Characters With Informed Attributes

[Castle Bleck 19,167]

Master Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts might as well be a villain in a Dakari-King Mykan fic.

 

His "good, but flawed, intentions"? A glorified male Maleficent committing so many non-balance, pro-Darkness atrocities and disregarding (and/or even mocking) the people who suffer from them.

 

His "tactical brilliance"? Having the entire story silver-plattered to him (e.g.: so many retcons in his favor, just about everyone else becoming implausibly dumber so he can "manipulate" them, etc.).

 

IMO, his only legitimately impressive feats (i.e., ones that don't involve fail writing) have been -- 1 -- his epic, final-boss-style debut in the Birth By Sleep teaser and -- 2 -- being voiced by Leonard Nimoy (R.I.P.).

Edited March 4, 2018 by A.V.

[Yellow Diamond 7,564]

Quite a few characters in Star Wars tend to have informed attributes. This is especially the case in the prequels: Obi-Wan Kenobi is treated as a master strategist and nicknamed "The Negotiator" -- but his plans rarely amount to anything other than charging headlong into danger. I reckon the problem can be drawn back to George Lucas who, while excellent at world building, relies heavily on telling rather than showing.

[Denim&Venöm 16,515]

So from what I'm gathering, these are characters who were told are one thing, but are acting as another. 

Oh how I can just site references of this in pro-wrestling. Here. I'll even make a bullet point list.

• Shane Mcmahon: son of the chairman. Commissioner of the Tuesday night B-show. Implied to be a good guy authority figure. Leads by example. Willing to fight rather than hide behind security. Stunt crazy dare devil. Preaches fairness and earning opportunity. Yet goes overboard on punishing the shows villains. Willing to break his own rules to do so. Steals the spot light from his own roster by inserting himself into main event matches. Has tunnel vision when focused on an adversary. Makes decisions without considering the consequences. And gives out random opportunities anyway.
• Randy Orton. Prestigious 3rd generation star. Popular with the fans. Portrayed as an anti-hero. Yet insults fans and wrestlers on twitter. Implied to be a violent sociopath. Allies with his enemies, earning their trust, only to stab them in the back, and do worse acts then they've ever done.
• Roman Reigns. Portrayed as a solemn, stone faced, anti-hero, bad ass. The company's next big star. The odds overcoming, monster slayer. Yet slings insults like a school yard bully. Doesn't rush out to help his tag team brethren when they're in trouble. Doesn't rush out to help anyone. Retires a beloved veteran for the heck of it. Looses a match, but then tries to commit vehicular homicide on his opponent. Still portrayed as a good guy. Oh and he failed a drug test. As champion. 
• An old one, Muhammad Hassan. Speaking out against the discrimination Arab-Americans have faced since the 9/11 attacks, wishing for fairness and equality. Decides to attack all the good guys and vows to destroy america anyways. 
• Vince Mcmahon. Power hungry, megalomaniac ruler of the WWE. Been a sadistic war lord for over 20 years. Yet when his son is attacked, and then he gets attacked and beaten, the audience is supposed to sympathize with him as the victim, when he's done even worse things to the heroes of the company? 

 

[Yellow Diamond 7,564]

45 minutes ago, Denim&Venom said:

So from what I'm gathering, these are characters who were told are one thing, but are acting as another.

It works out that way more often than not. TV Tropes has a robust summary of various tropes which fall under Informed Attributes. In essence, informed abilities/attributes violate the principle of "show, don't tell".

[Megas 27,064]

Ultra Magnus - Supposedly One of the biggest badasses of the Autobots, one of the top guys as well as one of Prime's closest friends. Does nothing noteworthy in the entire movie and only serves to job to Galvatron. 

1 hour ago, Denim&Venom said:

So from what I'm gathering, these are characters who were told are one thing, but are acting as another. 

Oh how I can just site references of this in pro-wrestling. Here. I'll even make a bullet point list.

