Incompetent rulers = a show

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

True: you CAN write a very competent leader who does everything in their power but still needs help with somethings.

it is what it is. and it's WHY it is BECAUSE of the writers TO CREATE a show.

 

Talking about contradictions? Or are you just saying that the writers don't care?

 

Now, I'm going to ignore you telling me to calm down, because I'm not angry, I enjoy talking about the subject and can't see body language though text.

 

First of all, and before I'm willing to go on... if you agree that the problem is the writing, then why are we having a discussion about a character's competence? What Lilly Peet is doing (and to a certain extent, you too) is the equivalent of condemning someone without ever giving the chance for the defense to be heard. And it's mostly because the defense attorney missed the audience.

[Singe 2,111]

I wouldn't call her incompetent. Before FIM, Equestrian Kingdom is still around and working. Things only escalated once FIM started and it's only been less than 2 years. 

[Goat-kun 2,530]

Sooner or later, these writers shall have to learn their trade or fall into Uncle Grandpa’s Inferno. Then again, being a writer is quite hard since your success hinges on your non-writer education and imagination. The first can hardly be significantly deepened by an average adult with a family and the second is a gift that can be honed, not gained.

 

I think Celestia is cool. She has an appealing, traditional design that was just thrown away cause writing is hard. It irks me that a cool character with a lot of potential to add to the show’s appeal has been put into the trash cause professional writers couldn’t seem to figure out how to write her with unobtrusive grace and regality she deserves. It’s only too bad that Spike is way too prominent while being equally as enigmatic to our MLP team or else he’d be counting banana peels on the bottom of that trash bin along with our princess. Damn shame, isn’t it.

[Silver Stream. 708]

Talking about contradictions? Or are you just saying that the writers don't care?

 

Now, I'm going to ignore you telling me to calm down, because I'm not angry, I enjoy talking about the subject and can't see body language though text.

 

First of all, and before I'm willing to go on... if you agree that the problem is the writing, then why are we having a discussion about a character's competence? What Lilly Peet is doing (and to a certain extent, you too) is the equivalent of condemning someone without ever giving the chance for the defense to be heard. And it's mostly because the defense attorney missed the audience.

 

Not once did I ever directly say to calm down to you. Prior to this reply, I honestly admired your approach to the discussion. You didn't yell nor did you have an angry tone and neither did I. I was speaking from a general standpoint to those who possess the need to get HIGHLY defensive whenever a character's competence or more so...incompetence....is expressed and how it's automatically assumed it's bashing a character. 

 

The whole point of the discussion is to gather opinions on whether the fact "the show must go on" makes the incompetence of the characters mentioned justifiable or not. To see if others agree or disagree that holding grudges against Celestia and the others or deeming them unworthy of whatever position they are in is fair when it isn't entirely their fault in the first place. In fact, the last line bluntly states I hold nothing against any of the characters because I know it's all for the sake of the show and some things are badly written?????

 

I stated competent rulers who need help CAN be written but I never agreed that was the case with Celestia. And I'll state it again, "it is what it is". That does not mean I'm saying the writers simply don't care.....I'm implying what happens in the show happens in the show. Whether you see the mistakes and lack of enforcement as incompetence or not.....or if you see it AT ALL....it happens. If you feel as though the discussion is pointless and you aren't willing to go on because you're trying to state something that I somewhat agree with to a certain extent, then that would be relieving on my end. And I don't mean that in an offensive way. I don't usually discuss further with people if we aren't exactly on the same page, and again NOT being angry nor do I mean any harm. Just being honest (plus I am tired from working all day)

 

 

 

 

Singe basically summed it up. Somewhere in my quoted text on the first post, I think I mentioned the only reason why Celestia has grown incompetent (only if you agree she is) is because Twilight and the Mane 6 exists therefore FiM exist. 

Sooner or later, these writers shall have to learn their trade or fall into Uncle Grandpa’s Inferno. Then again, being a writer is quite hard since your success hinges on your non-writer education and imagination. The first can hardly be significantly deepened by an average adult with a family and the second is a gift that can be honed, not gained.

 

I think Celestia is cool. She has an appealing, traditional design that was just thrown away cause writing is hard. It irks me that a cool character with a lot of potential to add to the show’s appeal has been put into the trash cause professional writers couldn’t seem to figure out how to write her with unobtrusive grace and regality she deserves. It’s only too bad that Spike is way too prominent while being equally as enigmatic to our MLP team or else he’d be counting banana peels on the bottom of that trash bin along with our princess. Damn shame, isn’t it.

 

Yeah she deserves better. Then again, many many many do. For example, I'm aware there are tons of Flash haters for.....multiple reasons, but honestly I really want to see the guy get a chance at....well SOMETHING. Same for Cadence as well as Luna...because she deserves better than being written as a pity party whenever she gets her own episode. 

 

Okay this may be a stupid question but......what is Uncle Grandpa?

