Twilight Sparkle - Made for success? [S9 spoilers!]

[Stardust Live 43]

The title kinda should be 'bred for success', but that carries connotations I don't want O_O

So, I think Twilight is the worst pony for a lot of reasons, and a lotta people point out how privileged she really is, even before she became a princess. I don't doubt her destiny was earmarked for that from the beginning, even if I don't like how the show did it and how the show ended. My greater point is this; the episode 'Sparkle's Seven', there's an established rivalry between Twilight and Shining that was encouraged by their parents from the very beginning, and that got me thinking ...

Were Twilight Sparkle and Shining Armour bred/made from the beginning for success at the expense of their development?

Here's what I mean by that; both of them have gotten some high positions and some incredible lucky breaks. But it seems that this has come at the cost of some humility and friendship for the pair of them, more obvious in Twilight than Shining. She was almost brutal in her desire to win in the trivia contest, going so far as to be outright hostile to Pinkie Pie at times, who only wanted to help. It just seemed so grossly out of character at times, it was almost torture to watch.

Here are reasons the pair have gotten pretty much Equestria handed to them on a plate:

• Both are born in Canterlot, true that's something out of their control. But you can't say that doesn't give them a huge advantage; imagine someone from Appaloosa having to take the train to Celestia's school every day if they could make it
• Shining Armor becomes Captain of the Royal Guard, an incredibly high position
• He marries an alicorn Princess, Cadence, whom he just happened to win the heart of in high school. Sure, the comics show him as a 'nerd', but how many nerds are handsome by pony standards with surfer accents?
• Cadence babysits foal Twilight. How many foals have ALICORN PRINCESSES AS THEIR FOALSITTER????
• Twilight just so happens to personally impress Celestia and is taken as her personal student
• She has an incredible home in Canterlot that she can just abandon at will to move when her Princess commands. She moves and is immediately given a job in a new place, and shortly discovers she holds the most powerful part of the Elements of Harmony, as well as making 5 friends super quick after being hostile to them for quite a bit. Defeats a legendary evil, and that becomes super common.
• Becomes a Princess in her own right rather suddenly
• Twilight becomes the aunt of the seemingly first natural-born alicorn foal in all of Equestria, and Shining Armour fathered said foal
• Shining Armour is Prince Consort of the Crystal Empire, but also still Captain of the Canterlot Royal Guard? It's not clear
• Shining Armour can rope Celestia and Luna into playing this stupid game with his sister under the guise of increasing security

I think their parents are kinda giving this family unhealthy vibes. Who does this super-competitive contest and doesn't reign it in? Especially when Shining is quite a bit older than Twilight? It's clearly damaged Twllight's noggin, as she goes crackers in Sparkle's Seven and the trivia episode. She already had a problem with being the best and being perfect (like in that library episode that was PAINFUL), shouldn't her parents have done or said something about this? Or are they going with it as they groomed Twilight and Shining for perfection and high status from the start?

I dunno, Twilight just seems untouchable and it really annoys me, the Sparkle's Seven part reminded me of the Geller Cup from Friends. Ross and Monica had a super unhealthy dynamic as kids that was pretty much emotional abuse from their mother, and their father didn't stop it. It gave me the same vibes.

Discuss!

[Pentium100 2,057]

You know, I kinda think that Twilight got the short end of the stick compared to her friends. Her friends got what they wanted, while I do not think that Twilight wanted to rule Equestria, but she did everything Celestia asked to avoid disappointing her. So, I don't think it is that much of a success for her.

[Winter Storm 207]

I think Twilight Sparkle was selected by Celestia when she was a filly and made a long term project. Part of that involved assigning Cadance to be her babysitter which would be quite a privilege for Twilight's family.

Twilight's parents clearly already had status in Equestrian society just to get her into Celestia's unicorn kindergarten. Surely Celestia can't teach every young unicorn and being selected must be a high honor. I think Shining Armor's later marriage to princess Cadance was more a "reward" to their family than anything else. It also gave Twilight a reason to help Cadance seize the Crystal Empire which also served as one of Celestia's tests of Twilight. That's two gryphons with one stone.

