as I'm concerned, their internet fanbase brings a lot more business than the intended demographic. Doing something like that, unless it SERIOUSLY adds to the plot like twilight did, would anger people, and I'm sure they see that.

[cider float 2,537]

I really don't think they'd be stupid enough to make any more of the characters alicorns. I have no doubt they realize the potential backlash, and the loss of business would likely be more than the gain. As far as I'm concerned, their internet fanbase brings a lot more business than the intended demographic. Doing something like that, unless it SERIOUSLY adds to the plot like twilight did, would anger people, and I'm sure they see that.

Unfortunately after watching Slice of Life and the episodes after it I feel they will do anything now.

[\/ 651]

In short, because I'm feeling lazy:

 

Great and powerful Sunbutt has too much power at no cost to anyone. She and Luna both control the sun and moon (or the rotation of their planet, if it is one) and have never been shown not to have this power. They might have existed forever, or they may be a special pair, heirs to a previous Alicorn or Alicorns set to raise the sun and moon. Until we know where they came from, we'll never know why they're as powerful or crazy as they are. I guess Celestia gets to go around giving anyone a set of wings and a horn if that's how it worked with Twilight (I gurantee you Starswirl's spell had nothing to do with it). Do they just create new Alicorns before they die, or do they live forever? Nobody knows, and we don't really need to. But if you want to speculate or yell at the writers, go ahead.

 

 

Short you ask? What was the long version? You don't want to know.

 

[Daring_Do 552]

In short, because I'm feeling lazy:

 

Great and powerful Sunbutt has too much power at no cost to anyone. She and Luna both control the sun and moon (or the rotation of their planet, if it is one) and have never been shown not to have this power. They might have existed forever, or they may be a special pair, heirs to a previous Alicorn or Alicorns set to raise the sun and moon. Until we know where they came from, we'll never know why they're as powerful or crazy as they are. I guess Celestia gets to go around giving anyone a set of wings and a horn if that's how it worked with Twilight (I gurantee you Starswirl's spell had nothing to do with it). Do they just create new Alicorns before they die, or do they live forever? Nobody knows, and we don't really need to. But if you want to speculate or yell at the writers, go ahead.

 

 

Short you ask? What was the long version? You don't want to know.

 

Regular unicorns used to raise the sun and moon (see Hearth's Warming Eve).

[\/ 651]

Regular unicorns used to raise the sun and moon (see Hearth's Warming Eve).

While it could be assumed that one unicorn could do it all, it would make the most sense that a team of highly skilled unicorns would have to work together to raise the sun and moon. Celestia can do both with no trouble at all. She does it as easily as Twilight lifts a book. Surely no ordinary unicorn could raise or lower the sun/moon. There's more to it. 

[Memory Lane 131]

An Alicorn character is fine by me so long as they serve a reasonable purpose. Each one should embody something unique. Their value would be cheapened otherwise.

[Veritum 257]

Unfortunately after watching Slice of Life and the episodes after it I feel they will do anything now.

 

I can see why you'd think that, but Slice of life was purely fan service. A celebration of the fandom for the 100th episode of MLP. What do the episodes after that have to do with it though?

[cider float 2,537]

I can see why you'd think that, but Slice of life was purely fan service. A celebration of the fandom for the 100th episode of MLP. What do the episodes after that have to do with it though?

Background ponies are mentioned more and they are brought to the light one too many times. Amending Fences pretty much made background ponies support cast and Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep was practically another milder Slice of Life.

 

And the writing is getting really bad the conclusion for Luna was just atrocious, Luna has been blaming herself for over an year and she gets over it when Twilight asked her to that quick and they really put self harm there?

 

Well my rant aside they're just going to put whatever they feel like now because they know bronies are going to love it.

Edited July 29, 2015 by cider float

[Veritum 257]

Background ponies are mentioned more and they are brought to the light one too many times. Amending Fences pretty much made background ponies support cast and Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep was practically another milder Slice of Life.