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

Not once did I ever directly say to calm down to you. Prior to this reply, I honestly admired your approach to the discussion. You didn't yell nor did you have an angry tone and neither did I. I was speaking from a general standpoint to those who possess the need to get HIGHLY defensive whenever a character's competence or more so...incompetence....is expressed and how it's automatically assumed it's bashing a character. 

 

It was another paragraph and I didn't connect what you said earlier to it. I miss understood. Therefore...

 

 

The whole point of the discussion is to gather opinions on whether the fact "the show must go on" makes the incompetence of the characters mentioned justifiable or not. To see if others agree or disagree that holding grudges against Celestia and the others or deeming them unworthy of whatever position they are in is fair when it isn't entirely their fault in the first place. In fact, the last line bluntly states I hold nothing against any of the characters because I know it's all for the sake of the show and some things are badly written?????

 

Hold on. I'm going to lower my head here and admit that I may have missed your point entirely. Please, let me try again. It actually seems like I agree with you, in a way.

(That's what I get for trying to comment on something while stopping multiple times to to whatever...)

 

 

I stated competent rulers who need help CAN be written but I never agreed that was the case with Celestia. And I'll state it again, "it is what it is". That does not mean I'm saying the writers simply don't care.....I'm implying what happens in the show happens in the show. Whether you see the mistakes and lack of enforcement as incompetence or not.....or if you see it AT ALL....it happens. If you feel as though the discussion is pointless and you aren't willing to go on because you're trying to state something that I somewhat agree with to a certain extent, then that would be relieving on my end. And I don't mean that in an offensive way. I don't usually discuss further with people if we aren't exactly on the same page, and again NOT being angry nor do I mean any harm. Just being honest (plus I am tired from working all day)

 

I don't think that we are on the same page. And that is because you think (unless I'm stupid and I missed the point again, and I don't mean that in the passive-aggressive way... I mean that sometimes I mess up because language becomes a barrier) that Celestia IS incompetent. Yes, we both understand there are degrees of competence, but using this word is just easier than going on specific details all the time. And I say that she looks incompetent, but I don't blame her. I blame the writers and absolve the character. Meaning: if I was to write a fanfiction, specifically trying to make Celestia "in character", she would be portrayed as a very competent princess that usually gets the job done so well that she's almost boring, is kind to the point ponies wonder if she's capable of hurting somepony, wise and experienced as a thousand years old anything should be, and is tired of annoying ponies fussing up around her all the time like she's going to break at a moment's notice. And she also hates gryphons and bronies.

 

There are two ways to look at the show. One of these ways,  the one I use when I want to complain about the writers when I think that they're screwing up, is to look at it in a very clinical and dry way. Looking at it at face value. When I do this, I point to something and go "Oh... Celestia is a moron. Look at what she did", and then I shift to talk about the writer screwing the character, because I actually believe in the second way of looking at the show and it's characters.

 

That is... The writers aren't perfect, they screw up and are lazy, or most probably, don't have the time to "properly" do something, causing their writing of the character seem off, making it do something that seems off, when compared to an "ideal model" of the character.

 

 

Princess Celestia is the kind and wise ruler of Equestria. Governing her subjects from her castle (that's actually a palace, but... whatever...) in Canterlot, she emanates a commanding presence with both a Unicorn's horn and magnificent Pegasus wings. Princess Celestia is profoundly magical, and some say that she is more than one thousand years old. With the help of her sister, Princess Luna, she makes the sun and moon rise and set each day.

The Elements of Harmony, page 25.

 

 

That is Princess Celestia. That meshes very well with the character we see in season one. The problem is not only that this is old, but also that Celestia has had zero character development ever since AND the show has changed. Celestia, I believe, is the only major character that's stayed completely static. Because of this, I feel that your sort of analysis about the character is unfair and does border on bashing it. Like I said, Celestia is blank. The show is missing information about her and, unless next season we get episodes, or along the wait we start getting comics, stating that Celestia is failing at her job, whatever it is, it's more reasonable to maintain the position that Celestia must be doing something right and we just don't get to see it. This is because it makes sense with previous canon, the writers are anything but perfect and Celestia seems to get in the way of their plots. Anything but this, I think, is going into headcanon territory.

 

I'll reuse my analogy: saying that Celestia is incompetent (or "not competent enough"), right now, is like condemning a defendant without ever listening to the defense. And in this case, because the defense attorney never showed up to the hearing. Celestia is left alone to fend for herself and all she's allowed to show are the bad examples of herself, which happen to be the same ones the prossecutor is using.

 

Finally, I understand that you don't hate the character (I've been accused of it because I use examples of Celestia messing up all the time), and I don't either. Yet, you also seem to think that it's excusable to present Celestia as incompetent (and so turning her into incompetent in the canon). I don't. In my opinion, it's inexcusable to constantly force feed the character with the Idiot Ball or Worf it beyond recognition so that the story can happen. I can come up with better versions of every single instance where Celestia was shoved aside, made incompetent, or just generally stupid, and I know that the writers can do it too: "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep" is an excellent example of how to deal with a powerful character that needs help to deal with a problem, while also helping others deal with the same. Also known as "being part of a team effort".

