Plotholes: are you in denial or not?

[Titan Rising 2,156]

using that get out jail card is almost as bad as throwing love and tolerance around.

 

Many things can be said about the things we do in the internet is useless. So what? I'm doing it and I'm not gonna intimidated by a lame panic phrase.

 

An "I don't know." would have been more forthwith and cordial than that cowardly phrase.

 

And you go around looking down on people making fun of you about liking "gay ponies" (yeah, you just went into the same calibre as those guys). For shame man.

 

I didn't call it useless or that it's not worth talking about, your tone just seems as if you're really criticizing the shows developers much more than necessary for a cartoon is all.

[ceresbane 61]

Well, it's either that, or you get a perfect character, OR a an evil character. Pure and simple. Since this is a kids show, they will always make the good things come out better than the bad, but this doesn't mean the bad will be left alone. How would YOU feel if the character was just as complex as, say, Dr. House? (and if you've seen the show and the character, you KNOW what I'm talking about). That guy has as many flaws as virtues, but most of the times, the bad ones rise first. But hey, it's a medical drama series. This, however, is something else. In fact, why don't you go ask any of the writers and see what THEY say? No, this isn't an insult or anything. I'm pretty sure they WOULD answer you. Already the writers have great accomplishment for getting depth into the charatcters. The fact that all of the mane 6 show things that totally oppose them as they normally means they aren't perfect, EVEN WHEN, they are SUPPOSED to represent something. The elements chose the ponies each one did, because each pony REPRESENTS the element in partucular BEST, not PERFECTLY. Otherwise, it you have perfect characters...and those don't attract so much anymore, UNLESS it's the intention, which I believe it's not the writers'. Fact is, with the opposite characteristics of each pony (and I don't necessarily mean when they are discorded, just their normal flaws), you could make A SHOW BY ITSELF, just with those.

 

On to the them of plotholes, well, tell me ONE, just ONE program EVER that DID'T have plotholes. If you can, I'll shut my mouth. But until then, any program itself is BOUND to have the plotholes. Even the most explained things have something like that. I don't think even the legendary J.R.R.Tolkien, known for having explained every single thing in his created world, escaped it. The point is to make as less plot holes as possible, sure. But this is a FANTASY world. Meaning, they don't have to explain much things. Twilight suddenly having a brother? She mentioned it herself, she had been distanced from Shining, thus memory can easily fail. No guards after changeling attack? Well, after Celestia was DEFEATED and the Mane 6 were on to the elements...well...I'm pretty sure ALL of the guards were called in to the castle, only to get trapped by Chrysalis and co. RD abandoning people? Well, she is pretty damm impatient. It's not leaving behind when you're not hurting anyone on the process. Plus, Fluttershy herself didn't want to go, and I'm sure RD knew this too. No one gets hurt. On The Last Roundup, let's mix RD's personality with the situation at hand. Do you HONESTLY think ANYONE at all, WOULD have stopped? Plus, It wasn't THAT much of a dangerous situation. If it had been MUCH more, then yes. But at that point, getting to Applejack was on everyone's mind. Otherwise, I don't think veryone would have followed that easy. AJ as a chronic liar? Well, she doesn't lie, more than omits the truth. And the only REAL lie she told, was because of Pinkie Pie's surprise party. Everything else was because she was a) too stubborn or b ) too worried about others. What would have happened if Rarity HADN'T flown near the sun? Well, for one, her final trick wouldn't have been done. The one with light. And two, even if she had won, I'm pretty sureTwilight and co. would have sermoned her. And if she also had any respect and care for RD, would have bawled her eyes out and crawled begging for forgiveness to Rainbow.

 

 

 

Also, dude, chillax! At elast if you don't agree with it, don't say it like that! That wasn't a "formal" way to go around it. That was just mean. And also, the hell? comparing this to the one thing you compared doesn't even make sense! That thing deals more with the judgement of people and the feelings of people, not this!

 

righto. I've seen it everywhere. To just suddenly spout that phrase in a heated debate about ANYTHING is just asinine and pretty disrespectful.

 

And indeed shows as much ignorance as the haters we oh so align ourselves against in a mob of passive-aggressive circle jerkary (guess where love and tolerance came from)

 

But finally hearing some points of merit.

 

Let's crack this open. The element they best represent. that was your point.

And you justify it all very well.. I could throw in the conjecture card as there is nothing (besides the dragonshy one-thats touch and go) that suggests said conclusion.

 

However, best and perfect are similar in nature. And I could throw the AJ and RD element switch theory in the air. But my main point towards that is that the facts remain that as the BEST (as you would capitalise it) would suggest that they would be the LEAST likely to go against their element. And yet, they are in fact the most likely to go against those elements before anyone else.

 

Rarity for example. Generosity.

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHoRKRiPn1Q

 

She is not particularly rich. She is no noble or funded by some sugar daddy and her acts of generosity are always seeming purely exclusive to her friends only.

 

As the best pony (*trollface) for generousity. Shouldn't she be giving a little more to the community?

 

I can give other examples with the other mane 6 when challenged. But I don't think I need to, since you will get where I'm getting at.

 

@@AnonBrony,

 

I got three statements for ya.

 

Bad guys are like that because they hold themselves no limit, so it's okay for protagonist to be amoral?

 

Good guys are good guys because they give themselves limits, like say, loyalty limits them to prioritise friends over the goal.

 

Proven your point? nay. You proved mine. You just proved that you lack an understanding of how a child learns and thinks. A kid can always at least understand what it means to be sincere. To be a bitch like Rarity like she was in sonic rainboom. It was not a subtle pragmatic thing. It was screaming in your face!

Edited September 20, 2012 by ceresbane

[Arcanel 3,041]

righto. I've seen it everywhere. To just suddenly spout that phrase in a heated debate about ANYTHING is just asinine and pretty disrespectful.

 

And indeed shows as much ignorance as the haters we oh so align ourselves against in a mob of passive-aggressive circle jerkary (guess where love and tolerance came from)

 

But finally hearing some points of merit.

 

Let's crack this open. The element they best represent. that was your point.

And you justify it all very well.. I could throw in the conjecture card as there is nothing (besides the dragonshy one-thats touch and go) that suggests said conclusion.

 

However, best and perfect are similar in nature. And I could throw the AJ and RD element switch theory in the air. But my main point towards that is that the facts remain that as the BEST (as you would capitalise it) would suggest that they would be the LEAST likely to go against their element. And yet, they are in fact the most likely to go against those elements before anyone else.

 

Rarity for example. Generosity.

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHoRKRiPn1Q

 

She is not particularly rich. She is no noble or funded by some sugar daddy and her acts of generosity are always seeming purely exclusive to her friends only.

 

As the best pony (*trollface) for generousity. Shouldn't she be giving a little more to the community?

 

I can give other examples with the other mane 6 when challenged. But I don't think I need to, since you will get where I'm getting at.