 

Amending Fences served a purpose; to give us more insight into Twilight's past. What was originally just a recap on what her life was like beforehand, turned into a story of how someone lost their best friend and lived a life of solitude because of it. The background ponies shown here were here for a purpose.

 

Do princesses dream of magic sheep was fairly warranted, as it was a dreamscape. Even in the dream they say they can do anything they want. As far as the crazy things that happened in that episode, I think it was just another poke at the fanbase. I don't think it was really a problem, since as I said, it was in a dream.

 

Also, background ponies being mentioned isn't really a problem. The message in Slice of Life rings true here, that it's not just the main characters of life that make it whole, it's everyone around you that makes life great. Development of background characters is not a bad thing in my opinion. Anyways, I doubt exploring background characters is going to lead into anything major like the mane 6 all becoming alicorns. So far in season 5, almost everything has had a purpose, at least from what I can see.

 

Sorry for the wall of text 

[cider float 2,537]

Amending Fences served a purpose; to give us more insight into Twilight's past. What was originally just a recap on what her life was like beforehand, turned into a story of how someone lost their best friend and lived a life of solitude because of it. The background ponies shown here were here for a purpose.

 

Do princesses dream of magic sheep was fairly warranted, as it was a dreamscape. Even in the dream they say they can do anything they want. As far as the crazy things that happened in that episode, I think it was just another poke at the fanbase. I don't think it was really a problem, since as I said, it was in a dream.

 

Also, background ponies being mentioned isn't really a problem. The message in Slice of Life rings true here, that it's not just the main characters of life that make it whole, it's everyone around you that makes life great. Development of background characters is not a bad thing in my opinion. Anyways, I doubt exploring background characters is going to lead into anything major like the mane 6 all becoming alicorns. So far in season 5, almost everything has had a purpose, at least from what I can see.

 

Sorry for the wall of text

Yes DPDoMS was made as another excuse to show background ponies doing their thing. If they are running on whatever they find on the net I wouldn't be surprised if they put a stereotypical red black alicorn OC in the show or turned all the mane six alicorns, transform all the mane six into bronies than go to bronycon and then suddenly Twilight marries Winona and then they all go out to eat fruit loops, Celestia becomes a tyrant and Twilight tells her to stop being a tyrant and Celestia says Ok.

[Prince Firemane 309]

I maintain that the rest of the mane six will become Alicorns by the end of the series. I know, bronies are gonna flip their shit because every little change ever since season 2 is horrible. While making the mane six Alicorns would probably not be a good idea, it would probably be much better received if the writers actually answered some questions about Alicorn lore for once instead of just dropping in random bits of new and useless information.

[Justin_Case001 4,881]

Somebody (a FIM team member) needs to write a massive-ass book entitled "The Alicorn Delusion" to set all of the lore straight and once and for all end all alicorn debates.

 

 

Yes, I was intentionally referencing Richard Dawkins' book.

 

 

 

I guess Celestia gets to go around giving anyone a set of wings and a horn if that's how it worked with Twilight (I gurantee you Starswirl's spell had nothing to do with it).

 

I just did another post on this in that alicorn OP thread.  I want to exand on that a little.  Basically, I was talking about how I don't accept the fact that Celestia transformed Twilight (or Cadance for that matter.)  I believe the change is something that comes from within.  I think a good case can be made for this, but perhaps it can be busted, and if so, well, then that's disappointing.  I've been thinking more and more about this, and I can't reconcile an alicorn's ability to transform others into alicorns as anything but a monstrous abuse of power.  If Celestia did in fact directly transform Twilight, then it was a personal violation.  It was not consentual or granted permission.  What if Twilight didn't want to be an alicorn?  It seems a silly question, as having wings seems to be so awesome and desirable, but it's not fair or objective to think that way.  Just because you think that it's awesome, doesn't mean you have a right to force that on somebody else.  What if humans could do that?  Just imagine that for a second.  Imagine if certain, select humans could, of their own free will, alter the physiology of other humans simply because they think it's a good idea, and what they would want.  I don't care if the change is the best thing in the world, you can't do that without permission.