 

Of course it doesn't help that the cartoon has to be as obnoxious as possible about everything surrounding Celestia. Now... I'm more than willing to accept, in the future, that the Celestia that I've come to like is actually an idiot that shouldn't be ruling a nation, or that she is actually a villain, fooling ponies and enjoying every second of seeing them suffer because of her "incompetence" (in fact I fully expect to see that Celestia was the cause of Luna's distress in the past...). But, I'm not ready yet to think that her "incompetence" is intentional, and thus part of her character.

 

I think I covered everything.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Metemponychosis

[Silver Stream. 708]

Much better. And I can respect that you choose not deem Celestia as incompetent while I do. After all it is one's opinion which is why I try to keep an open mind. Though understand I never condemned her without listening to a defense. By saying that, it is almost as if you're condemning me without listening to my defense xDD

 

I didn't deem her incompetent off the bat after many times of seeing her within the show nor did I say she was incompetent just because Lily Peet rudely expressed how incompetent she was. I take time before I ever make judgement on a character; trying to look at situations from the character's viewpoint and understand the "limitations" the show itself gives them. And as I said, I was in another discussion meaning there were plenty of others defending Celestia as to why she shouldn't be condemned as incompetent. Understand, the fact that I see her as incompetent doesn't mean I'm considering it canon....ruling out all other reasons and defense. IF you look closely, some statements are very much open ended with me keeping in mind that she isn't a plum dumb idiot with was the tone Lily Peet was using. Even in my last post, I make sure to add "if you agree she is incompetent or not". Within my first post, I'm merely expressing my opinion on her being incompetent through my perspective but I don't mean to rule out the perspective of others such as yourself who have a slightly different outlook. 

 

 

And towards your example of "Do Princess Dream of Magic Sheep".......exactly. Which is why I always felt Luna is somewhat more competent than Celestia because of what I've witnessed (or perhaps simply NOTICED) from her....I've yet to notice from Celestia. That point you made about it's possible for competent rulers to be writtern but simply need help sometimes?....I'll agree it's a case with Luna and Cadence but I fail to realize it's the case with Celestia. Perhaps it is the case? But I can't see it as of right now. I'm willing to listen if you have witnessed it. Oh and even though I see Celestia and others as incompetent...I don't think they are idiots or anything. Never that xD

Edited January 9, 2016 by Silver Stream.

[KatonRyu 1,033]

In 'Journal of the Two Sisters' Celestia says she and Luna were chosen to guide Equestria. I've always seen that as being different than outright ruling it. She fills a diplomatic role and that of a figurehead, but I really don't know how much say she has in day to day life in Equestria. (For instance in Rarity Takes Manehattan nopony gave a flying feather about Twilight being a princess judging by the way they treated her; who's to say Celestia wouldn't get the same kind of reception?)

 

Aside from that, in Equestria there's a pesky little thing called destiny. Cutie Marks and ascending to royalty and all that good stuff is heavily bound to the concept of destiny, and given the importance Cutie Marks carry within the story I assume that part of the reason Celestia strongly believes in freedom is so that everypony is free to find their own Cutie Marks, and their destiny. Now, the Elements of Harmony are probably tied even more strongly to destiny than most other things. It might well be that ancient prophecies (or something similar) more or less force Celestia to step back and let the Mane Six fix everything, because destiny says she has to.

 

I'll admit it's not a watertight explanation, but the fact is and will always remain that this is a kids' show that was never meant to be analyzed this closely. Celestia is not the main character of the show, nor are Luna or Cadance, and therefore they will not solve the problems that arise within it.

Edited January 9, 2016 by KatonRyu

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

 

 

By saying that, it is almost as if you're condemning me without listening to my defense xDD

Some Brazilian author I can't remember right now once said that miscommunication is the root of most of human problems. XD 

 

 

 

Understand, the fact that I see her as incompetent doesn't mean I'm considering it canon

This actually lets me out of this talk very satisfied. But...

 

 

 

And towards your example of "Do Princess Dream of Magic Sheep".......exactly. Which is why I always felt Luna is somewhat more competent than Celestia because of what I've witnessed (or perhaps simply NOTICED) from her....I've yet to notice from Celestia. That point you made about it's possible for competent rulers to be writtern but simply need help sometimes?....I'll agree it's a case with Luna and Cadence but I fail to realize it's the case with Celestia. Perhaps it is the case? But I can't see it as of right now. I'm willing to listen if you have witnessed it. 

