How can Sega FIX Sonic?

[K.Rool Addict 718]

It should be no surprise for the the residing gamers of this forum that Sonic has had quite a tumultuous "run" in the past few console generations. Sonic Team releases a new Sonic game and it almost seems like a coin flip whether that game will be decent or a total failure.... what I mean to say is, consistent quality is one of the largest areas where Sonic games have struggled. Sonic 1-3 have been heralded as some of the best 2D platformers of all time, propelling the Sonic franchise up to its highest critical acclaim in history. These classic Sonic games were able to rival all of Nintendo's offerings fairly competitively back in the Genesis vs SNES days (and the SNES is generally regarded as one of Nintendo's best consoles of all time).

We look at Sonic now, and it's hard to draw any sort of comparison to his incredible performance in the "good old days". Hell, many new gamers don't even know who Sonic IS anymore, but Mario still remains a household name the world over. My question for you: What can be done to "fix" Sonic? Is there any way Sonic games can return to the glory of the Genesis-to-Dreamcast era? I honestly would love to know your own perspective and solutions relating to this issue, and that goes for anyone even remotely familiar with Sonic games.

 

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,153]

For me; there are two words that Sega need to embrace, and there are promises this year with Mania and Forces they are doing just that: Quality and Consistency.

Quality in that they shouldn't rush games out to meet a holiday deadline and allow development teams to do their jobs, and consistency in keep with a formula that works while improving on it. Quality shouldn't be too hard to point out with rushed games like Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom out there, but they also need to stop reinventing the wheel when they don't need to. Remember Sonic Colors and Generations? Those were some of the most well-received modern Sonic games, and what happened next? Totally different formulas with Lost World and Boom.

At least that's out I look at it: Quality first and long-term consistency with improvements where needed.

[K.Rool Addict 718]

31 minutes ago, PathfinderCS said:

Remember Sonic Colors and Generations? Those were some of the most well-received modern Sonic games, and what happened next? 

Do you consider Colors and Generations to be the future of Sonic, or essentially what the developers should build off of? Sonic Forces seems to be a continuation of the Generations formula, with the same basic gameplay styles present. Of course, we have yet to see what the 3rd playable character's gameplay will be like, but it's pretty safe to say this 3rd character will not vastly change the overall product considering that it's likely to be 33% of the game (if not less).

I personally found both Colors and Generations to be a bit too shallow for my liking. Strangely, Unleashed remains my favorite "modern" take on Sonic to this day (by modern I mean taking place after the Dreamcast era). Unleashed had real depth to it, lots of collectables, and just generally felt like a "big world" as opposed to Colors and Generations "straight and simple" approach. That is of course not to say these simpler formulae do not have a place in the Sonic franchise; simple, accessible fun is the reason why games like New Super Mario Bros. sell so well. I certainly don't consider Unleashed to be perfect in any way shape or form. The Werehog stages were often quite a drag, the boost gameplay was rather fresh at the time, but going back to it you realize just how little skill it actually requires, etc. S ranking stages in the day sections is like second nature and doesn't really provide any satisfying level of challenge (and this can be said tenfold for Generations' S rank). 

The boost style gameplay almost feels like a little mobile game, like Sonic Dash or something similar. Just side step to avoid obstacles while running "on rails".... I can't accept that this is the future of Sonic >.<;  (And don't even get me started on those 2D sections shoehorned in)

I feel as though even if the boost formula is MASTERED it will never provide an experience above "good"; that's a far cry from the lofty heights of the Super Mario series >.> Lost World and Boom were experiments... failed experiments lol. It would be nice if Sonic Team experimented in a more intelligent manner; maybe bringing back fan favorite gameplay mechanics of old, but....  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[CheeryFox 23,811]

Fix Sonic? Hmm...DC 2! That's how!  Hey...what about the Sonic Mania direction?

[K.Rool Addict 718]

35 minutes ago, Stormfury said:

Fix Sonic? Hmm...DC 2! That's how!  Hey...what about the Sonic Mania direction?

I really wish a Dreamcast 2 would happen lol. Nintendo, Microsoft ,and Sony are just plain stagnant, bring in a fourth pillar, I say! Considering Sega's financial state... I don't think it's very feasible, unfortunately Dx

Sonic Mania is definitely a step in the right direction. After floundering with subpar 2D attempts like Sonic Rush, Sonic 4, and even the classic Sonic sections of Generations, Mania is a real breath of fresh air. Of course I have yet to play it, but it looks extremely promising. That being said, I don't think retro revivals should be the "future" of Sonic, at least not exclusively.  

[Discordian 6,013]

The main thing they need to do is go back to taking their stories seriously and building levels around being contextually relevant. Making levels that fit a theme but no story just makes them boring as shit and it's part of my problem with a lot of games like the originals. It's why Adventure was amazing. Heroes kinda went back to using a theme but they still had a story to follow so it kinda worked but that was the start of their descent into the shitty theming they do now.

