This Episode is Terrible!........ Why it isn't. Luna Eclipsed.

[Anadu Kune 668]

You know it seems weird that a lot of fan favorite episodes have much clearer criticisms.  I was planning an examination of Owls Well or Putting your hoof down, however I dont have enough to work with. Really the complaints from putting your hoof down amounted to really one or two scenes. The only reason I write this is because I dont want there to be confusion as to why the episodes I have focused on tend to be liked by the majority. 

 

Oh and to clarify, I am NOT, I repeat NOT trying to convert anyone over to my opinion. I do not wite these out of anger. I only write this because at least one person seemed to think so. I do this for fun. I examine criticsm of the episodes to see if they warrant calling an episode lacking in quality.

 

 

How could there be a holiday based off Nightmare Moon when they didnt know who she was in the first episode. 

Actually when Twilight revealed her name the audience reacted with a shocked gasp or shocked realization. You dont react with a gasp of shock if you have never heard a name before. It would be more appropriate to react with startled mumbling or chatter. It is clear that they didn't recognize her by sight. Heres how I see it. Imagine your at a similar event and a old bearded man in a robe appears on stage in a similar fashion to nightmare moon. Would you immediately recognize him as Merlin? One thing is made clear by this episode. Nightmare moon was a legend. The only visual representation they had seen would be in books and of statues. Would you recognize Augustus Caesar by sight? or Hercules? How about Odysseus? These are legendary figures with illustrated images and statues. I am very familar with all three I mentioned and Im not sure I could point them out with certainty.

 

Hey Rainbow didn't know about her at all. 

Well rainbows statement was pretty vague let me quote. "How did you know about Nightmare Moon?". In asking this question doesn't necessarily indicate she had never heard the legend. She is most likely talking about the situation at large. It would seem strange to other ponies that Twilight could say such things with absolute conviction.

 

Also as we know Rainbow doesn't really read that much at this point so, she probably would be a bit ignorant.

 

Nightmare moon didnt talk in the royal we. On that note Why didn't Celestia teach her to talk right?

I think there is a key line here. Luna says "it is tradition to use the Royal we and use this much volume when addressing our subjects" It would suggest that this was mainly a thing use for her subjects out of "tradition". Nightmare moon didn't care about tradition and she held ire toward her subjects. Though the Thous  might still be a gap.

 

On the topic of celestia we dont know how much time has past since the season 1 opener. I think it would stand to reason that Luna didn't speak as such to her sister, only to her subjects as the relationship between sisters is more personal. There is also the point of how crazy busy both Celestia and Luna must be. 

 

Why are they all scared of Luna when they saw her change back.

Well it has been established that the other five ponies are more prone to superstition. Having a pony that has been a part of that superstition and fear for 1000 years is likely to inspire some fear. It is also seems reasonable to think that there would be a lingering fear just considering what they saw her try to do as nightmare moon. Having a celebration and seeing a reunion might not be enough to get rid of that lingering fear/apprehension. It should be noted though that most of the main six(minus fluttershy) where pretty quick to get over that fear or never had it to begin with(Twilight, Rainbow Dash, Pinkie Pie). 

 

Lunas appearance change makes no sense.

An explanation is never truly offered for the change, so we really cant say if it does or does not. However it does make some sense to me. Why would Celestia have the wavy mane but not luna? If anything her new appearance seems more consistent with her title Princess of the night. It is also consistent with Celestia's appearance and really seem to link the two even more from a visual standpoint.

 

Pinkie Pie was really insensitive and purposely hurting Luna's feelings.

I dont see that as being the case at all. For the most part Pinkie barley got to see Luna's reactions as she ran away. Lets also not forget that Pinkie can sometimes have a hard time noticing other ponies emotional states. A good example of this is Griffon the Brush Off where pinkie is completly oblivious to Rainbow's annoyance  In Party of one she spends a decent amount of time not notice obvious lies. Pinkie was fooling around. She got caught up in the spirit of fun, which she is known to do even in dire situations(return of harmony). 

 

Standing criticisms

I dont have too many problems with this episode, but here is a few. Some of Lunas speech may not be able to be reconciled(thous ect) I found luna not understanding what fun was a little bit too much(even if amusing). Rainbow was under used I felt,I think there might have been an interesting interaction that wasn't utilized. The pacing felt a tiny bit off to me I cant really pin poinyt why but maybe its just me. 