• Roman Reigns. Portrayed as a solemn, stone faced, anti-hero, bad ass. The company's next big star. The odds overcoming, monster slayer. Yet slings insults like a school yard bully. Doesn't rush out to help his tag team brethren when they're in trouble. Doesn't rush out to help anyone. Retires a beloved veteran for the heck of it. Looses a match, but then tries to commit vehicular homicide on his opponent. Still portrayed as a good guy. Oh and he failed a drug test. As champion. 

My favorite is how he's supposed to be an unstoppable monster, but then when he gets attacked in the Royal Rumble 2016, instead of fighting through the pain he lets the medics escort him to the back to "rest"

Bear in mind, two years ago Daniel Bryan, a smaller, weaker looking guy, was hit with a double finisher in WM 30(after being injured earlier in the in the show), only to have him crawl out of the fucking stretcher to finish his fucking match

[Denim&Venöm 16,515]

10 minutes ago, Kiryu-Chan said:

Ultra Magnus - Supposedly One of the biggest badasses of the Autobots, one of the top guys as well as one of Prime's closest friends. Does nothing noteworthy in the entire movie and only serves to job to Galvatron. 

My favorite is how he's supposed to be an unstoppable monster, but then when he gets attacked in the Royal Rumble 2016, instead of fighting through the pain he lets the medics escort him to the back to "rest"

Bear in mind, two years ago Daniel Bryan, a smaller, weaker looking guy, was hit with a double finisher in WM 30(after being injured earlier in the in the show), only to have him crawl out of the fucking stretcher to finish his fucking match

That's another thing. He lacks the fighting spirit of other good guys. He's being positioned as the next top guy, but there's nothing heroic about him. Even Stone Cold, the biggest anti-hero in all of wrestling, earned his stripes by enduring tortuous punishment and refusing to yield.

Roman winning would've already been met w/ mixed results, but him being stretchered out or 30 minutes and then returning is probably what doomed the prospects. Any potential for him to earn his stripes before the fans was what was really taken out of the arena on a stretcher. 

17 minutes ago, Kiryu-Chan said:

Ultra Magnus - Supposedly One of the biggest badasses of the Autobots, one of the top guys as well as one of Prime's closest friends. Does nothing noteworthy in the entire movie and only serves to job to Galvatron. 

I presume this is the bay films and not the 1986 film or one of the animated series. 

[Megas 27,064]

17 minutes ago, Denim&Venom said:

That's another thing. He lacks the fighting spirit of other good guys. He's being positioned as the next top guy, but there's nothing heroic about him. Even Stone Cold, the biggest anti-hero in all of wrestling, earned his stripes by enduring tortuous punishment and refusing to yield.

Roman winning would've already been met w/ mixed results, but him being stretchered out or 30 minutes and then returning is probably what doomed the prospects. Any potential for him to earn his stripes before the fans was what was really taken out of the arena on a stretcher. 

I presume this is the bay films and not the 1986 film or one of the animated series. 

Nope, I'm talking about the 86 movie. Ultra Magnus isn't even in the Bay films

[Denim&Venöm 16,515]

7 minutes ago, Kiryu-Chan said:

Nope, I'm talking about the 86 movie. Ultra Magnus isn't even in the Bay films

Wasn't sure since I quit watching the bay films after the second one. And yeah, I see where you're coming from, but at least w/ Magnus, him not meeting expectations served to drive the plot forward, showing that even though he was a senior member of the auto-bots, he still wasn't qualified, and that Hot Rod was the one who should've been leading. 

[Castle Bleck 19,167]

Also from Kingdom Hearts: Eraqus, who's supposed to be seen as a narrow-minded zealot for being anti-Darkness, pro-Light.

 

Given what we've seen both forces do throughout the series, he actually has plenty of good reason to feel that way; if anything, his actual decision-making is his real flaw, IMO.

Edited December 25, 2017 by A.V.

