My Problem With G4 Tirek

[Castle Bleck 19,449]

You could argue that Discord's entire lack of a real purpose was his purpose thanks to both is chaotic powers and reign. Once things were chaotic he had what he wanted and it would just stay chaotic if he had his way. It's in his nature to be whimsical rather than be working toward a goal.

 

^This.

 

He never wanted to "rule," just have unlimited breathing room with his GTA-cheat-code-like powers.

[Cleverclover 1,526]

To him, he's already won. The difference between that situation and the situation with the other three alicorns is that he hadn't won by that point in time. Also, if he had not let them free, he wouldn't have been able to obtain Twilight's magic since they'd been at a stalemate. You are right in that nothing was stopping him from banishing them after that but what would the point of that be? Wasted effort if he was in full belief that there was no magic left in Equestria that could stop him.

 

It doesn't matter if he felt that he already won. The point is that his character had been established as being vengeful and petty, and thus I simply find it hard to accept that he wouldn't outright banish/kill Twilight if for no other reason than to punish her.

 

It simply feels far too contrived that he would just let go of his scornful feelings towards her on the spot. After all, he certainly did not seem to have any qualms about killing her just moments before. 

[Dulset Tarn 441]

It doesn't matter if he felt that he already won. The point is that his character had been established as being vengeful and petty, and thus I simply find it hard to accept that he wouldn't outright banish/kill Twilight if for no other reason than to punish her.

 

It simply feels far too contrived that he would just let go of his scornful feelings towards her on the spot. After all, he certainly did not seem to have any qualms about killing her just moments before. 

Ken has already conceded that his points have nothing to do with logic, so there's nothing left to be accomplished with words.

[Prince Firemane 309]

I have to agree with Clover on this one. I don't really see why he would banish the other three Princesses to Tartarus, but not Twilight. Celestia and Luna makes sense, it's revenge for sending him there in the first place. But then why Cadance? Simply because she was in the room with them?

[Cloud Strife 928]

It doesn't matter if he felt that he already won. The point is that his character had been established as being vengeful and petty, and thus I simply find it hard to accept that he wouldn't outright banish/kill Twilight if for no other reason than to punish her.

 

It simply feels far too contrived that he would just let go of his scornful feelings towards her on the spot. After all, he certainly did not seem to have any qualms about killing her just moments before. 

 

I think the problem here seems to be that you gathered a different character than I did when I saw Tirek. You see him as vengeful and petty, which doesn't make sense to me because then, why would he attack other ponies than the alicorns? I saw him as power-hungry. His ultimate goal from the very beginning, it seemed to me, was not to get vengeance on ponies, but to steal their power in a way that they're unable to counter.

 

Something to note - "qualms about killing her just moments before" - Twilight threw the first punch, not Tirek. Yes, Tirek destroyed her library but he didn't outright attack her until she did. Also, if his intention was to kill all the alicorns, why didn't he kill the three that he met powerless to stop him? He simply banished them to Tartarus, something I would surmise a villain only to do because they believe that those characters would get in the way. Doesn't sound like some kind of vengeance to me.

[yeet 2,027]

It doesn't matter if he felt that he already won. The point is that his character had been established as being vengeful and petty, and thus I simply find it hard to accept that he wouldn't outright banish/kill Twilight if for no other reason than to punish her.

 

It simply feels far too contrived that he would just let go of his scornful feelings towards her on the spot. After all, he certainly did not seem to have any qualms about killing her just moments before.

 

he was probably savering the moment. He has banished three of the alicorns. And he has the last one 'powerless', it's the type of cliche thing we see in many movies and TV shows. (GAME OF THRONES SEASON FOUR SPOILER, and I dunno how to make spoilers hidden on ipad).

 

The mountain is on the floor, he looks like he's gonna die, but the other person is shouting stuff at him, then boom, mountain fucking anihilates him. You'd expect the other guy to just kill him, but he was savering about to kill the person who raped and killed his sister. But he gets killed gruesomely instead.

 

Tirek is back, he's banished the three alicorns and has all four alicorns powers. He's basically taken over equestria and also has discords power. He is savering the moment, probably wanting to see the mane six beg for their lives. But instead he gets wrecked by hasbros next toy line.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I have to agree with Clover on this one. I don't really see why he would banish the other three Princesses to Tartarus, but not Twilight. Celestia and Luna makes sense, it's revenge for sending him there in the first place. But then why Cadance? Simply because she was in the room with them?