 

Unleashed was great for that reason but the theming problem was still there somewhat and they seemed to go belly up with Lost World but I still need to play that one so I can't make judgments.

 

Sonic Boom seems like more of what I like in the series but the fact that it was handed off to an incompetent developer killed it. The couple hours I played were a bug-riddled mess. I thought people were exaggerating on how closely it resembled Sonic 06. But as with Sonic 06 I'm hoping that the rest of the game can make up for the shitty quality control and glitchiness. I actually think Sonic 06 is one of the best games in the series wrapped in an incomplete game.

 

What I think they need to stop is trying to get back to Sonic's roots. It didn't work in Sonic 4 and Sonic Mania is everything I don't want the series to go back to.

 

Forces seems like it's gonna continue down the Generations route which can mean really good things and really bad things at the same time. Similar to Sonic Heroes they had the theming over context problem, however this time it worked because it was a nice throwback and change from levels we already knew. I wouldn't mind them making another game just to explore reworked versions of old levels like that.

 

Hopefully Forces brings back the contextual levels. And has a better final boss than the shitty Time Eater.

[cmarston1 5,954]

Going back to the whole boost gameplay that Colors and Generations have used, and fine tuning it, would be the direction that I would want to see the series go in.

[K.Rool Addict 718]

4 hours ago, Discordian said:

The main thing they need to do is go back to taking their stories seriously and building levels around being contextually relevant. Making levels that fit a theme but no story just makes them boring as shit and it's part of my problem with a lot of games like the originals. It's why Adventure was amazing. Heroes kinda went back to using a theme but they still had a story to follow so it kinda worked but that was the start of their descent into the shitty theming they do now.

As much as I generally don't care about story elements in games, I think I actually have to agree. The story in games like SA2 made the stages "feel" more fun somehow. I have such mixed opinions about the Adventure games, it is hard to articulate all of them in a concise manner. The progression system of these games was very rewarding imo. That was probably my favorite part of the Adventure era. Having to buckle down to find all the emblems and so on. When I go back to these games just to play the stages they don't really do much for me out of context of the story, or without me prioritizing the emblem reward system. So I agree, the story SHOULD get more serious, and if Forces is any indication, that seems to be the direction they are heading. I hear so many people bitching about "oh why is Sega making the game edgy" and I roll my eyes in comtempt xD. This isn't edgy; Shadow the Hedgehog was about the only game Sonic Team has made which can meet that qualification. 

Anyway, on the topic of the Adventure titles, I cannot help but mention the MAIN reason I loved them so much... the Chao garden xD. In SA1 it was pretty cool, but never really evolved beyond being a nice little diversion. In SA2, however.... man, I must have spent over 300 hours (minimum) in SA2's Chao Garden. I'm not the type of person to just play silly little pet raising simulators either. The incredible depth this "mini-game" offered honestly took priority over the main game for me; and this is precisely why I enjoyed SA2 so damn much (I can easily call it my #1 favorite 3D Sonic game). I think ProJared sums up the way I feel pretty damn well: https://youtu.be/JgG--74XExY?t=22m45s <-- I agree with everything he says from 22:45-24:00)

Now, do I want Sega to just release a spin off Chao Garden series? Well, at this point, I'm willing to take anything lol -.- BUT, I would PREFER if they did not go that direction. What made the Chao Garden so fun was how the unlockables and stat boosts/ animals factored into the actual main game. I loved working super hard pulling my hair out trying to get as many emblems as possible because I knew it would unlock some new crazy Chao eggs I had never seen before! That was the hook for me, and God was it effective o,o

 

4 hours ago, Discordian said:

But as with Sonic 06 I'm hoping that the rest of the game can make up for the shitty quality control and glitchiness. I actually think Sonic 06 is one of the best games in the series wrapped in an incomplete game.

 

As much as I hated playing through Sonic 06, I do agree that there is a good idea behind all the sloppy coding. The game had a serious tone, with plenty of diversity in characters to play, had wide open stages with lots of exploration; pretty much everything I love about the Adventure games (minus the Chao Garden lol). The main problem I had with 06 besides the glitches and crap, was the awful physics system. Standing on ceilings, too many scripted moments, almost no freaking speed outside of the horrendous mach speed sections.... it was by far the roughest mainline Sonic game to date. The concept of Sonic 06 was GOOD but the execution was horrendous; and if you know me, execution is EVERYTHING. Execution is the main reason I got into MLP:FiM for Christ's sake. No way in hell a revival of My Little Pony but now with modern-age feminist undertones was a good concept lol, but the execution of the idea was immaculate, and thus created one of my all time favorite cartoons.

It is a damn shame that 06 was so unpolished/ unfinished. I honestly believe that if 06 did better, Sega would have made a proper Sonic Adventure 3 by now. 06's reception is what scared them away from the Adventure format. Of course, this is all their fault for releasing 06 in such a half assed manner, but still....

 

4 hours ago, Discordian said:

What I think they need to stop is trying to get back to Sonic's roots. It didn't work in Sonic 4 and Sonic Mania is everything I don't want the series to go back to.