 

And what does this mean to all of the other ponies?  Why would Twilight be made an alicorn, and not the others?  Because she accomplished something great?  So...you do something awesome, and that entitles you to gain additional, beneficial physiology, when the creator of that physiology could apparently, easily give that to anyone?  Why should that be withheld?  Why is Twilight more deserving?  She's not better than the others.  They all have, figuratively speaking, just as good of hearts and souls.  Twilight is a natural leader, which is why she's more qualified to be a princess.  No argument there.  But as for the wings--how is it fair for Celestia alone to decide who gets transformed?  I don't know...in some ways, this doesn't seem fundamentally different to me than if beneficial surgery was reserved for nobel prize winners.  It's not the same thing as appointing the most qualified individual to a position.  Perhaps Celestia really is capable of giving this power to anypony, and it's her sacred responsibility to determine who will handle that power with responsibility.  But I still say it's a violation to grant alicornhood without permission.

 

I want to believe it's a change that the pony themselves sparks from within.  Then all of these problems vanish.

[Prince Firemane 309]

Somebody (a FIM team member) needs to write a massive-ass book entitled "The Alicorn Delusion" to set all of the lore straight and once and for all end all alicorn debates.

 

 

Yes, I was intentionally referencing Richard Dawkins' book.

 

 

 

 

I just did another post on this in that alicorn OP thread.  I want to exand on that a little.  Basically, I was talking about how I don't accept the fact that Celestia transformed Twilight (or Cadance for that matter.)  I believe the change is something that comes from within.  I think a good case can be made for this, but perhaps it can be busted, and if so, well, then that's disappointing.  I've been thinking more and more about this, and I can't reconcile an alicorn's ability to transform others into alicorns as anything but a monstrous abuse of power.  If Celestia did in fact directly transform Twilight, then it was a personal violation.  It was not consentual or granted permission.  What if Twilight didn't want to be an alicorn?  It seems a silly question, as having wings seems to be so awesome and desirable, but it's not fair or objective to think that way.  Just because you think that it's awesome, doesn't mean you have a right to force that on somebody else.  What if humans could do that?  Just imagine that for a second.  Imagine if certain, select humans could, of their own free will, alter the physiology of other humans simply because they think it's a good idea, and what they would want.  I don't care if the change is the best thing in the world, you can't do that without permission.

 

And what does this mean to all of the other ponies?  Why would Twilight be made an alicorn, and not the others?  Because she accomplished something great?  So...you do something awesome, and that entitles you to gain additional, beneficial physiology, when the creator of that physiology could apparently, easily give that to anyone?  Why should that be withheld?  Why is Twilight more deserving?  She's not better than the others.  They all have, figuratively speaking, just as good of hearts and souls.  Twilight is a natural leader, which is why she's more qualified to be a princess.  No argument there.  But as for the wings--how is it fair for Celestia alone to decide who gets transformed?  I don't know...in some ways, this doesn't seem fundamentally different to me than if beneficial surgery was reserved for nobel prize winners.  It's not the same thing as appointing the most qualified individual to a position.  Perhaps Celestia really is capable of giving this power to anypony, and it's her sacred responsibility to determine who will handle that power with responsibility.  But I still say it's a violation to grant alicornhood without permission.

 

I want to believe it's a change that the pony themselves sparks from within.  Then all of these problems vanish.

I personally believe the idea that Celestia did indeed transform Twilight directly. Does that make her an amoral monster? Absolutely not. After all, Twilight's never voiced any objection to being a Princess. She's been understandably uncomfortable, sure; but never once has she stated to Celestia, her friends, Spike or even herself that she didn't want to do it. It may be cheap to bring this up, but so be it: why is it so hard to think that Celestia had an off-screen discussion with Twilight about this very thing? A whole bunch of other shit in Magical Mystery Cure happened off-screen, why not that? Like I said, Twilight's never voiced any objection about being a Princess. If she hasn't voiced objections in the season-and-a-half since Magical Mystery Cure, it's safe to say she doesn't have them.

