Villains, Antagonists, and redemption/change

[IridscentNionios 1,422]

After discussions and stuff at another thread

http://mlpforums.com/topic/98621-what-villain-should-be-redeemed-next/

i realized tha many people here categorize Gilda, Lightning Dust, Trixie, and Diamond Tiara in the same category as Sombra, Tirek, Chrysalis, Discord!
 
http://pixelkitties.deviantart.com/art/MLP-Antagonists-Poster-319049722

It's like people have taken this poster and dubbed them all "Villains"!!! I know this might just be a simple misconception but it's baffling me as to why people consider them SO evil that they fit this category. Some of you believe this too! 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/villain

It's like people have missed the definition of the villain lately! They are antagonists and some of us know that.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/antagonist

So here i ask you... are any of the current antagonists we have seen so evil that they could qualify the role of a villain? What does qualify as an antagonist to you? When does an antagonist cross the line and becomes a villain? Do only antagonists deserve redemption? What is stopping you from giving them the chance to be redeemed? Why do you not want to see it? What would change your mind in that area? Do you have a way to redeem their character and if so what way is that? When does a villain stop deserving a chance for redemption? Why do you hate it so much?

Edited May 21, 2014 by nioniosbbbb

[Swirl 90]

I think there's a difference between an antagonist and a villain. Antagonists aren't necessarily evil or bad, it's just their motives go against the protagonist. Lightning Dust and Gilda aren't evil but they're not protagonists, same with Trixie and Diamond Tiara. Technically you could say they're villains but they're definitely not in league with Nightmare Moon, Chrysalis, Sombra and Tirek. Discord is more of an anti-hero in my opinion, he's kind of switching sides a bit. Even when he's good he's seen as being untrustworthy. So yeah...they're all antagonists, but in different levels of "bad".

[IridscentNionios 1,422]

@,What i am puzzled with is that "redemption" or "remorse" per say is considered a villain exclusive but we do not seem to consider them worthy of it rather than consider antagonists. If you restrict the administration of a cure for a disease only to those who "might" be ill you are not doing much good. Anyways i hate it when we put all ponies into the same box... 

[Jeric 46,884]

I don't think it was a misconception. Rather the result of stream of consciousness posting that we are all guilty of.

 

Now, if you REALLY want to get technical ... There are no villains. Just different types of antagonist character molds. I'll elucidate later, but there are times where a redemptive arc can hamper the character/theme of an overarching storyline.

[Pastel 7,630]

Villain =/= Antagonist

 

A villain is someone powerful, always appearing in a 2-part episode, and wants to *Mojo Jojo's voice* rrrrrule the worrrrrrrrrld. He generally threats hundreds or thousands of ponies, and the 6 main characters (not only 1 or 2) will fight him. At the end he's killed/banished from Equestria.

 

An antagonist is someone opposed to only a few characters, he always appears in a 1-part episode. At the end, he only "learns his lesson".

Edited May 21, 2014 by Blobulle

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,825]

There is a total difference between antagonists and villans. Antagonists are just "against" the protagonists and really don't do much harm, except compete. Villians have a goal, to take over something and defeat the protagonist. However, both can be redeemed, but it will take a lot more for a villan. Lightning Dust could've been redeemed, but the writers chose not to. 

[Banul 3,831]

A villain and an antagonist arn't the same thing. I think people get them mixed up a lot. Antagonist is the term for a character that is opposing the protagonist in some way. A villian is a character whose evil actions influence the plot. In this way, the villian doesn't even have to be the antagonist and the antagonist doesn't have to be evil.

 

 

So, people like Diamond Tiara and Gilda don't exactly fit the role of villian, but are antagonists.

Both kinds of characters can be "redeemed" if it fits the story.

[Khaoios 1,970]

 Lightning Dust could've been redeemed, but the writers chose not to. 

 

I wish they did......b/c she was a great character.   God damn writers,

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,825]

I wish they did......b/c she was a great character.   God damn writers,

Yeah, I even read up that the writers made an alternative ending but they chose to stick with the original. In the alternative, Dust apologizes and is dowgraded to wingpony while Rainbow's bumped up to leader. 

[Khaoios 1,970]

Yeah, I even read up that the writers made an alternative ending but they chose to stick with the original. In the alternative, Dust apologizes and is dowgraded to wingpony while Rainbow's bumped up to leader. 

 

*jaw drops* well now...........the alternate version sounded a hell of a lot better than the original.  What a shame, that they did that,

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,825]

*jaw drops* well now...........the alternate version sounded a hell of a lot better than the original.  What a shame, that they did that,

Yeah, I totally wish they used the alternative because then Rainbow would have another friend, instead of completely dumping her away.

[IridscentNionios 1,422]

 

 

I don't think it was a misconception. Rather the result of stream of consciousness posting that we are all guilty of.

I didn't understand a thing here. What do you mean? 