Maybe I'm weird but what bothered me the most about that is, how DID he send the princesses to Tartarus? We know it's a physical place, Twilight ran there and back in a day. But we also know that Tirek can't really cast spells. He steals power from others but he clearly can't use it in any form but raw force. Even after stealing the flight of every pegasus in Equestria, he can't actually fly. Same with Discord's near-infinite magic. So then when Tirek opens a portal to Tartarus and hurls the princesses in it's just... what? Where did that come from? Is that just a thing Tirek can do? It's just as out of place and random as Celestia's vision of Tirek in the first place.

[NotoriousSMALL 1,984]

@@Arctofire, I agree that Tirek got less and less scary as he absorbed the ponies' magic. But do you think a battle against his original form would have been interesting?

 

well he is pulling off the archwizard hermit look off pretty good

[Singe 2,111]

The major villians in both FIM and EG all aim for a power grab of some kind. Tirek joins the ranks of Chrysalis and the Dazzlings.

[Cleverclover 1,526]

I think the problem here seems to be that you gathered a different character than I did when I saw Tirek. You see him as vengeful and petty, which doesn't make sense to me because then, why would he attack other ponies than the alicorns? I saw him as power-hungry. His ultimate goal from the very beginning, it seemed to me, was not to get vengeance on ponies, but to steal their power in a way that they're unable to counter.

 

He was power-hungry, but he also believed that he was actually entitled to ponies' magic. He was getting his revenge by taking it back, and making their lives a living hell once he was in total control. 

 

Something to note - "qualms about killing her just moments before" - Twilight threw the first punch, not Tirek. Yes, Tirek destroyed her library but he didn't outright attack her until she did.

 

Actually, that's wrong. Because the blast that destroyed the library was intended for Twilight. He's the one who started the fight, and he's also the one who stopped it once he realized how badly he was getting his ass handed to him by a pony about a tenth of his size, no less. 

 

Bottom line, I simply do not see the same character who sent three other alicorns to Pony Hell for doing absolutely nothing to him except for denying him magic letting the alicorn who laid down a savage beating on him to the point where he had to resort to using hostages to win go free. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by Cleverclover

[Fractured 2,684]

Bottom line, I simply do not see the same character who sent three other alicorns to Pony Hell for doing absolutely nothing to him except for denying him magic letting the alicorn who laid down a savage beating on him to the point where he had to resort to using hostages to win go free. 

It's because there are several distinctly different Tirek's in this episode. The better original Tirek (first form) was obviously reading the Evil Overlord List. He would've presumably crushed the Mane Six, or at the very least banished them like he did with the alicorns. Even when he absorbed the magic of the three races(second form)  I still would've given him that, even though he got significantly dumber. (Moving out of the shadows, betraying your second in command, not analyzing your opponents etc.)

 

...Unfortunately, as it always does, it seems ultimate power comes with a free idiot ball. After absobing the power of the alicorns, Tirek (final form) presumably went off to chase butterflies and mark his territory while the Mane Six got their power-ups. :okiedokielokie:

 

My biggest issue is the fact that the writing here is obviously so lazy; he very clearly moves off in the opposite direction after his last boost. Then minutes later, he bee-lines back towards the Mane Six like he has a personal grudge? Why didn't you just kill them before...?

[Castle Bleck 19,449]

It's because there are several distinctly different Tirek's in this episode. The better original Tirek (first form) was obviously reading the Evil Overlord List. He would've presumably crushed the Mane Six, or at the very least banished them like he did with the alicorns. Even when he absorbed the magic of the three races(second form)  I still would've given him that, even though he got significantly dumber. (Moving out of the shadows, betraying your second in command, not analyzing your opponents etc.)

 

...Unfortunately, as it always does, it seems ultimate power comes with a free idiot ball. After absobing the power of the alicorns, Tirek (final form) presumably went off to chase butterflies and mark his territory while the Mane Six got their power-ups. :okiedokielokie:

 

My biggest issue is the fact that the writing here is obviously so lazy; he very clearly moves off in the opposite direction after his last boost. Then minutes later, he bee-lines back towards the Mane Six like he has a personal grudge? Why didn't you just kill them before...?

 

It was very similar to how Imperfect Cell from DBZ would just hit-and-run and cut any losses, but got complacent after becoming Perfect Cell (which led to Gohan giving him Nightmare Fuel).