[Yellow Diamond 7,564]

5 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:

• Randy Orton. Prestigious 3rd generation star. Popular with the fans. Portrayed as an anti-hero. Yet insults fans and wrestlers on twitter. Implied to be a violent sociopath. Allies with his enemies, earning their trust, only to stab them in the back, and do worse acts then they've ever done.

I'm a bit confused by this choice: aren't all those traits the sorts of things we'd expect from a wrestling anti-hero? I had the impression that Orton is massively over because he is supposed to be the loner sociopath character who snaps at a moment's notice. Steve Austin started off that way, too -- minus the "voices in my head" shtick.

[Denim&Venöm 16,515]

9 hours ago, Yellow Diamond said:

I'm a bit confused by this choice: aren't all those traits the sorts of things we'd expect from a wrestling anti-hero? I had the impression that Orton is massively over because he is supposed to be the loner sociopath character who snaps at a moment's notice. Steve Austin started off that way, too -- minus the "voices in my head" shtick.

Oh don't get confused. The fact that he's popular doesn't belay the fact that he's portrayed as a good guy, but still does things that should be considered villainous, both on and off camera. Even Steve Austin never quite went to the degree Orton has. You could still kinda tell he was on the side of good, where Orton is more ambiguous.

 There are plenty of wrestlers in WWE who are also villains in the narrative, but get cheered like heroes by the audience. That still doesn't make them proper good guys either.

[Megas 27,064]

2 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:

There are plenty of wrestlers in WWE who are also villains in the narrative, but get cheered like heroes by the audience. That still doesn't make them proper good guys either.

A lot of this also has to do with the fact that there are hardly any good or interesting faces while lots of the heels are fun and entertaining

[Denim&Venöm 16,515]

2 minutes ago, Kiryu-Chan said:

A lot of this also has to do with the fact that there are hardly any good or interesting faces while lots of the heels are fun and entertaining

It's a symptom of the poor writing the company has been struggling with for seemingly the past decade. If a good guy isn't getting the proper reaction, turn him villain. Then again, they're writing for 8 hours of TV each and every week, bare minimum. With no off season. Ever. And the end results of all that writing is often changed multiple times, as the show is in progress. I think the staff is just burnt out, and what little they do make is hastily changed by the chairman. Long term planning is not this company's strong suit.

As well as a somewhat related lack of interesting characters, good or bad. 

 

[Castle Bleck 19,167]

18 hours ago, Denim&Venom said:

Looses a match, but then tries to commit vehicular homicide on his opponent.

 

To be fair, Strowman had committed his own share of ambulance-based brutality against Reigns.

 

Everything else about Reigns, though? Hard to argue with you there.

[Denim&Venöm 16,515]

4 minutes ago, A.V. said:

 

To be fair, Strowman had committed his own share of ambulance-based brutality against Reigns.

 

Everything else about Reigns, though? Hard to argue with you there.

Yes, Strowman did brutally assault Roman over and over. And flipped an ambulance with him inside. But that was Strowman's job as a monstrous villain. Roman was supposed to be the hero. And he sunk to the bad guy's level. Arguably sank even lower, cause him trying to kill Strowman while he was inside the ambulance not only showed him to be just as callous, it also showed him as a sore looser.

Yeah, if it was a screwy, cheating finish, it'd make more sense. But Roman lost fair and square. And he still went off the rails.

[Castle Bleck 19,167]

The Pony Of Shadows from Shadow Play.

 

Backstory-wise? A Vaatu-like Greater-Scope Villain with significant -- if indirect -- effects on the Pillars Of Equestria, the Elements/Tree Of Harmony itself, etc.

 

In terms of actual screentime? A complete jobber who seemed to prefer just monologuing versus actually getting s*** done, and -- unlike most, if not all, the other villains -- he never even got a Near Villain Victory toward his goal.

Edited December 27, 2017 by A.V.