 No. this is not the case with Celestia and this is what I mean when I say that Celestia is left without a defense. It's not because fans aren't willing to give it to her. It's because the writers are failing to give it to the audience. Of course anyone that watches the cartoon won't see it: it isn't there. This, coupled with the fact that I think (and I can be convinced otherwise) that every evidence of Celestia's incompetence is actually the writers not caring while writing, is what leads me to think that the audience is still supposed to think of Celestia as the nice queen-princess of Equestria.

 

Or if there is some evidence of Celestia doing things right, it's way back in season one and doesn't seem relevant anymore because the show has changed so much. My favorite examples of that are "Dragonshy" and "Fall Weather Friends".

 

Luna and Cadance both have episodes where they are featured as support cast where they are important to the resolution of the conflict. The episodes where Luna is stalking ponies and invading their privacy helping the CMC in their nightmares are good examples of this. So it IS expected that someone would think of them as more competent. It doesn't help that Cadance looks like she was designed to be a perfect little thing and put right in the place where Celestia should be, and hijacks the mentor role, the wise role, the caring older person role. But that is another talk and every time I talk about Cadance I feel like It'll create a vortex of blandness and summon her to the real world where she'll start a Conversion Bureau nightmare using Hasbro's assets.

[Silver Stream. 708]

Some Brazilian author I can't remember right now once said that miscommunication is the root of most of human problems. XD 

 

 

 

This actually lets me out of this talk very satisfied. But...

 

 

 

 No. this is not the case with Celestia and this is what I mean when I say that Celestia is left without a defense. It's not because fans aren't willing to give it to her. It's because the writers are failing to give it to the audience. Of course anyone that watches the cartoon won't see it: it isn't there. This, coupled with the fact that I think (and I can be convinced otherwise) that every evidence of Celestia's incompetence is actually the writers not caring while writing, is what leads me to think that the audience is still supposed to think of Celestia as the nice queen-princess of Equestria.

 

Or if there is some evidence of Celestia doing things right, it's way back in season one and doesn't seem relevant anymore because the show has changed so much. My favorite examples of that are "Dragonshy" and "Fall Weather Friends".

 

Luna and Cadance both have episodes where they are featured as support cast where they are important to the resolution of the conflict. The episodes where Luna is stalking ponies and invading their privacy helping the CMC in their nightmares are good examples of this. So it IS expected that someone would think of them as more competent. It doesn't help that Cadance looks like she was designed to be a perfect little thing and put right in the place where Celestia should be, and hijacks the mentor role, the wise role, the caring older person role. But that is another talk and every time I talk about Cadance I feel like It'll create a vortex of blandness and summon her to the real world where she'll start a Conversion Bureau nightmare using Hasbro's assets.

 

 

 

My personal opinion of Cadence is simple: a static character. A Disney princess with a love story many want to have and a "personality and title" people will forever envy. Not too long ago I started a discussion on it...how I like Cadence but she deserves  the same thing I desire for Flash Sentry.

 

Someone (can't recall who) pointed out not every character has to struggle with something or be imperfect. Which is a fair point. But there are ways to created a grounded character without giving them that aura of "perfection". With Cadence I see big sister seemingly compassionate and whatnot. But never have I seen her show the same compassion for those outside her inner circle. It may happen "off screen" but that doesn't matter. To overlook her own loyal subjects who perhaps would have done a better job to welcome Harshwhinny (is that how you spell it?) wasn't fair imo. But again, this supports my opinion on bad decisions and incompetent rulers driving a show forward which led to there being an episode like that in the first place because it HAD to involve our main characters even if it doesn't make sense to those who look at it from a logical standpoint. 

 

Celestia....I like the way she is. Because I pay close attention to the LITTLE we are given. For example, one cannot express the admiration I have for that small scene with her battle against Nightmare Moon. How she struggled battling with her own sister. And in the mist of that struggle, she was also making a very difficult decision to use the the elements of harmony against her and banish her. THAT shows a competent ruler. Who tries out all other options in hopes to avoid the inevitable outcome of turning to something more powerful for help. And to me, she lost that the moment Twilight and friends showed up. Along with that scene a few others many wouldn't even care to take a second look at, Celestia, in a way, is more of a character than Cadence. (DANG IT I SHOULD ADD THIS IN UNPOPULAR OPINIONS). 

 

 

Now the guards.....is another story. I sometimes pity the role they are meant to play. They are an army of incompetent characters....and I'm not calling them idiots. I only mean they lack ensuring effective security and fail at their job all the time. 

 

I'll admit it's not a watertight explanation, but the fact is and will always remain that this is a kids' show that was never meant to be analyzed this closely. Celestia is not the main character of the show, nor are Luna or Cadance, and therefore they will not solve the problems that arise within it.

I've already expressed how it's not the fault of the characters why they fail to keep their kingdom safe which leads to the Mane 6 to save the day. I also mentioned it's an unintentional method that allows the show to exist in general. Not just with FiM.....but with many many many other shows/movies/books/etc. 

