Why god(s) why?

[Sheogorath 1,155]

I wish to keep this discussion civil, so count to ten before posting if you feel upset about the topic please =)

This question has to it more facets than the obvious first glance might imply. And today I pose an another facet than the obvious.

For ages before Christianity mankind already had gods for everything under the sun, and usually one that was the sun. These unnecessary creations used to claim authority over knowledge of the world around us have given us nothing a community without gods would not have offered, except perhaps some unnecessary persecution and other grief.

People have tried to appease gods with sacrifices and tribute, with prayers and wars, murder as well as acts of kindness, but it has never resulted to anything better, no gods of the old, when forgotten have become enraged and wiped out mankind, no gods when insulted by infidels have come to their own defense, and nor will they ever.

Killing a goat didn't make it rain, dancing and hollering didn't make it rain, praying for month on end didn't make it rain any faster. And when it finally does, as it is inevitable on a planet mostly covered in water, these poor individuals then think that all those sacrifices paid off, art of ignorance at work.

Gods do not add to our understanding of the world around us, they only complicate things as then you have to make the excuses for them as "god(s) work in mysterious ways" when it is nothing but coincidental nature. Tragic thing is that these same people who seek clarity and guidance usually only get to their hard lives only more things to spend resources on, more confusion as the "answer" given is just arbitrary un-affected nature with an imaginary friend "controlling it".

So why people go with this "God" explanation so eagerly? It is rather easy thing to explain, we are social animals, and it gives a sense of empowerment to people when they think that with the help of others they can try to negotiate against the forces of nature. And then even with failure, to them it is just a poor negotiation where you win some or lose some, despite results being the same every time: random.

When finally the chance gives them a break, they think "god is good", only enforcing their observation bias unwittingly.

So in the end it is rather sad to see people wasting their resources, act violently in fear of God, or act violently in defense of their own delusion, or act violently under the guise of holy war when they are but puppets in the hands of some greedy individuals who can't get along. All those good people, who could do good things together as a community pitted against each others over small silly things that someone's overly complex piece of fiction got differently than some other persons fiction.

It's like Star Wars fans declaring jihad on Trekkies. Literally. And that doesn't happen because those two fictions do not claim any authority. Only difference there is the claim to authority.

However in the end, sci-fi like Star Trek works as a better guide to life even than most religions, with is prime directive and other lessons. Funny how several thousand years of culture and development in art and fiction gives us better fiction huh?

[Dragonshy 2,305]

May I recommend a book? "Beyond Religion" by the Dalai Lama. Now I promise you it isn't shoving a certain religion down your throat. In fact, it lists a lot of the the things you are saying.

 

Actually never mind it. I do agree with you by the way!

Edited June 13, 2012 by Dragonzoid

[Strider Hiryu 116]

It is because of humans need to understand everything. Ever heard of the show ancient aliens? People what to understand everything that ever happened. Since the big bang theory is a theory, it is not the answer. People want to know how anything and everything started, and religion is just one of these ways. People don't really fight in the name of God, because that is just a name. They fight in the name of they're shared beliefs. Even though I see it as stupid, the things they do were passed down since religion started. Also, did you know that the first record creation story was in a place far away from where

Christianity first began, and it shared a lot of similarities? I find it interesting that most of us came up with the same thing.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Strider Hiryu

[Colon Leftbracket 971]

Well, let's get a few words in before the impending argument gets the thread locked.

(Unfortunately it always happens)

 

I agree with what is written here. I find it a bit tragic that so much resources have been swallowed up over a belief system that is most likely false.

[Sheogorath 1,155]

---

Even though I see it as stupid, the things they do were passed down since religion started. Also, did you know that the first record creation story was in a place far away from where

Christianity first began, and it shared a lot of similarities? I find it interesting that most of us came up with the same thing.

 

Well, of course when creating religions, most oftentimes the "sages" and "prophets" loaned from old ones many of the elements.

I hasn't been created from a blank slate after all

[Typhoid Libby 1,265]

No original OP, no Post. Edited June 15, 2012 by Enginseer Libertina

[Starshine 16,333]

People what to understand everything that ever happened. Since the big bang theory is a theory, it is not the answer.

Just to clear things up here, scientific theory is not by any means the same as our daily-life theory. Scientific theory is and will stay giving the same result when you recreated the experiment. While daily-life theory is nothing but hypothesis.

 

People want to know how anything and everything started, and religion is just one of these ways. People don't really fight in the name of God, because that is just a name. They fight in the name of they're shared beliefs.

The sad thing is lots of people are very eager to use their God's name to wage war on others who didn't share the same God

[Strider Hiryu 116]

Well, of course when creating religions, most oftentimes the "sages" and "prophets" loaned from old ones many of the elements.

I hasn't been created from a blank slate after all

 

Well I know that, but roman catholic came before technology was available to get to those far away places. It's strange

 

[/left]

Just to clear things up here, scientific theory is not by any means the same as our daily-life theory. Scientific theory is and will stay giving the same result when you recreated the experiment. While daily-life theory is nothing but hypothesis.