 

I agree... for the mainline games. Sonic Mania looks like a PROPER quality sequel to the original masterpieces, Sonic 1-3. Hell, it looks potentially better than Sonic Cd imo. We wont know until it releases ofc, but it sure looks promising. But Sonic Mania is a spin-off of the modern mainline Sonic games. It delivers all that retro 2D side scrolling goodness fans of the classic games have been clamoring over for decades. If Sonic Mania fulfills that role, however, then WHY does Sega feel the need to inject these 2D sections into their mainline Sonic games? Let's count, shall we?

• Sonic Unleashed
• Sonic Colors
• Sonic Generations
• Sonic Lost World
• Sonic Boom
• Sonic Forces

^All mainline Sonic games with a huge emphasis on these half assed 2D sections (well perhaps a slightly smaller emphasis for Unleashed and Boom, but still!)

To me, this adherence to the 2D format even within the mainline 3D Sonic games indicates Sega is simply not confident releasing a fully 3D modern Sonic game anymore. They are afraid of negative reception.... call it PTSD from Sonic 06 xD 

 

4 hours ago, cmarston1 said:

Going back to the whole boost gameplay that Colors and Generations have used, and fine tuning it, would be the direction that I would want to see the series go in.

 

I can't say I agree, but all schools of thought are welcome here lol. Which game do you think pulled off the Boost format the best: Colors, Unleashed, or Generations?  We know that Boost Wisps are back from Sonic Colors, so that would imply the Boost gameplay would be similar to that game but with the visual spectacle of Unleashed/ Generations.

 

Speaking of visual spectacle, what do you guys think of the graphics of Sonic Forces so far? To me, it still looks like a last generation game :/ Which would be acceptable as long as they get it to run at a locked 60 fps on consoles.

Edited April 25, 2017 by K.Rool Addict

[Discordian 6,013]

The thing is that high-end graphics really only show themselves in realistic styles and overly fantastical stuff. Cartoons aren't going to show facial details and whatnot. The only thing better graphics can improve for a cartoony game is things like shading and water effects but we had that shit figured out in the 360/PS3 days.

Having detailed graphics only really matter when there are details to be had and cartoons specifically don't have those kinds of details by design. I don't agree it looks like a last-gen game because of it. That's just how cartoons look. Period.

[K.Rool Addict 718]

17 minutes ago, Discordian said:

The thing is that high-end graphics really only show themselves in realistic styles and overly fantastical stuff. Cartoons aren't going to show facial details and whatnot. The only thing better graphics can improve for a cartoony game is things like shading and water effects but we had that shit figured out in the 360/PS3 days.

Having detailed graphics only really matter when there are details to be had and cartoons specifically don't have those kinds of details by design. I don't agree it looks like a last-gen game because of it. That's just how cartoons look. Period.

 

That I have to disagree with lol:  https://mlpforums.com/topic/165065-cartoony-games-lackluster-visuals/

Cartoony games are ever improving graphically. Think about it, remember back when Toy Story or a Bug's Life was "cutting edge" visually? Now we have things like Zootopia or Inside Out. There is a hell of a jump between these two eras, and if you ask me, modern videogames are barely at the Toy Story/ Bug's Life tier when it comes to realtime in game visuals.

 

^A hellava difference between this and last gen console games

Edited April 25, 2017 by K.Rool Addict

[Twilight Dirac 720]

The fix to the Sonic franchise is simple, go back to 2d platforming.  Those are the circumstances under which Sonic actually worked and all of Sonic's mechanics were built around a 2d platformer.  To get him to do what he did in the 2d games, mainly running really fast and avoiding hazards, in 3d Sonic had to more a less be put on a weird sort of autopilot.  The 3d games thus break down into two sections, the autopilot running sections that require almost no input from the player and mediocre 3d platforming combat segments that don't stand out in any way versus other platformers.  Sonic just doesn't work in 3d, put him back in the environment he was built for and the Sonic games would be fun again.

[K.Rool Addict 718]

1 hour ago, Twilight Dirac said:

The fix to the Sonic franchise is simple, go back to 2d platforming.  Those are the circumstances under which Sonic actually worked and all of Sonic's mechanics were built around a 2d platformer.  To get him to do what he did in the 2d games, mainly running really fast and avoiding hazards, in 3d Sonic had to more a less be put on a weird sort of autopilot.  The 3d games thus break down into two sections, the autopilot running sections that require almost no input from the player and mediocre 3d platforming combat segments that don't stand out in any way versus other platformers.  Sonic just doesn't work in 3d, put him back in the environment he was built for and the Sonic games would be fun again.

 

So you think there is no possible way for Sonic to perform well in 3D? If Sonic was to remain as a 2D series, wouldn't it stay as a more niche franchise? Modern day gamers like big budget AAA games, even if a select few retro 2D games have seen massive success. The thing is, Sonic 1-3 used to be big budget spectacles.... back then. You'd be hard pressed to find a game with more beautiful visuals than something like Sonic 2, back in the early 90s. 