 

When it comes to the other ponies, who's to say who's deserving of ascension? Celestia, that's who. She and Luna have saved Equestria multiple times and have led it into a period of prosperity for well over a thousand years. They have shown multiple times across whole generations that they truly do know what is best for Equestria. Also, I must note that Celestia's decision to ascend Twilight wasn't solely hers, Luna was in on it too. Why would she only ascend Twilight and not the others? Like you said, she's not any better than them. But she's the one who is currently ready. Perhaps the others will be ready in their own time and will join Twilight in ascension. She decided to ascend Cadance, doing so led to the current prosperity of the Crystal Empire. If she could make a good choice like that before, why couldn't she do it again? Celestia is perceptive, intelligent and quite possibly gifted with prophetic visions. If anyone is capable of making said decision, it's Celestia; and it seems quite a bit more beneficial than just leaving the ability to quite literally control and dictate aspects of the physical and psychological worlds up to anyone having a sufficiently powerful epiphany.

[SBaby 660]

Basically, I was talking about how I don't accept the fact that Celestia transformed Twilight (or Cadance for that matter.)  I believe the change is something that comes from within. 

 

There is a good case that can be made.  But either side of the argument is going to be speculation at best, since we have no confirmation by the show one way or the other.  It's all going to come down to personal preference.  In other words, speculation and opinion.

 

The theory is, when Twilight had the vision, it was a psychological profile of her past achievements, coupled with a vision that took the form of Celestia.  She was not physicaly there, as this was happening in Twilight's subconscious during the transformation (the transformation was happening at the exact same time this was going on, and from the other Mane 6 members' perspectives, the change was instantaneous).  

 

Twilight becoming a Princess happened after this event.  In other words, the two instances were separate.

 

And here's why the theory works.  If this wasn't the case, then why didn't Celestia just transform other ponies into Alicorns when Nightmare Moon attacked Equestria, or when Chrysalis tried to take over Ponyville, or when Sombra attacked the Crystal Empire?  The short answer is, she couldn't, because she doesn't have that ability.

 

As I said, unless they flat-out say one way or the other in the show, then take what anyone says on the subject with a grain of salt.

Edited July 29, 2015 by SBaby

[Justin_Case001 4,881]

I personally believe the idea that Celestia did indeed transform Twilight directly. Does that make her an amoral monster? Absolutely not. After all, Twilight's never voiced any objection to being a Princess. She's been understandably uncomfortable, sure; but never once has she stated to Celestia, her friends, Spike or even herself that she didn't want to do it. It may be cheap to bring this up, but so be it: why is it so hard to think that Celestia had an off-screen discussion with Twilight about this very thing? A whole bunch of other shit in Magical Mystery Cure happened off-screen, why not that? Like I said, Twilight's never voiced any objection about being a Princess. If she hasn't voiced objections in the season-and-a-half since Magical Mystery Cure, it's safe to say she doesn't have them.

One distinction that needs to be made, which I already touched on, is that princess and alicorn are not the same thing.  Celestia did not transform Twilight into a princess.  She appointed her, and Twilight had the freedom to decline if she so chose.  She accepted, obviously.  The debate is whether or not Celestia transformed Twilight into an alicorn, and whether that's a moral action or not.  We have abundant proof that "princess" is a rank/title/position of responsibility, not a physiological state or species.  That much is not open for debate.  To address the point of whether or not Celestia had an aside conversation with Twi--It's obvious she did not have such a conversation before the ascension.  Twi was obviously flabbergasted at the transformation.  Celestia obviously did not tell Twilight she was going to become an alicorn.  So, again, permission was not given.  If I was Magneto (I'm really hoping you've seen the first X-Men movie), and had a SAFE, proven version of that machine, and what's more, I could tailor it to specific mutations, and could give any human wings like Angel's in X-Men 3, and I gave you wings without your permission or consent, would that be a justifiable action?  I say not.

