Is Celestia really the right ruler for the job?

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Well, her and Discord it seems. I thought it was funny how Twilight seemed so assured of the Elements' safety in 'Keep Clam and Flutter On' because Celestia had enchanted them despite the fact that such measures had previously been taken and shown to be futile. Even if you want to claim that Celestia would likely have taken greater precaution this time we have no real way of knowing that and neither did Twilight.

Yep, that's just the kind of writer contrivance that was needed to make the episode work. Like really Celestia? You put them behind an unbreakable lock but you had a more effective countermeasure you just didn't feel like using at the time?

[Roughshod 719]

What both of you aren't seeing is that Celestia is over 1,000 years old.. shes getting tired and since Twilight and her friends are MUCH younger and full of life, she kind of has to let them deal with things like that.

 

If she is getting old and less capable then that only serves as yet another reason why she shouldn't be ruling Equestria. Although you wouldn't know her age to look at her since she seems to be at least physically nigh immortal. I somewhat disagree with that analysis though because it has been shown that Celestia can handle problematic situations that arise(Lesson Zero) as well perform her sun raising duties and perform strenuous magical acts(Twilight's Kingdom).

 

 

But you try being over 1,000 years old, handle the amount of stress Celestia has too, and the lonelyness for a thousand years while Luna was on the moon..

 

An obviously impossible and facetious request; tu quoque isn't necessary to defend Celestia's character, and neither is is it necessary to have experience in her type of position in order to be qualified to criticize her performance.

 

 

In conclusion, Celestia is tired and lost to Chrysalis because Chrysalis was super charged, while Celestia wasn't really ready for it

 

Yes, that seems to be the case. Just as she apparently isn't ready, willing or able to handle most of the problems that have arisen in Equestria lately. I think it's time for new management.

 

 

Equestria seems to be doing quite well as a whole. I think that Princess Celestia is doing fine.   Yes, there has been evil trying to murder or enslave Equestria, but she seems to be fine.

 

#sarcasm? The evil trying to murder and enslave Equestria is a pretty big caveat on your initial assertion. While Celestia may be "doing fine" in her castle that doesn't mean she is the optimal leader for her country.

 

There is not a great deal of information on her actual day-to-day responsibilities as a ruler but given the mostly egalitarian and liberal culture that Equestrian society seems to possess, as well it's citizens aversion to tyranny, it doesn't appear she is directly involved in much governing. Or if she is, it is largely a formal role. I would call her more of a figurehead than a proper ruler who is involved mostly in diplomatic situations, approving processes of government and only takes direct action in times of crisis(well, not so much lately).

 

 

A supporter of Celestia might consider this a point of credit for her, that she allows her citizens to have so much liberty... But on the flip-side this fact(if I am correct or at least close to being so) would also remove some of the credit given to her for administering Equestria. In particular her 1000 year reign, of which we know next to nothing, that many like to posit as a basis of her qualities as a ruler.

 

 

 

She's not evil, but she isn't very good at keeping Equestria safe. Actually, has she done ANYTHING good ever? Hmm

 

Most of the major villains that have appeared in the show(NMM, Discord, Sombra and Tirek) had previously been defeated by her solely or in conjunction with Luna. With this known it becomes increasingly odd that she seems so incapable or reluctant to do much of anything to stop them and instead just has the Mane 6 handle everything. The answer most people seem to think explains this is that she is simply grooming Twilight to take over her responsibilities and/or she is just older and not as strong as she once was. Either way it does little to justify her qualifications to rule.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Roughshod

[Gary S. 102]

Man, you really like pulling her to pieces, do you? Who else shall it be then?

 

Luna?

Season 5 spoiler:

 

She's getting a nightmare in season 5. It's crystal clear, she's losing her powers and gets old. She's unworthy to rule. Period.  :comeatus: 

 

Edited January 28, 2015 by Gary S.

[Roughshod 719]

Man, you really like pulling her to pieces, do you? Who else shall it be then?

Is this addressed to me? If so then yes, critiquing Celestia has proven to be both an interesting as well as nearly inexhaustible activity.

