Is Celestia really the right ruler for the job?

[LZRD WZRD 1,929]

Which Villian do you mean? NMM? Tirek? King Sombra?

NMM was trapped on the Moon for a thousand years due to limitations of using the EoH with only one person.

Discord was turned to stone and kept mostly secluded from any possible escape routes(all of which were unlikely to be known). Similar reason as NMM as the EoH can't kill or permantly imprison somepony.

King Sombra was defeated but cursed the Crystal Empire to disappear for a long time, not much you can do about that unless you want to go looking in the northern wastelands for him if he was still around waiting for the C-Empire to come back if he didn't disappear with it.

Tirek was in Tartarus until the guard dog left for some random reason. As far as Celestia knew, he was secured and locked up.

Any major villians I missed? Not seeing how she failed at keeping her Kingdom safe with the resources she had.

With NMM, she apparently ignored all of the warnings that she'd return. Then I guess she sat around in her castle while the mane six attempted to stop her (and don't tell me the writers explained later she was trapped in the sun. There is no indication of this in the episode, plus seeing how Celestia knows exactly where and how NMM was defeated at the end, I assume she was just watching the whole thing go down. Kind of like a test! )

 

With Discord, she leaves him on display in her garden, where any punk can just bump into it, or so e crazy cult of Discord extremist could come and access it. Then, her only way to stop him and the only ponies who can use the weapons to stop him are located in separate towns, further separated by a vault only Celestia can open. Makes perfect sense -_-

 

Chrysalis. She just stands there while she monologues and then openly challenges her. Then her best plan is to shoot magic laser beams at her horn, which she fails miserably at. Once again, the elements still are not in possession of the only ponies who can wield them.

 

Sombra. Made it into a test for Twilight. Plus the elements were not taken along. Plus she and Luna just sat in the castle. This is probably the least stupid one, but still contains a few slip-ups.

 

Tirek. Her only security for this maniac is a stupid dog. Then when he leaves his post, Celestia never follows through to check up on Tirek. Then when he escapes, for some reason she decides Discord, a recovering sadistic sociopath, is the best person to stop a relatively weak, yet still cunning and dangerous villain. Then she gives Twilight all of their magic, but leaves that stupid picture of her in the window of the throne room.

 

 

TLDR: Celestia sucks at keeping Equestria safe

[Lightning Dash 327]

I'd have to disagree.

 

I believe Celestia knew from the very beginning that Twilight was to be the Princess of Friendship and as Equestria didn't have one until Twilight, she knew it would greatly benefit all of Equestria. She most likely knew that Twilight was destined to become the Princess of friendship.

 

I'm pretty sure that all these things Celestia had Twilight do were all tests for her and her friends so that one day Twilight would be ready to became the Princess of friendship along side her friends. That's why she put faith and responsibility in Twilight to restore Princess Luna. It's also why she insisted it should be Twilight to obtain and deliver the Crystal Heart to Cadence. Allowing Twilight and her friends, mainly Fluttershy to reform Discord because she knew they were more than capable. After all of these events and tests, Twilight became that Princess of friendship thus Equestria being complete with the four Alicorns to maintain both order and harmony.

 

I doubt Celestia would have her other students do the things she got Twilight to do but the reason as to why, I've said above. It was always Twilight that she went to anyway as we all know, all for the trail of becoming an Alicorn > Princess of friendship. Sure, some of the things may of been rather dramatic but she knew Twilight and friends were capable and that it would of been for a great call.

 

To answer your master question - Yes, but keep in mind, Celestia is a semi-ruler, not full on, only by day. You may look at her as being a 'slave-driver' towards Twilight but good leadership doesn't always involve the leader doing everything.

 

It's pretty simple; Experience is best served first-hand. All so that Twilight was to be ready for what she was destined to become.

Edited December 13, 2014 by -Celestia-

[Roughshod 719]

I believe Celestia knew from the very beginning that Twilight was to be the Princess of Friendship and as Equestria didn't have one until Twilight, she knew it would greatly benefit all of Equestria. She most likely knew that Twilight was destined to become the Princess of friendship.

 

Well hindsight is 20/20, do you have anything to back that up with? It's easy enough to claim what a character may or may not have known without any corroborating evidence. I could see how you might point to the Tree of Harmony and the fact that its symbols are identical to cutie marks of the Mane 6, but Princess Celestia herself admitted the she and Luna had been disconnected from them a very long time ago, long before Twilight's time. So I find it hard to believe that Celestia had some innate awareness that Twilight was always destined to be the Princess of Friendship simply from the remote fact that she had natural magical talent or that her cutie mark was similar to that of a relic she apparently hadn't seen in over a thousand years. 

