Dragons compared to villains like Tirek

[Peter16373 103]

Just now, Hierok said:

Could be, but I think Starlight is lesa powerfull then Twilight. 

Pretty sure Starlight has shown time and time again she can now match Twilight without being angered anymore. So logically if you piss her off she would now be more powerful than roughly every character #19 and below. Also forgot to update the list on this thread.

[Goat-kun 2,530]

On 9/19/2017 at 1:50 AM, Ryanmahaffe said:

Tirek has more power to simply "burn Equestria to the ground" even without the card statement, he could easily destroy the entire planet

Most ponies can't take on dragons, most people won't dispute that, but the alicorns, Starlight, Twilight, they have enough raw magical power and prowess in spells to handle the majority of dragons, Starlight knows all these spells by heart now and can quickly think of the most radical decisions.

We don't know the limits of lasers, they can be capable of murder or simply knocking something out, it depends on how much power you put into it. 

If you destroyed an entire town and Discord replace it he wouldnt lose his power or life like in Discordant Harmony, that came from him completely changing everything about himself, Discord had no magic at all and was able to be perfectly fine in the hive. Discord can spawn volcanoes, casually create dimensions, move celestial bodies with ease

Even Celestia and Luna have Star level feats, and we know nothing about the power of dragons other then they fact they are big, strong, dumb, and can breathe fire and survive in lava. I don't think that will save them when Discord spawns a giant mountain on top of them, or transforms their fire breath into milk, or makes the dragon turn into a butterfly, people downplay Discord because reformed Discord is pretty much just that, a downplayed Discord as he can't showcase his power anymore.

What would a dragon do exactly in an area where a powerful pony could hide and use the terrain to her advantage (I say her because the only ponies who could defeat dragons are females) 

Twilight is capable of freezing dozens of ponies at a time, Starlight, and Twilight by extension, can teleport from Equestria, to the changeling hive, which as far as we know is an entirely different continent as it is not on any map of Equestria

Dragons are stupid, Starlight has advanced mind control, I doubt a dragon could counter it

Twilight as I said has displayed the ability to freeze others easily, she was able to levitate an Ursa minor when she was far far far far FAR weaker than she is now.

Discord:

-I disagree. His own actions can become his undoing as going against his purpose is what makes him weak. Switching his chaos on and off is one thing, but actively repairing destruction of another is a bit different as it is not a zero sum game. It's active enforcement of order.

-Also, he doesn't kill nor does he like to wound his opponents, a detail you should be aware of from all of his past (and parallel history) showings. He likes to brag and laugh at his victims like an all-powerful demon. And he can be beaten the same way as an all-powerful demon: tricks and games.

-There is also the matter of scope his abilities possess. He cannot form magical shields, his reflexes are nonexistent, he cannot cure status effects, and there is no indication that he can teleport huge landmasses or influence very large areas. He couldn't defend himself against a simple sneeze or mana drain. His magic obeys the same laws as pony magic when it comes to MP limit and silence CC. For an all-powerful being he sure has a lot of ordinary weaknesses.

-Also, there seems to be a method to his chaos. Every change, every addition his chaos magic produces is dictated by his brand of chaos. Everything becomes a parody not unlike the effect of Poison Joke. His repertoire of actual spells is very small. Could it be that he is but a slave to his own purpose hiding behind a guise of omnipotence?

-Anyway, do not approach Discord as a warrior but as a debater, then cook him once he's weakened and confused. Any capable creature, big or small, could pull a "Puss in Boots", especially if said creature is an ancient monster that has lived longer than Sisters.

 

Death rays:

-Tirek was only able to explode the top half of a single old oak tree with no extensive damage to the surrounding area. That thing had no penetration and relatively low temperature. Now imagine the scenery if that tree was hit by a 155 mm round.

 

Crowd Control:

-Now, back to CC. I hate using spell canon of past seasons because no one, even the writers themselves, don't give a shit for it. It's a write-and-forget clusterbuck of things that are overpowered in a vacuum but are then never used for five seasons. Twilight didn't CC Spike when he went on a rampage or that hydra from the bog. By saying they can defeat a giant monster via CC you are conceding that they never fight smart as they never use CC in combat. Unless you can prove that any of these characters performed effective CC on an opponent like tatzelwurm (not actually magical) or Chrysalis (has no magic shield, doesn't actually use proper magic) via their own magic in a combat situation, then this argument is null and void. Even Sombra, Chrysalis, and Discord who are using mind tricks didn't use them on their opponents in a combat situation.

