3 questions about Luna, Nightmare Moon, and Nightmare night

[Never2muchpinkie 211]

1. How did Nightmare Moon go from BRINGER OF ETERNAL DARKNESS...to a stealer of candy? Furthermore, how come there are 2 legends of NMM? No one seems to know who NMM is during the pilot episode as the bringer of darkness, but everyone knows of the NMM who won't eat you if you give her candy, despite the fact that there's a statue of NMM sitting around in a garden somewhere.

 

2. Why does Celestia allow Nightmare Night anyway? As Luna herself noted, it's a bit insulting. Granted, it turns her actions from trying to cause eternal night to just a harmless taker of candy, but the fact is that both versions paint Luna as evil, something which Celestia isn't likely to allow, given that she didn't want to attack her sister in the first place. Given that Luna knows of the celebration in the first place means Celestia MUST know of it too.

 

3. While Luna Eclipsed is one of my all time favorite MLP episodes, we have to wonder why Luna behaved the way she did. While the episodes can usually be in any order given they're usually self-contained stories, did Celestia nor Luna think to discuss with each other what has changed over 1000 years? Now, we could give the common Trollestia answer:

 

 

Its perfectly understandable for her to be socially awkward, given that she believes she has never been loved by her subjects and she didn't get much chance to interact with them given that they slept while she was awake, but why was Luna still using the Royal Canterlot Voice?

[Harmonic Revelations 8,837]

1. How did Nightmare Moon go from BRINGER OF ETERNAL DARKNESS...to a stealer of candy? Furthermore, how come there are 2 legends of NMM? No one seems to know who NMM is during the pilot episode as the bringer of darkness, but everyone knows of the NMM who won't eat you if you give her candy, despite the fact that there's a statue of NMM sitting around in a garden somewhere.

 

2. Why does Celestia allow Nightmare Night anyway? As Luna herself noted, it's a bit insulting. Granted, it turns her actions from trying to cause eternal night to just a harmless taker of candy, but the fact is that both versions paint Luna as evil, something which Celestia isn't likely to allow, given that she didn't want to attack her sister in the first place. Given that Luna knows of the celebration in the first place means Celestia MUST know of it too.

 

3. While Luna Eclipsed is one of my all time favorite MLP episodes, we have to wonder why Luna behaved the way she did. While the episodes can usually be in any order given they're usually self-contained stories, did Celestia nor Luna think to discuss with each other what has changed over 1000 years? Now, we could give the common Trollestia answer:

 

mlp_fim_luna_eclipsed_by_stell_e-d5nkyzh.jpg

 

Its perfectly understandable for her to be socially awkward, given that she believes she has never been loved by her subjects and she didn't get much chance to interact with them given that they slept while she was awake, but why was Luna still using the Royal Canterlot Voice?

1.)

 

They don't "know her" in a way that she steals candy. In the same way that people don't "know" black magic as a fun game to play on Halloween. They do it for fun, not out of genuine belief. In the show it's a myth for children. An example of something similar for humans would be the "Bloody Mary" game that children sometimes play at sleepovers.

 

2.)

 

Because there would be political backlash if she didn't allow it. It's tradition among the ponies. If it's been going on since Luna was banished, that's a 1,000 year tradition, which isn't something the ponies would give up willingly.

 

3.)

 

Much like what she did with Twilight Sparkle, Celestia probably thought it would be better if Luna learned first hand about what kind of society the ponies have going on. Experience is worth more than any lengthy discussion about the matter could be.

 

Luna gets to learn a much more valuable lesson from seeing how things have changed for herself.

 

_______

 

 

That's my input on things.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Harmonic Revelations

[Malinter 3,064]

1/ it has been 1000 years. The story probably started changing little by little over the centuries until we got the nightmare night version.

The same could be said of Discord, lord of chaos, all the ponies know of him is a statue in the canterlot gardens. 