But there is no real way to test the big bang theory. Unless we can create another universe Edited June 13, 2012 by Strider Hiryu

[Klopp 2,050]

In light of the fact that this topic touches base on am extremely sensitive topic, I'd like to remind you all to please keep your tempers at a respectable level. Remember, everything in this topic is merely opinions. If one person disagrees with your views, ignore them. Nothing is forcing you to respond in a derogatory manner. As soon as the insults start flying, this thread is going to be shut down.

 

Also, keep in mind the first rule of the forums: Love and tolerate everypony.

If someone breaks that rule, please report them and things will be taken care of.

 

Basically what I'm saying here is:

• Respect the religious views of everyone else.
• Don't be a prick.

That is all. Have a nice day! :3

[ToridAkbolto 170]

The need to explain why when you have not researched the matter at hand will often lead to illogical explanations. However, as demonstrated in the past, illogical explanations of why things happen can be widely accepted, so long as those explanations are administered by a proper authority.

[Colon Leftbracket 971]

 

It's like Star Wars fans declaring jihad on Trekkies. Literally. And that doesn't happen because those two fictions do not claim any authority. Only difference there is the claim to authority.

However in the end, sci-fi like Star Trek works as a better guide to life even than most religions, with is prime directive and other lessons. Funny how several thousand years of culture and development in art and fiction gives us better fiction huh?

Funny you should mention that...

 

Did you know that Jediism in some areas is realized as an official religion?

I find that quite interesting because Jediism (although obviously not real seeing that it is inspired from film) isn't a bad belief system.

 

There is no emotion, there is peace

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge

There is no passion, there is serenity

There is no chaos, there is harmony

There is no death, there is The Force.

 

Not too bad of a code of conduct in my opinion.

Just take the movie fiction as a metaphor for life and you have a nice way of life to live by.

 

I wouldn't be too surprised if down the line if some very dedicated Bronies wouldn't try a similar thing with MLPFIM fiction. Somehow work Love and Tolerance and The Elements of Harmony into some life code of conduct metaphor and you could have Bronyism!

[Typhoid Libby 1,265]

No original OP, no Post. Edited June 15, 2012 by Enginseer Libertina

[Bronium 512]

Since the big bang theory is a theory, it is not the answer.

Well, (in addition to what Dreamwalker said) in scientific terms a theory is an explanation for a phenomena. Essentially, it's an explanation backed by lots of evidence. Now I'm not saying that The Big Band Theory is necessarily right but it is widely accepted by many scientists across the world.

 

A bit off topic I know

[Swordfishtrombone 384]

It's a big world out there, we have fear of it. Through believing in a deity or god, we will give our lives purpose and direction, make it seem like we really matter and live with everlasting hope. A god is something to take comfort in, the idea that we, our superior race, group or tribe, are chosen and the outsiders are not, we are gifted, protected, good and they are sinful, cruel and bad.

Of course, they're thinking the same thing too, and of course, not all religions display this theme, but that is a common theme, I have observed. Yet why humans are given the power to say gods word, dictate his will, choose his friends and select his enemies, nevermind how these humans were chosen in the first place, is still very unclear to me, and leaves me wondering, why? Who choose these men to tell us how to be? Who choose this book to tell us what to do? Who can say who's better and who's best? Behind every great god there is a greater man.

Fanatics work in mysterious ways...

Edited June 13, 2012 by Swordfishtrombone

[Colon Leftbracket 971]

Except Sith have got way more niftier websites.

 

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

 

And the code makes way more sense.

 

Yes, that code is called "Love And Tolerate"

In it, you love and tolerate everything.

And it's even called Bronyism.

 

Derp you. xD

 

Meh I'm not gonna argue Sith vs Jedi here, but I'll just say that both Codes can be clever metaphors to use in real life.

 

And I guess Derp me!

I was just saying I didn't think we actually took "Love and Tolerate" to a religious level yet. Like literally shaping your whole life around that mantra.

 

But I suppose we all in our own way take the fiction of MLPFIM and use its lessons metaphorically in real life.

 

Fiction is a VERY powerful thing! The world of Equestria may not be physically real, but its life lessons can resonate through our minds for years to come and we may not even know it. Hell it already has driven us to make a website dedicated to it and we come together and watch new episodes like a church goer to a Sunday service!

 

On the Internet, fandoms are the new religion!

 

I have a saying I wrote a while back.

 

"As a writer, one has omnipotent power over their world of fiction, but when they leave they'll be surprised to see how much power they have in reality."

[Typhoid Libby 1,265]

No original OP, no Post. Edited June 15, 2012 by Enginseer Libertina

[Sheogorath 1,155]

I think we're all confused here, I'm still not sure what this thread was about originally.