 

'Destiny' of some sort certainly seems to exist in the world of Equestria, but that is not an excuse for the failings of Celestia's tenure as its ruler or the inherent problems I see in its very nature.

 

Also, by using destiny as a point of argument, aren't you essentially implying that Celestia is destined to be an incompetent ruler?

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that all these things Celestia had Twilight do were all tests for her and her friends so that one day Twilight would be ready to became the Princess of friendship along side her friends. That's why she put faith and responsibility in Twilight to restore Princess Luna. It's also why she insisted it should be Twilight to obtain and deliver the Crystal Heart to Cadence. Allowing Twilight and her friends, mainly Fluttershy to reform Discord because she knew they were more than capable. After all of these events and tests, Twilight became that Princess of friendship thus Equestria being complete with the four Alicorns to maintain both order and harmony. I doubt Celestia would have her other students do the things she got Twilight to do but the reason as to why, I've said above. It was always Twilight that she went to anyway as we all know, all for the trail of becoming an Alicorn > Princess of friendship. Sure, some of the things may of been rather dramatic but she knew Twilight and friends were capable and that it would of been for a great call.

 

 

Again, this is all after-the-fact self justification without any coherent line of reasoning.

 

None of the trials and tribulations that Twilight and her friends faced directly resulted in her becoming an alicorn, It was Celestia herself who made that transformation possible as result of her choice stemming from her personal judgement and opinion. She(Celestia) could have made Twilight a princess whenever she wanted since she clearly had the power to do so(ignoring the reality that it was obviously just a ploy to sell more dolls). From this point of view it becomes clear that Celestia is either directly or indirectly responsible for nearly all the major events that have occurred in the series.

 

i'll also state that there is no concrete proof for your claim that Celestia was involved with Twilight's assisting Luna's acclimation into the modern world. As far as we know Luna went to the Nightmare Night celebration of her own accord. After all it is dedicated to her in a way.

 

 

 

Celestia is a semi-ruler, not full on, only by day. You may look at her as being a 'slave-driver' towards Twilight but good leadership doesn't always involve the leader doing everything.

 

 

Celestia ruled Equestria by herself for over a millennium and even in regards to the other princesses it seems pretty obvious that she has the most seniority and final word, just look at how she dissuaded Luna from joing the Mane 6 in going to the Crystal Empire. In any case Celestia is the ruler that Twilight and the others have the most interaction with and take direction from. Your argument would only further indict Luna and Cadance rather than redeem Celestia from her mistakes.

 

 

 

good leadership doesn't always involve the leader doing everything.

 

 

No, but it does generally require them to what they're supposed to well. Granted it seems like Celestia did a fairly good job for most of her rule; it's the events that have transpired recently and her lack of ability to meet them that sparks the most criticism.

 

 

 

It's pretty simple; Experience is best served first-hand. All so that Twilight was to be ready for what she was destined to become.

 

 

By it's definition experience can only be had first-hand, and again you bring in circular reasoning to justify your point. If Twilight was ready to become what she is then when was this decided? And by whom?  By Celestia of course, through her own discretion. Does this in and of itself make her less qualified as a ruler? Not necessarily but it does raise the question of why Celestia cannot fill the role of promoting the magic of friendship throughout her kingdom. Obviously this is not something she is capable of doing despite being probably the most powerful pony existing and that is inherently a shortcoming and thus a flaw.

 

 

 

 

In conclusion I put forward the following charges against Her Royal Highness, Princess Celestia:

 

1. That she has willingly and frequently enabled the endangerment and suffering of her students and subjects.
2. That she has done so with the sole intention of fulfilling her own aims and desires without the consultation or consensus of those involved.
3. That the aforementioned endangering actions towards others could have reasonably and with due action been avoided if not outright prevented had she not acted on mere whim and selfish intent.
4. That the primary reasoning for her doing so can be reckoned as the fulfilling of duty and station that she herself is incapable of doing but required the promotion of one of her students, i.e. Her Royal Highness, Twilight Sparkle, Princess of Friendship. 
5. That while having the ability to do so at anytime she wished as well as evidently the only one with this capacity, she chose not to until she was personally satisfied, without full regard to her responsibilities to her nation as its primary sovereign.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Roughshod

[Fractured 2,684]

In conclusion I put forward the following charges against Her Royal Highness, Princess Celestia:

 

1. That she has willingly and frequently enabled the endangerment and suffering of her students and subjects.
2. That she has done so with the sole intention of fulfilling her own aims and desires without the consultation or consensus of those involved.
3. That the aforementioned endangering actions towards others could have reasonably and with due action been avoided if not outright prevented had she not acted on mere whim and selfish intent.
4. That the primary reasoning for her doing so can be reckoned as the fulfilling of duty and station that she herself is incapable of doing but required the promotion of one of her students, i.e. Her Royal Highness, Twilight Sparkle, Princess of Friendship. 
5. That while having the ability to do so at anytime she wished as well as evidently the only one with this capacity, she chose not to until she was personally satisfied, without full regard to her responsibilities to her nation as its primary sovereign.

 

Hey look, Roughshod's back

 

#1... well, yeah, I have to agree with you there. How she dealt with the Crystal Empire was pretty damn stupid. She bet on the survival of the entire kingdom and its citizens when she let Twilight go by herself to find the Crystal Heart. Twilight's Kingdom was was almost as bad, maybe worse; instead of going with Discord or even sending Twilight or another alicorn to assist him, she let him go by himself when he'd just been reformed, barely that; she had to have known she couldn't trust him. Then she gave all the alicorn magic to Twilight, making her a prime target for both Tirek and the magic sensing Discord. So yeah, guilty as charged.

 

#2 I can't agree with, simply because there wasn't anything to be gained by letting Twilight constantly screw things up. Pretty much every time she would have failed would have been an end of the world scenario, and even if we're assuming Celestia is in it for riches/fame etc., she's not stupid enough to think she could really keep her throne with Discord/Chrysalis/Tirek running around. So, no, not selfish, just incompetent. Innocent on this account.

 

#3 Counts for both Luna, where her own selfishness played a part in her transformation into Nightmare Moon, and Discord, for whom she was dumb enough to place his statue in a public garden. You could also make a case for Chrysalis, where she failed to recognize her own niece was acting differently, and didn't trust the word of her own student when the castle was under red alert. Guilty again.

 

#4 Yeah...  but I think she knows that. Twilight's the arms; Celestia's the head. Somebody has to handle the diplomacy, paperwork, etc. while someone's off saving the world, and Luna's 1000 years behind. I think this was a smart idea, though she is still very guilty as per lettering.

 

#5 Well... it's probably not a smart idea just to hand people alicorn powers. I suspect however bad Lesson Zero was, it would've been ten times worse with Twilight having that much more power. Someone would need to be put through a lot of difficult tests to make sure they're worthy, otherwise, you'll just become bigger than the issue you're trying to solve. So innocent on account of a very justifiable reason; no one wants Nightmare Friendship running around because later Celestia found out Twilight couldn't handle it.

 

So score runs:

#1: guilty as charged

#2: innocent of malicious intent

#3 Guilty( of incompetence, selfishness, and narrow- mindedness)

#4 Guilty(but only by lettering. It's still a very smart idea.) 

#5 Innocent(by account of to do so would have been just as bad, if not worse than doing so. Though risky, she showed proper thinking.)

[Dulset Tarn 441]

She may be really badly written lately, but I still find the idea of getting missions from her a lot less unsettling than what the next premiere has in store...

[Roughshod 719]

Being guilty of two out of five(by your judgement) is still pretty bad. I want to address some of your comments though.

 

#2 I can't agree with, simply because there wasn't anything to be gained by letting Twilight constantly screw things up. Pretty much every time she would have failed would have been an end of the world scenario, and even if we're assuming Celestia is in it for riches/fame etc., she's not stupid enough to think she could really keep her throne with Discord/Chrysalis/Tirek running around. So, no, not selfish, just incompetent. Innocent on this account.

 

When I said "her own aims and desires" I wasn't specifically referring to personal ambition or greed, more like single-minded self-absorption, which I believe is a serious flaw for someone in a leadership position. As you said it does come down more to incompetence but even if there's no malicious intent directly involved I still believe that's an indictable offense for a ruler, especially when it's as recurring as this case. Of course, being a perpetual sovereign in a non-democratic country means Celestia is probalby not held accountable as much as most leaders we know of.

 

No real consultation or apparent desire for consensus, which, given the type of position she holds makes sense in a way but does not justify her actions to me. But let's not get into political theory too much.