[Prince Firemane 309]

Maybe I'm weird but what bothered me the most about that is, how DID he send the princesses to Tartarus? We know it's a physical place, Twilight ran there and back in a day. But we also know that Tirek can't really cast spells. He steals power from others but he clearly can't use it in any form but raw force. Even after stealing the flight of every pegasus in Equestria, he can't actually fly. Same with Discord's near-infinite magic. So then when Tirek opens a portal to Tartarus and hurls the princesses in it's just... what? Where did that come from? Is that just a thing Tirek can do? It's just as out of place and random as Celestia's vision of Tirek in the first place.

It seems to me that Tirek has the ability to cast basic spells based on how much magic he's absorbed. I don't think he's limited to only using the absorbed magic as raw force, I think he just chooses to do so. Aside from opening that portal, he melted Twilight's stained glass window instead of blasting it into oblivion and he teleported Twilight's friends in magic bubbles. He has the ability to cast at least some forms of spells, but his MO is just brute force.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

It seems to me that Tirek has the ability to cast basic spells based on how much magic he's absorbed. I don't think he's limited to only using the absorbed magic as raw force, I think he just chooses to do so. Aside from opening that portal, he melted Twilight's stained glass window instead of blasting it into oblivion and he teleported Twilight's friends in magic bubbles. He has the ability to cast at least some forms of spells, but his MO is just brute force.

Doesn't make sense to me, but more importantly, wouldn't sending things to Tartarus be an alicorn spell if anything?

[Prince Firemane 309]

Doesn't make sense to me, but more importantly, wouldn't sending things to Tartarus be an alicorn spell if anything?

I doubt it. As you have said, Tartarus is tangible place, Twilight was able to travel there and back within a day. I imagine that magically creating a portal to a location within the departure point's own universe and dimension would be a relatively simple task, if power-consuming. With absorbing magic of nearly the entire Unicorn population of Equestria, Tirek would undoubtedly have enough power to open a portal to Tartarus without Alicorn magic.

[Dulset Tarn 441]

I doubt it. As you have said, Tartarus is tangible place, Twilight was able to travel there and back within a day. I imagine that magically creating a portal to a location within the departure point's own universe and dimension would be a relatively simple task, if power-consuming. With absorbing magic of nearly the entire Unicorn population of Equestria, Tirek would undoubtedly have enough power to open a portal to Tartarus without Alicorn magic.

I know this is getting a bit deeper than we probably anticipated, but what about this? Tartarus is a prison, meant to hold terribly evil creatures. Clearly getting in or out should be only possible for a select few. Twilight did not go into Tartarus, she brought Cerberus back to the gates. We'd assume he didn't send the princesses there or they'd be able to just walk out (Celestia literally owns Cerberus) but actually imprisoned them there. Opening a portal to inside a heavily guarded prison cannot possibly be a "relatively simple task" or the creatures inside would be getting out all the time!

[Prince Firemane 309]

I know this is getting a bit deeper than we probably anticipated, but what about this? Tartarus is a prison, meant to hold terribly evil creatures. Clearly getting in or out should be only possible for a select few. Twilight did not go into Tartarus, she brought Cerberus back to the gates. We'd assume he didn't send the princesses there or they'd be able to just walk out (Celestia literally owns Cerberus) but actually imprisoned them there. Opening a portal to inside a heavily guarded prison cannot possibly be a "relatively simple task" or the creatures inside would be getting out all the time!

Well, opening a portal leading into Tartarus may be simple while opening a portal out of it may be difficult. Not to mention, Tartarus, despite being a prison, doesn't seem terribly well guarded. Cerberus leaving for less than a day was more than enough for Tirek to not only escape, but said escape remaining unnoticed for over two full seasons. Which, given that a year passes between seasons one and four, could translate to roughly six months that nobody noticed Tirek gone. That's some pretty shitty security if you ask me. It's also worth noting that we saw three "cells" in Tartarus, one obviously belonging to Tirek, but two others that were also empty. Who knows how many creatures really have escaped?

[Arctofire 227]

Which, given that a year passes between seasons one and four

 

This is incorrect, you have no proof of this. They never specified in Princess Twilight Sparkle that this was the SECOND time they'd been together at the Summer Sun Celebration. In fact, from Twilight's tone, it seemed like they went very frequently for a good few years.

 

If you count, you'll see. Bear in mind that in Return of Harmony, they showed by the amount of letters that not every letter one of the mane 6 sends they show the story of.

 

Friendship is Magic - Summer

Winter Wrap Up - Spring next year

Fall Weather Friends - Fall, an entire year has passed since pilot.

I recon these two have more space between them, and didn't happen by air date.

Luna Eclipsed - Still Fall, just near the end

Hearths Warming Eve - Christmas.