Imagine a new Sonic game kinda like Mania but with completely redone sprite work featuring the highest 2D sprite resolutions the world has ever seen? It could be made specifically with 4k TVs in mind, possibly hosted on the Ps4 Pro and Xbox One Scorpio. Now THAT would make a hell of an impression  Not exactly very likely to happen lol, but it would be earth shattering if it did!

I don't think many people could take Sonic as a serious series if it just remained Genesis style 2D. It seems a tad.... regressive? I mean, shouldn't games be getting bigger and better than back in the 90s?

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

Honestly, I wonder if Sonic's really ever been "Broken" as much as people like to think he is, because to me the most broken thing about the Sonic series is his fanbase. Now, I don't mean that as an insult to the fans, but just look above at the answers you have in this thread for an example? "Continue with the Boost forumula", "Go back to 2D!", "Be more like the Adventure games!", etc...Everybody's got their own idea on what would fix Sonic, or if he even needs fixing at all. The series has changed so much over the years and done so many things, in terms of gameplay, story, characters, tone, music...People have grown up with or just fallen in love with so many different things, you're never gonna get them all to agree.

 Now, how would you fix something like that? Try to pick something and be consistent, probably leaving quite a few fans behind? Or maybe, trying to please everyone, as Mania/Forces seem to be an attempt to do? That might work if done well, or people might just get annoyed at having to share the thing they want in a Sonic game with other things they don't.

Honestly, outside of a few games like 06 or Rise of Lyric, I don't think there's really been that many truly "Terrible" Sonic games, mostly good games that have a few flaws, and are usually in radically different styles which of course leads to controversy. Even those two games I just listed as terrible have their own fans though, so...yeah. Sonic's Fanbase is what's really broken, they're a broken bunch glued together by a blue hedgehog and not much else.

[Twilight Dirac 720]

42 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

So you think there is no possible way for Sonic to perform well in 3D? If Sonic was to remain as a 2D series, wouldn't it stay as a more niche franchise? Modern day gamers like big budget AAA games, even if a select few retro 2D games have seen massive success. The thing is, Sonic 1-3 used to be big budget spectacles.... back then. You'd be hard pressed to find a game with more beautiful visuals than something like Sonic 2, back in the early 90s. 

Why must every game be adapted to 3D.  There are plenty of wildly successful 2D platformers on Steam now a days, and they are taken seriously.  Just take a look at games like Ori and the Blind Forest, games like that still old up despite the existence of 3D games. Games should be transitioned to 3D for a reason above and beyond that fact that all the AAA developers are doing it.  If there are no real good ideas on what to do with Sonic upon transitioning it to 3D, then it shouldn't be transitioned to 3D.

42 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

I don't think many people could take Sonic as a serious series if it just remained Genesis style 2D. It seems a tad.... regressive? I mean, shouldn't games be getting bigger and better than back in the 90s?

Using older technology or techniques isn't regressive simply because they are older.  Game developers should use whatever tools work best for the game that they are developing, not whatever happens to be the most recently developed tool.  And games can be made bigger without switching to 3D, just compared say Super Mario 3 to Super Mario 1, its a much bigger game but its still a 2D platformer.

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Twilight Dirac

[K.Rool Addict 718]

17 minutes ago, RareBase said:

Honestly, I wonder if Sonic's really ever been "Broken" as much as people like to think he is, because to me the most broken thing about the Sonic series is his fanbase. Now, I don't mean that as an insult to the fans, but just look above at the answers you have in this thread for an example? "Continue with the Boost forumula", "Go back to 2D!", "Be more like the Adventure games!", etc...Everybody's got their own idea on what would fix Sonic, or if he even needs fixing at all. The series has changed so much over the years and done so many things, in terms of gameplay, story, characters, tone, music...People have grown up with or just fallen in love with so many different things, you're never gonna get them all to agree.

Now, how would you fix something like that? Try to pick something and be consistent, probably leaving quite a few fans behind? Or maybe, trying to please everyone, as Mania/Forces seem to be an attempt to do? That might work if done well, or people might just get annoyed at having to share the thing they want in a Sonic game with other things they don't.

That's definitely an interesting perspective. Sonic games appeal to a fair amount of people, but each of these sects were interested in a different facet of Sonic since his games have offered so much damn diversity over the years. If someone started out with the classics on Genesis for example, and this is what made them love Sonic's gameplay, they will likely want Sonic to go back to his roots. If someone became a Sonic fan recently with his boost formula games, they will want that kinda thing to be refined and continue, no doubt.  

As for Sonic Forces and Mania, they definitely do seem to be trying to appeal to multiple sects within the fandom, but this is by no means being inclusive for all sects. The Adventure era fans are clearly being neglected here.