 

Actually, the "asinine and disrespectful" answer would have been "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit!" ant that one is used as a joke! Hollowshield chosses not to overanalyze the show. That's it. He's not disrespecting anyone who does. Also, the Love and Tolerance thing is the mantra most of us try to go, more specifically, as a community, but guess what, we are human beings. If people expect bronies to be all sun and shine, they are wrong. I'm betting to believe most of them ARE nice, but some aren't. Pure and simple. But eh, this is just my personal opinion, and honestly, it's a subject MUCH more complicated, difficult to discuss and talk about, and it escapes the topic at hand, so let's just leave it at that, shall we? *holds hoof out for shake*

 

But anyway, on to the matter at hand! The conjecture card could be thrown yes. Then again, technically, all we are doing IS especulation. After all, unless we ask the writers themselves, we can never know exactly for sure what was on their minds, now can we?

 

And finally, I THINK you are wrong on one aspect. BEing the one who best represents, DOESN'T mean you're supposed to be the...er..least of it's opposite. In real life, and as we have seen, many of the things the ponies are in their personalities and the things they go throgh, most of them, have a relation to things in real life, there are many people who are opposite INSIDE. What does this mean? It means that, even though they have a great virtue, it's opposite, might be strong as well. Example, Dr. House. He's a doctor, and the stereotype says, that as one, he should have people skills and be nice to others on the job. Does he do any of those? Eenope! He's a bastard, jerk, to every patient he comes across. Because ironically, even though his job is to save people, he's misanthropist. AKA, he hates humans. Ironic isn't it? However, if there was an element of, let's say, health, he'd be on the top choosings. Why? Because he can cure and diagnose like almost no one eslse can. Pure and simple. But, to use a more..er...related character, let's take Pinkie Pie. As the spirit of laughter, she's supposed to represent happiness as she goes. And she does that with interest to take from. However, whenver everything goes down, her "other side" appears, that is pretty much the complete opposite. Why was Pinkie Pie chosen as the Element of Laughter? Simple. Is there ANYONE ELSE who can laugh, be happy, and just explode with joyfulness as her? Nope. Even though, she can be completely the opposite. For all we know, the characters are chosen if what they do is the best among them, regardless of the rest of the things. MAYBE the word represent is not necessarily the best word to use, but it's the best one I thought for that.

[duidamasterXD 9,626]

 

 

great story?

 

guards up the wazzo all across canterlot. changelings attack... suddenly no guards.

 

rarity suggests they support RD in young fliers competition. Later crushes her confidence by outshining her with no regard to her insecurities. She just happened to fly too close to the sun. But if she didn't? the hypocrisy would be even more clear.

 

AJ is a chronic liar

 

RD is constantly abandoning friends (dragon mountain RD reccomends they leave flutters behind. last round up... RD says to carry on after rarity and pinkie fall off the carriage)

 

just to errr... name a few.

 

Butthurt?

inb4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pFvWJ89Tgg

 

About your issues with dash representing loyalty, the problem is that it is inherantly one of the easiest elements to twist against itself. In Dragonshy? She could be being loyal to equestria by trying to make sure the dragon was dealt with ASAP. Also think of Cloudsdale, her hometown. It's up in the sky where the smoke is, making it unsafe to fly and even to breathe. She could have handled it better but Fluttershy up until she solved the problem was a massive impediment to their mission. And as for the last roundup? Catching AJ was clearly the priority

[ceresbane 61]

Actually, the "asinine and disrespectful" answer would have been "It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit!" ant that one is used as a joke! Hollowshield chosses not to overanalyze the show. That's it. He's not disrespecting anyone who does. Also, the Love and Tolerance thing is the mantra most of us try to go, more specifically, as a community, but guess what, we are human beings. If people expect bronies to be all sun and shine, they are wrong. I'm betting to believe most of them ARE nice, but some aren't. Pure and simple. But eh, this is just my personal opinion, and honestly, it's a subject MUCH more complicated, difficult to discuss and talk about, and it escapes the topic at hand, so let's just leave it at that, shall we? *holds hoof out for shake*

 

But anyway, on to the matter at hand! The conjecture card could be thrown yes. Then again, technically, all we are doing IS especulation. After all, unless we ask the writers themselves, we can never know exactly for sure what was on their minds, now can we?

 

And finally, I THINK you are wrong on one aspect. BEing the one who best represents, DOESN'T mean you're supposed to be the...er..least of it's opposite. In real life, and as we have seen, many of the things the ponies are in their personalities and the things they go throgh, most of them, have a relation to things in real life, there are many people who are opposite INSIDE. What does this mean? It means that, even though they have a great virtue, it's opposite, might be strong as well. Example, Dr. House. He's a doctor, and the stereotype says, that as one, he should have people skills and be nice to others on the job. Does he do any of those? Eenope! He's a bastard, jerk, to every patient he comes across. Because ironically, even though his job is to save people, he's misanthropist. AKA, he hates humans. Ironic isn't it? However, if there was an element of, let's say, health, he'd be on the top choosings. Why? Because he can cure and diagnose like almost no one eslse can. Pure and simple. But, to use a more..er...related character, let's take Pinkie Pie. As the spirit of laughter, she's supposed to represent happiness as she goes. And she does that with interest to take from. However, whenver everything goes down, her "other side" appears, that is pretty much the complete opposite. Why was Pinkie Pie chosen as the Element of Laughter? Simple. Is there ANYONE ELSE who can laugh, be happy, and just explode with joyfulness as her? Nope. Even though, she can be completely the opposite. For all we know, the characters are chosen if what they do is the best among them, regardless of the rest of the things. MAYBE the word represent is not necessarily the best word to use, but it's the best one I thought for that.

 

ok... there seems to be a major ass theme here that is completely getting... out of hoof...

 

You are all suggesting that alot of these examples aren't obvious that no one but a very highly analytical brony can see.

 

Dude. People make fun of it in comic and fanfic. A lot of them are featured in Equestria daily. There are blindingly obvious plotholes and those are the ones I refer to (hence why you know them and attempt to explain them)

 

 

your house point is a lil hit and miss.

 

Okay, its fine if people are pricks and not all rainbows and sunshine (i've said this dude!).

But if it completely contradicts canon, that is called a plot hole.

 

If doctor house, was a terrible doctor. Not just in the sense that he's a prick. But occassionally doing horrid acts of malpractice. You have yourself a flawed character. And following the mlp logic of just because it appears rather than a real reason.

 

The mane 6 have those kinds of flaws to their character. AJ isn't honest, RD isn't loyal., Rarity is a bitch (greedy-but also.) .

 

Pinkie pie point is valid (because morality is not involved). But when you apply it to others and then considering that logic.

 

You HAVE a protagonist that acts like a villain. You have our heroes cheating in a race against each other.

 

okay let me random rewrite the moral of running of the leaves. Instead of learning to be honest and loyal and being good sports.

What if the moral, was RD to stop from cheating with her wings. And for AJ to not leave her friend when she's in trouble.

 

because guess what? friendship also means to LEARN FROM EACH OTHER.