 

 

The post originally was about "Why to add unnecessary complexity to situations where it serves no purpose" And referred to human tendency to think that there is some sentient force it can negotiate with, and it was more of a conversation opener than argument in particular.

[Tom 891]

The post originally was about "Why to add unnecessary complexity to situations where it serves no purpose" And referred to human tendency to think that there is some sentient force it can negotiate with, and it was more of a conversation opener than argument in particular.

 

Well that clears that up.

 

I believe gods were the simplest answer to why we are here and also the easiest way to explain our purpose living here on Earth, so that's why people came up with them ages ago and they've stuck around since.

 

Also as I've heard in various places, religion is the basis for morality. I don't agree with that myself but it does explain why people have faith in religions and gods.

[Croaks 251]

Because sometimes you have to realize that sometimes, people can't just say, "BECAUSE GOD WANTS IT THAT WAY MHM."

Whenever I talk about god and/or religion, I explain everything around it.

 

What I see lots of people think is that one religion has a view in god, and if another religion believes in the same god, both of their views of god are the same, but when really, that's not true. Sometimes that's just simple thinking.

 

I like to find logical explanations for things, but also keep my religion in mind as well.

 

:/

Edited June 13, 2012 by Engie (Croaks)

[Doctor Whooves™ 332]

And here comes the Doctor to express his opinion, whether you like it or not.

 

I personally think religion was simply devised as an explanation, so that settlers could predict things. Also, when survival isn't the only purpose anymore, what do you do?

 

Find another one.

Where you put this faith is irrelevant, but you should not force it on other people or use it to prove others wrong unless you have proof.

 

In the regards of science, I agree that it is completely manmade, the universe rediscovering itself, a perception of reality.

In a way, it's just like religion, just because of the logical reasoning behind it more people accept it as true.

But remember, even the laws that we take for absolute can be disproven, like when ancient greeks thought that space was filled with Aether.

If, for example, faster-than-light travel is invented, Einstein was quite a bit wrong, wasn't he?

 

One last point, if someone were to tell me their god exists, they can truthfully say that I can't disprove them, but seeing as they are making the claim, they are the ones who should provide proof.

Otherwise we'd go nowhere.

[Lady Rarity Pony 4,892]

Loaded question.

 

There's not really anything to discuss here beyond "God does exist, you're delusional" and "God doesn't exist, you're delusional".

[Bronium 512]

^ I think it's a discussion as to what benefits is there a religion can provide that a secular organization can't.

 

Oh, on topic and contributing to the discussion. Any religious wars also have ulterior motives. The crusades weren't completely about religion. It was just a convenient excuse. Just remember that guys.

[Sheogorath 1,155]

Loaded question.

 

There's not really anything to discuss here beyond "God does exist, you're delusional" and "God doesn't exist, you're delusional".

 

If you refer to my opening post, it was not a loaded question but a hypothetical one not begging for an answer but rather observations, of which there now has been provided plenty.

[Croaks 251]

Sometimes, lots of people don't look too deep into things.

I mean, if you study Christianity (as an example) from beginning to end and you want proof but don't find anything, you're going to assume there is no proof. However, lots of other religions (still examples) have explanations, or at least vague hints of explanations. Some have proof.

But, like stated before, there is no "official" or "certain" way to prove that god is real of fake, except for a holy book. But even then, there's always suspicion by others that some people twisted things or edited things in and out or no exact proof.

Let's say Islam (still an example) has lots of things in the holy book which somehow agree with science. This could give the impression that people know what they're talking about and that it counts as proof, or it could give the impression that things were mistaken for other things. There are always going to be different sides.

I dunno, everybody believe what you want to believe. Different strokes for different folks.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Engie (Croaks)

[Sheogorath 1,155]

After a discussion with Feld0 we decided to split the science versus religion / science = religion debate to its own thread.

This thread here was more about the sacrifices and cost of religion and the futility of human attempts to influence the nature.

 

Instead the original point got derailed and people didn't even stop to think that while children starve, and people go unemployed, the pope sits on golden throne in golden room. And this is true to all religious leaders living in splendor, true of all mega churches that ask donations from the people and turn places of worship and contemplation into loud light shows instead of offering anything in terms of guidance besides phrases from old book.

 

Then the people who are deluded thing they can pray away hurricane or give money to the temple to make sure tsunami doesn't wipe away your house. and when it still does it, then it is "God punishing your community for having gays in it" or "gods thinking you were not worthy enough as you didn't give enough".

 

These people are duped to sacrifice from their little resources, and they see it okay. Never even really thinking that it is that tribute that pays pope his chair and that obnoxious televangelist his 5th Ferrari and matching silk tie.

 

And this is what I was wondering, why is this okay? Why would humans do this and think it changes anything, it is not God on that chair or in that Ferrari, it is some jackass who lives from hatred and fear of others.

 

This was not about proof of what is real, this is a matter of what is happening and how people get abused in their times of trouble.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Pencils