 

In the end Luna Eclipsed remains one of my favorites and a lot of the criticisms leveled at it seem to be based on partial speculation rather than focusing on the episode as it is.

 

 

[Alex Kennedy 1,228]

Luna eclipsed is one of my favorite episodes and I'm not sure why people would hate it. 

 

I really enjoy reading these by the way. Keep up the good work.

[Anadu Kune 668]

Luna eclipsed is one of my favorite episodes and I'm not sure why people would hate it. 

 

I really enjoy reading these by the way. Keep up the good work.

Thank you. Pretty much every episode has these type of complaints and the popular ones seem to be the easiest to find them on. Boast busters is one that's on my list. Ive been also debating doing videos, but I would need to find the time.

[Pumpkinbot 69]

Actually, in real life, the word "fun" literally did not exist 300 years ago, let alone a thousand. Luna's "What is this 'fun' thou speakest of?" line might be her not knowing it's definition, rather than never actually experiencing fun before. So she knows what fun is, she's just new to the word associated with it, hence, "The fun has been doubled!" She means to say she's having much more fun, but she doesn't know you can't measure fun numerically.

[Anadu Kune 668]

Actually, in real life, the word "fun" literally did not exist 300 years ago, let alone a thousand. Luna's "What is this 'fun' thou speakest of?" line might be her not knowing it's definition, rather than never actually experiencing fun before. So she knows what fun is, she's just new to the word associated with it, hence, "The fun has been doubled!" She means to say she's having much more fun, but she doesn't know you can't measure fun numerically.

Wow I did not know that. that is truly interesting. I guess that does negate one of my problems with the episode. Guess you learn something new everyday.

[Pumpkinbot 69]

Wow I did not know that. that is truly interesting. I guess that does negate one of my problems with the episode. Guess you learn something new everyday.

Which also goes to show that if that's truly intended on the creator's part, they really do their homework. If not, well...it helps satisfy my headcanon.

[Champion RD92 8,658]

Why is that all the episodes you are making these threads about are like the best episodes???

 

I love Luna Eclipsed, and it made me like Luna a lot more too.

[Descant 1,898]

I, for one, think it makes sense that not everypony remembers why Nightmare Night is celebrated. It must have changed in purpose, corrupted and morphed over the thousand years Luna was imprisoned, much like our holidays of Christmas, Halloween and Easter have. After all, I'm pretty sure that Christmas was originally sometime in July, and people who were celebrating it a thousand and a half years ago would have no idea why we used Christmas trees, or left out cookies for a jolly old guy clad in red. Halloween, no one remembers it's original purpose. Halloween was originally All Hallow's Eve, which was originally a two-day festivity, followed by All Hallow's Day, celebrating the various Saints. Easter... Coloured eggs with candy in them. 'Nuff said. Since our holidays have shifted in purposes over thousands of years, why is it ridiculous to think that pony holidays would too?

Edited December 21, 2012 by Descant

[Dusty Soul 2,611]

Luna Eclipsed is one of my favorite episodes.  It's got a great story, and was the return of the best princess.  I loved it all, though Pinkie got friggen annoying after a while.

[Anadu Kune 668]

Why is that all the episodes you are making these threads about are like the best episodes???

 

I love Luna Eclipsed, and it made me like Luna a lot more too.

As I wrote in the post  it seems some of the more popular episodes have the most clear complaints. I wanted to do Putting your hoof down, but there were not as many clear complaints. Really only one or two scenes and some open arguments on the moral, which is weird to me as many people seem to think putting your hoof down is a wretched episode.  The same is the case for Owls Well That Ends Well, and Dragon Quest, To be honest I kinda want to do something more on Cystal Empire people beat up on that episode for really one reason, the villian. They seem to actively ignore all the underlying themes and awesomeness the episode has to offer.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Anadu Kune

[Bright Honor 2,683]

Luna Eclipsed is one of my favorite Episodes. I loved it so much. I truthfully don't see why people would hate it but that is just me I guess.

[Megas 27,742]

People hated Luna Eclipsed? I thought it was one of season 2's most beloved episodes? Did, like, the fandom's standards change or something?

Edited December 22, 2012 by Megas75

[Radiance64 7,053]

Why is that all the episodes you are making these threads about are like the best episodes???

 

I love Luna Eclipsed, and it made me like Luna a lot more too.