 

About your issues with dash representing loyalty, the problem is that it is inherantly one of the easiest elements to twist against itself. In Dragonshy? She could be being loyal to equestria by trying to make sure the dragon was dealt with ASAP. Also think of Cloudsdale, her hometown. It's up in the sky where the smoke is, making it unsafe to fly and even to breathe. She could have handled it better but Fluttershy up until she solved the problem was a massive impediment to their mission. And as for the last roundup? Catching AJ was clearly the priority

 

*commence trollface.

 

even though RD can fly faster than the speed of sound... catching up with AJ is her priority as opposed to two ponies fall off a speeding carriage (that shit hurts man, you're guaranteed some sinificant injury). Something is horribly wrong there,

[Otter 1,942]

You seem to be of the persuasion that all characters have to be absolutely perfect in a kid's show, or else it's a "plothole". That simply isn't true. Tell me, have you ever seen a perfect person? Of course not. It would be delusional to think that such a person exists, because they just don't. Everyone has flaws, and it's refreshing to see a kid's show address this, instead of portraying the characters as "gods among men".

[ceresbane 61]

You seem to be of the persuasion that all characters have to be absolutely perfect in a kid's show, or else it's a "plothole". That simply isn't true. Tell me, have you ever seen a perfect person? Of course not. It would be delusional to think that such a person exists, because they just don't. Everyone has flaws, and it's refreshing to see a kid's show address this, instead of portraying the characters as "gods among men".

 

oh you are waaaay too early in the game to be throwin claims like that around good sir. The point you've made are borne from you being a little lazy and jumping to quick conclusions from a quick skin read.

 

you're ill-informed and as such your points are illegitimate.

 

because

a) your accusations are just wrong. not in the sense that your sujective point is wrong. It's more the fact that your facts are wrong and hence conclusions are wrong.

 

b)your points are already addressed, with more depth and thoroughness than you have.by others (including myself)

[Otter 1,942]

oh you are waaaay too early in the game to be throwin claims like that around good sir. The point you've made are borne from you being a little lazy and jumping to quick conclusions from a quick skin read.

 

you're ill-informed and as such your points are illegitimate.

 

because

a) your accusations are just wrong. not in the sense that your sujective point is wrong. It's more the fact that your facts are wrong and hence conclusions are wrong.

 

b)your points are already addressed, with more depth and thoroughness than you have.by others (including myself)

 

You make it sound as if I was insulting you with that post. I wasn't. I was simply putting in my two cents. Are you always this harsh and nasty to people?

Edited September 20, 2012 by HylianMadness

[ceresbane 61]

You make it sound as if I was insulting you with that post. I wasn't. I was simply putting in my two cents. Are you always this harsh and nasty to people?

 

you know I could claim exactly the same thing you just said by that comment. Because I intended exactly the same thing. I made that response to your point because it's been mentioned in the thread already and for me to talk to you about it would mean to repeat myself.

 

As such, I could only give you the short answer of "you were wrong" and merely recommend that you read into the matter a little more out of respect of your fellow posters.

Edited September 20, 2012 by ceresbane

[Otter 1,942]

you know I could claim exactly the same thing you just said by that comment. Because I intended exactly the same thing. I made that response to your point because it's been mentioned in the thread already and for me to talk to you about it would mean to repeat myself.

 

As such, I could only give you the short answer of "you were wrong" and merely recommend that you read into the matter a little more out of respect of your fellow posters.

 

As you wish. I shall read every post in detail, but do you think you could be a bit nicer in the future? No offense, but you're kind of being a jerk.

[Arcanel 3,041]

ok... there seems to be a major ass theme here that is completely getting... out of hoof...

 

You are all suggesting that alot of these examples aren't obvious that no one but a very highly analytical brony can see.

 

Dude. People make fun of it in comic and fanfic. A lot of them are featured in Equestria daily. There are blindingly obvious plotholes and those are the ones I refer to (hence why you know them and attempt to explain them)

 

 

your house point is a lil hit and miss.

 

Okay, its fine if people are pricks and not all rainbows and sunshine (i've said this dude!).

But if it completely contradicts canon, that is called a plot hole.

 

If doctor house, was a terrible doctor. Not just in the sense that he's a prick. But occassionally doing horrid acts of malpractice. You have yourself a flawed character. And following the mlp logic of just because it appears rather than a real reason.

 

The mane 6 have those kinds of flaws to their character. AJ isn't honest, RD isn't loyal., Rarity is a bitch (greedy-but also.) .

 

Pinkie pie point is valid (because morality is not involved). But when you apply it to others and then considering that logic.

 

You HAVE a protagonist that acts like a villain. You have our heroes cheating in a race against each other.

 

okay let me random rewrite the moral of running of the leaves. Instead of learning to be honest and loyal and being good sports.

What if the moral, was RD to stop from cheating with her wings. And for AJ to not leave her friend when she's in trouble.

 

because guess what? friendship also means to LEARN FROM EACH OTHER.

 

 

 

*commence trollface.

 

even though RD can fly faster than the speed of sound... catching up with AJ is her priority as opposed to two ponies fall off a speeding carriage (that shit hurts man, you're guaranteed some sinificant injury). Something is horribly wrong there,

 

Okay, I misexpressed myself particularly, because I participated in one of these plothole discussions myself...curse my memory ). Still, yeah, many brought them up for it. But, to be honest, how many of them went to do a full "canonical" explanation for it? They made fun of it, doesn't mean most of them will go out of their way to explain it (or at least, not that I know of. And I've seen a lot...).

 

Er, I'll give you the hand on the House point. You got me on that one . However, there is something that still stands. In the end, he did extreme things to a) save the patient and b ) prove everyone else that he was right, as if he was a child, a recurrent thing in his personality. In his mind, he was doing the right thing for the health of the patient, disregarding the moral and ethic of it. Because he thinks, that both of these interrupt the job of a doctor (which is, partially, right). But in the end, solving the puzzle, the illness, or anything else, he DID try to save the patient, whether he cared for it or not. I'm not sure if an MLP comparison can be made, but it's true that, if the "puzzle" was the health of a patient, he would everything he could to solve it.

 