I think it would be a great idea for Sonic to have 3 mainline franchises: One to suit the Classic fans headed by Christain Whitehead and his team. Another to appeal to modern Sonic fans who love the Boost gameplay games (WITHOUT shoving forced 2D level segments in ofc since the Whitehead team is in charge of that). And a Final one to mollify the ravenous Adventure fans who have been sorely neglected for countless years lol.

3 mainline Sonic series isn't overkill imo. Mario is capable of having multiple braching series such as the Galaxy format, (64-Sunshine-Oddysey) format, 3D World/ Land format, New Super Mario Bros, etc. 

 

24 minutes ago, Twilight Dirac said:

Why must every game be adapted to 3D.  There are plenty of wildly successful 2D platformers on Steam now a days, and they are taken seriously.  Just take a look at games like Ori and the Blind Forest, games like that still old up despite the existence of 3D games. Games should be transitioned to 3D for a reason above and beyond that fact that all the AAA developers are doing it.  If there are no real good ideas on what to do with Sonic upon transitioning it to 3D, then it shouldn't be transitioned to 3D.

Using older technology or techniques isn't regressive simply because they are older.  Game developers should use whatever tools work best for the game that they are developing, not whatever happens to be the most recently developed tool.  And games can be made bigger without switching to 3D, just compared say Super Mario 3 to Super Mario 1, its a much bigger game but its still a 2D platformer.

 

Can you honestly compare a game like Ori and the Blind forest to something like Super Mario Galaxy for example? One is clearly meant as a creative, little side project appealing to gamers more "in the know" while Galaxy is a MASS market appeal type of game. I'm not the biggest fan of Galaxy myself (as you can see here: https://mlpforums.com/topic/165207-the-rise-of-the-traditional-3-d-platformer-collectathon-genre ) but this doesn't stop me from acknowledging the clear delineation in appeal to general consumers. Mario games can still compete with the likes of CoD and GTA. Sonic? Not even close. Even with a game like Shovel Knight you don't see this kind of insane MASS market appeal.

With Sonic, I feel if they were to stay solely as a Classic styled 2D sidescroller, their best case scenario would be reception like Megaman 9-10 and worst case scenario would be along the lines of Mighty #9.

That last part I definitely agree with. Most developers have shown complete inability to properly expand the horizons of 2D sidescrollers in the modern era. Usually retro throwbacks are merely shallow attempts at milking nostalgia;Sonic Mania looks like it could potentially be the first to do a respectable job expanding upon Sonic's 1-3.

 

[Megas 27,186]

Simply take the formula from Colors and Generations and improve upon those, especially since those games were really well received by both fans and critics. I wouldn't mind seeing more experimental stuff like Lost World, but they should keep the core gameplay closer to the former two

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

17 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

As for Sonic Forces and Mania, they definitely do seem to be trying to appeal to multiple sects within the fandom, but this is by no means being inclusive for all sects. The Adventure era fans are clearly being neglected here.

Not necessarily. There are some things about Forces that Adventure fans certainly might like. The game has taken on a darker tone than the last few Sonic games, with the return of a main Vocal theme as well, and while those two things aren't Adventure specific, they are things that have fallen in prominence more and more as we've gone further into the modern era. With Colors-Lost World having the very comedic light-hearted tone, and no vocal theme since Colors. Izuka apparently even confirmed in a Famitsu interview that the tone and story for Forces were "Adventure" inspired.

 There's also that mysterious third playstyle that we know nothing about, and while it's not confirmed, it could be a playstyle based off of the Adventure era games, which I'm sure many Adventure fans would be happy about.

17 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

I think it would be a great idea for Sonic to have 3 mainline franchises: One to suit the Classic fans headed by Christain Whitehead and his team. Another to appeal to modern Sonic fans who love the Boost gameplay games (WITHOUT shoving forced 2D level segments in ofc since the Whitehead team is in charge of that). And a Final one to mollify the ravenous Adventure fans who have been sorely neglected for countless years lol.

I think 3 separate series is a bit much, and might cause some problems. How would they do that? Have Sonic team work on both the Boost and Adventure games? Make a new team for the new Adventure series? I think it'd be smarter instead to only split the series into two. One 2D and based off the Genesis games, and one 3D that combines the Boost/Adventure games together. Multiple play-styles was one of the defining things about the Adventure games after all, so they could have levels that play like the Boost games of today, and levels that play more like Sonic and Shadow's stages from the Adventure games. Throw in a few extra playable characters for both styles, go for more balanced stories with light and dark elements, put in some Chao garden's, and there you go.

Well, at least, that's how I'd do it.