 

But you misunderstand.....I don't desire for these ponies of power to be the ones to SOLVE the problems. I desire a more competent approach to the plotline on their part which is rare to see because Celestia and a few others are rarely given the opportunity.   EDIT: No....they are given opportunity. It's just not being taken advantage of

 

 

 

 

 

 

Once awesome example of a competent character with power or official authority is Officer Gordan from the Batman franchise. Where he is far from incompetent but still requires the help of Batman...a win/win situation in my opinion. But as you said, it is a kid's show....perhaps it's me having high hopes to see more from Celestia and the others. Where I have high expectations. But honestly, it's me only expressing how they deserve better. Is it unfair to have such expectations? Mm....meh probably. I'll admit that. But still it's something I felt the need to express

Edited January 9, 2016 by Silver Stream.

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

 

 

In 'Journal of the Two Sisters' Celestia says she and Luna were chosen to guide Equestria. I've always seen that as being different than outright ruling it. She fills a diplomatic role and that of a figurehead, but I really don't know how much say she has in day to day life in Equestria. (For instance in Rarity Takes Manehattan nopony gave a flying feather about Twilight being a princess judging by the way they treated her; who's to say Celestia wouldn't get the same kind of reception?)

The first thing that was said about the Two Sisters is that they ruled Equestria. 

 

I think that this thing about Rarity Takes Manehattan is an example of the writers not being able to deal with Twilight being a princess and at the same time keeping the status quo the same. I thought that was weird and just confusing. Maybe it's because there was a line and they didn't want to make it look like Twilight has privileges , but then again there is a line because the production put it there. Maybe the idea is just that Twilight doesn't get benefits out of being a princess.

 

Part of the problem is that the cartoon, at least in my opinion, does a terrible job of showing the audience what a princess is. Most of the times they're more like celebrities of minor importance to the ponies, and at the same time Cadance is the ruler of the Crystal Empire and this is a big deal, but then Twilight is a trusted judge and Luna is a dreamcatcher. Celestia is just... There. doing some unfathomable princess thing that is never important but let her sit in her throne for 1000 years, even though the other one had just gone mad and there was no indication that Celestia wouldn't do the same...

 

It seems princesses are supposed to be

- Rulers

- Guardians

- Teachers

- Wise counselors

- Undefined sophisticated royalty that don't really like being royalty, but is stuck with it

It's confusing. All of these fit in specific cases, but none of these seem to really stick to them and I honestly don't have a clue about what ponies think of the princesses, what they think of themselves and I think that neither do the writers.

[KatonRyu 1,033]

The first thing that was said about the Two Sisters is that they ruled Equestria. 

 

I think that this thing about Rarity Takes Manehattan is an example of the writers not being able to deal with Twilight being a princess and at the same time keeping the status quo the same. I thought that was weird and just confusing. Maybe it's because there was a line and they didn't want to make it look like Twilight has privileges , but then again there is a line because the production put it there. Maybe the idea is just that Twilight doesn't get benefits out of being a princess.

 

Part of the problem is that the cartoon, at least in my opinion, does a terrible job of showing the audience what a princess is. Most of the times they're more like celebrities of minor importance to the ponies, and at the same time Cadance is the ruler of the Crystal Empire and this is a big deal, but then Twilight is a trusted judge and Luna is a dreamcatcher. Celestia is just... There. doing some unfathomable princess thing that is never important but let her sit in her throne for 1000 years, even though the other one had just gone mad and there was no indication that Celestia wouldn't do the same...

 

It seems princesses are supposed to be

- Rulers

- Guardians

- Teachers

- Wise counselors

- Undefined sophisticated royalty that don't really like being royalty, but is stuck with it

It's confusing. All of these fit in specific cases, but none of these seem to really stick to them and I honestly don't have a clue about what ponies think of the princesses, what they think of themselves and I think that neither do the writers.

 

 

Quoting from the Journal of Two Sisters here: "Actually, Luna and I clarified that our role in Equestria wouldn't be as rulers and we will not think of the ponies in Equestria as our subjects. That would be very awkward. We will be Equestria's guardians. That sounds much friendlier. We will serve and protect, watching over Equestria's lands and skies, keeping them peaceful and safe."

 

When it comes to the Rarity Takes Manehattan bit I think you've hit the nail on the head: the writers did that. In-universe, however, that makes little sense. Royalty in Equestria might be very different from how we know it IRL. Ponyville is essentially a hick town in Equestria, and it's located relatively close to Canterlot so they might have more reverence for the princesses than the inhabitants of Manehattan do. I've never seen Celestia or Luna in a big city so I don't know how ponies would react to them there.

 

Honestly, like you said, the show is too inconsistent for me to fabricate a good theory, which is why I chalked everything up to destiny to begin with. I guess this is just another mystery I'll never get a satisfactory answer for, just like the musical transformation thing in RR.