Also, you're saying they aren't those things JUST because they do the opposite? That's like saying someone who is reliable ISN'T reliable just because in some occasions he isn't. You're disregarding the good points about the ponies in question. RD isn't loyal in some occasions because, as far as we know, she'll know no one will get hurt. Has anyone got hurt emotionally when she left someone behind that WASN'T when she was discorded? While the Rarity point is something we don't know, there wasn't a future breach into that or whatever, kids show or not, makes us think there wasn't any bad blood left. Besides some occasions may not even enter the field of loyalty. As in, she wanted to leave Fluttershy behind because she was afraid of everything and was slow. This now put in the context of the chapter Dragonshy. Is loyalty really in question here? Then there's the Applejack theme. Now here is a real entering. She HAS lied, or at least, omitted the truth. But she didn't, say, lie because she felt like it, or because she's bad. no, she did it to protect others. Or have never told a white lie to anybody? Being honest, ISN'T NEVER telling a lie. Just to lie farily less. It's impossible NOT to lie. That's not even a discussion Then, we bring Rarity in. Although she is my fav character, I'll try to be as unbiased as possible, whether you believe me or not. Is Rarity sometimes greedy and selfish? Yes, but again, welcome here, traits of every living being! Why is she the element of generosity? Because the things she has done in that regard, either from the start or in the end, far outweigh the bad things. Like Tabitha St. Germain, the voice of Rarity, herself said. In Suited for Success, she was willing to sacrifice the chance of a lifetime, childhood dreams, and maybe even future, just to do what her friends wanted. In Sweet and Elite, yes, she had a harder time than she should have to choose between Twilight's birthday and her chance to be in the "eilte" team with Fancypants and co. However, in the end, she didn't deny her friends. I don't think she could allow herself to. In Sonic Rainboom is probably one of the worst times of Rarity. She didn't even thought of Rainbow, not at least she was falling to her death, and she, almost literally, got her head down from the clouds. However, again, it's not as if bad blood was left or anything like that. Besides, think of it this way. If it hadn't been for Rarity, who knows if the Sonic Rainboom could happened on that precise day? . And there have been many moments of her to which she varies from her personalities. When she "charmed" Spike into giving her the Fire Ruby, which she ended up calling it most precious for who was given from, and also when she was totally protective of Spike in Dragon Quest (hell, she showed it more than Twilight did!). So, in short, yeah, she has some faults. But I don't think they overcome her good things. Also, saying that for that alone, a protagonist acts like a villain is going too far. As far as I know, neither of them had bad intentions. Only when their minds weren't in their right mind at the time something like that COULD be said. Honestly, competitiveness is the WORST thing to use a sort of villainy thing. Especially between Rainbow and Applejack. Yes, they cheated. Does that mean they acted like a villain? Probably not. Besides, again, competitiveness is something that more than once has blocked the mind of many. And this is something easily applicable in real life. Of course friendship is learning from each other. Didn't they both learned from Twilight AND Celestia, and ended up doing their own race, so to speak, and this time legit?

 

On to the other RD theme, again, put yourself in the current mindset given there, and also, on the current situation. I don't think even Pinkie Pie would have changed her mind. Mindset was too strong to turn around. Have you never been in a situation, where you forgot something important simply, because your current mindset and situation made you forget?

[ceresbane 61]

As you wish. I shall read every post in detail, but do you think you could be a bit nicer in the future? No offense, but you're kind of being a jerk.

 

Sarcastic mayhaps. I'd interpret jerk with name calling added to the mix

 

Okay, I misexpressed myself particularly, because I participated in one of these plothole discussions myself...curse my memory ). Still, yeah, many brought them up for it. But, to be honest, how many of them went to do a full "canonical" explanation for it? They made fun of it, doesn't mean most of them will go out of their way to explain it (or at least, not that I know of. And I've seen a lot...).

 

Er, I'll give you the hand on the House point. You got me on that one . However, there is something that still stands. In the end, he did extreme things to a) save the patient and b ) prove everyone else that he was right, as if he was a child, a recurrent thing in his personality. In his mind, he was doing the right thing for the health of the patient, disregarding the moral and ethic of it. Because he thinks, that both of these interrupt the job of a doctor (which is, partially, right). But in the end, solving the puzzle, the illness, or anything else, he DID try to save the patient, whether he cared for it or not. I'm not sure if an MLP comparison can be made, but it's true that, if the "puzzle" was the health of a patient, he would everything he could to solve it.

 

Also, you're saying they aren't those things JUST because they do the opposite? That's like saying someone who is reliable ISN'T reliable just because in some occasions he isn't. You're disregarding the good points about the ponies in question. RD isn't loyal in some occasions because, as far as we know, she'll know no one will get hurt. Has anyone got hurt emotionally when she left someone behind that WASN'T when she was discorded? While the Rarity point is something we don't know, there wasn't a future breach into that or whatever, kids show or not, makes us think there wasn't any bad blood left. Besides some occasions may not even enter the field of loyalty. As in, she wanted to leave Fluttershy behind because she was afraid of everything and was slow. This now put in the context of the chapter Dragonshy. Is loyalty really in question here? Then there's the Applejack theme. Now here is a real entering. She HAS lied, or at least, omitted the truth. But she didn't, say, lie because she felt like it, or because she's bad. no, she did it to protect others. Or have never told a white lie to anybody? Being honest, ISN'T NEVER telling a lie. Just to lie farily less. It's impossible NOT to lie. That's not even a discussion Then, we bring Rarity in. Although she is my fav character, I'll try to be as unbiased as possible, whether you believe me or not. Is Rarity sometimes greedy and selfish? Yes, but again, welcome here, traits of every living being! Why is she the element of generosity? Because the things she has done in that regard, either from the start or in the end, far outweigh the bad things. Like Tabitha St. Germain, the voice of Rarity, herself said. In Suited for Success, she was willing to sacrifice the chance of a lifetime, childhood dreams, and maybe even future, just to do what her friends wanted. In Sweet and Elite, yes, she had a harder time than she should have to choose between Twilight's birthday and her chance to be in the "eilte" team with Fancypants and co. However, in the end, she didn't deny her friends. I don't think she could allow herself to. In Sonic Rainboom is probably one of the worst times of Rarity. She didn't even thought of Rainbow, not at least she was falling to her death, and she, almost literally, got her head down from the clouds. However, again, it's not as if bad blood was left or anything like that. Besides, think of it this way. If it hadn't been for Rarity, who knows if the Sonic Rainboom could happened on that precise day? . And there have been many moments of her to which she varies from her personalities. When she "charmed" Spike into giving her the Fire Ruby, which she ended up calling it most precious for who was given from, and also when she was totally protective of Spike in Dragon Quest (hell, she showed it more than Twilight did!). So, in short, yeah, she has some faults. But I don't think they overcome her good things. Also, saying that for that alone, a protagonist acts like a villain is going too far. As far as I know, neither of them had bad intentions. Only when their minds weren't in their right mind at the time something like that COULD be said. Honestly, competitiveness is the WORST thing to use a sort of villainy thing. Especially between Rainbow and Applejack. Yes, they cheated. Does that mean they acted like a villain? Probably not. Besides, again, competitiveness is something that more than once has blocked the mind of many. And this is something easily applicable in real life. Of course friendship is learning from each other. Didn't they both learned from Twilight AND Celestia, and ended up doing their own race, so to speak, and this time legit?

 

On to the other RD theme, again, put yourself in the current mindset given there, and also, on the current situation. I don't think even Pinkie Pie would have changed her mind. Mindset was too strong to turn around. Have you never been in a situation, where you forgot something important simply, because your current mindset and situation made you forget?

 

I think no one attempted to explain it. Because they aren't the writers. No matter what they said to justify it, they can always be argued as fanon because unless they had solid proof (which the show does not lend itself to-otherwise these things would not exist), they will never claim their claim is canon.

 

that's like a fight with gravity. you can certainly jump but you'll always be pulled down.

 

I'm seeing weird parallels to myself with that house thing. *american hugh laurie... why do I gotta be him? I wanna be steven fry!