All of this makes me severely question Celestia's judgement regardless of Twilight's qualities. In a way it wasn't exactly fair to Twilight who never got to choose her own path in life. Its just a very biased way of selecting a successor. Yet perhaps it's realistic to what might historically occur in our world if a king couldn't have a natural-born heir yet still had the opportunity to groom a successor.

[Stardust Live 43]

True, but she seems to think Twilight will do okay as a named ruler without someone else of equal status. Sure, she has her friends, but if you are a Princess, your friends can't directly challange you, especially when some cannot fly and some cannot do magic.

Cadance seems to be the only person in Twilight's family to give her actual advice. Her mom comes across as a few puddings short of a bakery

[Lambdadelta 1,462]

In season 8, i just thought maybe the Twilight being the school principal is the her most fitting role because that what she CHOOSE to do and she doesnt need to be a princess or a great magician, just a humble principal to spread her magic of friendship but no, she is a ruler of Equestria just because Celestia told her so...

The more i think about this, the more i think season 9 is getting worse in my mind.

 

[PsychicKid 6]

I've greatly enjoyed Twilight's growth and development over the course of the series, especially since she's my favorite pony. Stories about destiny have always tickled the sweet spot for me ever since a young age, but I've always operated under the assumption of destiny being a "strong suggestion" of sorts. It can definitely backfire and fail (as evident by the uncountable number of fanfics out there, where MLP spins off in any number of directions). Whether by luck, freak accident, or some pre-ordained deal, Twilight was born with an absurdly high amount of latent power, which Celestia took note of. I don't think their specific upbringing or origin has any real bearing on that, it's just where they were born.

But, I'm also pretty lax when it comes to this sort of thing. I just love seeing my favorite purple pony princess!

[Pentium100 2,057]

8 hours ago, PsychicKid said:

Twilight was born with an absurdly high amount of latent power, which Celestia took note of.

And used it directly at first, Twilight and her friends were, essentially, the Equestrian version of spetsnaz. Which is, well, OK, somebody has to defeat the villain of the week. And then Celestia made Twilight into a politician (I do not think that Twilight expressed the desire to be one at any time in the show). I am sure her magic power is really useful when negotiating trade deals with other countries.

Starlight being the administrator of the school is less weird, because Starlight seems to like being in charge (well, nobody forced her to be in charge of her village).

The rest of the main characters got what they wanted:
Applejack - she only cared about her family business and it looks like that business is doing OK.
Pinkie Pie - she wanted to make ponies smile, organize parties etc and she has that. I guess she also wanted a family. Cool.
Rainbow Dash - wanted to join the Wonderbolts and actually did it, eventually becoming the leader.
Fluttershy - wanted to help animals, now has an animal sanctuary.
Rarity - wanted to become a successful and famous business owner and got that, with multiple shops etc.

On the other hand, Celestia had a "plan" for Twilight and didn't ask her if she wanted to follow the "plan".

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

On 3/15/2020 at 7:15 AM, Stardust Live said:

True, but she seems to think Twilight will do okay as a named ruler without someone else of equal status. Sure, she has her friends, but if you are a Princess, your friends can't directly challange you, especially when some cannot fly and some cannot do magic.

Cadance seems to be the only person in Twilight's family to give her actual advice. Her mom comes across as a few puddings short of a bakery

You’re kind of assuming that just because Celestia and Luna retired they’ve lost all clout. Sure they don’t hold any official office, but public figures can still influence people. You don’t just stop being respected and admired because you retire.

And Twilight freakin hero worships the princesses. Just because she became the head of Equestria doesn’t mean she’ll stop asking her old mentors for their thoughts and advice.

[Stardust Live 43]

19 minutes ago, ShadOBabe said:

You’re kind of assuming that just because Celestia and Luna retired they’ve lost all clout. Sure they don’t hold any official office, but public figures can still influence people. You don’t just stop being respected and admired because you retire.

And Twilight freakin hero worships the princesses. Just because she became the head of Equestria doesn’t mean she’ll stop asking her old mentors for their thoughts and advice.

Twilight worships ONE of the Princesses; she worships Celestia. And I don't see how Celestia would allow her to cling to her skirts after she 'retires', Twilight seems to have just taken to the title by wearing Celestia's skin and is it possible to communicate after that 'retirement' that would pretty much be Sailing Into The West or dying in most other series?