-If you want to go all lore and no bullshit, you can clearly see that using CC is ineffective. Look at how much strain it takes for Twilight to hold down a bunch of hillbilly ponies, or how utterly pathetic it was to watch her and Starlight "fight" above Cloudsdale. Try using that CC on a giant angry monster. A bucking flashbang would be a better CC as it would at least blind your opponent

-And if you're still going all lore, no bullshit, then Journal of Two Sisters clearly states a sorry-ass dragon of no renown can casually free himself out of magical restraints designed by Starswirl and simultaneously conjured by Celestia and Luna without breaking a smoke.

-How do you even know Starlight's mind control is advanced mind control? How do you know it works on very hostile non-pone individuals? How do you know an individual cannot snap out of it? Is it more powerful than Starswirl's magic? Powerful unicorn or magical prodigy, she ain't no Jace Beleren, though she's approaching his "fame" so to speak.

-There is also another important question pertaining to writers' overpowered spell usage: would audience ever permit such magic as mind control to be the solution? The answer is no. Hence we have the Movie starring a sasquatch with a bident and an angry unicorn wench with a broken horn, neither with the ability to conjure defensive magic. They are still portrayed as terrible, terrible threats. As are airships ... against powerful horned ponies. Tell me again about that destructive pony magic.

-Ursa Minor was a sleeping baby with no malice or intellect. I rest my case.

-And about that lightning cloud argument: clownfish are still not stronger than sharks And if you would hook a pegasus and an adult dragon on a lightning grade voltage, who do you think would succumb after prolonged exposure? Last time I checked even Dash wasn't keen at getting struck. Do not mistake a predator's lack of determination for their upper limit. Meanwhile, those two dragons were tanking the whole freaking cloud without any chance of evasion.

 

Intelligence and personality traits:

-If I place your soul inside a giant dragon would you be able to defeat a pony princess? Would adult Ember be able to do it? I believe so.

-Dragons aren't stupid. They have their trash the same as we humans do. We too have stereotypes like fat stupid Murricans and drunken Rusky communists. Thankfully these people aren't the majority.

 

Terrain:

-You told me what but not how? How exactly would a powerful pony be able to use terrain to her advantage, assuming they are not fighting a stupid lump of scales that would chase random ponies into icebergs, valleys, storms, or above marshes/bodies of water? This ain't Path of Exile. They don't have magic mines.

-And you know full well what would happen once the battle starts. Ponies are not resistant to firestorms and those things are pretty much AOE, air included. And before you mention cover: there is a reason why flamethrowers are used to clear bunkers and tunnels.

-Besides, a dragon only wants to pillage wealthy castles and cities, so what could this powerful pony do? When it comes to defending your country from monsters, you usually do not possess the luxury of choosing the battlefield.

On 9/19/2017 at 0:45 AM, The Artist Formerly Known As A.V. said:

 

At the risk of sounding like a complete noob, what does "CC" stand for?

Disables (also called crowd control, or CC) refer to any abilities or status effects that prevent, impede, or otherwise inhibit a Hero from acting. (1)

 

1.) https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Disable

[Hierok 11,832]

8 hours ago, Peter16373 said:

Pretty sure Starlight has shown time and time again she can now match Twilight without being angered anymore. So logically if you piss her off she would now be more powerful than roughly every character #19 and below. Also forgot to update the list on this thread.

Yes, but I'm sure if Twilight is pissed of she is more powerfull. She could not be stopped in the season 5 final because the spell was set really smart. If Twilight came back, she also changed the past. So before she even saw Starlight she had lost. 

[Aethylynn 45]

One thing I have noticed in this argument is the tendency to compare generic dragons against specific individuals. Not really an apt comparison. Starlight may be powerful, but she is not typical of unicorns. How do you think a generic unicorn would fare against a generic dragon? As of yet, there are no individual dragons depicted as being powerful enough to match against individuals like Discord or Tirek, but it wouldn't be difficult to create one. With the whisk of a pen, I could create a dragon so powerful, it could kill all the creatures on that list with a single fart (if it ate enough beans ).

Another thing to consider is numbers. Alicorns are powerful, but they number a grand total of five, whereas dragons number in the thousands, and regular ponies, in the millions. A more worthwhile comparison would be to pit the entire might of dragonkind against the entire might of Equestria. That would be an argument worth having.

[heavens-champion 1,905]

2 hours ago, zaighster said:

With the whisk of a pen, I could create a dragon so powerful, it could kill all the creatures on that list with a single fart (if it ate enough beans ).

I am guilty of actually finding this funny. If only because the thought of Nightmare Moon being defeated by the flatulence of a dragon is funny... but still disgusting.

[EpicEnergy 23,238]

It would be unwise to underestimate dragons' capabilities, especially when they are together.