 

perhaps the opposites thing was worded wrong. I only said occassionally (I knew YOU would twist it) to come off as me condemning RD as a disloyal friend indefinitely. I chose the word because I didn't exactly list the times when she was loyal. Just the times when she wasn't, because as human instincts dictate, Bad things stand out more than the good.

 

But I do have a counter (I JUST KNEW YOU'D TWIST IT). There's one thing about occasionally falling from grace with a ego-streak here and a down talk there.

 

But to act in an extreme of disloyalty like endangering friends at a speedin carriage and lewavin them to feed the lovely kiss of gravity and friction with the speed/force of a galloping horse (which I now realise is wtf? RD can fly faster than those stallions can run, RD shouldnt have been able to escape). thats a bit of a dick move, eh? and the worse part is that it was fully intentional. she decided on it.

 

a bit too extremely out of character to merely be a fall from grace.

 

so yeah fall from grace... I agree on but there are some extremes that cannot be describe as such like your little oopsies in your examples.

 

Since that supports your "best" theory.

 

 

Yeah... I'm starting to see RD as dick more and more... huh...

[Otter 1,942]

Sarcastic mayhaps. I'd interpret jerk with name calling added to the mix

 

Name calling was not the intention. That's why I said "no offense". I didn't mean to insult you, and I'm sorry you took it that way.

 

 

Having read the entire thread in detail, here's my two cents 2.0:

 

I feel as if you're taking an overcritical approach to the series. You're pointing out every little insignificant oversight as if it were the most heinous crime ever committed by mankind. Yes, the characters sometimes come out of... well, character, but that's not a plothole so much as it is the characters being more like everyday people.

 

For example, let's say a network made a TV show out of my life (Which no one would, my life being so vastly mundane and all). I'm usually a very docile person. I don't get angry very easily. But when I do get angry, you'd better beware. In fact, just today something really made me furious, and I literally put a hole in my wall. But that wouldn't be a plothole for my character, nor would it be "out of character". It would just be me being human. We all have flaws, and they all come to light at one time or another.

 

To create a kid's show where every character is the very image of perfection is just unrealistic. It would be falsely educating the children about how the real world works. The child viewer might build unrealistic expectations of the future from the show, and would be inadequately prepared for real life as a result. In the real world, people aren't nice at all. People are vile and despicable. There are a precious few humans who will treat you with respect and dignity, but the majority of them will just be the most putrid pile of filth you've ever laid eyes on.

 

But whatever, man. I know this won't change how you feel on this subject, which is fine. You'll probably just use this post to continue the argument, which is fine with me. But I'm done from here on out. I've said all I need to say.

[Arcanel 3,041]

Sarcastic mayhaps. I'd interpret jerk with name calling added to the mix

 

 

 

I think no one attempted to explain it. Because they aren't the writers. No matter what they said to justify it, they can always be argued as fanon because unless they had solid proof (which the show does not lend itself to-otherwise these things would not exist), they will never claim their claim is canon.

 

that's like a fight with gravity. you can certainly jump but you'll always be pulled down.

 

I'm seeing weird parallels to myself with that house thing. *american hugh laurie... why do I gotta be him? I wanna be steven fry!

 

perhaps the opposites thing was worded wrong. I only said occassionally (I knew YOU would twist it) to come off as me condemning RD as a disloyal friend indefinitely. I chose the word because I didn't exactly list the times when she was loyal. Just the times when she wasn't, because as human instincts dictate, Bad things stand out more than the good.

 

But I do have a counter (I JUST KNEW YOU'D TWIST IT). There's one thing about occasionally falling from grace with a ego-streak here and a down talk there.

 

But to act in an extreme of disloyalty like endangering friends at a speedin carriage and lewavin them to feed the lovely kiss of gravity and friction with the speed/force of a galloping horse (which I now realise is wtf? RD can fly faster than those stallions can run, RD shouldnt have been able to escape). thats a bit of a dick move, eh? and the worse part is that it was fully intentional. she decided on it.

 

a bit too extremely out of character to merely be a fall from grace.

 

so yeah fall from grace... I agree on but there are some extremes that cannot be describe as such like your little oopsies in your examples.

 

Since that supports your "best" theory.

 

 

Yeah... I'm starting to see RD as dick more and more... huh...

 

Eh, the things with the writers is something that we need to ask them to fully clarify, don't you thinK? Whatever we can tell is still especulation on that. So let's leave it at that shall we?

 

Also, if you wanna be Fry, be my guest! I'll be Fancypants, if you don't mind .

 

Also, touche...I just wish you would have been a bit more explicit on that regard . Anyway, it's true. We tend to point out the bad things rather than the good things, and it's also the bad things we tend to remember. However, we should always try to be unbiased whenever this kind of things happens, and always try to use the neutral point of it to make the correct statement...and I think I went "psychologist" mode there XD. Anyway, you're trying to condemn only RD here. IF anything you should also condemn Twilight as well. Even if Rainbow hadn't done anything, she could easily used her magic to bring both of them back in. Did she do it? No, she didn't. Why? Same reason as RD. Mindset and current situation negated other thoughts on the process. It's not on purpose if your mind can't help but focus on just one problem at hand.

 

Anyway, my opinion? Don't try to see anyone as a jerk, unless there has been more bad things than good things, which you and I both know, the good things have been more, human instincts be damned. However, that's a personal opinion, and I shall speak of it no more. Anyway, dude, I'm going to sleep. It is 1:30 AM here in good old Argentina, and I'm pretty sure my eyes are about to bulge. If I don't answer, it's because Luna took me, k? Tomorrow I'll probably adress you more, if you so decide to answer. See ya later Ceresbane! (Also, at the rate you're going, you're going to be the bane of the cartoons with your analysis!..:Get it?...Ugh...sorry, bad 1:30Am jokes ).

[ceresbane 61]

Name calling was not the intention. That's why I said "no offense". I didn't mean to insult you, and I'm sorry you took it that way.

 

 

Having read the entire thread in detail, here's my two cents 2.0:

 

I feel as if you're taking an overcritical approach to the series. You're pointing out every little insignificant oversight as if it were the most heinous crime ever committed by mankind. Yes, the characters sometimes come out of... well, character, but that's not a plothole so much as it is the characters being more like everyday people.

 

For example, let's say a network made a TV show out of my life (Which no one would, my life being so vastly mundane and all). I'm usually a very docile person. I don't get angry very easily. But when I do get angry, you'd better beware. In fact, just today something really made me furious, and I literally put a hole in my wall. But that wouldn't be a plothole for my character, nor would it be "out of character". It would just be me being human. We all have flaws, and they all come to light at one time or another.

 

To create a kid's show where every character is the very image of perfection is just unrealistic. It would be falsely educating the children about how the real world works. The child viewer might build unrealistic expectations of the future from the show, and would be inadequately prepared for real life as a result. In the real world, people aren't nice at all. People are vile and despicable. There are a precious few humans who will treat you with respect and dignity, but the majority of them will just be the most putrid pile of filth you've ever laid eyes on.