Yeah this. Luna Eclipsed was just fine to me, but I would like to see threads like this for episodes I wasn't particularly fond of, like It's About Time, The Mysterious Mare Do Well, Hearts and Hooves Day, and maybe even Too Many Pinkie Pies, now those would raise some disagreement out of me for sure.

[Veylon 255]

I'm kind of confused here, too. I always thought Luna Eclipsed was a fan favorite.

 

Most of the plot holes (like plot holes anywhere) can be plugged with audience imagination. I mean, I can see Luna getting speech lessons, but then dumping them aside in her eagerness to take on her Princessly role. Not unrelated would be her desire to, upon hearing about Nightmare Night, rush off to "fix" things via royal proclamation.

 

Luna's speech, well...technically in Early Modern English, thee and thou are the personal forms of you, not the formal ones. Queen Elizabeth would use "you" to everyone except very close friends. It'd be a special honor. Besides which, even that is the English that existed five hundred years ago, not a thousand. Thousand year old English (or Middle English) is another language entirely and would sound something like Welsh.

 

But really, everything in this show is nitpickable if you want. I generally only complain when there's structural things wrong with the plot, character issues, or thematic problems.

[duidamasterXD 9,627]

I for one loved this episode and I've often used the defenses that you've given here so points to you. Incidentally, which other episodes are you planning to do in the future? Most of the episodes that you haven't covered that have been met with bad reception (Hearts and Hooves Day, Owl's Well That Ends Well, etc) aren't disliked for nitpicky reasons, rather mostly just because they were just subjectively less enjoyable to many people. I guess you could do It's About Time, and I'd like to see that since it is really one of my favorite episodes.

You could also cover Mare Do Well and unleash the seeds of butthurt and controversy upon the forum Whatever you do in the future, this was a good entry and thank you for it.

[One 498]

I'm kind of confused here, too. I always thought Luna Eclipsed was a fan favorite.

 

Most of the plot holes (like plot holes anywhere) can be plugged with audience imagination. I mean, I can see Luna getting speech lessons, but then dumping them aside in her eagerness to take on her Princessly role. Not unrelated would be her desire to, upon hearing about Nightmare Night, rush off to "fix" things via royal proclamation.

 

Luna's speech, well...technically in Early Modern English, thee and thou are the personal forms of you, not the formal ones. Queen Elizabeth would use "you" to everyone except very close friends. It'd be a special honor. Besides which, even that is the English that existed five hundred years ago, not a thousand. Thousand year old English (or Middle English) is another language entirely and would sound something like Welsh.

 

But really, everything in this show is nitpickable if you want. I generally only complain when there's structural things wrong with the plot, character issues, or thematic problems.

^ this ^

 

There isn't really anything wrong with the plot unless if you pick it apart piece by piece and over analyze it. Which if you do that to every episode you could find something wrong with it.

[Veylon 255]

There isn't really anything wrong with the plot unless if you pick it apart piece by piece and over analyze it. Which if you do that to every episode you could find something wrong with it.

It's a matter of charitability. If you like something, you're more likely to overlook inconvenient problems or are willing to fix them yourself. If you don't, you go looking for problems. In both cases, it's to prove to others (and yourself) that your opinions reflect objective reality and that you have "good taste".

 

I'm very curious to see how Anadu defends the Crystal Kingdom two-parter. That had the overlapping plot hole problem (shared by the Phantom Menace) where the validity of each section of the plot depended on other sections being not valid in a messy web of contradictions. It makes the whole weirdly resistant to criticism because there's no real feel for what's "right" that the "wrong" parts can be judged against.

[One 498]

It's a matter of charitability. If you like something, you're more likely to overlook inconvenient problems or are willing to fix them yourself. If you don't, you go looking for problems. In both cases, it's to prove to others (and yourself) that your opinions reflect objective reality and that you have "good taste".

 

I'm very curious to see how Anadu defends the Crystal Kingdom two-parter. That had the overlapping plot hole problem (shared by the Phantom Menace) where the validity of each section of the plot depended on other sections being not valid in a messy web of contradictions. It makes the whole weirdly resistant to criticism because there's no real feel for what's "right" that the "wrong" parts can be judged against.

That's kinda what I feel is with lots of the plots in season 3... It may just be some negitave prejudice that I have towards the newest season, or it just really is as bad as I think it is.