Edited April 26, 2017 by RareBase

[K.Rool Addict 718]

20 minutes ago, RareBase said:

I think it'd be smarter instead to only split the series into two. One 2D and based off the Genesis games, and one 3D that combines the Boost/Adventure games together. Multiple play-styles was one of the defining things about the Adventure games after all, so they could have levels that play like the Boost games of today, and levels that play more like Sonic and Shadow's stages from the Adventure games. Throw in a few extra playable characters for both styles

^ I wouldn't be completely opposed to this idea if they proved that they could actually nail the physics/ momentum progression. Modern Boost Sonic is so loose and just "ugh" compared to the Adventure Sonics. Let's say they split it like you said and Sonic/ Shadow play exactly like Boost formula, along with the awful tank controls. But then we have side characters like Tails, Knuckles, Amy, etc who deliver that tight, responsive control along with satisfying spin dash etc. It COULD be cool.... but I think execution would fail miserably here. Sonic Team hasn't exactly proven themselves to be particularly competent as of late, at least not imo as well as many other members of the Sonic fanbase. Also, wouldn't it be a bit weird for Sonic/ Shadow to use the boost while the other characters used a spin dash? When I think spin dash, Sonic is automatically what comes to mind lol.

 

20 minutes ago, RareBase said:

Not necessarily. There are some things about Forces that Adventure fans certainly might like. The game has taken on a darker tone than the last few Sonic games, with the return of a main Vocal theme as well, and while those two things aren't Adventure specific, they are things that have fallen in prominence more and more as we've gone further into the modern era. With Colors-Lost World having the very comedic light-hearted tone, and no vocal theme since Colors. Izuka apparently even confirmed in a Famitsu interview that the tone and story for Forces were "Adventure" inspired.

We'll see about that 3rd character, but my hopes aren't very high. While Forces as a whole certainly embodies more of the superficial aspects of Sonic Adventure era games (mainly the darker tone) the meat of the games remains neglected. By meat I of course mean the traditional tight platforming controls and momentum I addressed above^ Of course, the entire emblem progression system is also absent, not to mention the Chao garden (srsly, I don't understand how any Sonic fans can like the Adventure games without the Chao gardens >.<)

 

Classic Genesis Sonic games:  I love the level design, overall gameplay, and simple progression system.

Modern "Boost" Sonic games: I love the blistering fast speed and the beautiful motion blur effects, the graphics in general are quite appealing but this is a fairly superficial aspect of the game.

Adventure style Sonic games: I love the depth and complex progression systems, including the Emblem, vast replay value for each stage, and rewards for doing these things. The controls just feel perfect here, despite the level design often being quite subpar. Chao Garden makes the game amazing instead of merely "good". Serious tone is appreciated.

^Just laying out a few things in a more concise manner so other people don't have to read all my massive walls of text lol

 

Edited April 26, 2017 by K.Rool Addict

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

37 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

^ I wouldn't be completely opposed to this idea if they proved that they could actually nail the physics/ momentum progression. Modern Boost Sonic is so loose and just "ugh" compared to the Adventure Sonics. Let's say they split it like you said and Sonic/ Shadow play exactly like Boost formula, along with the awful tank controls. But then we have side characters like Tails, Knuckles, Amy, etc who deliver that tight, responsive control along with satisfying spin dash etc. It COULD be cool.... but I think execution would fail miserably here. Sonic Team hasn't exactly proven themselves to be particularly competent as of late, at least not imo as well as many other members of the Sonic fanbase. Also, wouldn't it be a bit weird for Sonic/ Shadow to use the boost while the other characters used a spin dash? When I think spin dash, Sonic is automatically what comes to mind lol.

Well, I don't know what's proved Sonic Team as incompetent lately. I have my issues with them, but Colors and Generations were both received pretty well, and I really enjoyed Generations. Lost World might be considered a misstep, I haven't even played it yet so I can't comment on it, but from what I've seen nothing seems blatantly incompetent or broken with that game.

As for Sonic not spindashing...Well, he already barely does that anymore anyway. Which is a bit sad, so maybe they could find a way to work the Spindash in with the boost in some manner...Or Sonic could play with both play styles, which is also kind of weird but might work. It'd take some work to get both styles of gameplay working together for sure, but I don't think it's impossible.

37 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

We'll see about that 3rd character, but my hopes aren't very high. While Forces as a whole certainly embodies more of the superficial aspects of Sonic Adventure era games (mainly the darker tone) the meat of the games remains neglected. By meat I of course mean the traditional tight platforming controls and momentum I addressed above^ Of course, the entire emblem progression system is also absent, not to mention the Chao garden (srsly, I don't understand how any Sonic fans can like the Adventure games without the Chao gardens >.<)

 

Well, I assume the tight platforming controls and momentum would come with the 3rd character if they really did adopt an Adventure-like gameplay style and Sonic Team put effort into it. Of course, if it's not that it's a moot point. Red Rings can act as a sort of Emblem substitute, as they're what's been used to unlock new things in more recent Sonic games. Though obviously they're a different kind of system, since you find them in levels instead of earning them for completing missions and such.

As for the Chao Garden, who says it's not in Forces? Nobody's deconfirmed it, and for all we know it's going to have one and they're just keeping it secret as a nice surprise. Probably a long shot there that won't come true, but who knows? Maybe they'll also bring back the Super Emeralds in Mania.