[Pastel 7,630]

Yeah, I even read up that the writers made an alternative ending but they chose to stick with the original. In the alternative, Dust apologizes and is dowgraded to wingpony while Rainbow's bumped up to leader.

Why didn't they do that? This is much better than the actual ending, which is the only flaw of the episode... -_-

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,825]

Why didn't they do that? This is much better than the actual ending, which is the only flaw of the episode... -_-

Yep, I have to agree with that being the flaw of the episode. Lightning Dust had much potential as a friend of Rainbow's. 

[IridscentNionios 1,422]

@,@@Blobulle, While i am not against or for Lightning Dust's Redemption i would prefer it if Gilda appeared in the Equestria games and actually did something with Rainbow Dash.

What i am truly concerned about is why people are SO against the redemption of villains. Like... we had one Discord... and then when the drama came to pass we had the drama/fear/call it whatever you like about Chrysalis being redeemed! JEEZ! Would that be so bad? I mean let's have an episode about someone OUTSIDE the mane 6!!! 

[Princess Lona 382]

It was always my impression that "antagonist" is a general term under which "villain" is a sub category, so all villains are antagonists but all antagonists are not necessarily villains. To me, a villain is a character who is inherently evil and can therefore never be changed. It's a mystical term, and a bit of an outdated one as well, used in a time when good and evil in stories were more cut and dried. I consider villains to be characters with little backstory explaining why they choose to bring pain and sorrow to others like No Heart from Care Bears, The guy who owns the evil corporation in Robocop, or Sauron (I never read the Silmarilian, so forgive me if I am unaware of any redeeming backstory for him).

 

So under my definition, Diamond Tierra would be a villain since they haven't yet explained why she's such a jerk, but Tirek wouldn't be a villain because he has some baggage with his brother. Chrysalis would be a villain because evil is in her nature. She has to eat love to survive. The notoriously one-note King Sombra is a villain, but Nightmare Moon is not because she was hypnotized by Nightmare magic. Or you could say that the Nightmare magic is the villain but Luna was not. Discord was never a villain. Chaos is in his nature, but chaos is not necessarily evil, so he was able to reform by learning about friendship. While characters like Diamond Tierra, Lightning Dust, and Gilda are technically villains, as soon as they are given backstory they lose their villain status and gain the possibility of reformation.

 

I'm not sure what you would call the other sub-category of antagonists - the ones who at least think they have a good reason to be jerks. Maybe "misguided characters" or just "bad guys".

[IridscentNionios 1,422]

Chrysalis would be a villain because evil is in her nature. She has to eat love to survive.

 

Discord was never a villain. Chaos is in his nature, but chaos is not necessarily evil, so he was able to reform by learning about friendship.

Forgive me for my misunderstanding but if it's in Chrysalis' nature to feed upon love and "Up to her to find food for her *subjects*." ((Mind the word Subjects... she doesn't call them minions that a standard villain would do)) she is less deserving than Discord of a "redemption" per say? The one is never a villain because it is in his nature but the other is because of the same reason? *SELF CONTRADICTION* You know it's easy to say it was in Discord's nature but it was his choice to use that nature to do evil... he knew about friendship... and seeked to destroy it. But i just want to see why people think Chrysalis is less deserving than Discord.

 

You know how awesome it would be if Chrysalis was in Discord's place right now? Think about it for a second... the creators didn't redeem Discord because "He's just a trickster" or "He just wants to have fun..." as the fanboys say... they redeemed him because they saw something in him to use in future stories... I for one think Chrysalis would be far more capable of doing the same thing Discord did maybe easier if you ask me... be it her or her changelings doing that. That's exactly it... they had one choice in which villain to redeem and they chose Discord for that matter.

 

If they wanted they could find another reason or story to redeem a villain and that would cause the same drama and the same followed acceptance. You are standing there having accepted what Hasbro has given you not because it was the right choice but because in time you came to accept it. Because as you say it both villains we have here it is in their nature to do what they do... so it's not a matter of who's more deserving... but who do we (the ponies) or "they" (the company aka Hasbro) try to make the effort to redeem. And that's the extremely annoying stuff.

Edited May 21, 2014 by nioniosbbbb

[Untitled Goose Q 5,138]

The reason I am against too much redemption is that it would easily get over used. IMHO, Discord was best for 'redemption' as he can still cause problems, but actively having him against the mane 6 would get boring, and with such a powerful charavter it would feel like a waste to get rid of him.

[IridscentNionios 1,422]

@,Some would share your opinion but using different characters like e.g. Chrysalis. My point is that it isn't more deserving as i pointed out in the post above... it's simply the fact that post-redemption Discord has been accepted for what he is right now and the fans have come to compromise with the fact that Discord is "Good" now... I mean with a little bit more effort one could redeem in the same way Chrysalis... so... what's the difference? Are we so much corporational devourers that we accept every piece of story thrown at us? I make it sound like a conspiracy but i am just trying to say that just because you accepted it and you have to deal with it doesn't mean it's right. It just means that the spot of the redeemed villain got taken and Chrysalis was just unlucky not to take it. JUST THAT AND NOTHING MORE. 