[Veylon 255]

That's kinda what I feel is with lots of the plots in season 3... It may just be some negitave prejudice that I have towards the newest season, or it just really is as bad as I think it is.

I really don't have much against the other episodes, it's just the Crystal Empire ones. The rest are just...episodes. None of them have been all that fantastic, but there's no Mare-do-Well's among them either. I've got complaints, sure, but they're fairly clear-cut and I don't have to use multi-branched conditional criticism in order to address them. I can just say "I don't like cars in Equestria" and that's about it.

[Anadu Kune 668]

It's a matter of charitability. If you like something, you're more likely to overlook inconvenient problems or are willing to fix them yourself. If you don't, you go looking for problems. In both cases, it's to prove to others (and yourself) that your opinions reflect objective reality and that you have "good taste".

 

I'm very curious to see how Anadu defends the Crystal Kingdom two-parter. That had the overlapping plot hole problem (shared by the Phantom Menace) where the validity of each section of the plot depended on other sections being not valid in a messy web of contradictions. It makes the whole weirdly resistant to criticism because there's no real feel for what's "right" that the "wrong" parts can be judged against.

Well this is the only episode I have done thats really in my top ten(maybe Canterlot Wedding?). For me its more a matter of seeing if the criticism stands as an episode shattering problem, or if they can be reconciled with info given within the episodes or relative show cannon. People tend to use the words plot hole pretty recklessly. "Cadence being an alicorn is a plot hole!!!" no... no it isnt you just dont like it(I dont care for it either). Im merely offering my perspective. As I have stated before Im not trying to sway people over to my opinions or fix problems I see in an episode. 

 

Overlapping plot hole problem? I would need a more in dept complaint on the matter as this is the first I have heard of that. Im not sure where a messy web of contradictions would be going over it in my head. Where are the contradictions. Oh and phantom menace had the problem where pretty much nothing in it worked at all. Im not seeing how it would be resistant to criticism. 

 

I did do a very, very short one on the Crystal Emipire. All anyone ever really seems to complain about is the villain.

 

http://mlpforums.com/topic/41940-this-episode-is-terrible-why-it-isnt-3-the-crystal-empire/

Edited December 22, 2012 by Anadu Kune

[TailsIsNotAlone 3,695]

This is getting strange. Who would say Luna Eclipsed is terrible? Like 5% of the fandom? And what's this all about? If you're suggesting that every single episode was good, and all the reasons we have for not liking some of them are invalid, that's not going to work. If the point is that everybody's view is different and you can find something to love or dislike in any episode, great, but I knew that already. We all do.

 

Luna Eclipsed wasn't good or bad for me, it was weird. Pinkie's behavior was irritating (and I rarely say that). Luna was too goofy and went through too many mood swings to identify with her as a character. I noticed Derpy, but only because she looked cute in paper bags. There.

[Anadu Kune 668]

This is getting strange. Who would say Luna Eclipsed is terrible? Like 5% of the fandom? And what's this all about? If you're suggesting that every single episode was good, and all the reasons we have for not liking some of them are invalid, that's not going to work. If the point is that everybody's view is different and you can find something to love or dislike in any episode, great, but I knew that already. We all do.

 

Luna Eclipsed wasn't good or bad for me, it was weird. Pinkie's behavior was irritating (and I rarely say that). Luna was too goofy and went through too many mood swings to identify with her as a character. I noticed Derpy, but only because she looked cute in paper bags. There.

Ive seen the complaints enough times on other forums and sites that I though it should be addressed. As I mentioned before I do think its weird that the more popular episodes seem to be the ones with the more clear cut complaints, with some exceptions (pinkie keen, Mare do well). Heck another episode I see a decent amount of complaints for is Boast busters and to me that seems to be a fan favorite as well. Lesson Zero is another one. Some episodes only tend to have one or two main complaints ( Wonderbolt acadamy)

 

The point of these is to show that the complaints are sometimes not enough to justify disparaging the episodes quality. If someone dislikes an episode for any of the reasons above then fine. However there is a difference between saying "I dislike this because" and "this is bad because". One is personal preference and the other is assuming lack of quality. I find that quite a few that complain tend to say the latter rather than the former. I am not claiming that all of the episodes are perfect, though I think most would agree that most of them are great fun. Heck even the episodes I cover I list my standing problems, which are subject to change and criticism as well as you can see an example of earlier in the very thread. 