 

I believe that many on this forum want to defend her because they value her more as as an extension of the show than as a character in her own right. In other words, they perceive criticism of a character as an attack against all of MLP in its entirety and don't wan't to consider the possibility of a flaw existing in one of its characters as this may compromise their opinion of the show itself.* While it's only speculation and probably doesn't apply to all those who defend her, I do believe that a certain degree of insecurity resulting in defensiveness is the root of the backlash against many criticisms against her.

 

*This is not always the case, e.g. Flash Sentry. In the case of Flash there are several factors to consider: Lack of development, fairly bland character trope, label of being a 'waifu stealer', relative absence from the main series(thus being easier to alienate) and just good old fashioned bandwagon hating.

 

Luna?

Most of the criticisms I have made of Celestia could be attributed to Luna as well, at least partially as being an accomplice who almost never questions and certainly hasn't opposed her sister's actions or assisted to any real effect in any of th recent crises(The Return of Harmony, A Canterlot Wedding).

 

Season 5 spoiler:

 

She's getting a nightmare in season 5. It's crystal clear, she's losing her powers and gets old. She's unworthy to rule. Period. :comeatus:

 

Yes I've heard about it. I'll try to reserve any judgement until more is known about the details of this 'nightmare' and it's causes and consequences.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Roughshod

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Sooo to what do we attribute Celestia's gigantic absence during season 4? Was she kidnapped and no one noticed to go save her? Was she at a tropical island resort the whole time? Maybe a coma?

[Roughshod 719]

Probably doing what she does best: Sitting around and eating cake. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's how she spent the majority of her 1000 years of rule between Luna's banishment and the rediscovery of the EoH.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Roughshod

[Spartan 433]

 

Yes, that seems to be the case. Just as she apparently isn't ready, willing or able to handle most of the problems that have arisen in Equestria lately. I think it's time for new management.

 

 

Now i know you're just bashing Celestia LMAO! NO ONE knew that the Changlings where coming, they knew SOMEONE was plotting but not WHO. Also, again, NO ONE knew Cadence had been replaced by Chryslis, but Twilight suspected something was up.

 

Celestia lost in her fight with Chryslis because of all the love magic Chryslis absorbed from Shining Armor.

 

Plus, shes been at her job for longer than anyone currently known has been alive, Discord was turned to stone so he can't be compaired to her stress. But I'm sure you'll find a crazy way to spin this and claim she is still the wrong pony/person for the job

Edited January 29, 2015 by Spartan

[Scream Lucid Dream 103]

I dislike her as a matter of principle. I am opposed to spoilty (royalty) in reality (outside of Mlp.) Don't get me started on the UK's Spoiled family.

 

This bitterness and moral outrage towards the over-privilaged minority is so deeply ingrained that I cannot help but dislike Celestia even though she is a fictional cartoon pony, for crying out loud...

[Pineapple Bloom 511]

Aww, I love Celestia. She has a nice, motherly characteristic to her and I find her more appealing than Luna.

 

People's reaction when a character has no flaws: Mary suuueeee!

People's reaction when a character has flaws: Horrible character!

[Sunny Shimmer 259]

Celestia is right for ruling except protecting equestria. She just can't handle a super-charged villain like she used to. Which is why she is passing the torch onto a newer generation of ponies.

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,694]

Even though I've made many good-natured jokes comparing Celestia's use of the Mane 6 to the President putting six Girl Scouts in charge of national security, I don't necessarily have a problem with her standing back and giving Twilight problems to solve. (Twi has to learn by experience, after all.) I do have a problem with how Celestia goes about this.

 

For one thing, I don't like her sense of humor. Twilight practically worships Celestia and is 100% committed to being the best student she can be, and yet Celestia doesn't seem to take her seriously. She's distant, she's condescending, and she only treats Twi like a proper apprentice when she screws up (Lesson Zero) or a threat to her own authority is present (several premieres and finales). I don't want her to be an ogre, but the future of Equestria depends on how effective a mentor Celestia is to this pony...and she's just sitting back having her own good time. I don't like that. 

