How does anypony love Celestia more

[Jedishy 3,549]

Ok, so the whole reason Princess Luna became Nightmare Moon was because she saw everypony showing her sister Princess Celestia love while she was ignored. However, if we look at what she actually does I don't get how this happened. Luna goes into pony's dreams and helps them face their nightmares. She works them through their greatest fears and troubles this way. How on earth could anyone fail to love her at equal measure if not more than her sister? 

[CypherHoof 26,483]

I don't think they did. It's all about perception though; the ponies were out laughing and playing during her sister's Day, and at Night, when she was there, all she saw was ponies that needed help and other ponies that were dreaming about whatever ponies dream about, and not thinking about Luna at all. Celestia is PR Pony - she is out there, receiving visible adoration from entire crowds while Luna was having one-on-one interactions with the ponies who needed her.

Isn't this what was bubbling back up under the surface in Royal Problem though?

[Jedishy 3,549]

7 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

I don't think they did. It's all about perception though; the ponies were out laughing and playing during her sister's Day, and at Night, when she was there, all she saw was ponies that needed help and other ponies that were dreaming about whatever ponies dream about, and not thinking about Luna at all. Celestia is PR Pony - she is out there, receiving visible adoration from entire crowds while Luna was having one-on-one interactions with the ponies who needed her.

Isn't this what was bubbling back up under the surface in Royal Problem though?

I am still in season 5 so I do not know yet. But I can see where you are coming from. So am I right in saying you think its all in her head? That pony's love her but she just does not see it due to her duty schedule? If so then I still feel like the ponies are ungrateful. How on Equestria is there not at least a day if not some sort of week or month dedicated to her? I mean if someone was dang near god like powers and aided in fixing my greatest fears they would have my love and dedication for life. 

[CypherHoof 26,483]

Just now, Jedishy said:

I am still in season 5 so I do not know yet. But I can see where you are coming from. So am I right in saying you think its all in her head? That pony's love her but she just does not see it due to her duty schedule? If so then I still feel like the ponies are ungrateful. How on Equestria is there not at least a day if not some sort of week or month dedicated to her? I mean if someone was dang near god like powers and aided in fixing my greatest fears they would have my love and dedication for life. 

I think you will like Royal Problem then - eventually :D. But in S5, you DO have Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep which shows not just the mane 6 but the whole of Ponyville fighting FOR Luna, against her personal nightmare. When you add in the earlier Luna Eclipsed (where Twi helps her connect to the ponies of Ponyville in a more personal way) and cameos like Sleepless in Ponyville you can see how Luna herself has changed and adapted to the sense of friendship the Mane 6 have brought to Ponyville, but equally, you could see in that how she was holding herself distant and aloof from her subjects in the past... And what that eventually cost her.

Luna then isn't Luna now - she has become closer to everypony, and is herself a better pony for it.

[Jedishy 3,549]

4 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

I think you will like Royal Problem then - eventually :D. But in S5, you DO have Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep which shows not just the mane 6 but the whole of Ponyville fighting FOR Luna, against her personal nightmare. When you add in the earlier Luna Eclipsed (where Twi helps her connect to the ponies of Ponyville in a more personal way) and cameos like Sleepless in Ponyville you can see how Luna herself has changed and adapted to the sense of friendship the Mane 6 have brought to Ponyville, but equally, you could see in that how she was holding herself distant and aloof from her subjects in the past... And what that eventually cost her.

Luna then isn't Luna now - she has become closer to everypony, and is herself a better pony for it.

I just stopped at Do Princesses dream last night so I will see more of it today. Again I see your point on how she largely created her own disconnect. However its still odd to me there is no holiday dedicated to her work. I mean even a distant "god" that cared for you in myth got feast days. Never mind one that you know you could go visit at the nations capitol. Had the citizens of Equestria bothered to show some gratitude it seems like it might have helped. ( I mean there is the sun raising celebration of Celestia having to banish her own sister for crying out loud )  

[CypherHoof 26,483]

8 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

I just stopped at Do Princesses dream last night so I will see more of it today. Again I see your point on how she largely created her own disconnect. However its still odd to me there is no holiday dedicated to her work. I mean even a distant "god" that cared for you in myth got feast days. Never mind one that you know you could go visit at the nations capitol. Had the citizens of Equestria bothered to show some gratitude it seems like it might have helped. ( I mean there is the sun raising celebration of Celestia having to banish her own sister for crying out loud )  