 

#5 Well... it's probably not a smart idea just to hand people alicorn powers. I suspect however bad Lesson Zero was, it would've been ten times worse with Twilight having that much more power. Someone would need to be put through a lot of difficult tests to make sure they're worthy, otherwise, you'll just become bigger than the issue you're trying to solve. So innocent on account of a very justifiable reason; no one wants Nightmare Friendship running around because later Celestia found out Twilight couldn't handle it.

 

#5 Innocent(by account of to do so would have been just as bad, if not worse than doing so. Though risky, she showed proper thinking.)

By this account the user whom I was primarily responding to account of 'destiny' begins to look a lot less credible. If Twilight did fail to use her alicorn power appropriately then obviously part of the blame would fall on Celestia for giving it to her in the first place. I would go further; as Twilight's teacher such a result would be a consequence of Celestia's poor judgement and training. I also still don't agree that such training required such dangerous action and I wonder how any country's leader can think it appropriate to simply sit back and do nothing, even at the moment of peril, in defence of their nation just to prove a point to their student.

 

I find that to be a highly vain and frankly stupid action.

 

This may look like I'm being overly critical or too demanding but keep in mind that this is a character that is often portrayed and interpreted as a virtually flawless, infallible,almost divine being. At least at first glance. I believe this standard warrants especially high standards for behaviour and conduct.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Roughshod

[Pastel 7,630]

Her job is quite hard, she has to rule a whole continent.

I think she's doing quite well, there's no war or things like that.

[Pinkieandsuch 38]

Pinkies the right pony for the job!

 

 

 

 

 

 

ALL HAIL QUEEN PINKIE PIE!

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Roughshod,

Again Celestia did not turn Twilight into an alicorn, she merely pointed and prodded her student into the right direction to become one herself.

 

Also do not forget or put aside the book Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell where it offers Cadance's origins, nor the book The Journal of the Two Sisters where is offers more lore involving the alicorn sisters and the Tree of Harmony. 

Edited January 16, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[Dulset Tarn 441]

@@Roughshod,

Again Celestia did not turn Twilight into an alicorn, she merely pointed and prodded her student into the right direction to become one herself.

 

Also do not forget or put aside the book Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell where it offers Cadance's origins, nor the book The Journal of the Two Sisters where is offers more lore involving the alicorn sisters and the Tree of Harmony. 

You still can't really deny that Twilight is only a princess because Celestia said she was. Even if you actually believe that Twilight became an alicorn of her own merits, the entire princess thing was just Celestia's word.

[Shadow Beam 1,179]

Celestia?

Tired?

Old?

...

 

 

Seriously? Even with a thousand years she's biologically young.

 

Still, yeah, She can be pretty annoying somethimes. But I kinda like that

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Dulset Tarn,

Well when Celestia first meet young Cadance as an alicorn in that astral plane shown in the MMC she did officially adopt the foal into the royal family, thus her gaining princess. As such it makes sense that Celestia would crown Twilight a princess as well once she was an alicorn, though given the marriage of Cadance and Shining Armour... Twilight was technically already a member of the royal family.

Edited January 16, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[Dulset Tarn 441]

As such it makes sense that Celestia would crown Twilight a princess as well once she was an alicorn

By which you mean it makes no sense at all?

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Dulset Tarn,

Twilight is a member of the royal family, and just recently ascended into an alicornhood... yes it makes sense.

 

Especially when once considers Faust and thus arguably Celestia had always intended Twilight to be her successor. Even the Tree of Harmony shows Twilight will come after the alicorn sisters, discussed in the Journal of the Two Sisters.

Edited January 16, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[Shadow Beam 1,179]

Guys, I don't really think that Celestia or Luna will leave their thrones anytime soon.

 

Every princess has it's own job. And I don't really think that Twilight will have a longer life span than before. I guess the long life is more of a "High Ruler of Equestria" kind of thing.

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@,

Well I do admit, since the royal sisters are born alicorns while Cadance and Twilight transformed into such.... I feel there would be difference, counting aging. That and it has been confirmed Twilight will not outlive her friends.

Edited January 16, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[Shadow Beam 1,179]

Exactly. 

And also, Cadance shouln't outlive her husband, since she is the "Princess of Love"

[Fractured 2,684]

When I said "her own aims and desires" I wasn't specifically referring to personal ambition or greed, more like single-minded self-absorption, which I believe is a serious flaw for someone in a leadership position. As you said it does come down more to incompetence but even if there's no malicious intent directly involved I still believe that's an indictable offense for a ruler, especially when it's as recurring as this case. Of course, being a perpetual sovereign in a non-democratic country means Celestia is probalby not held accountable as much as most leaders we know of.