Edited April 26, 2017 by RareBase

[K.Rool Addict 718]

5 minutes ago, RareBase said:

Well, I assume the tight platforming controls and momentum would come with the 3rd character if they really did adopt an Adventure-like gameplay style and Sonic Team put effort into it. Of course, if it's not that it's a moot point. Red Rings can act as a sort of Emblem substitute, as they're what's been used to unlock new things in more recent Sonic games. Though obviously they're a different kind of system, since you find them in levels instead of earning them for completing missions and such.

I would assume the 3rd gameplay style will definitely be much slower paced than the Boost styles or even the Sonic/ Shadow stages from Adventure. My guess, maybe something like Sonic, Shadow, or Silver from Sonic 06. I really do hope it ends up being a polished game, but idk man, that newest gameplay doesn't look so promising:

 

The modern stage looked pretty damn linear as well :/ Well, only time will tell I suppose.

As for the Red rings, they are no comparison to the emblems of old. Red rings are worse than those coin thingies from the New Super Mario Bros series; just lame and uninteresting. #1 they aren't very fun to collect and #2 they do not give any worthwhile rewards. That pretty much fails all the criteria for effective collectables in a videogame. Ofc, this is a subjective topic, but the Red rings in Generations, for example were just strewn across each stage willy nilly and unlocked lame stuff like music / artwork (iirc). Emblems in Adventure and Adventure 2 unlocked stuff that actually greatly impacted the gameplay of the Chao garden, among other things too. 

On the subject of the Chao Garden:

11 minutes ago, RareBase said:

As for the Chao Garden, who says it's not in Forces? Nobody's deconfirmed it, and for all we know it's going to have one and they're just keeping it secret as a nice surprise. Probably a long shot there that won't come true, but who knows? Maybe they'll also bring back the Super Emeralds in Mania.

^ No way in hell thats gonna happen xD. That would be far too good to be true. Sega will prolly release a spin off game to satisfy the Chao Garden fans eventually; not that I would want that:

7 hours ago, K.Rool Addict said:

Now, do I want Sega to just release a spin off Chao Garden series? Well, at this point, I'm willing to take anything lol -.- BUT, I would PREFER if they did not go that direction. What made the Chao Garden so fun was how the unlockables and stat boosts/ animals factored into the actual main game. I loved working super hard pulling my hair out trying to get as many emblems as possible because I knew it would unlock some new crazy Chao eggs I had never seen before! That was the hook for me, and God was it effective o,o

It'll still likely happen though, since Sega is a corporation and thusly will try anything to make a quick buck with as little resources/ effort as possible -.-

The Super Emeralds has a way better chance of happening imo. I can see them incorporating some kind of unique bonus stage similar to CD too.

[BastementSparkle 20,312]

30 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

I would assume the 3rd gameplay style will definitely be much slower paced than the Boost styles or even the Sonic/ Shadow stages from Adventure. My guess, maybe something like Sonic, Shadow, or Silver from Sonic 06. I really do hope it ends up being a polished game, but idk man, that newest gameplay doesn't look so promising:

The third gameplay style has been stated to be "Sonic-Like" by Izuka as well. So, that makes me imagine it'll also be rather fast-paced. https://twitter.com/BlueParax/status/856267256233381888

30 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

The modern stage looked pretty damn linear as well :/ Well, only time will tell I suppose.

You can see plenty of places where the Classic level there splits off into upper and lower paths. It's not quite as explorative as something like CD or 3&K, but it's not fully linear either. We've only seen 40 seconds of Modern gameplay too, and in both cases we're likely seeing either the first levels, or very early levels of both gameplay styles. It's too early too tell really, might be kind of linear, might not.

 

30 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

As for the Red rings, they are no comparison to the emblems of old. Red rings are worse than those coin thingies from the New Super Mario Bros series; just lame and uninteresting. #1 they aren't very fun to collect and #2 they do not give any worthwhile rewards. That pretty much fails all the criteria for effective collectables in a videogame. Ofc, this is a subjective topic, but the Red rings in Generations, for example were just strewn across each stage willy nilly and unlocked lame stuff like music / artwork (iirc). Emblems in Adventure and Adventure 2 unlocked stuff that actually greatly impacted the gameplay of the Chao garden, among other things too. 

I actually rather like the Red Rings. When I was trying to grab them all in Generations they forced me to look all around the stages and take different routes than I usually would, making me explore the stages more. They encourage exploration and I think that's a good thing. As for them not giving worthwhile rewards, in Colors they unlocked those optional game-land levels, which if you managed to beat all those you'd unlock Super Sonic. Now, I'm not the biggest fan of Colors, but plenty of people really love that game, I've seen it top more than a few top ten lists, and a bunch of extra levels and the ability to play as Super Sonic sound like some pretty good rewards to me. They also unlocked new skills for the Sonic's in Generations, along with the art and music like you said.