 

But whatever, man. I know this won't change how you feel on this subject, which is fine. You'll probably just use this post to continue the argument, which is fine with me. But I'm done from here on out. I've said all I need to say.

 

*watch it bronies. the cupcakes are out. hmmmm chocolate frosting.

 

this point has been addressed.

 

Basically yeah, that some good practice in characterisation. I recommend it to every writer out there.

 

However, it has been established that the mane 6 are incarnation of the elements of harmony. They are groups of friends that represents their greatest asset as a friend.

 

In Arc's words, they are not perfect representatives of the elements of harmony. They are the best to represent them.

 

Of which I countered, as such they are the least likely to go against said element. They can have their falls in graces but they wouldn't be doing it to large extremes (logically) as to be the complete opposite of their element.

 

And yet the characters are occasionally (dun pull an arc on this use of the word) complete opposites of their element.

the example given being the carriage scene in last round up. Where RD leaves pinkie pie and rarity to hurt themselves on the ground, to give AJ higher priority. Prioritising the goal over friends? not very loyal that.

 

Let me present to you a characterisation exercise. The elements of harmony are virtues, as such they limit a character.

 

In writing the general rule is.

 

Good guys limit themselves with morals..

Bad guys are limitless because they're amoral.

 

RD is loyal. So as her character her weakness is her friends. If AJ was a villain she would have escaped because RD would have prioritised the safety of Rarity and Pinkie pie.

 

But she didn't

 

AJ is honest. If she were presented with a similar dilemma. She would have done the honest thing to do.

 

Is that such a terrible character trait? duality is cool and everything. But a hero is made from the actions they do. In many instances the illusion of hero is broken throughout the show.

 

RD can still be loyal and have a full fleshed out personality.

 

Superman was raised by the morals the Kents taught him and you never (unless somehow turned to evil superman) see him break these ideals. and yet he's still a fleshed out character.

 

Sure falls from graces can make a person more human. But this is a kid's show, no kid is going to understand that duality. And just to stop a coming counter point.

 

RD would still appeal to people. Just like how superman appeals universally. He's a good guy. RD is a loyal pony. There's just nothing to contradict that, so there's no confusion.

 

So to conclude. Yes RD would fine if she didn't act loyal all the time. But don't even dare come to the conclusion that she can't be a proper character if she was loyal all the time. Plus there are times in the show that oes beyond falling out of habit and merely falling out of character and canon.

 

As such... those are just me labeling plotholes. those ARE plotholes.

 

because

a) you are giving way too much lee-way to an archetype that is designed for kids (hence should be rather straight forward)

b- and it doesn't change the fact that characters act so out of character that you actually notice it as being so. Hence why the fans make fun of it.

 

If it were decently written. You would not have noticed.

"good writing speaks for itself"

 

and yet there are these inconsistencies that we have all noticed and remain unexplained because the writing doesn't explain.

 

@@Arcanel,

Edited September 20, 2012 by ceresbane

[Page Turner 607]

OHMYGAWD! THE SHOW IS NOT PERFECT! WHAT A HORRIBLE HORRIBLE SHOCK!

seiriously, every show has it's issues. and If you can't see past that and enjoy the thing at face value then i'm sorry. It's a silly kid's show that somehow manages to not be horrendously obnoxious. and YES, It IS a good story, on an episode-by-episode basis. of corse there's going to be continuity issues between episodes, it comes with the territory of having different writers writing different episodes. and that's what they are CONTINUITY errors. They aren't plot holes, because to have Plot holes you need an overarching plot. MLP doesn't have that.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Page Turner

[Samurshy 708]

When I think about it, in the instance of the royal canterlot wedding, just because they said they learned a lesson about friendshipin one of the episodes before, that does not mean that they actually learned that lesson. It is much easier to say you learned that you should always take your friend's worries seriously. It is much more difficult to actually do when the time comes. My dad has this saying, "The only mistake you make is the one you do not learn from" in this instance the first time they did not take her seriously was not the mistake. The second time when they didn't take her seriously was a mistake. Do you understand what I am trying to say? No I am not in denial. This could definitely be a plot hole. But it could also just be a flaw in judgement. It shows that they are not perfect and that they make mistakes.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Bronynonymous

[Bucky McGillyCuddy 956]

I genuinely don't think this is a plot hole at all. Sure at heart it's a childrens show and maybe they don't take it a seriously as the older demographic would like it to be taken. But i think as the Brony empire grows Hasbro will become more and more aware of this and probably adjust the shows themes slightly to account for it.

 

Plot holes are the least of my worries anyway considering that only a hand full of the episodes are actually cannon driven.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Bucky_McGillycuddy

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,694]

Plotholes?! WHAT plot holes? How dare you?! DON'T YOU REALIZE I WILL EAT YOU?!?!?!?

 

-_- Seriously though. Of course there are inconsistencies, so what? All shows have them. I tend not to analyze things I love. I know the flaws are there, but I'm not going to point out every single one. I think a lot of us feel the same way. Surely you wouldn't label that as "denial."

[Starstream 182]

Can someone please explain to me why Ceresbane is getting so much crap from so many people for the thing he said about the personality inconsistencies?

 

From what I can tell, people insist that he says the characters should be perfect, but what I hear is that the characters are the living embodyments of the elements they represent, and that their flaws should not contradict their elements, but rather be problems that stem from characteristics associated with those elements. And I can whole-heartedly agree with that.

 

Barring the Discord episodes, I find it very jarring when these characters contradict their elements because for the greatest part there is no real justified reason for it, because there are better alternatives. They might be small things but it's little questions like:

- Why is Applejack lying to Pinkie?

- Why is Pinkie being so serious and up-tight all of a sudden?

- Why is Fluttershy being such a bitch right now?

that just don't sit right with me, and don't get me wrong, I can understand why those choices were made, and I do appreciate the thought that went behind it. I just don't like the way it meshes with the element of harmony concept.

 

These are the great chosen avatars wielding the McGuffin crystals of legend. So if they don't adhere to the demands of their respective crystals, why are they the chosen ones at all? Spike is more loyal and reliable than Rainbow Dash, the Cakes have yet to tell a lie, Celestia's magic is most likely still stronger than Twilight's and she already understands the value of friendship, heck, for that matter, the Derpy character would make for a more interesting element of kindness with some minor adjustments.

 

I don't buy the "different writers" excuse, because for one, it only takes a 12 word memo to solve that problem.

 

- Kindness

- Generosity

- Honesty

- Loyalty

- Laughter

- Friendship is Magic

Don't screw it up!

 

 

and for another, I've read fanfics that could consistently keep the mane-six to their elements and still have interesting flaws to play off, (Whether or not those stories as a whole are interesting is up to you to decide for yourself, but at least the concepts are competent,) so why should I expect any less from the capabilities of professional writers?

Edited September 20, 2012 by Zhinzo

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,694]

We're not giving him crap. Do you see personal insults flying around here? Not everyone here is saying he's wrong, either. He's just looking at things differently.