 

No real consultation or apparent desire for consensus, which, given the type of position she holds makes sense in a way but does not justify her actions to me. But let's not get into political theory too much.

The only thing I can say on this without diving into assumption is that there does seem to be some sort of alicorn hierarchy, possibly determined by age. Celestia may have the best ideas, she may not, but we can't know because time and time again, the other alicorns don't really say anything except to nod in agreement with her thoughts and actions.

 

 

By this account the user whom I was primarily responding to account of 'destiny' begins to look a lot less credible. If Twilight did fail to use her alicorn power appropriately then obviously part of the blame would fall on Celestia for giving it to her in the first place. I would go further; as Twilight's teacher such a result would be a consequence of Celestia's poor judgement and training. I also still don't agree that such training required such dangerous action and I wonder how any country's leader can think it appropriate to simply sit back and do nothing, even at the moment of peril, in defence of their nation just to prove a point to their student.

 

I find that to be a highly vain and frankly stupid action.

She's not only a unicorn with magic as a special talent, she's a wielder of the Elements of Harmony. We've seen what happened to Sunset Shimmer when she was corrupted with one piece... imagine if a corrupted Twilight somehow found herself with the full set. As sad as it is to say, even the potential loss of an entire kingdom is still worth the cost if it makes sure Twilight was properly ready.

...Man it hurt to type that.

[StitchandMLPlover 930]

 

 

banishing Sombra, and releasing him for Twi to permanently deal with 1000 years later, ect)

She didn't release Sombra. He came back as some ghost like being. And I don't think Celestia helped Nightmare Moon escape. I wouldn't mind Celestia being more "pro active" which is why I wrote her that way in my latest fan fic here http://stitchthebest36.deviantart.com/art/MLP-The-musical-Changeling-battle-507255041 

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@,

I feel a full 4 seasons of character development and growth from Twilight, will for the most part prove effective in assuring Twilight wont become evil or corrupt as an alicorn princess thus becoming a threat to Equestria. Heck, Celestia has had a 1000+ years to fall from grace yet she hasn't thus proving that power does not always corrupt.

 

@@StitchandMLPlover,

I wouldn't actually call him a ghost, but more suggest he had become a shadowy being of sorts that become fully solidified as a pony on almost reaching his goal of regaining the Crystal Heart and the Crystal Empire.

Edited January 16, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[Cleverclover 1,526]

Celestia is incapable of making sound decisions anymore. She has been run into the ground pretty damn hard, and I hardly see any reason as to why she should still be ruling the country. 

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,161]

She didn't release Sombra. He came back as some ghost like being. And I don't think Celestia helped Nightmare Moon escape. I wouldn't mind Celestia being more "pro active" which is why I wrote her that way in my latest fan fic here http://stitchthebest36.deviantart.com/art/MLP-The-musical-Changeling-battle-507255041

 

 

 

@@StitchandMLPlover,

I wouldn't actually call him a ghost, but more suggest he had become a shadowy being of sorts that become fully solidified as a pony on almost reaching his goal of regaining the Crystal Heart and the Crystal Empire.

 

Just for clarification Sombra was turned to shadow by the royal sisters before encasing him in a icy prison. That shadowy part of him was purified once he got closer to the Crystal Heart itself.

[Shadow Beam 1,179]

Celestia is incapable of making sound decisions anymore. She has been run into the ground pretty damn hard, and I hardly see any reason as to why she should still be ruling the country. 

That sun doesn't drag himself you know

[Cleverclover 1,526]

That sun doesn't drag himself you know

 

I suppose not. 

 

 

 

She's not only a unicorn with magic as a special talent, she's a wielder of the Elements of Harmony. We've seen what happened to Sunset Shimmer when she was corrupted with one piece... imagine if a corrupted Twilight somehow found herself with the full set. As sad as it is to say, even the potential loss of an entire kingdom is still worth the cost if it makes sure Twilight was properly ready.

 

 

Oh, please. We're talking about the same pony who can apparently bring herself to the point of wanting to take a life, and then just snap right back to normal, mentally unscathed. Twilight is virtually incorruptible. 

[GreyScholar 1,584]

@@Cleverclover, 

Can you back this up? I admit, the fact the writers seem disinterested in developing Celestia's character or go into want she actually does while the Mane Six save the day doesn't help, but you can really only criticize a few of her discisions. Even then you don't have enough of the 'full picture' to really complain, only bits and pieces of the situation.

Edited January 16, 2015 by EquestrianScholar