The emblems aren't really much better though, for the most part they just unlock new items for the black market in the Chao Garden's. That's great if you like chao and I certainly do, but if you aren't interested in them? Not much for you. In the Gamecube port of Adventure 1 they'd also net you a bunch of Game Gear games, but that's only one port and otherwise you just get Metal Sonic once you've got all 130 and he's just a Sonic skin basically. In SA2 you can get the 3D Green Hill Zone with all 180, but before that not much, except different cart skins for getting the all A-Rank emblems.

Besides, not giving good rewards wouldn't be a fault of the Red rings themselves anyway, since any collectible could theoretically suffer from that, and it could be fixed just by making better rewards for getting them.

30 minutes ago, K.Rool Addict said:

^ No way in hell thats gonna happen xD. That would be far too good to be true. Sega will prolly release a spin off game to satisfy the Chao Garden fans eventually; not that I would want that:

7 hours ago, K.Rool Addict said:

Now, do I want Sega to just release a spin off Chao Garden series? Well, at this point, I'm willing to take anything lol -.- BUT, I would PREFER if they did not go that direction. What made the Chao Garden so fun was how the unlockables and stat boosts/ animals factored into the actual main game. I loved working super hard pulling my hair out trying to get as many emblems as possible because I knew it would unlock some new crazy Chao eggs I had never seen before! That was the hook for me, and God was it effective o,o

It'll still likely happen though, since Sega is a corporation and thusly will try anything to make a quick buck with as little resources/ effort as possible -.-

The Super Emeralds has a way better chance of happening imo. I can see them incorporating some kind of unique bonus stage similar to CD too.

Yeah, the Chao garden is mostly wishful thinking at this point. Wishes are Eternal though...I'll hold out hope until I have the game in my hands and see for a fact they aren't there.

Christian Whitehead and his team obviously know the classics, so I wouldn't put it past them to bring the Super Emeralds back. But last I heard Sega had decided that the Super Emeralds were now "Non-Canon", so that makes me wonder if they'd even let him bring them back or not. I hope so, I kind of loved just wrecking the entire game with Hyper Sonic in 3&K after finally getting all those Emeralds.

Edited April 26, 2017 by RareBase

[Discordian 6,013]

15 hours ago, Twilight Dirac said:

Why must every game be adapted to 3D.

 

Because games limited to a 2D plane are limited in what they can do for story and atmosphere. Levels like City Escape, Crisis City and even Chemical Plant Zone are vastly different in 2D than they are in 3D, as proven by Generations having both versions. By far the 3D versions of those levels (as well as the originals for the former two) outclassed any of the 2D ones. Especially for displaying Sonic's speed first and foremost.

 

Few, if any, games can stay on a 2D plane and still feel like an adventure, an epic or a cinematic experience. It feels too much like a game and not enough like a story and that by itself breaks immersion.

[K.Rool Addict 718]

3 hours ago, Discordian said:

Levels like City Escape, Crisis City and even Chemical Plant Zone are vastly different in 2D than they are in 3D, as proven by Generations having both versions. By far the 3D versions of those levels (as well as the originals for the former two) outclassed any of the 2D ones. Especially for displaying Sonic's speed first and foremost.

^ No way, Sonic 2 Chemical Plant zone was immaculate. Best version of it definitely, and it showcased some of the highest speed possible in any 2D Sonic game to date (yes including Sonic Advance 2).

City Escape was definitely the most fun stage of Sonic Adventure 2; I must have played it over 1000 times literally (Chao Garden stat capsule farming and so on ^///^). Believe it or not, it was the Modern boost rendition of City Escape in Generations which made me buy the game. All the gameplay I saw online of that stage got me so hyped to play it, and the music remixes were awesome. HOWEVER, upon actually buying the game and playing through it, City Escape disappointed on all fronts. It just didn't have any of the things I loved about the Adventure 2 version (besides good graphics and awesome music). I found myself so bored with it, I dont think I even played it over 10 times... With the Adventure games you had incentive to play these stages; namely emblems and Chao Garden stuffs. But without that extra incentive, the stage just fell completely flat for me. It just feels like killing time instead of working towards something, ya know?

[K.Rool Addict 718]

Wow, whoever made this trailer needs a promotion >.>

^Can't believe it but Sonic Mania is actually getting me... dare I say excited o.o

So much ambition here, not just in the awesome cel animation but more importantly, the gameplay looks really progressive instead of merely regressive like so so many other tired retro callbacks. I hate to get my hopes up for a new Sonic game considering how many times I have been disappointed in the past -.-

[Vicke 3,187]

Make Sonic Adveture 3. 
BAM! Fixed. 

 

 

Seriously though. I do believe that if they bring back the adventure series and put their time to refine the gameplay, it would be an amazing game. I adore Adveture 2 myself, and have played through the story multiple times. I don't want to play the new or the old Sonic. The new Sonic is WAY to fast. You push the stick forward and sometime presses X for dash. That is essentially the game in a nutshell. The old Sonic is just not fun to me. A masterpiece of it's time, but has aged badly unlike Mario Bros 3. 

Sonic Adventure 2 had the perfect balance of Speed, attack and decision making. The bosses ranged from fun to lame though :/