 

Ceresbane means well and is obviously a smart, observant guy to bring up the points he does. But I don't have an issue with the ponies occasionally failing to live up to their "elements," or flat-out contradicting them on occasion. Who hasn't struggled with that sort of thing before? At the end of the day the ponies are more important to me as realistic characters than they are as symbols, just like being myself is more important than being who other people want me to be. And none of those little things keep me from enjoying MLP. I've seen too many discussions (and fandoms) dragged down by disagreements over little things, and I'm just not going to get into it.

 

It's a great show.

[Arcanel 3,041]

*watch it bronies. the cupcakes are out. hmmmm chocolate frosting.

 

this point has been addressed.

 

Basically yeah, that some good practice in characterisation. I recommend it to every writer out there.

 

However, it has been established that the mane 6 are incarnation of the elements of harmony. They are groups of friends that represents their greatest asset as a friend.

 

In Arc's words, they are not perfect representatives of the elements of harmony. They are the best to represent them.

 

Of which I countered, as such they are the least likely to go against said element. They can have their falls in graces but they wouldn't be doing it to large extremes (logically) as to be the complete opposite of their element.

 

And yet the characters are occasionally (dun pull an arc on this use of the word) complete opposites of their element.

the example given being the carriage scene in last round up. Where RD leaves pinkie pie and rarity to hurt themselves on the ground, to give AJ higher priority. Prioritising the goal over friends? not very loyal that.

 

Let me present to you a characterisation exercise. The elements of harmony are virtues, as such they limit a character.

 

In writing the general rule is.

 

Good guys limit themselves with morals..

Bad guys are limitless because they're amoral.

 

RD is loyal. So as her character her weakness is her friends. If AJ was a villain she would have escaped because RD would have prioritised the safety of Rarity and Pinkie pie.

 

But she didn't

 

AJ is honest. If she were presented with a similar dilemma. She would have done the honest thing to do.

 

Is that such a terrible character trait? duality is cool and everything. But a hero is made from the actions they do. In many instances the illusion of hero is broken throughout the show.

 

RD can still be loyal and have a full fleshed out personality.

 

Superman was raised by the morals the Kents taught him and you never (unless somehow turned to evil superman) see him break these ideals. and yet he's still a fleshed out character.

 

Sure falls from graces can make a person more human. But this is a kid's show, no kid is going to understand that duality. And just to stop a coming counter point.

 

RD would still appeal to people. Just like how superman appeals universally. He's a good guy. RD is a loyal pony. There's just nothing to contradict that, so there's no confusion.

 

So to conclude. Yes RD would fine if she didn't act loyal all the time. But don't even dare come to the conclusion that she can't be a proper character if she was loyal all the time. Plus there are times in the show that oes beyond falling out of habit and merely falling out of character and canon.

 

As such... those are just me labeling plotholes. those ARE plotholes.

 

because

a) you are giving way too much lee-way to an archetype that is designed for kids (hence should be rather straight forward)

b- and it doesn't change the fact that characters act so out of character that you actually notice it as being so. Hence why the fans make fun of it.

 

If it were decently written. You would not have noticed.

"good writing speaks for itself"

 

and yet there are these inconsistencies that we have all noticed and remain unexplained because the writing doesn't explain.

 

@@Arcanel,

 

I think there's something we both are forgetting here. Actually, three things. One I just remembered now, the others, not so much. First things first, everyone in the crew of the show has agreed that this show is now a show for the family, that is, all ages included, and not fully FOR kids. This is something that has been admitted by Lauren Faust, Jayson Thiessen, Jim Wooton, etc. This means, they now have more leverage for the story itself. Second, why this isn't wrong for the kids? Simple. Most of the situations that have the plotholes you mention, are situations that are either a ) funny, or b ) just produce a "Uh oh!" feeling in their minds. Knowing this, the writers don't have to abide so much to the writing of their stories. After all, while there are a lots of grown up people watching the show, as, like I said, it is now a family show, the original point was STILL for kids, and as such, abiding by things like plotholes would have made them take much, much longer on all of these. They didn't originally thought that people like you would be so relentless on finding the plotholes XD. And finally, you mention the characters, but there's something we BOTH are forgetting. While we have mentioned some depth of the characters, you have forgotten FURTHER depth on them, which is the other thing kids won't catch, but is still there. I have adressed this somewhere else, but since I can't seem to find the post where I made it, I'll try to retell what I said back then. Why am I adressing this? I know it's slightly off topic, but it is to add to the "Kids won't understand this" subject. And also adresses the lack of character depth you mentioned. The opposites is not all they have. Trust me, whene you think about it, they are more complex than you think.

 

RD is a bragger and attention seeker. That much, we know. Probably the second most selfish, so to speak, behind Rarity. However, for all we know, she might be doing it because of something much, much more complex. The thought of failure in her mind is something she could not even BARE to think about, let alone with the Wonderbolts. Thus, by putting on a strong, confident mind, she feel more safe of herself and how she will do later when she has to prove herself.

 

Fluttershy is shy, timid, afraid of almost everything, etc. After her fall from Cloudsdale to her almsot sure death, and being saved by the butterflies, for all we know, that's when she started fearing everything. Plus that to when she was made fun of for her very low wing power...yeah, that's bound to cause slight trauma on anybody. Since her mind feels it's safer for her so she won't have to go through that again, her character becamse more and more in fear of everything she didn't know, only trusting what she already knew about. The animals that had saved her. Not to mention, she likes to take things to the extreme. Either she is too shy, or whenever she tries to be less shy...well...Putting Your Hoof Down happens. She is influenced very easily, and when she sees someone with an attitude that can accomplish what she wants, well, she'll try her best to do so. Moderation is one of the most difficult things after all.

 

Pinkie Pie doesn't need any introduction. Her happy self is done to avoid anything that might have to do with the rock farm, before the Sonic Rainboom ever happened. Whenever something breaks that face, Pinkamena arises, so to speak. Even the Cranky Doodle thing of her stalking him JUST to be his friend could be applied to that. In her mind, not being able to make someone like her, and failing on that subject, is her biggest fear. That's one reason why she forgets her OWN birthday, don't you think? Thining so much for others, well, it's almsot expected.

 

Rarity is the one tha shows ambition at the best. But like Twilight, she does have that OCD to have everything neat and in it's place. Working till unholy hours so that her job will be done, only shows her devotion to it. However, as mentioned before, she does have her other faces. Being selfish is something she has done before. Enthusiasm is something that drives her as well. Also, the fact she has ALWAYS wished to belong to the high class, and as such, acts like them as much as she can. Including being a drama queen, her semi-superficial being, and maybe even the fashion and artwork she creates.

 

Applejack has her honesty based on her family. Lose that, she has lost half her side. In the most literal way possible. Besides, After her not so glad adventure through Manehattan, I'm pretty sure the attachment to the Apples is even bigger. Making them be proud of her is everything in her life. But it also means to accustom to the traditional rule of the Apples. Honesty. Can she do that most of the times? Probably. Everytime? Nope. It's impossible. She does try to lie less directly, and maybe occasionally omit the truth, but that's it. Again, the only true lie she did was for Pinkie Pie, and guess what, anyone with common sense that saw how Pinkie was and that was preparing a surprise party for her would have thought of that too. Disaappointing someone, as much as everyone else except Pinkie, is the biggest fear on her. Also the reason, why she's so stubborn to call for help.