 

Just for the record, I admit to extreme scrutiny of a pretty frivolous matter.  I enjoy picking stuff apart like this, and I believe it can make us think about very important matters on how to best conduct ourselves in life, but by no means do I actually think Celestia is a monster, and I still love the show.

 

The theory is, when Twilight had the vision, it was a psychological profile of her past achievements, coupled with a vision that took the form of Celestia.  She was not physicaly there, as this was happening in Twilight's subconscious during the transformation (the transformation was happening at the exact same time this was going on, and from the other Mane 6 members' perspectives, the change was instantaneous).  

 

Twilight becoming a Princess happened after this event.  In other words, the two instances were separate.

 

And here's why the theory works.  If this wasn't the case, then why didn't Celestia just transform other ponies into Alicorns when Nightmare Moon attacked Equestria, or when Chrysalis tried to take over Ponyville, or when Sombra attacked the Crystal Empire?  The short answer is, she couldn't, because she doesn't have that ability.

NICE!  I had an interesting theory as well.  My headcanon was that when the elements blasted Twi in the library, they killed her.  She was dead in Celestia's movie theatre, and Celestia (possibly through some conduit enabled by Luna) was able to communicate with Twilight in this place.  Twilight was reborn as an alicorn a la Gandalf the White.  I think I like your theory better because mine has too many loopholes, including a possible 6th Day violation.  Your theory seems much more sound, but it still makes me wonder what the elements did exactly when they blasted her.  We'll never know.

[Prince Firemane 309]

One distinction that needs to be made, which I already touched on, is that princess and alicorn are not the same thing.  Celestia did not transform Twilight into a princess.  She appointed her, and Twilight had the freedom to decline if she so chose.  She accepted, obviously.  The debate is whether or not Celestia transformed Twilight into an alicorn, and whether that's a moral action or not.  We have abundant proof that "princess" is a rank/title/position of responsibility, not a physiological state or species.  That much is not open for debate.  To address the point of whether or not Celestia had an aside conversation with Twi--It's obvious she did not have such a conversation before the ascension.  Twi was obviously flabbergasted at the transformation.  Celestia obviously did not tell Twilight she was going to become an alicorn.  So, again, permission was not given.  If I was Magneto (I'm really hoping you've seen the first X-Men movie), and had a SAFE, proven version of that machine, and what's more, I could tailor it to specific mutations, and could give any human wings like Angel's in X-Men 3, and I gave you wings without your permission or consent, would that be a justifiable action?  I say not.

Well as it currently stands, it's most reasonable to assume that Alicorns are Princesses by default. Alicorns have incredible longevity if they aren't outright immortal, not to mention that if their power isn't constant and degrades, it does so very gradually, to the point of 1000+ years of age and constant use doesn't make a noticeable difference. Thus, Alicorns as powerful and benevolent as Celestia and Luna would be the appropriate choices for potentially-eternal rulers. The same standard applies to Twilight ((and Cadance if you consider The Crystal Heart Spell as canon)), this is proven by the fact that they were crowned Princesses immediately after they were ascended. If a non-Royal Alicorn ever shows up in indisputable canon, then I'll change my tune. But at this point, I find it really pointless to debate it.

 

I'll own the fact that Celestia made a leap of faith when she ascended Twilight, but that has been Celestia's MO from the beginning. It seems reasonable that Celestia would figure that Twilight would be okay with it. During her song, Twilight seemed a bit excited at the prospect of a higher calling and a bigger destiny, that and the chance for higher studies that being a Princess would be to her. Twilight was apprehensive and a bit scared, but she was never discouraged or appalled, even when she was glowing and floating in the air. She wasn't appalled when she discovered her new wings and seemed amused by Rainbow seeing a new flying buddy in her. She never seemed disgusted with the idea of being a Princess, she met it head-on and was excited and even humbled to be chosen for such an important title.