Edited December 22, 2012 by Anadu Kune

[Veylon 255]

Overlapping plot hole problem? I would need a more in dept complaint on the matter as this is the first I have heard of that. Im not sure where a messy web of contradictions would be going over it in my head. Where are the contradictions. Oh and phantom menace had the problem where pretty much nothing in it worked at all. Im not seeing how it would be resistant to criticism

It goes something like this:

I can criticize Celestia describing the dangerous mission she's sending Twilight on as a test.

OR

I can't take Sombra seriously as a villainous threat because he's no more than a test for Twilight and Celestia in fact has everything under control.

 

Either of these criticisms could be valid but they can't both be valid at the same time. Many further things that are "wrong" in the episodes depend on one or the other of these scenarios to be correct, and thus fair game for criticism.

 

I'll grant that the Phantom Menace has much more stupid above and beyond the overlapping plot hole issue, where the Crystal Empire really doesn't.

[Anadu Kune 668]

It goes something like this:

I can criticize Celestia describing the dangerous mission she's sending Twilight on as a test.

OR

I can't take Sombra seriously as a villainous threat because he's no more than a test for Twilight and Celestia in fact has everything under control.

 

Either of these criticisms could be valid but they can't both be valid at the same time. Many further things that are "wrong" in the episodes depend on one or the other of these scenarios to be correct, and thus fair game for criticism.

 

I'll grant that the Phantom Menace has much more stupid above and beyond the overlapping plot hole issue, where the Crystal Empire really doesn't.

Oh that. Heres the way I think of it. At that point Twilight and her friends had saved the whole of Equestria no less than 3 times(though twilight was really the focus of Canterlot wedding). If Celestia cant trust her now she never will and its made obvious in the beginning of the episode that Celestia does indeed trust Twilight, stating it as a given that she will succeed. At the same time she wants to ascertain whether Twilight is ready for the next stage of training. She takes this opportunity to test her and is pretty certain she will succeed. This is not undermining the importance of the task or the danger as Celestia describes the scenario and its importance for all of Equestria from the start. It may be a test of sorts but that does not necessarily label it in a less important or less dangerous light. I seem to recall certain veterans saying that each battle was a test of ones strength and courage. Does that undermine the danger they were in or the importance of the task? 

 

As for how threatening Sombra is....lets see. He has the power to nullify the magical ability of other unicorns, completely removed an entire kingdom from the face of reality for 1000 years, whiped/blurred the memories of an entire race, and managed to enslave an entire race. I think those deeds alone would qualify someone as threatening. It would also seem that Celestia could not counter certain aspects of his magic. If she could I dont think she would have allowed for the Empire to be banished for 1000 years. This would seem to indicate that Celestia did not have everything in full control. She did however have 1000 years to make a contingency plan for this similar to what she did with nightmare moon. 

 

Those are just my quick thoughts on the matter as of now....i guess.  

[Veylon 255]

We're wrangling over the definition of test here. It's true enough that any challenging experience is a "test" of one's abilities in a broad sense. But when Celestia summons Twilight, it's clear that Twilight expected a much stricter form of a test; a challenge administered by her mentor to gauge her skills in a controlled environment. The classic definition of test. The purpose of a good test to remove doubt pertaining the qualities of the subject. It only makes sense for Celestia to give Twilight a test if she wasn't sure about her.

 

By contrast, a good mission is one where there are no doubts about the outcome. A plan is made out so that the goal is accomplished with as near-perfect certitude as possible. If Equestria is in danger, Celestia should be throwing whatever it takes into eliminating that danger. It's her self-imposed duty as a monarch to leave no possibility of failure. To do otherwise would be careless. If the fate of her nation depends on keeping Sombra's greedy hooves off the Crystal Empire we should expect her to take every measure to stop him.

 

And so I'm back to trying to judge this as a test or as a mission. If it's a test, I'm very confused as to what exactly Twilight was being tested on. Her willingness to ignore Celestia's instructions when inconvenient? Her riddle-solving abilities? What? If it's a mission, then we've got to ask why Celestia would tell her that "this is something only you can do" when that statement could only possibly increase the chances of failure, which would (allegedly) be catastrophic for Equestria. It also begs the question of why Celestia didn't do any of a dozen or so things that would have lessened the chances of failure, such as sending more than one soldier or even letting the Mane Six bring the Elements of Harmony.