 

Celestia also withholds a lot of background information that, if revealed, might help Twilight to carry out her missions at less personal risk to her and her friends. But even though she knows most of the major villains and has fought them herself in the past, she rarely gives Twilight any pointers; she just says "here's another mess from my past, now clean it up." It's a wonder Twi survived long enough to be promoted.

 

It wouldn't bother me so much if Celestia were actually a strong presence in her own kingdom, ready and able to step forward and help Twi when things got dicey. I don't know how much of her former power was lost with the Elements of Harmony, but she is frequently absent from the big fights and when she is there, she's not much help. Nor do we get any sense of what she is doing instead, how she spends her free time, and what her rule has generally been like over the past thousand years. There are so many unanswered questions that we really can't say whether she's right for the job or not!   

 

If she is just a kindly, diminished ruler who's passing the torch, she's doing it in a dangerously roundabout way.

 

(All of this sidesteps whether I think Twilight should even be a future ruler...which is not the direction I expected or wanted the show to take, but that's for another discussion.)

[Roughshod 719]

Now i know you're just bashing Celestia LMAO!

 

While I do enjoy critiquing Celestia and consider myself pretty decent at doing at it I'm not doing so specifically out of some deep rooted hatred of her in particular, just the flaws I see. I could list some qualities I like about her(I also happen to enjoy cake) but that would partially undermine my argument that she is not the best suited candidate to rule. Also, it would be a pretty short list.

 

 

NO ONE knew that the Changlings where coming, they knew SOMEONE was plotting but not WHO. Also, again, NO ONE knew Cadence had been replaced by Chryslis, but Twilight suspected something was up.

 

True, obviously no one knew who was plotting to attack Canterlot because if they had then Chrysalis' plan would have failed immediately. Iv'e already pointed this out but I find it odd that Celestia seemed incapable of detecting any change in the character of her own niece. This only strengthens my view that she has a largely detached and aloof approach to those around her, just look at how well her relationship with Luna developed 1000 years ago(not that that was entirely her fault, but still).

 

 

Celestia lost in her fight with Chryslis because of all the love magic Chrysalis absorbed from Shining Armor.

 

That's right, Celestia not only has no ability to use the Elements anymore, but she's also less capable of defeating enemies like Chrysalis and Sombra than Cadance and Shining Armor. She certainly is a force to be reckoned with.

 

 

Plus, shes been at her job for longer than anyone currently known has been alive,

 

This is such a stale and feeble argument.

 

You're making the claim that just because she has ruled over Equestria for a millennium, the specifics of which we know  nothing about, that this is automatic justification for her current role. By saying this you're not only arguing on a basis of general ignorance but you're also sidestepping the real criticisms that are being made of her. The issues that are being used to criticize her are based on the events that have transpired in the show's current timeline, not 1000 years ago. Almost nothing is known about the time between Luna's banishment and the beginning of the show's current timeline which makes that period largely irrelevant. Just because Equestria has managed to survive all this time does not excuse her of her failings in the present, and with such little information on what she has done during those 1000 years there is no real basis to defend or attack her performance. Let's not forget that her 1000 year reign is completely reliant on her near immortality, something that she possesses innately as an Alicorn and does not deserve either praise or blame simply for an inherent trait. 

 

 

I dislike her as a matter of principle. I am opposed to spoilty (royalty) in reality (outside of Mlp.) Don't get me started on the UK's Spoiled family.

 

This bitterness and moral outrage towards the over-privilaged minority is so deeply ingrained that I cannot help but dislike Celestia even though she is a fictional cartoon pony, for crying out loud...

 

I can sympathize with this. The issue of her royal stature has been addressed previously in this forum: http://mlpforums.com/topic/114513-is-celestia-really-the-right-ruler-for-the-job/page-2#entry3270004

 

 

 

 

(All of this sidesteps whether I think Twilight should even be a future ruler...which is not the direction I expected or wanted the show to take, but that's for another discussion.)

 

 

@@Nightmare Muffin, Perhaps that should be a supplementary forum to this one?

Edited January 30, 2015 by Roughshod

[GreyScholar 1,584]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHpdWhFM6KI

Here is a video I feel can be considered quite fitting.