[Kyoshi Frost Wolf 41,320]

Are Alicorns overrated? On a scale of power, I think so. We have yet to see anything that makes them godlike in power (minus Luna and Celestia's ability to supposedly raise the sun and moon) and the only time we have come to close to that is when the power of 4 of them is combined exactly. That just makes it a numbers game then.

 

I think Alicorns should stand for symbols of extreme importance and that is where I think the current four are perfect for their role, each one has a hugely important aspect to it. Celestia, Princess of the Sun. Luna, Princess of the night which also includes the dream world it suppose. Cadence, the princess of love and lastly, Twilight, the princess of friendship. Each one of these plays an important factor and if any new Alicorns would be introduced, they should represent a symbol of importance like the others. If not, then they are, to me, kinda pointless.

[Bendy 1,821]

Everything is overrated.

 

That chocolate cake Nicolas Cage is eating is overrated.

 

Lots of people like the ponies princesses because they are cute and what not. Good personality and whatever.

 

Plus everyone knows Princess Twilight Sparkle has a human fetish, so therefore she's best pony princess.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Bendy

[Phoenix Flair 332]

As far as Alicorns go, yes, they are overrated.  I mean, when was the last time Celestia did anything useful?  A long dang time ago, that's for sure.  I'll bet Pinkie Pie has saved Equestria more times than her, and she ain't been alive for one twentieth of Celestia's life.

 

I wouldn't mind a few more Alicorns, but I'd kinda like to see one who can break from the pack.  A punk kinda Alicorn whose intentions don't pretend to be so noble, maybe shirks responsibility and stuff.  I doubt it will happen, because Alicorn's gotta keep their reputation as pure-hearted and snooty, but I can still dream.

[cider float 2,537]

Everything is overrated.

 

That chocolate cake Nicolas Cage is eating is overrated.

 

Lots of people like the ponies princesses because they are cute and what not. Good personality and whatever.

 

Plus everyone knows Princess Twilight Sparkle has a human fetish, so therefore she's best pony princess.

I feel people like alicorns because they have it all.

[SBaby 660]

I personally believe the idea that Celestia did indeed transform Twilight directly.

 

If this is the case, then why didn't she just do this when other villains attacked Equestria?  If she had the power to do this the whole time, she would have used it if there was an emergency, like when Nightmare Moon attacked, or when Chrysalis attacked, or when Sombra attacked the Crystal Empire.  If she had the power to turn ponies into Alicorns on a whim, she could have easily done this with several Ponies, and could have overpowered most of the major villains in the series.  But she didn't.  Why is that?

 

The only possible answer to this is that she couldn't do it.  If anything, it was the Elements of Harmony that caused the transformation.  Bear in mind that Twilight's vision didn't start UNTIL she was zapped by the Elements.  Everything she saw afterward was a reflection of her inner psyche, caused by a combination of the Elements' influence and her own mind.  So it stands to reason that if anything artificially caused the transformation, it would be them. 

 

Celestia teleported there after Twilight's vision had ended, likely because she sensed the sheer amount of magical power that was radiating from that point (we have seen other instances where this was the case).  And once she learned that Twilight had completed the spell, that is when she made her a Princess.  The spell was in the book Celestia gave Twilight, which means she had to be considering her for Princesshood, even before she knew she was going to turn into an Alicorn.  Therefore, Alicorns likely do not automatically equal Princesses.

 

But as you said, and as I have said numerous times, everything should be taken with a grain of salt until we get a canonical answer to it all.  Otherwise, it's all guess work anyway.

 

So back to the question at hand (and by extension, the TOPIC at hand).  Are they overrated?  Well, yeah.  Sort of.  But they aren't overpowered.  There are examples of Alicorns failing to do things, including Celestia.

Edited July 30, 2015 by SBaby

[Brony Number 42 10,069]

 

 

Surely no ordinary unicorn could raise or lower the sun/moon. There's more to it.

What if Celestia doesn't raise the sun at all? What if a long time ago she was like, "Hey everypony, I totally have magic powers. Look, I will raise the sun." uses her knowledge of astronomy to know the time of sun rise. "Ta da! Now worship me as your princess!"