I suspect that means there wasn't a sun raising celebration until after Nightmare Moon tried to bring about eternal night... and as shown, that also created Nightmare Night which probably isn't something Luna is proud of, but at least is sorta her day (certainly the little fillies want her to come be scary next year too)

Summer sun celebration is now a joint effort too - as seen in the S4 opener; Luna lowers the moon, Celestia raises the sun, and at the transition point, Twi does a TwiBoom. As I say, things have changed

[Jedishy 3,549]

Eh, you make a good point that she does sort of have a day now. But it just feels odd that there was not one for her in the past considering how highly Id value her dream work. I mean maybe its just not shown but Luna does indeed appear to get less love. To me even though she is a bit distant with most common folk her work would make me connect with her on a far deeper level than her sister. I mean maybe I am projecting my own preferences but it's just surprising there is not a more almost cult like following to each of them with days or weeks that followers dedicate to them. 

As an aside why was that move called a TwiBoom by the fandom? It's not a sonicboom or any other explosion. It's more of a flash of magic. 

[Black Sabbath 2,486]

According to the comics it wasn't until she was banished to the moon that she learnt how to enter other ponies dreams.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Yamet

[CypherHoof 26,483]

1 minute ago, Jedishy said:

Eh, you make a good point that she does sort of have a day now. But it just feels odd that there was not one for her in the past considering how highly Id value her dream work.

It's possible that it just wasn't as big a deal back then - presuming the comics are cannon, we know that the royal sisters were still fillies in Starswirl's era, and may not even have been alicorns at first. It is possible that a lot of the ritual around Celestia grew after that, and as Yamet points out, in the comics Luna learned how to enter dreams while on the moon (mind you, that's also the comic that gives us Nightmare Rarity, so is clearly not entirely cannon :D)

 

1 minute ago, Jedishy said:

 

I mean maybe its just not shown but Luna does indeed appear to get less love. To me even though she is a bit distant with most common folk her work would make me connect with her on a far deeper level than her sister. I mean maybe I am projecting my own preferences but it's just surprising there is not a more almost cult like following to each of them with days or weeks that followers dedicate to them. 

For all their power though, they are not seen as gods; Celestia is respected as the ruler of Equestria, and as you say, her fans can literally go and see her, which reduces them from a cult to a fan club (I suspect there may have been cults to Nightmare Moon during the thousand years, but I doubt they were public. Maybe they were shadow ponies?)

1 minute ago, Jedishy said:

As an aside why was that move called a TwiBoom by the fandom? It's not a sonicboom or any other explosion. It's more of a flash of magic. 

Its an obvious construct from "rainboom"

[Jedishy 3,549]

17 minutes ago, Yamet said:

According to the comics it wasn't until she was banished to the moon that she learnt how to enter other ponies dreams.

Ok no one is allowed to give me more crap that I want to buy and read. I already need a forth dang bookshelf as it is. 

9 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

It's possible that it just wasn't as big a deal back then - presuming the comics are cannon, we know that the royal sisters were still fillies in Starswirl's era, and may not even have been alicorns at first. It is possible that a lot of the ritual around Celestia grew after that, and as Yamet points out, in the comics Luna learned how to enter dreams while on the moon (mind you, that's also the comic that gives us Nightmare Rarity, so is clearly not entirely cannon :D)

 

For all their power though, they are not seen as gods; Celestia is respected as the ruler of Equestria, and as you say, her fans can literally go and see her, which reduces them from a cult to a fan club (I suspect there may have been cults to Nightmare Moon during the thousand years, but I doubt they were public. Maybe they were shadow ponies?)

Its an obvious construct from "rainboom"

Well if she only learned it recently that makes even more sense. I know they are not seen as goods I am just saying that their powers are god like and thus I know that could and most likely would inspire such things if pony nature is anything like human nature. Seems to me though that this is a combination of her not having enough time to establish a connection with her people at first and being stand offish. Still, think she kicks plot though. Frankly, she seems to be more loving than her sister based on her work. ( Not knocking the Sun queen rulers often have to develop the bit of professional distance I seem to feel from her ) 

As for the last bit maybe I am too much the literalist. I just saw what it was called and went but but its not a sonic boom or explosion...... 