 

2/It might be insulting but its also damage mitigation. Celestia could quite easily of made it a decree that they teach the true history of NMM, but by making her into the nightmare night verison doubles both to vanish her darker personal from the collective memory of the ponies and yet  still remember her in some sense. Ofcourse NMM kind of 'reminded' ponyville of her in the pilot episode which is way there now scared shiteless of her in that episode.

 

3/ its quite possible that Luna came to ponyville without asking Celestia first. She's a big girl now and the night is her domain. 

[Never2muchpinkie 211]

2.)

 

Because there would be political backlash if she didn't allow it. It's tradition among the ponies. If it's been going on since Luna was banished, that's a 1,000 year tradition, which isn't something the ponies would give up willingly.

Well it certainly wasn't around for a 1000 years without Celestia knowing about it. After a 1000 year tradition of Halloween kids would get upset if all of a sudden it was cancelled, sure, but what if it was stopped after the first 3 years? I'm asking how has it gone on so long without Celestia putting a stop to it before it became such a hit?

Edited October 25, 2013 by Never2muchpinkie

[Harmonic Revelations 8,837]

Well it certainly wasn't around for a 1000 years without Celestia knowing about it. After a 1000 year tradition of Halloween kids would get upset if all of a sudden it was cancelled, sure, but what if it was stopped after the first 3 years? I'm asking how has it gone on so long without Celestia putting a stop to it before it became such a hit?

As we've seen throughout the show, it is not Celestia's way of things to directly intervene. I'd guess she doesn't really concern herself with such trivial matters as holidays.

[Feather Gem 967]

1) Because it's easier than telling your foals that there's a pony out there who wants to make sure the sun never rises again.  Legends change over time.  I guess after a thousand years, like I said above, concerned parents just toned it down to stealing candy.

But to why they didn't know her, I'm not so sure.  It is just a legend to them after all.  A fun activity for their foals.  They didn't expect NMM to actually appear.

 

2) Celestia seems quite down to earth for a princess.  Maybe she thought it would be fun and that Luna would enjoy it, maybe even find it amusing.  She can't really deny her subjects a harmless celebration for foals.

 

3) Celestia hadn't a sister for 1000 years.  After Luna came back, they probably spoke a bit, hugged fifty times and then just didn't know what else to say.  Celestia didn't think to tell Luna about something that she'd been doing for years.  She may have been too caught up in apologizes and lost time together to think to tell her.

1000 years is a long time.  I'm sure Celestia tried to tell her about the current behavior of the ponies.  It would be easy for something as simple as how you talk to slip for mind. 

 

You know...imo

[Fhaolan 4,494]

I put my own opinion on this here: http://mlpforums.com/blog/844/entry-7104-dues-ex-luna/

 

In summary, I think that Celestia over a thousand years very deliberately fragmented Luna's story into several different, distinct characters in an effort to disconnect her sister from the 'monster' she became before her exile. So that when she returned, and was hopefully cured of the Nightmare disorder, Luna could pick up her life free of the Nightmare Moon legend. Nightmare Night was Celestia's attempt build a mythology around Nightmare Moon as a completely distinct entity from Princess Luna.

 

As always seems the case, Celestia has a bit of a blind spot about her sister, and didn't expect Luna to embrace Nightmare Night as she did. In a way totally ruining all the work Celestia put into breaking Luna's legends up.

 

I've been wondering if Celestia makes a habit of using holidays to attempt some social engineering. Hearts and Hooves Day and Hearth's Warming Eve also have some suspicious little bits that imply some celestial hoof-marks on them.

[Never2muchpinkie 211]

I've been wondering if Celestia makes a habit of using holidays to attempt some social engineering. Hearts and Hooves Day and Hearth's Warming Eve also have some suspicious little bits that imply some celestial hoof-marks on them.

I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that a little more. Hearths warming eve is about the creation of equestria, so I can see her manipulating some history, but where do you see that in hearts and hooves day?

2) Celestia seems quite down to earth for a princess.  Maybe she thought it would be fun and that Luna would enjoy it, maybe even find it amusing.  She can't really deny her subjects a harmless celebration for foals.