[True Rarity 1,239]

Here is a video I feel can be considered quite fitting.

 

Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

 

Princess Celestia is a wise and generous pony. She has her weaknesses, and at the same time, she knows exactly what to do and when. She only ever puts the large responsibility on Twilight when she knows she can handle it (or when Celestia gets kidnapped by magic vines). She knows exactly what's best for Equestria, and how to make sacrifices. I have no doubt that she will end up sacrificing herself, one day.

 

...Gosh, I hope that doesn't happen in the series finale.

[Pinkie-Guy 563]

I have no doubt that she will end up sacrificing herself, one day. ...Gosh, I hope that doesn't happen in the series finale.

 

Actually, I might like to see that, but not in the finale.  It's not that I'm out for Celestia or anything, but that I think a twist like that, done right could be a real evolutionary moment for the show.  Sometimes, killing off a character can be good move.  It's crucial to the story in Final Fantasy number

VII

.  Still, doing it wrong can cause an awful lot of damage.  It's not an arc to be taken lightly.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Pinkie-Guy

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Pinkie-Guy,

I will say if the writers did try something like that, it is with the hope that it would be both Celestia and Luna the sacrifice their lives.

 

I am of the belief that either both Celestia and Luna should rule together or neither of them should rule and both of them should be taken out of the picture. I don't want to see Luna ruling by herself now they the she and her sister have been reunited... that and blame certain fans. The following feeling came about because of my dislike of the Solar Empire and Lunar Republic, of Celestia being taken down so that Luna could rule alone.

Edited January 30, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[Pinkie-Guy 563]

@@Pinkie-Guy,

I will say if the writers did try something like that, it is with the hope that it would be both Celestia and Luna the sacrifice their lives.

 

I am of the belief that either both Celestia and Luna should rule together or neither of them should rule and both of them should be taken out of the picture. I don't want to see Luna ruling by herself now they the she and her sister have been reunited... that and blame certain fans. The following feeling came about because of my dislike of the Solar Empire and Lunar Republic, of Celestia being taken down so that Luna could rule alone.

That makes sense.  It'd be weird if there was only one of them.

[Roughshod 719]

Here is a video I feel can be considered quite fitting.

Question: Is this canon?

Answer: No it isn't.

 

Of course that's obvious to anyone who can see, hear or understand the dynamics of the show. The main point is that even if you want to argue for the points illustrated in the video you can only do so based on the personally chosen and reasoned principles. As far as this imagined dialogue between Twilight Sparkle and Princess Celestia is concerned: It never happened and should not be taken as a valid representation of the characters or events that are being portrayed.

 

In other words... Fan fiction is not proof.

 

 

 

P.S. Not a bad job with the voice acting though.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Roughshod

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Roughshod,

Yes but what is offered I feel is a fair view of Princess Celestia, and gives strong argument on why she is so important and such a good ruler. I don't care if it is fanfiction the comic proved a point many have been trying to make. 

[Roughshod 719]

@@EquestrianScholar, Well sure you do, why else would you post it on a forum where you are defending Celestia? But the argument is hardly substantial, it's based on slanted views and biased assumptions about all involved. First we see Celestia acting in this pathetic manner that has never been shown to be in her character and then the second half of is little more than Celestia worship. Equestria is full of love because of Celestia? What evidence is there for this? That's just an assumption from an ex post facto position with nothing to back it up but the desire for it to be true. So it should go without saying the majority of creative content revolves around a poorly masked exposition of the writers personal feelings. There's not even an attempt to remain objective or offer contrasting views except to bolster their agenda and point.

 

The fact that it is fan fiction makes it all the more suspect, and whether people here agree or disagree with the sentiments it doesn't alter the video's status as pure conjecture. Even I can put forward theories as to what may occur outside the canonical material but I don't assert it as fact or try to establish third party opinions as solid evidence for my personal stances.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Roughshod

[simply creative 696]

*In Big Macs voice*      (NOPE) .