LOL I know why it's referenced to but the rainboom made sense to me for obvious reasons this one just was a head scratcher to me 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Jedishy

[CypherHoof 26,483]

20 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Ok no one is allowed to give me more crap that I want to buy and read. I already need a forth dang bookshelf as it is. 

I know the feeling; there are electronic copies for sale as well though, which take up significantly less space

 

Quote

Well if she only learned it recently that makes even more sense. I know they are not seen as goods I am just saying that their powers are god like and thus I know that could and most likely would inspire such things if pony nature is anything like human nature.

Which would also explain how a formal structure of respect (ponies bowing when she arrives, being pulled around in a carriage by a royal guard, HAVING a royal guard, that sort of thing) built up around her; there are plenty of parallels for that in our own world, where people try to establish a pecking order based on proximity to the throne.  But I don't think their powers are godlike. Implicit in their training and ascension from Starswirl is a world BEFORE the royal sisters, where the sun and the moon had to be raised by teams of unicorns, but could still be so raised - they are as powerful as an entire team of ponies, but no more powerful than a team of ponies would be.

 

Quote

Seems to me though that this is a combination of her not having enough time to establish a connection with her people at first and being stand offish. Still, think she kicks plot though. Frankly, she seems to be more loving than her sister based on her work. ( Not knocking the Sun queen rulers often have to develop the bit of professional distance I seem to feel from her ) 

There is that, but there is also the reality that the Sisters appear immortal or near to it. That she is as fond of Twilight as she is may factor into this - she may have allowed herself to become close to Twilight because she saw her potential to be given wings, but equally - how many times must you allow yourself to become close to someone (and heaven forbid, find a Special Somepony) only to see them age and die in front of your eyes, while you remain unchanged, before the pain becomes too much and you must by necessity keep a wall of formality between you and everypony else just so you can face the morning?  Cadence and Twilight may not have become Alicorns because they were special in some abstract sense, but because Celestia was selfish enough to want someponies who didn't have the comparative lifespan of a gnat to share her life with, no matter what the downstream cost to those ponies would be. 

I am worried about Cadence because of this; her cutie mark, her magic, her entire existence revolves around love, and what of her Special Somepony, Shining Armour? is there going to be some reason to give him wings too, or.... ?

Edited August 28, 2017 by CypherHoof
removed spoiler :)

[Jedishy 3,549]

5 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

I know the feeling; there are electronic copies for sale as well though, which take up significantly less space

Blasphemy! I shall not take part in the heathen kingdom of ebooks!

6 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

Which would also explain how a formal structure of respect (ponies bowing when she arrives, being pulled around in a carriage by a royal guard, HAVING a royal guard, that sort of thing) built up around her; there are plenty of parallels for that in our own world, where people try to establish a pecking order based on proximity to the throne.  But I don't think their powers are godlike. Implicit in their training and ascension from Starswirl is a world BEFORE the royal sisters, where the sun and the moon had to be raised by teams of unicorns, but could still be so raised - they are as powerful as an entire team of ponies, but no more powerful than a team of ponies would be.

Well, they have immortality as you said, far more power then any one pony, far more variety of powers than most other creatures in the world so id have to say that is pretty god like. 

7 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

I am worried about Cadence because of this; her cutie mark, her magic, her entire existence revolves around love, and what of her Special Somepony, Shining Armour? is there going to be some reason to give him wings too, or.... ?

This could be a hard but necessary lesson for her. Love is more than just personal love. She could be forced to take a more pervasive view of the feeling that is her specialty. 

[CypherHoof 26,483]

Just now, Jedishy said:

Blasphemy! I shall not take part in the heathen kingdom of ebooks!

How about Ecomics?

 

Just now, Jedishy said:

Well, they have immortality as you said, far more power then any one pony, far more variety of powers than most other creatures in the world so id have to say that is pretty god like. 

Nah. Just list the number of times Alicorns either got their asses handed to them, had to resort to the overwhelming power of the Tree/Elements, or both?  uh huh. now list how many times the Alicorns won by using their superior alicorn power again... oh, none? all right then.  Even with the combined power of all four alicorns, Twi took a beating from Tirek, and <spoiler deleted> <spoiler deleted> so there's that (and yeah, I did that deliberately :D)

Even Discord's power has limits, but again, spoiler. I am mildly jealous that those ARE spoilers for you though; you have some significant awesomeness yet to watch.