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

@@Silver Stream., thank you for bringing up Nightmare Moon. This is a giant bone I have to pick with the cartoon and one of the things that often send me in a raging rant. Specially in the part involving Celestia. What I'm going to say doesn't mean that I think you're wrong. Mostly because I want to do the same, but I feel like I'm grasping at straws every time I do it.

 

Nightmare Moon is my favorite villain in the cartoon, and I mentioned already how important I think is the relationship between a villain and it's "hero". Celestia was Nightmare Moon's hero. Looking at the first episode, specially the intro, Nightmare Moon looked like she was very dangerous, even if the cartoon did such a childish job of showing it. It was acceptable because at the time the age rating for it was different. But at the same time, both Celestia and her sister (even before we knew them) were presented in a way that made it look like it would be a very big deal if one of them went nuts. Because at the time I didn't know that there are other countries in the world, I didn't know that unicorns could move the sun and the moon too; and most importantly: I didn't know that other ponies could become alicorns (or princesses, pegacorns... there was no official use of the word at the time) and the whole conflict was left vague. This is how you do epic in a children's cartoon. You throw some ideas, give the audience a few colors and let them imagine.

 

And people did imagine. From cute little woona blowing a raspberry at a very annoyed Celestia, to the Sisters ripping the terrain apart with their magic. From very closed and personal Shakespearean dramas, to epic wars of attrition between two forces that have the power to change the world as it exists. Or even high-stakes disputes where the sisters, even as they are the driving force behind it, are left as a background as stories explored the impact of their decisions on the "normal" ponies.

 

But then came Meghan McCarthy with a two-minutes flashback that showed exactly what happened and sucked all pretension of actual importance out of this other than checking an item off a grocery list of things that happened. I understand what you're saying. I really do. But to me, all that scene does is show Luna having a temper tantrum, like one of those insufferable brats in "nanny shows", Celestia not saying a word, Luna one-shotting her off the ceiling (of course...) and them Celestia bringing out the most powerful weapon in existence, not saying a word and them looking sad because she sent her sister to the moon and in the sappiest way possible... She didn't sob or anything. She just looks sad. It was so fast I wonder if the ponies would even have known something had happened and at the time it made me think that what really happened is that Celestia was punishing Luna for attacking her. That whole scene is so unbelievably devoid of any sort of high stakes. Of any real emotional struggle. And here is the kick in the guts: it's because the cartoon isn't allowed to show this sort of thing as it should. So it's better to not show at all and let the audience imagine. And in my opinion, this is why most "epic" season openers and finales fail in this cartoon. It wants me to take it seriously, but all I'm wondering is why isn't Tirek messing with the gryphons. I wanna know what the gryphons would do to him.

 

And if that wasn't enough, ponies are just great with Nightmare Moon in The Cutie Re-Mark. Every scene in that episode sounded like a nail being driven into a coffin to me.

 

More power to you if you can enjoy that. But to me... Celestia lost all she had that made her past great and got nothing in the present. Remember all the struggle the Mane Six had to go through to use the Elements against Nightmare and Discord? The personal growth they went through, most of them, Twilight? None of that is present with Celestia in those flashbacks. She's just a plot device to make things happen. I'm going to sound like a douche saying this, but you don't need to look at the infinitesimal details to see why Luna and Cadance can be good characters. Celestia is the only princess that needs this to even look like she's a character. I am convinced that there is someone in the production staff that just hates Celestia.

 

You say that Celestia lost the moment the Mane Six appeared, but it didn't need to be like this. Why, instead of downright losing to Queen Chrysalis, didn't Celestia continuously fight her? Why, instead of vanishing when Nightmare Moon appeared didn't Celestia do something about it (even though, before the Cutie Re-Mark it could be said that she did... She placed her pieces on the board...)? Why, instead of making her give all their magic to Twilight and basically tell her to shove her head in the ground, didn't Celestia leading the charge? Even if they are going to lose in the end because they need the new toy to win, it would've been better than what we got and wouldn't turn Celestia into a brain dead idiot, and neither Luna and Cadance who went along. It doesn't even have to be shown: a single line of dialogue can fix this. Or like in Return of Harmony: Twilight is losing, so Celestia acts by sending back her friendship reports. So elegant. So simple.

 

Now, I know that this sounds contradictory with what I was saying earlier, but it's not: before those scenes were utterly destroyed in the flashbacks, I saw the results of what Celestia (and her sister) had done. And I sure as hell don't see evidence of Celestia doing a good job doing whatever she's supposed to be doing now. Also, keep in mind that I blame the writers and not the characters... It keeps a window open for all this to be fixed.

 

And the guards... Really. My opinion on them is the same as my opinion on Celestia. They actually remind me a bit of the Imperial Guard in Warhammer 40K before Ciaphas Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts... Very loosely. The poor Royal Guards are in a bad spot. And really, I agree... I want to know more about Cadance and Flash Sentry too. In fact, I welcome most things, but I also think that Celestia needs it a lot more than they do.

