Do you think Discord manipulated Tirek in Twilights Kingdom?

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

So, this is a theory I have pretty much assumed as true for..basically forever now. 

In Twilights Kingdom Tirek defeats Discord and takes his magic.

I personally think this was foreseen by Discord and that Discord tricked Tirek from the start.

Discord has shown that he wants to teach Twilight lessons in the past, in season 4 premiere he outright knew what the threat was and caused it, but did not stop it and didn't tell Twilight so she could learn a valuable lesson about being Princess, in Threes a Crowd Discord makes Twilight go on a journey to prove her friendship to Discord and ends up giving her an item. Initially, I think Discord thought he could cheat that to be Twilights key.

In Twilights Kingdom, Discord doesn't seem to take his job of trapping Tirek seriously. At first he makes jokes about it but right after questions Twilight opening the chest, at this point I think he knows that Twilight hasn't found her key yet, he then leaves and makes another big entrance to highlight the journal and basically handing Twilight the location of the keys by bookmarking where the keys were. 

Discord, knowing that Twilight doesn't have her key yet and hasn't unlocked the next step in her Princess life, "joins" Tirek to make the situation seem far worse than it is. When the Princesses give their energy to Twilight, Discord does not tell Tirek, he knows what happened, he can sense it, but he figures the chest will still be opened.

Tirek gives Discord his medallion, at this point I think Discord knows Tirek will betray him for sure, and Discord is aware of what the medallion will be. When Tirek takes the magic of the mane 5, Discord looks away, obviously upset over seeing it. But when Tirek turns his attention back to Discord, he is seemingly happy. 

Tirek takes Discords magic and the biggest thing here is...Tirek doesn't get much more powerful, I think Discord humored him here, gave him enough power to think he got a lot stronger. He barely gets bigger at all. he does size up a bit. But unlike taking the other ponies powers, he doesn't gain anything from Discord. Also going to note that when Discord gets drained, unlike every other pony we saw lose magic. Discords eyes don't get deluded at all, instead, they stay normal.

Also powerscaling doesn't add up, with nearly every pony in Equestria and Discord, Twilight vs Tirek should have been a one sided stomp in Tireks favor. But it wasn't, it was completely even, we know that 1,000 years ago Discord easily defeated Celestia and Luna (shown when we see the past, C&L are all beaten up where as Discord is laughing away, nowhere near injured or hurt.

When the deal is made Tirek gets the Alicorn magic, which Discord should be at minimum on par with the 4 Alicorns (in all likelihood he should be far more powerful) and Tirek grows, he gets like well over twice as large and is now overflowing with power, yet he only got a slight boost from Discord.

Discord then gives Twilight the medallion, knowing that this is the final key.

Also, while this last bit is unrelated, the narrator does state Discord as an "unlikely ally" in the hub promo, I think this has more to it than we think, the viewer is supposed to think that "oh it's Discord, what an unlikely person to help out" but he was reformed in season 3 for that very reason, I think it meant that it was unlikely Discord was aiding Twilight the whole time.

To relate, this exact thing recently happened in another show, Star Vs the Forces of Evil, super powerful dude (Glossaryck) seemingly betrays main heroin, secretly has plan that advances the main character without directly solving issues for them.

Also, while I don't find many of the comics canon, Discord has shown the ability to travel through time for the lols, it is slightly possible he knew he would be the one to give Twilight her key (explaining Threes a Crowd)

Really I have had this theory for a while and I know I am not the only one who has thought of it, I mean, Discords power alone should be enough to trade blows with (if not completely stomp) All Alicorn Twilight, but Tirek with Discord, and nearly all the ponies in Equestria can't? Either Meghan is a great writer who planned this, or she just doesn't care about consistency. I like to think she is a great writer who had Discord training and tricking Tirek be a plan the whole time.

 

[Marimo 555]

Problem with that theory, I don't think the key would've actually appeared if Discord didn't genuinely learn something from Twilight. It wasn't just the mane six who had to learn a lesson, they had to actually teach someone about their element (possibly foreshadowing how the box created Twilight's castle, which has the map which has them going around Equestria teaching other ponies).