 

Here they stopped having time of year themed episodes, so we can only guess.

 

Sleepless in Ponyville - Looks about fall to me, so around a year has probably passed since Luna Eclipsed.

 

I think overall, it's been at least 3 years. That however, makes the security even more stupid.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Arctofire

[Dulset Tarn 441]

Well, opening a portal leading into Tartarus may be simple while opening a portal out of it may be difficult. Not to mention, Tartarus, despite being a prison, doesn't seem terribly well guarded. Cerberus leaving for less than a day was more than enough for Tirek to not only escape, but said escape remaining unnoticed for over two full seasons. Which, given that a year passes between seasons one and four, could translate to roughly six months that nobody noticed Tirek gone. That's some pretty shitty security if you ask me. It's also worth noting that we saw three "cells" in Tartarus, one obviously belonging to Tirek, but two others that were also empty. Who knows how many creatures really have escaped?

All very thoughtful points, but the only really relevant one is the possibility that going in is much easier than coming out. That still makes no sense, because you'd wind up with ponies and things being sent there all the time for no good reason. I mean, you could argue that ponies just don't do that the same way they don't commit murder, but here's the point. Tartarus is a prison, very much like the prisons we have on Earth. Prisons, almost by definition, house those convicted by a court of law or other sovereign power. Only a select few get to decide who goes there.

[StoneCold 144]

Tirek suffers because, while he may become more threatening as he absorbs magic, he also becomes less scary. This is because of the rule "never show the monster".

 

The human imagination will usually create a more terrifying creature than what can be shown, so when Tirek's hood comes off, he stops being scary.

[Prince Firemane 309]

This is incorrect, you have no proof of this. They never specified in Princess Twilight Sparkle that this was the SECOND time they'd been together at the Summer Sun Celebration. In fact, from Twilight's tone, it seemed like they went very frequently for a good few years.

No, actually, it is very evident that only one year has passed between the two Celebrations shown. Listen to the way Celestia speaks of it, she speaks of it as if it is the very first since Luna's return. She also explicitly tells the ponies of Equestria that it no longer represents the defeat of Nightmare Moon, but the return of Princess Luna. The way she says it sounds as if this is the first time in a very long time that Luna's been present. We're all aware of the... ambiguous timeline of the series, but just because episodes taking place in autumn are shown in a funky order, does not mean that they don't take place in the same autumn season.

 

 

Tartarus is a prison, very much like the prisons we have on Earth. Prisons, almost by definition, house those convicted by a court of law or other sovereign power. Only a select few get to decide who goes there.

Without a doubt. I imagine the spell to open the portal to Tartarus is rather simple in and of itself, but requires an enormous amount of power in order to do so, power that under normal circumstances only Celestia, Luna, Cadance and Twilight are able to generate as Alicorns. However, Tirek opening the portal is not a normal circumstance and I'm sure sucking the magic from nearly everypony in Equestria can provide more than enough power to do so.

[Arctofire 227]

No, actually, it is very evident that only one year has passed between the two Celebrations shown. Listen to the way Celestia speaks of it, she speaks of it as if it is the very first since Luna's return. She also explicitly tells the ponies of Equestria that it no longer represents the defeat of Nightmare Moon, but the return of Princess Luna. The way she says it sounds as if this is the first time in a very long time that Luna's been present. We're all aware of the... ambiguous timeline of the series, but just because episodes taking place in autumn are shown in a funky order, does not mean that they don't take place in the same autumn season.

 

Without a doubt. I imagine the spell to open the portal to Tartarus is rather simple in and of itself, but requires an enormous amount of power in order to do so, power that under normal circumstances only Celestia, Luna, Cadance and Twilight are able to generate as Alicorns. However, Tirek opening the portal is not a normal circumstance and I'm sure sucking the magic from nearly everypony in Equestria can provide more than enough power to do so.

 

I think that it's more a case of me not wanting to believe it, because the amount of stuff which has happened since then happening in only a year is just CRAZY. 

 

Also, It could be that she's just telling them now.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Arctofire

[Sidral Mundet 1,666]

For me weak Tirek is much better because of the threat he potentially posses.  He was cunning and weak yet wrathful enough that you still didn't want to mess with him unless you knew what you were getting into.  Once he had the power upgrade his menace was gone as he just sort of became an angry guy with a lot of power.  He still intimidated but that was more so from the power he had rather than the type of person he was.  He basically became more of a stock villain as his power increased. Like when he confronted the Princesses, he just burst in the door, no plan or strategy.