 

Heh... My opinion on Cadance actually flies from "she's cute and I want to know more" to "I want her to die in a fire that somehow started because of this stupid crystal fetish in the show". But don't take that seriously. I think that Cadance has potential for a very nice character, even if I think she's stolen Celestia's place with Twilight. Man, I must be boring you to death by now.

@@KatonRyu,

I know. I own that thing.

 

From the first seconds of the show:

 

 

Once upon a time, in the magical land of Equestria, there were two regal sisters who ruled together and created harmony for all the land.

I think that Celestia is being humble, in the diary and that AKR is speaking nonsense. And now, I'm going to piss off a lot of people: this book was written in the US, where buzzwords seem to have more impact than actual arguments and government paranoia reigns supreme. It blows my mind that they felt the need to bring down Celestia from "ruler" to "guardian" because it sounds friendlier. Specially because...

 

 

We will serve and protect, watching over Equestria's lands and skies, keeping them peaceful and safe.

 

I feel like it's missing "exactly like a ruler is supposed to do."

 

I feel like someone at a meeting went "Hey... We have a nice and interesting concept here, with a kind ruler that could totally abuse her power but doesn't. How can we ruin it?" I'm not even touching the whole "queen/princess" thing, and I'll stop here because if I don't i'm going to turn into Solaire of Astora.

 

 

 

When it comes to the Rarity Takes Manehattan bit I think you've hit the nail on the head: the writers did that. In-universe, however, that makes little sense. Royalty in Equestria might be very different from how we know it IRL. Ponyville is essentially a hick town in Equestria, and it's located relatively close to Canterlot so they might have more reverence for the princesses than the inhabitants of Manehattan do. I've never seen Celestia or Luna in a big city so I don't know how ponies would react to them there.

See? This is another thing that pisses me off in this cartoon. The writers don't care and the audience ends up doing their job.

 

Keeping in mind that the writers don't seem to do this intentionally, I think that royalty in Equestria is already very different from what it is IRL. Starting with the fact that they are chosen more because of worth than birthright or election. This concept should be explored, but I guess it's too political, and once again, this is part of the whole problem to me.

 

 

 

Honestly, like you said, the show is too inconsistent for me to fabricate a good theory, which is why I chalked everything up to destiny to begin with. I guess this is just another mystery I'll never get a satisfactory answer for, just like the musical transformation thing in RR.

I feel you. 

[Goat-kun 2,530]

Yeah she deserves better. Then again, many many many do. For example, I'm aware there are tons of Flash haters for.....multiple reasons, but honestly I really want to see the guy get a chance at....well SOMETHING. Same for Cadence as well as Luna...because she deserves better than being written as a pity party whenever she gets her own episode. 

 

Okay this may be a stupid question but......what is Uncle Grandpa?

Well this is a little awkward. I’m one of those Flash haters, or at least I was until EQG 3. Now I don’t really care anymore since H-Bro stopped aggressively pushing him on Twilight.

 

Think of it this way: Would you rather play with Celestia who is a great and pretty pony monarch with long, brushable mane who can (allegedly) board wipe mooks with blazing power of the scorching sun, or would you rather play with Flash Sentry that does everything that RD can but worse. I’m of an opinion that we don’t need another cool, awesome, and radical pegasus since we already have a whole academy teeming with them. It’s a simple look at cost and effect. Flash is one of those bland pretty boys that are grown in tubes and are used as stock high school crushes for girl protagonists. You could push him in the background and give him one or two sentences, but that’s that. For anything else, you’d first need to rebuild his character and solidify royal guard’s funny yet important role at protecting the realm from vastly superior foes (Game over, pony! Game over!).

 

Uncle Grandpa is but one of Cartoon Network’s abominations that was also featured in a non-canon joke episode of Steven Universe. It is one of those mindless, random crap cartoons written by chimps on bath salts. Though if truth be told, Uncle Grandpa is among the more benign examples of cartoon crap. His predecessor, Secret Mountain Fort Awesome, was even worse.

[Number62 1,258]

Unfortunately, I'm too lazy to read most of the posts, but hopefully this one will be relevant.

 

I really despise wasted potential, but I think all works of fiction have some amount of that because possibilities are unlimited, one idea leads to another, etc. So the question instead is "how much?" In the case of this show, too much, and Princess Celestia herself is the worst offender. Others have mentioned Flash Sentry, Cadance, and Shining Armor as wasted characters, and I agree, too. Luna is also wasted, but much less so compared to her sister. The sisters' history is definitely ripe for exploration.

 

I feel that the premise and concept of the show is quite interesting because it doesn't simply have ponies living and getting around fine. It has magic, mythical creatures, and of course a completely different world than ours, so getting a feel of the world they live in could really grab the viewers. The fan works seem to be something of a result of that, but it's more like what the show could be instead of what is, with the alternative options often seeming (key word since I don't read fanfiction) more interesting.