 

XD

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Roughshod,

The fact is though Equestria is an idealized setting, especially where its good guys/leaders/heroines are concerned. Another fact though is Celestia is written to be a good, wise leader and mentor of her little ponies and a mother-like figure. The above video, for any bias you may argue, matches up with such views and thus I feel stays true to the heart of the matter.

 

Queen Chrysalis did say Equestria is a land filled with love, and to a certain degree a nation's happiness is tied to how well a ruler is doing their job. More the points Twilight make in that video are still valid, as really Equestria is as strong as it is because of friendship and working together for the benefit of all. That is what this show is about, the magic... power of friendship not the power of Princess Celestia or 'why can't she handle the problems Equestria faces all by herself'. You demand so much from Celestia, especially since if their is any fault it lies with the writers not the character.

 

We need a Celestia focused episode, for the writers to show what exactly Celestia does for her subjects day in and day out. Whether it is at the castle, at the School for Gifted Unicorns, meeting with dignitary or ambassadors, or yes taking care of a threat here and there... sadly we probably never will. Heck given the shows track record and how the writers may or may not be pandering to the fans a bit we are more likely to see more episodes with Luna in it not Celestia. -sighs-

Edited February 2, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[Roughshod 719]

The fact is though Equestria is an idealized setting, especially where its good guys/leaders/heroines are concerned.

 

That depends on what you define your ideals as though.

 

 

Another fact though is Celestia is written to be a good, wise leader

 

 

An obviously moot point since that is the issue being questioned in this forum... How many times do I have to repeat this?

 

 

The above video, for any bias you may argue, matches up with such views and thus I feel stays true to the heart of the matter.

 

Don't tell me that because the bias in that video matches your own bias that makes it correct. That's not a logical argument.

 

 

Queen Chrysalis did say Equestria is a land filled with love, and to a certain degree a nation's happiness is tied to how well a ruler is doing their job.

 

Causation does not equal correlation: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause This is dependent on what degree a ruler rules, which as of yet there is not substantial evidence. And even if there was, it doesn't erase her past mistakes anyway. 

 

 

More the points Twilight make in that video are still valid, as really Equestria is as strong as it is because of friendship and working together for the benefit of all. That is what this show is about, the magic... power of friendship not the power of Princess Celestia or 'why can't she handle the problems Equestria faces all by herself'.

 

This is really remarkable; on the one hand you attempt to preach that Celestia is a good ruler because she is able to help facilitate the magic of friendship in Equestria to its own benefit, but on the other you tell me not to conflate the influence of the two. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind seeing more characters take over Celestia's responsibilities and a more diversified power base take hold. I think that would likely do Equestria some good and consequently I hope Twilight new role will be more efficacious than her mentors. I also recognize Celestia can't handle all the problems herself(a flaw that's pretty clear ) but when she continues to make mistakes and endanger her country both through her actions and inaction... That's when I take the most issue with her position.

 

 

You demand so much from Celestia, especially since if their is any fault it lies with the writers not the character.

 

And you apparently demand very little... Odd considering you appear to have such esteem for her. The writers and not the character? If you're going to go that route then I'll say the blame falls on both, because the character is of course a product of the writers. But so what? i don't see you writing appraisals of the writers for Celestia's achievements, you seem to be endorsing a double standard: Blame the writers, praise the character. I won't partake in that hypocrisy.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Roughshod,

Sighs, maybe this line of arguing is pointless. I disagree that 'Celestia is not the right ruler for the job' but I don't seem to have the skill and now energy to debate this any more. Believe what you will, and I will try not to return to this thread, take it as a victory on your part I don't care. Maybe I can offer something stronger later though if I come back I may well just bring myself more frustration.

[Roughshod 719]

@@EquestrianScholar,

Victory? Not really in my view. When we disagree or at the very least question the possibility of agreeing on basic principles of each other's arguments then the debate can exhaust itself and result in repetition and vitriol. Nevertheless we're probably two of the biggest proponents here for either side so it's always interesting and I'm sure has room for further development. I will continue to follow the topic and see if any more intriguing perspectives come forth.

 

There is a new season on the horizon and that may open the possibility for more discussion and debate on the subject of princess Celestia's rule... We'll just have to wait and see.