Just now, Jedishy said:

This could be a hard but necessary lesson for her. Love is more than just personal love. She could be forced to take a more pervasive view of the feeling that is her specialty. 

Again, spoilers, sadly. But you must admit that losing your Special Somepony would be an order of magnitude worse than losing even a close friend?

[Jedishy 3,549]

@CypherHoof  

First off none of your heathen trickery like convenience or monetary and space savings will sway me from the one true faith of printed works!

 

Secondly, gods in myth get their tails kicked all the time and need to resort to specialized weapons. Heck, they even resort to human champions from time to time. But any time we see them get their tail kicked its usually at the hands of another godlike creature or a creature that has the ability to drain the power from them. 

Oh yes it would be worse. I suppose that how much depends on how close your friend is but yes indeed it would suck worse. 

[CypherHoof 26,483]

2 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

@CypherHoof  

First off none of your heathen trickery like convenience or monetary and space savings will sway me from the one true faith of printed works!

 

I do appreciate being able to curl up with a good book - but I can also appreciate when I am away onsite, being able to take every book Pratchett ever wrote, dozens of movies, and years of online comics with me on a chip the size of my fingernail, and literally hundreds of reference books for my work on a second such chip.

But yeah, there are paper books I have here you would have to prise from my cold, dead fingers and even then I may try to ensure my zombie stops them being taken

 

2 minutes ago, Jedishy said:

Secondly, gods in myth get their tails kicked all the time and need to resort to specialized weapons. Heck, they even resort to human champions from time to time. But any time we see them get their tail kicked its usually at the hands of another godlike creature or a creature that has the ability to drain the power from them. 

Spoilers again. But I will say I have never seen an Alicorn win; the best you will have seen so far is Twi forcing Starlight to flee, while she has the entire village and her friends behind her.  But hey, that's in keeping with the theme - you need your friends, because FiM.....
....

 

[Ginger Ale 723]

Princess Luna was never Princess Luna back in those times maybe. We are sure that those years she was a rebel and jealous one. I doubt she was even thoughtful enough to enter ponies dreams as you can see from the intro she just looks at them from the top while they all sleep outside at night time. My thoughts though.

[Singe 2,111]

1000 years in the past, ponies would have less reason to stay up at night unlike the modern era.

[FizzyGreen 909]

Maybe Luna didn't always do what she does today? At least not with the same success. And also, maybe ponies were thinking about the dreams as just that: Dreams. Things that didn't happen. And maybe ponies didn't have so much problems, and the ones they had were easily fixed by a random dream where Luna appeared.

I can see how she doesn't get recognition for that.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Jedishy said:

Ok, so the whole reason Princess Luna became Nightmare Moon was because she saw everypony showing her sister Princess Celestia love while she was ignored. However, if we look at what she actually does I don't get how this happened. Luna goes into pony's dreams and helps them face their nightmares. She works them through their greatest fears and troubles this way. How on earth could anyone fail to love her at equal measure if not more than her sister? 

She might have (most definitely) changed from what she was 1000 years ago. 

Even with that, Celestia is the more "happy" looking one, you know, bright atmosphere and stuff. Would make sense for ponies or even humans to like her more because of her positive vibes.:D Just my opinion.

[CypherHoof 26,483]

3 minutes ago, Niko said:

She might have (most definitely) changed from what she was 1000 years ago. 

Even with that, Celestia is the more "happy" looking one, you know, bright atmosphere and stuff. Would make sense for ponies or even humans to like her more because of her positive vibes.:D Just my opinion.

I am going to go with a Starlight quote "I think you might be biassed"

[Guest]

Just now, CypherHoof said:

I am going to go with a Starlight quote "I think you might be biassed"

I wouldn't really disagree. Celly is by far my favorite character:D

[CypherHoof 26,483]

Just now, Niko said:

I wouldn't really disagree. Celly is by far my favorite character:D

We wouldn't have noticed, honest.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, CypherHoof said:

We wouldn't have noticed, honest.

:^) Definitely not

[FizzyGreen 909]

5 minutes ago, Niko said:

:^) Definitely not

This looked really ironic just saying

 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, FizzyGreen said:

This looked really ironic just saying

 

Maybe a bit :^)