 

People will say that being aimed toward a very young audience has to be considered, but I don't think it's really THAT much of a hindrance if the creative team knows what they want and how to achieve it.

 

The other major issue is the story is full of holes due to design, so we are also debating something that was never clearly intended to be thought of this deep.

 

I won't be surprised if this is the case, but what does that say about the people who are working on the show? Fiction doesn't need to make perfect sense, but it needs to make some degree of sense, otherwise there's no reason to care about what's being shown. In the case of the Celestia and Luna, they never really help against major threats, and things are always left to the Mane 6. Consequently, the stories lose more and more credibility when this gets repeated, especially considering the position of the royals.

[Silver Stream. 708]

 

 

. I understand what you're saying. I really do. But to me, all that scene does is show Luna having a temper tantrum, like one of those insufferable brats in "nanny shows", Celestia not saying a word, Luna one-shotting her off the ceiling (of course...) and them Celestia bringing out the most powerful weapon in existence, not saying a word and them looking sad because she sent her sister to the moon and in the sappiest way possible... She didn't sob or anything. She just looks sad.

 

 

I think the reason why I don't see Luna as having a "temper tantrum" is because I'm aware how miserable one can be when living under the shadow of another or feeling unappreciated. Had it been LUNA attacking.....then yes a temper tantrum would be a more appropriate term. But this was Nightmare Moon. She wasn't throwing a hissyfit......she was trying to defeat Celestia and take over the kingdom. Even in the episode "The Cutie Re-Mark" we see the aftermath of her "temper tantrum" and that aftermath is her ruling Equestria for years like a motherfucking boss And Celestia did shed a tear at one point. The scene was short, but it said enough to me. A battle of two sisters....when Celestia saw Nightmare Moon was far too gone to reason with, she brought out the elements. You say most people used their imagination as to how the battle went on....I believe even with the scene....crappy or not....it shouldn't stop from imagining further. We only saw a small part of it and it seemed to be only the climax to the whole thing. 

 

In one of the quotes I have provided in my first post, I had already briefly covered something about how Celestia "managed" before the Mane 6. People would use this as a strong back up as to why Celestia isn't a bad ruler as others may think....though I never understood why. Calling someone incompetent (imo) doesn't mean you're deeming them unworthy of whatever. Anyway, I mentioned this history exist because for the sake of the show or plot. Who doesn't appreciate a good villain returning for some revenge? Celestia using the elements.....AND Starswirl the Bearded.....is a lazy way to basically "explain" why and when on certain things. 

 

I am going to be honest.....I skimmed the rest. Because the more I read, the more I was seeing support to their Incompetence since. in my opinion, most of what you described is pretty much it's definition to a certain extent. 

 

 

 

Get this: Writers are far from perfect. Some things are badly written. Some CHARACTERS are badly executed........but notice I say only "some'. Honestly? I believe it's simply imbalance within the show. Which isn't surprising to me. I'll love the show regardless.....but will continue to be unsatisfied with certain things and Celestia as well as others....are part of it. 

 

 

Sorry if this post sucks compared to previous responses. Had a looooong day and sort of too tired to carry on for the moment. BUT YOU GUYS FEEL FREE TO CONTINUE! 

[Metemponychosis 1,262]

@@Silver Stream.,I feel the meaning of what I was saying was lost in my sarcastic tone. When I said that Luna threw a temper tantrum, I was referring to what the epic event turned out to be: a literal two-minute scene of zero dialogue (the instrument to let the audience know what a character is feeling and thinking). I wasn't referencing to the validity of Luna's pain or even to any one's ability to connect with her suffering. Really... Ask me about feeling underappreciated. Heck... Ask most people beyond the second decade of life about that. And none of us even have the ability to enter others' dreams... Or raise the moon... Or live in a palace.

 

But I'm satisfied understanding where you're coming from.

[Number62 1,258]

Get this: Writers are far from perfect. Some things are badly written. Some CHARACTERS are badly executed........but notice I say only "some'. Honestly? I believe it's simply imbalance within the show. Which isn't surprising to me. I'll love the show regardless.....but will continue to be unsatisfied with certain things and Celestia as well as others....are part of it.

 

I know that writers and fiction can't be perfect, but the more ambitious episodes (especially the 2-parters) generally fall flat. As in, they put more effort into a making a story that ends up being lousy. Compounding this problem is that they keep making the same mistakes, and it's been at least 5 seasons with over 110 episodes, which makes the mistakes much less excusable in the later episodes.

[sweetolebob18 728]

In sitcoms it is a convention of the genre that the person nominally in charge is a slack twisted idiot.  There are numerous exceptions to that rule (Lou Grant on the old Mary Tyler Moore show, for instance) but over all that's the way to bet.  Celestia isn't the worst.

[Limeblossom 482]

She's more of a passive leader who only takes action when the mane 6 and others can't solve it anymore, like in Lesson Zero.