 

And finally Twilight. Well, she again needs no introduction. After being accepted into Celestia's academy by her OWN hoof, well, someone like her would BURY within the books. And as such developed an OCD that is similar to Rarity's, only she's much more attached to it, and it's more driven by the "Everything MUST go as planned". When that broke, Lesson Zero happened. Since she hasn't seen much failure from herself, the moment that breaks, her mind can't cope with it, and snaps. Since it was also, in her mind, a disappointement to Celestia, that pony that she cares about the most, and the pony that for her the most, sans her parents, well, it's even worse. Right now, friendship is the second part of her life. If that's taken away from her, she would probably bury herself in books to make the pain go away. Since she discovered how nice it was to have friends, well, take that away for her, the effect might be even worse than Pinkie, and it was slightly shown in Canterlot Wedding, only then it was another context, and her brother AND her mentor also confronted her.

 

See? This is depth that kids won't even realize until they grow up. Do you really think the writers HAVEN'T done a good job at character depth? Plotholes? Sure, everyone has them. But again, the original was for kids. And right now, for example, adding a brother was a smart move in that, for the older ages, it added sudden drama to it that you didn't even expect.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Arcanel

[SBaby 660]

However, it has been established that the mane 6 are incarnation of the elements of harmony. They are groups of friends that represents their greatest asset as a friend.

 

In Arc's words, they are not perfect representatives of the elements of harmony. They are the best to represent them.

 

Of which I countered, as such they are the least likely to go against said element. They can have their falls in graces but they wouldn't be doing it to large extremes (logically) as to be the complete opposite of their element.

 

And yet the characters are occasionally (dun pull an arc on this use of the word) complete opposites of their element.

the example given being the carriage scene in last round up. Where RD leaves pinkie pie and rarity to hurt themselves on the ground, to give AJ higher priority. Prioritising the goal over friends? not very loyal that.

 

Let me present to you a characterisation exercise. The elements of harmony are virtues, as such they limit a character.

I've stayed quiet up until now, but you said the magic word there. So I will say this. Even the most virtuous people can stray from the path and do things that aren't virtuous.

 

In the Ultima series, you play as the Avatar, the physical incarnation of the eight Virtues of Britannia, the literal Jesus figure of that world, if you will. In alot of ways, the Virtues are like the Elements of Harmony (with some of them even having the same names or meaning the same thing). Yet in the later games, you are allowed to steal, murder and even commit adultery over, and over again with little to no repricussion. In fact, you are often required to do it. There is a part in Pagan where you are REQUIRED to kill about a dozen children. The Avatar of the Eight Virtues, murdering kids.

 

I'm not denying that there are plotholes in the show. You're definitely right about that. And there are times when the characters act out of character for the incarnations of the Elements of Harmony (though one begs the question, who decides which ponies become the next incarnations, especially since Princess Celestia was the incarnation of at least three of them). But when FiM has a plot hole or the mane 6 act slightly out of character, it just seems mild in comparison to what I've seen from heroes in other franchises.

 

Not to mention, if the mane 6 were always perfectly true to the Elements of Harmony, not only would this show be extremely boring to watch, but they'd be Mary-Sues.

Edited September 20, 2012 by SBaby

[Xievie 498]

*reads title*

Woah Woah, hold up..

Plot holes? Denial or not?

Sorry, not a clopper.

 

*Comes into the topic*

Ohhhhhhhh! THAT kind of plot hole...

[ceresbane 61]

abiding by things like plotholes would have made them take much, much longer on all of these.

completely disagree. It really is not hard to stick to a canon and stay entertaining. The bazzillion pages of fanfiction proves that completely.

 

As mentioned before those situation could have easily been pasted on to another pony of a differing element to create a completely different non-plotholey dynamic to which many fanfic writer adhere to for fear of internet brony raging circle jerks.

 

If the actual writers posted fanfic anonymously you can bet your ass they'll get their asses whooped just as much if they do what they do on the show,

 

RD is a bragger and attention seeker. That much, we know. Probably the second most selfish, so to speak, behind Rarity.

minor point. I would disagree on basis that Rarity on scales of few outright cruel actions (intermixing with her minor arrogant acts) as opposed RD's numerous numerous acts of petty pranks and down talking.

 

They're roughly equal in the douche-o-meter. in a cumulative sense. on averages, yeah I get your point.

 

This is depth that kids won't even realize until they grow up. Do you really think the writers HAVEN'T done a good job at character depth? Plotholes? Sure, everyone has them. But again, the original was for kids. And right now, for example, adding a brother was a smart move in that, for the older ages, it added sudden drama to it that you didn't even expect.

point made... until you mentioned the shoehorned characters.

 

in many instances they have shown a great HEALTHY diversity in character depth but then... as you mentioned you get bits like the shoehorning of characters and character behaviours that contradict (I'm holdin my ground on that) the canon. And when you have to use conjecture (yeah I'm going there) to explain it. that shows some pretty poor story telling practices.

 

Instead of a big brother.

 

How about a childhood rival?

instantly you have an even more interesting (and easily canon) plot point to the canterlot wedding, Suddenly shining armour is a big brother at heart... and you suddenly WANT him in more episodes because the rivalry they have makes the readers curious to how that plays out.

 

lesson to princess celestia?

dear princess,

 

shining armour was for many years the bane of my existance. he would belittle me with his knowledge and tease me about my flaws. But... now I realised that all these years, he's actually been a very good friend to me, maybe something more than that, even. Maybe the big brother I never had.

 

Without him I wouldn't be where I am. Without him driving me to greater lengths and determination, I honestly don't see how I could have achieved what I have.

 

I thought of him as my greatest rival. But in reality, he has been one of my closest friends even when I myself didn't realise it. Someday... when he stops being such a jerk. I might congratulate him on his marriage and thank him for saving all of canterlot when I and my best friends could not.

 

your faithful student

 

twilight sparkle.

 

BAM WHOLESOME LESSON OVERLOAD!

 

Not to mention, if the mane 6 were always perfectly true to the Elements of Harmony, not only would this show be extremely boring to watch, but they'd be Mary-Sues.

that is a presumption that can be proven to be wrong with many examples.

 

comic book heroes to be one example. they are based on an archetype and they always remain in that archetype and guess what? they're popular for nearly 70 years!

 

you misinterpret a mary sue.

 

are more important to me as realistic characters than they are as symbols

 

if that were the case, the elements of harmony should have been removed.

 

if they were just capable ponies. or merely chosen (like the avatar). then they wouldn't have this problem.

 

but the fact remains, they idiotically established this mythos in the story. so now as writers. they have to stick to the canon they made.

 

but yes otherwise, your point is valid in ANY OTHER story including an mlp:fim that doesn't include elements of harmony.

Edited September 20, 2012 by ceresbane