[ShadOBabe 18,984]

1 hour ago, Stardust Live said:

Twilight worships ONE of the Princesses; she worships Celestia. And I don't see how Celestia would allow her to cling to her skirts after she 'retires', Twilight seems to have just taken to the title by wearing Celestia's skin and is it possible to communicate after that 'retirement' that would pretty much be Sailing Into The West or dying in most other series?

No, Twilight also big-sister worships Cadence. Luna is debatable, but she’s still an authority figure, and Twilight is all about authority figures.

I don’t see how asking for counsel equals “cling to skirts”. Why do you think that they’d be like, “Nope, we’re retired. Never write to us or ask us questions, even though we’ve been doing that job the longest and know the most about it.”

All the adult princesses are mentor figures. Complete abandonment would be very out of character for them.

And no I don’t agree with that assessment of their retirement at all. A lot of people in this fandom seem to have a very weird view of what retirement means. Like it’s just, “Welp, time to sit around and do nothing until I finally croak.”

Yeah no. Especially not for two immortals who, while old, still have their youthful bodies and can go and do anything they like. Silver Shoals will be home base, but I’d bet my right leg that they won’t actually be spending much time there.

Edited March 17, 2020 by ShadOBabe

[PsychicKid 6]

4 hours ago, Pentium100 said:

On the other hand, Celestia had a "plan" for Twilight and didn't ask her if she wanted to follow the "plan".

Perhaps. Twilight definitely would not want to disappoint Celestia. But, we never actually see this conflict that you speak of. It makes a great idea for a source of conflict, but we only ever see Twilight have doubts about her ability as a Princess, not specifically if she wanted to follow Celestia's plan or not. Heck, maybe she doesn't mind? She has no problem answering the call to arms (she even initiates it in S1E1), so maybe her silent acceptance of following Celestia is a result of that. Heck, she was verbally defiant against Celestia's orders to go to Ponyville. It's probably one of the few times, if not only, that we've seen her speak out against Celestia. I think if she truly had reservations about this sort of thing, she would have spoken up about it. I think the fact that she follows to Celestia's plan isn't because she wants to earn brownie points with Celestia or because she feels like she's being strong armed, it's because she's genuinely a good pony.

Still! It would make a good fanfic idea if nothing else!

Edit: to add to this, sometimes life just throws us curve balls and we don't really have that much of a choice anyway. Even if she didn't want it, she still seems pretty happy and is acclimated to her role.

Edited March 17, 2020 by PsychicKid
Added stuff

[Pentium100 2,057]

3 minutes ago, PsychicKid said:

Twilight definitely would not want to disappoint Celestia.

Twilight is so afraid of disappointing Celestia that she brainwashed entire Ponyville once to avoid it (well, it was an accident, but caused by her "any means necessary" approach).

So, if Celestia told her to cut off her wings and jump out the window, she would do it in an instant and worry if she was fast enough all the way down.

I guess that's one of the main differences between me and her (well, aside from the whole purple unicorn thing).

11 minutes ago, PsychicKid said:

She has no problem answering the call to arms (she even initiates it in S1E1)

That is kind-of understandable - she is really powerful and so stands the best chance against Nightmare Moon and if nobody does anything, then everyone is going to die, so it's a choice between certain death after a while or maybe-death sooner. 

[PsychicKid 6]

4 minutes ago, Pentium100 said:

Twilight is so afraid of disappointing Celestia that she brainwashed entire Ponyville once to avoid it (well, it was an accident, but caused by her "any means necessary" approach).

So, if Celestia told her to cut off her wings and jump out the window, she would do it in an instant and worry if she was fast enough all the way down.

I guess that's one of the main differences between me and her (well, aside from the whole purple unicorn thing).

That is kind-of understandable - she is really powerful and so stands the best chance against Nightmare Moon and if nobody does anything, then everyone is going to die, so it's a choice between certain death after a while or maybe-death sooner. 

Eh, I've always taken some issue with Lesson Zero. But my personal opinions on the episode aren't relevant here. You were definitely correct that one of Twilight's biggest flaws is her hero worship. I understand that you're kind of speaking in hyperbole example, but I do think she has her limits in extreme situations. As an example, if Celestia order Twilight to strike down one of her friends as part of a loyalty test, I guarantee you she would refuse, or find some other way to circumvent the situation (ala Kobayashi Maru).