Quote

Twilight Sparkle: All of you had tough choices to make. But when you made the right one and embraced your element, it helped somepony else make the right choice too. Each of you received something from the pony whose life you helped change.

 

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

13 minutes ago, Marimo said:

Problem with that theory, I don't think the key would've actually appeared if Discord didn't genuinely learn something from Twilight. It wasn't just the mane six who had to learn a lesson, they had to actually teach someone about their element (possibly foreshadowing how the box created Twilight's castle, which has the map which has them going around Equestria teaching other ponies).

 

Which Discord did try in Threes a Crowd, it almost seemed like a forced key episode. And he did learn about Twilight, helped her and learned the same lesson she did, it's just he set it up.

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

If Discord is a master of everything, does it mean he can foreseen To Where and Back Again too? If he can know everything, do everything so every our heroes victories are all his plans? I dont know. Recently, we have some proofs that our characters who we think are supposed to be mighty and 'know it all' are not that... mighty and 'know it all'. Celestia is not a chess master  that i thought she would be back to S1. Discord looks kinda... normal in recent season like Discordant Harmony, he doesnt look like Little Finger (manipulate bastard), or Varys (greater good) *Game of Throne reference*, just chaotic and fun.  I dont think mlp go to Game of Throne level of conspiracy. All in all, i think his reactions in Twilight Kingdom are genuine, not an act for some grand schemes. It could be Megahn's master plan or just some inconsistencies, we will never know.

Bonus: If i treat Discord as a master of manipulation behind the scenes of Twilight Kingdom, then i should suspect every his actions in his episodes in S5, S6, S7 or beyond because his actions may be just he playing a fool for some big big big grand scheme, my head will be exploded from over-thinking.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Lambdadelta

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

8 minutes ago, Lambdadelta said:

If Discord is a master of everything, does it mean he can foreseen To Where and Back Again too? If he can know everything, do everything so every our heroes victories are all his plans? I dont know. Recently, we have some proofs that our characters who we think are supposed to be mighty and 'know it all' are not that... mighty and 'know it all'. Celestia is not a chess master  that i thought she would be back to S1. Discord looks kinda... normal in recent season like Discordant Harmony, he doesnt look like Little Finger (manipulate bastard), or Varys (greater good) *Game of Throne reference*, just chaotic and fun.  I dont think mlp go to Game of Throne level of conspiracy. All in all, i think his reactions in Twilight Kingdom are genuine, not an act for some grand schemes. It could be Megahn's master plan or just some inconsistencies, we will never know.

Bonus: If i treat Discord as a master of manipulation behind the scenes of Twilight Kingdom, then i should suspect every his actions in his episodes in S5, S6, S7 or beyond because his actions may be just he playing a fool for some big big big grand scheme, my head will be exploded from over-thinking.

Well, I didn't say directly he could see the future or anything, just that it was possible, but Discord did plan for Twilight to learn a lesson  in the season 4 premiere and Threes a Crowd, and based on everything we know Tirek could not have defeated him, and again, Discord is being displayed as normal lately because he has nothing to do. Not because he can't do it. 

I don't necessarily think Discord foresaw Tirek, just that he manipulated Tirek for Twilights benefit.

[Marimo 555]

1 minute ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Which Discord did try in Threes a Crowd, it almost seemed like a forced key episode. And he did learn about Twilight, helped her and learned the same lesson she did, it's just he set it up.

While I have no problem with Discord already figuring out how they were getting keys and pointing to the journal to give everyone a hint on that, I don't think he ever really foresaw that he would be the one to give Twilight her key, nor was he really aiming for that by trying to set up friendship lessons. I think if Discord deliberately set himself up to force Twilight and himself to learn a lesson, that just weakens the idea of how it's the mane six who are helping everyone else. No one else was setting things up for the other mane six to learn a lesson, that came about naturally because they naturally are able to help others.

And nothing from Discord suggests he was trying to set up a lesson or was pulling the strings all along like in Princess Twilight Sparkle, which I think is clear proof from the writer that this wasn't the intention of the character.

1 hour ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Also going to note that when Discord gets drained, unlike every other pony we saw lose magic. Discords eyes don't get deluded at all, instead, they stay normal

Spike's eyes stayed normal too, so I think it might've just been the animators either deliberately making non-ponies not get the eye thing, or they just didn't try to replicate it since Discord's eyes are a lot different than all the other characters.