[Princess Lona 382]

I'm not against Chrysalis being reformed, I just don't see how it's possible. She needs to eat love. I would consider her to be a more tragic character than anything. She must eat love to survive, she can't help but be evil. It's the word "evil" that is confusing here. An "evil" entity is something or someone that fundamentally opposes the worldview of a given individual or group (in this case the ponies of Equestria). From Chrysalis' point of view she is just doing what she must to ensure the survival of her kind, but this is in direct opposition to what is "good" in Equestrian philosophy, therefore "evil" is in her nature within the worldview of ponies. Being mean is not a choice for her like it is for other characters. Conversely, the Equestrian ponies are "evil" in the Changlings' worldview because they withhold food from them. The ponies have no choice in this matter. If they sacrificed their love, Equestria would fall out of Harmony leaving it unprotected against all the pain and hardship that the Mane Six are always saving it from. "Evil" and "good" are subjective, but nature doesn't change.

Consider the fact that every time you take a breath you are sucking a bunch of tiny airborne micro organisms into your lungs and killing them with your body heat. This is practically beyond your control, the only way to stop it from happening would be to kill yourself. This makes you "evil" in the worldview of micro organisms because you must breathe.

The only way I could see Chrysalis reforming would be if she found some source of love she could feed on that wouldn't drain it from sentient beings. Like how Angel from Buffy drinks blood from the blood bank.

[IridscentNionios 1,422]

@@Princess Lona,Yes she is like a parasite... who says she can't be a symbiotic one? One that helps the host as well become more powerful? Or even protects it like the microbes that live in your colon do? She is like that... potentially harmful if used wrongly. 

[Princess Lona 382]

@@Princess Lona,Yes she is like a parasite... who says she can't be a symbiotic one? One that helps the host as well become more powerful? Or even protects it like the microbes that live in your colon do? She is like that... potentially harmful if used wrongly.

 

That's a good idea. I would like to see how the writers would handle that.

[IridscentNionios 1,422]

@@Princess Lona, Yea me too... i mean look at how in the comics she, Sombra, and Discord protect Equestria!!! 

[Rainblow H. Ash 5,091]

Okay everypony is suddenly coming out saying that Chrysalis could be turned good and everything and how she really isn't evil because she and her kind need to eat love just to survive...

 

But she clearly is pretty darn evil. She tore apart Shining Armor from his loved ones, obviously wants to rule Equestria, loves to belittle others, and takes pleasure in the pain of others. There's a difference between getting food and being cruel to your food, after all.

 

We all would oppose a hunter who tortures animals before eating them, so we should also oppose Chrysalis as that is just what she's doing, in addition to wanting to rule over her food source and coccoon them up and replace all of them with her Changelings.

 

She's pretty evil. Just because in the comics there's an alternate universe where the villains are "good" doesn't mean that the real Chrysalis or Sombra are anything but cold-hearted evil.

[IridscentNionios 1,422]

 

 

Okay everypony is suddenly coming out saying that Chrysalis could be turned good and everything and how she really isn't evil because she and her kind need to eat love just to survive...

I am ignoring all the post but this because it is based upon the misconception that i don't think Chrysalis is evil... It's not that i don't think she's evil... if you notice past the last page what i have said about Discord just being accepted solely because he is canon you will understand that it's not whether or if Chrysalis or Discord are good or evil... it's about people just having compromised with what Hasbro has given them... 

She's evil true... but whoever said that redemptions are only for the "misunderstood". If you're "misunderstood" then you clearly don't need redemption you just need a therapist/someone to clear things up for you.

Making someone see his evil ways and ammend... that's what reformation is all about. That's what should be done with any villain to be reformed and that's what should have been done with Discord because Discord isn't self-conscious to the fact that he is evil... he isn't self-conscious to the fact that he hurt people and he doesn't understand that he has to make ammends... and he doesn't make ammends... And that's the bad thing... If per say Chrysalis understood, if she was self-coscious, if she tried to make ammends that would make for a Quality redemption... unlike Discord who just didn't want to lose Fluttershy... *blarg*.

 

She's pretty evil. Just because in the comics there's an alternate universe where the villains are "good" doesn't mean that the real Chrysalis or Sombra are anything but cold-hearted evil.

Don't put them into the same category... Sombra is worse than Chrysalis if you ask me... and Chrysalis hasn't been shown much other than the Canterlot wedding episodes to be explored thoroughly. Who says for example that this is just an ego problem she has... kinda like Trixie did ((also bonus they have the same voice actress)). Scare tactics might be the mask she hides behind to appear strong. She doesn't have to become goodie-touchies... but perhaps a truce with the ponies might be achievable...