I appreciate the way you worded the second part of your post though. Perhaps I'm looking into it from the wrong angle, but you seem to suggest that Twilight's motivation for stopping Nightmare Moon is "I'm the only one who can do this because I'm the only one powerful enough to do it. Definitely valid, although my mindset was more of "I'm the only one who actually knows about this, so I need to do something about it." She did attempt to, in vain, solicit Celestia for help initially.

Still though, the way you worded your post made me think about it in a slightly different angle! Maybe it was some mix of both! <3

[Pentium100 2,057]

26 minutes ago, PsychicKid said:

As an example, if Celestia order Twilight to strike down one of her friends as part of a loyalty test, I guarantee you she would refuse, or find some other way to circumvent the situation (ala Kobayashi Maru).

The internal meltdown would be really interesting to watch. I think that Twilight would persuade herself that Celestia is testing her and that "no" is the correct answer or that Celestia is an imposter and would start looking for the real one.

However, I wonder what would happen if Celestia told Twilight that, say, Applejack is a disguised Chrysalis and that she is about to do something really destructive. I do not think that Twilight would try to confirm this. 

27 minutes ago, PsychicKid said:

Twilight's motivation for stopping Nightmare Moon is "I'm the only one who can do this because I'm the only one powerful enough to do it

There's some bad guy about to detonate a nuke, he really needs a new hole in his head, but I am the only one who has a gun. Not only that, I am the only one who knows how to use said gun, so it's either try to shoot him (and maybe get shot) or do nothing and explode.

[PsychicKid 6]

7 minutes ago, Pentium100 said:

The internal meltdown would be really interesting to watch. I think that Twilight would persuade herself that Celestia is testing her and that "no" is the correct answer or that Celestia is an imposter and would start looking for the real one.

However, I wonder what would happen if Celestia told Twilight that, say, Applejack is a disguised Chrysalis and that she is about to do something really destructive. I do not think that Twilight would try to confirm this. 

There's some bad guy about to detonate a nuke, he really needs a new hole in his head, but I am the only one who has a gun. Not only that, I am the only one who knows how to use said gun, so it's either try to shoot him (and maybe get shot) or do nothing and explode.

Heh! That's valid. Your Chrysalis example made me think of Hard Reset, having recently read it.

Unfortunately, work is calling me, so my replies will likely be sporadic, if I'm even able to. Have a good day, I enjoyed our discussion!

[nightshroud96 116]

1 hour ago, Pentium100 said:

The internal meltdown would be really interesting to watch. I think that Twilight would persuade herself that Celestia is testing her and that "no" is the correct answer or that Celestia is an imposter and would start looking for the real one.

However, I wonder what would happen if Celestia told Twilight that, say, Applejack is a disguised Chrysalis and that she is about to do something really destructive. I do not think that Twilight would try to confirm this. 

There's some bad guy about to detonate a nuke, he really needs a new hole in his head, but I am the only one who has a gun. Not only that, I am the only one who knows how to use said gun, so it's either try to shoot him (and maybe get shot) or do nothing and explode.

Would be interesting if there was a villain that twists things around and causes the conflict between Twilight and Celestia.
(no, not Discord but more of a manipulative villain from the darkness that just sits back and crazily laughs at how he/she caused others to turn against each other and causes conflict. A villain that twists things around when needed and knows what to say that incites the darkness within one's heart)

[Pentium100 2,057]

12 minutes ago, nightshroud96 said:

Would be interesting if there was a villain that twists things around and causes the conflict between Twilight and Celestia.

It would probably be very difficult to do that. I mean Twilight would do pretty much anything for Celestia and her greatest fear is disappointing her (as shown by Sombra's magic), so, if the villain made it look like Celestia hates Twilight, she probably would just kill herself for being a failure (or, well, whatever is appropriate for a family TV show). 