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

14 minutes ago, Marimo said:

While I have no problem with Discord already figuring out how they were getting keys and pointing to the journal to give everyone a hint on that, I don't think he ever really foresaw that he would be the one to give Twilight her key, nor was he really aiming for that by trying to set up friendship lessons. I think if Discord deliberately set himself up to force Twilight and himself to learn a lesson, that just weakens the idea of how it's the mane six who are helping everyone else. No one else was setting things up for the other mane six to learn a lesson, that came about naturally because they naturally are able to help others.

And nothing from Discord suggests he was trying to set up a lesson or was pulling the strings all along like in Princess Twilight Sparkle, which I think is clear proof from the writer that this wasn't the intention of the character.

Spike's eyes stayed normal too, so I think it might've just been the animators either deliberately making non-ponies not get the eye thing, or they just didn't try to replicate it since Discord's eyes are a lot different than all the other characters.

It's possible that Discord did in fact learn a friendship lesson, but at the same time planned for Twilight to defeat Tirek.

Maybe planning to give Twilight the key wasn't part of the big plan, but it is still entirely possible he planned for Twilight to defeat Tirek through the chest.

Again, even if it weakens Twilights story, Tirek defeating Discord as easily as he did and getting so little power from him doesn't add up based on everything we know from before and after those episodes.

The ONLY way it would make sense on Tirek defeating Discord would be if it was because he absorbed the mane 5.

Also to note, Spike doesn't really seem to have magic in the same way as ponies or Discord do.

Aside from To Where and Back Again, when hasn't Discord had a plan?

1,000 years ago he knew that he couldn't defeat the elements, so he had the seeds which would free him after draining the Tree of Harmony. He already had his return planned

He had a plan so that Fluttershy would give him her element, so he would be free forever, of course he didn't realize he would end up wanting friendship

In Princess Twilight Sparkle, Discord literally says he wouldn't have robbed her from a valuable lesson of being princess

In Threes a Crowd Discord had a plan of making Twilight go to the ends of Equestria just to help him and passing his friendship test.

It seems like 80% of the time, Discord has a plan in place. Very similar to other characters similar to him from other shows.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Ryanmahaffe

[Marimo 555]

26 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Maybe planning to give Twilight the key wasn't part of the big plan, but it is still entirely possible he planned for Twilight to defeat Tirek through the chest.

How was she supposed to use the chest without the key? Cause if he was planning on her using it, then he was really counting on Twilight just happening to run into a friendship problem really soon afterwards. I don't think he had anyone in mind or else he would've tried giving some hint to go to them instead of just figuring out how the key works, because I don't think she'd have time to spend helping some other little problem after looking through the books at the old castle considering everyone would be distracted by the magic stealing centaur, who also now has Discord as a friend, which Discord should've known would've kept her distracted.

26 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Tirek defeating Discord as easily as he did and getting so little power from him doesn't add up based on everything we know from before and after those episodes.

When it comes to just power levels, sometimes characters are only as strong because the writers need to move the plot in the direction they need. Why is Chrysalis' power explicitly more than Celestia's just from draining one pony's love? To take Celestia out of the picture so she isn't the one to resolve things. Why doesn't Twilight just beat up Garble in Gauntlet of Fire even though she's faced monsters that would probably be stronger than him or at least teleport? Because they needed to give Ember the spotlight and show her as an ally. Why is all the earth ponies, unicorns, pegasi, and Discord's magic equal to just four alicorns? Because they wanted to do a cool action scene of Twilight vs Tirek and they needed Twilight to actually have a choice in giving up her powers instead of just Tirek forcibly taking it from her. Sometimes there's going to be inconsistencies and the writer can't fix it without taking too much time away, and either can't justify it with a throwaway line or it still feels weak, but they got to go forward anyway to keep telling the story that they want to tell. Or as Vegeta puts it:

 

26 minutes ago, Ryanmahaffe said:

Also to note, Spike doesn't really seem to have magic in the same way as ponies or Discord do.

Earth ponies and pegasi don't have magic the same way unicorns and Discord do! Strength and the ability fly and push clouds around as if they were solids? Well dragons are strong and durable, can fly, can interact with lava as if it was water, can transform into a bigger size if they get greedy, can breathe fire, and can breathe magic fire that sends messages. One of the guidebooks even refers to their fire breath as "magical" (just fire breath in general not Spike's telegram magic specifically). If Applejack is considered to have magic, then so does Spike.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Marimo

[Drunkfrank 1,125]

5 minutes ago, Marimo said:

How was she supposed to use the chest without the key? Cause if he was planning on her using it, then he was really counting on Twilight just happening to run into a friendship problem really soon afterwards. I don't think he had anyone in mind or else he would've tried giving some hint to go to them instead of just figuring out how the key works, because I don't think she'd have time to spend helping some other little problem after looking through the books at the old castle considering everyone would be distracted by the magic stealing centaur, who also now has Discord as a friend, which Discord should've known would've kept her distracted.

When it comes to just power levels, sometimes characters are only as strong because the writers need to move the plot in the direction they need. Why is Chrysalis' power explicitly more than Celestia's just from draining one pony's love? To take Celestia out of the picture so she isn't the one to resolve things. Why doesn't Twilight just beat up Garble in Gauntlet of Fire even though she's faced monsters that would probably be stronger than him or at least teleport? Because they needed to give Ember the spotlight and show her as an ally. Why is all the earth ponies, unicorns, pegasi, and Discord's magic equal to just four alicorns? Because they wanted to do a cool action scene of Twilight vs Tirek and they needed Twilight to actually have a choice in giving up her powers instead of just Tirek forcibly taking it from her. Sometimes there's going to be inconsistencies and the writer can't fix it without taking too much time away, and either can't justify it with a throwaway line or it still feels weak, but they got to go forward anyway to keep telling the story that they want to tell. Or as Vegeta puts it:

 

Earth ponies and pegasi don't have magic the same way unicorns and Discord do! Strength and the ability fly and push clouds around as if they were solids? Well dragons are strong and durable, can fly, can interact with lava as if it was water, can transform into a bigger size if they get greedy, can breathe fire, and can breathe magic fire that sends messages. One of the guidebooks even refers to their fire breath as "magical" (just fire breath in general not Spike's telegram magic specifically). If Applejack is considered to have magic, then so does Spike.

Queen Chrysalis was able to Defeat Celestia because she absorbed the power as one of the strongest love couples in equestria

Well Earth ponies and Pegasi are certainly more magical than dragons, their magic is literally talked about many times

I will give you the dragon thing, I just flipped through my guide book and it does state Dragons do have some magical properties. (Although, some of the things in the guide books are just...wrong, they say Twilight tried reforming Chrysalis in To Where and Back Again...) 

 

Still, the beauty of theories is that they can't really be proven, but as long as they has some decent backing (which I believe this one does)

[Mirage 24,771]

Dealing with 'magic' is always a fun conundrum in writing. The most important thing in using magic consistently is defining its rules, and I'm afraid Equestrian magic is still very much a mystery...even to Discord perhaps.

Great discussion about Discord! The way I see it, Discord doesn't care - it doesn't matter if he's good or bad, or friend or foe, as long as it is 'interesting' he'll participate. I happen to believe he did trick Tirek - I was tipped by his over-flowing appreciation of a simple amulet as a sign of 'partnership'. Discord has no use whatsoever of material things, or even symbols, to validate his existence or even his 'rank' among other beings - he's Discord, Chaos incarnate. Without vows, that is, a contract, the ring (amulet) means nothing. It was simply a 'gift' - or rather, a bribe. Can you really bribe Discord? Only temporarily. Discord never bound himself, but allowed Tirek to assume he was ignorant of Twilight's destiny.

Fine details aside, I think Discord was always aware of Twilight's purpose and has been instrumental in so many obscure ways to ensure she realizes it.

[ShootingStar159 2,157]

This is an idea I also considered back when I first watched the finale. I like the idea but the only problem I have with it is that it would have been a crazy risk for Discord to take. He would have had to be willing to risk not only his own life, but Fluttershy's life as well that Twilight would show true friendship towards him. If she didn't demand Discords release, no necklace, no key. I'm not certain he would have taken a chance like that.