[nightshroud96 116]

14 minutes ago, Pentium100 said:

It would probably be very difficult to do that. I mean Twilight would do pretty much anything for Celestia and her greatest fear is disappointing her (as shown by Sombra's magic), so, if the villain made it look like Celestia hates Twilight, she probably would just kill herself for being a failure (or, well, whatever is appropriate for a family TV show). 

Or she snaps and major disaster happens.
Depends on how said villain pushes her and such.

[Stardust Live 43]

That would really, really depend on the way it's done.

I liked Lesson Zero, it perfectly shows catastrophising, something that anything with anxiety will be closely familiar with, and the reactions of her friends were very realisitc as well. It was one of the best possible shows for Spike as well, being calm and direct and not entertaining her wild thoughts. She was genuinely terrified when Celestia was angry at her (really, the way she said 'TWILIGHT SPARKLE!' would  put the fear in anyone). But at this point, Twilight has been through so much, she would automatically assume that Celestia being mad at her for most reasons would be the work of an illusion or trick before thinking it was a genuine thing.

The only thing that would turn that hero worship would be if Celestia were deeply angry and disappointed that Twilight failed in something or overreacted to something, akin to Lesson Zero. Twilight would mentally break down, but there might be a way in which to turn it into a clash of ideals, something that Celestia says should have been done one way but Twilight did another, and Twilight refuses to back down on her way as being best. She's been shown to be bullheaded when she thinks she's right, and there will be a sweet spot where that stubbornness would overrule her worship of Celestia, especially if we go with S9's kinda-cringy narrative that the Princesses are 'useless'.

It's a good point that Celestia never asked Twilight if she wanted to be a Princess. She never asked if she wanted to be an alicorn, I honestly thought Twilight would become a unicorn princess, and it would fit if they had kept Cadance a pegasus Princess rather than make her an alicorn too. Twilight's thing is magic, and even when groomed for leadership, she seems most content at studying and being on her own with some social gatherings. It just comes across as Celestia pushing Twilight, but not in a 'get her out of her comfort zone' way, more in a 'I need you to grow this way to become my heir'

[Pentium100 2,057]

35 minutes ago, Stardust Live said:

It just comes across as Celestia pushing Twilight, but not in a 'get her out of her comfort zone' way, more in a 'I need you to grow this way to become my heir'

This. And Twilight is so concerned with disappointing Celestia that she would do anything to avoid that, even if she hated whatever task Celestia gave her. I really do not think that Twilight ever wanted to be a high-ranking politician, dealing with lots of ponies and other races, negotiating trade deals with very little time to read books.

[ExplosionMare 18,007]

You’re right in that Twilight believes she has to be the best at all times. Just look at what she did when she thought she was gonna fail ONE assignment!

[nightshroud96 116]

12 minutes ago, ExplosionMare said:

You’re right in that Twilight believes she has to be the best at all times. Just look at what she did when she thought she was gonna fail ONE assignment!

Imagine if something goes wrong while she was ruling.
Or if some major crisis happens while she's ruler and she ends up getting taken out(which sadly happens to the royal sisters when they were ruling..)

[Stardust Live 43]

That's a critical point. Neither her parents nor Celestia have really taught Twilight how to deal with 'failing' or not being the best. Twilight becomes hysterical at the idea of missing a test, failing something or just simply not 'winning' in academic terms (the trivia contest, for example) and seems even offended when other ponies are more knowledgable than her (Sunburst, Starlight at times). Her parents have encouraged super-unhealthy behaviour, and Celestia has not made that better

[Pentium100 2,057]

46 minutes ago, Stardust Live said:

Twilight becomes hysterical at the idea of missing a test, failing something or just simply not 'winning' in academic terms

Yeah and ultimately she got stuck with a job where no matter what she does, some ponies will dislike or even hate her decisions and maybe even her.

[nightshroud96 116]

5 minutes ago, Pentium100 said:

Yeah and ultimately she got stuck with a job where no matter what she does, some ponies will dislike or even hate her decisions and maybe even her.

Its kind of a wasted opportunity on what if some ponies did not like the fact the royal sisters were retiring. Especially for Luna's case since she only ruled for a few years or so since she got back from the moon.
Its pretty iffy that not a single pony is not bothered by this.
With how things went for the sisters on essentially their last day as rulers(as in pretty badly) and its because of Discord's iffy plan, I can just see issues arising.