 

I'd think that it would be a sore spot for Celestia, given that she was the one who banished her sister in the first place, to having a holiday dedicated to her sisters evil alter-ego.  And while Luna did eventually blend in better, I was referring to the time before Luna was released,

[Scootalove 10,692]

1. Her origin story can change over time, into different legends because since they know little about her due to the fact of her banishment for 1000 years.

 

2. Since, Celestia is more down to earth than Luna she feels that a holiday like Nightmare Night could probably allow her sister to get to know her subjects.

 

3. Luna probably acted like that in Luna Eclipsed, because she didn't get the chance to know about what her subjects do until this episode. Luna was using the Canterlot voice, to sound more demanding or maybe it's because she isn't used to the method of communication with a low tone in her voice.

[Never2muchpinkie 211]

1. Her origin story can change over time, into different legends because since they know little about her due to the fact of her banishment for 1000 years.

 

2. Since, Celestia is more down to earth than Luna she feels that a holiday like Nightmare Night could probably allow her sister to get to know her subjects.

 

3. Luna probably acted like that in Luna Eclipsed, because she didn't get the chance to know about what her subjects do until this episode. Luna was using the Canterlot voice, to sound more demanding or maybe it's because she isn't used to the method of communication with a low tone in her voice.

My problem with number 2 is exactly what I said to another user. Luna had only been released and REFORMED INTO GOOD less than a YEAR. For Celestia to think that means she had to have been thinking like 500 years in advance that her sister was going to escape from captivity and be reformed, and also to think that Luna would find it all amusing if she was reformed. I don't buy that. Maybe AFTER her sister was purified she might have gone in that train of thought, but I mean what about the years shortly after it began, like maybe the first hundred years of NMN? Being that Celestia was the one who banished her sister in the first place, wouldn't you think it would be a sore spot to see Equestria make a holiday out of her sisters evil alter-ego?

[Scootalove 10,692]

My problem with number 2 is exactly what I said to another user. Luna had only been released and REFORMED INTO GOOD less than a YEAR. For Celestia to think that means she had to have been thinking like 500 years in advance that her sister was going to escape from captivity and be reformed, and also to think that Luna would find it all amusing if she was reformed. I don't buy that. Maybe AFTER her sister was purified she might have gone in that train of thought, but I mean what about the years shortly after it began, like maybe the first hundred years of NMN? Being that Celestia was the one who banished her sister in the first place, wouldn't you think it would be a sore spot to see Equestria make a holiday out of her sisters evil alter-ego?

At the time, not really. But, years after she banished her sister to the inside of the moon I can agree with that. Celestia isn't exactly the one who would hold a grudge that has been going on for thousands of years, if the grudge has already been resolved. There will come a time where Celestia has to banish her again, but it would not be needed in Luna Eclipsed. Besides, even though it's a holiday named after Luna's evil alter-ego, Celestia does not need to worry about a trivial matter.

[pinkiefan1287 610]

I'm going to answer number 2 first than give my input on number 1.

 

2. Celestia most likely developed the holiday as away to show ponies that the night can be fun. But, it might have backfired on her a little and some may have seen it as away to keep NMM from attacking them or to word them off. Celestia might have wanted to cancel the event, but seeing as they were enjoying the night, like Luna wanted, she let it go and let them do what they wanted.

 

1. Like I said in number 2, most likely it was just another way ponies thought would keep her away. Like scarifies a goat on something to make the gods happy. 

 

3. Well Luna was sealed away for a thousand years. It could be Celestia just never got around to telling her that or it could be just one of her hard habits to break. Celestia has had many years to get that out of her system, while Luna has not.

[Fhaolan 4,494]

I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that a little more. Hearths warming eve is about the creation of equestria, so I can see her manipulating some history, but where do you see that in hearts and hooves day?

 

 

This is more me seeing things that aren't there, to be honest. It's one of the things I do, which is why I have that silly blog.

 

The big thing is, Celestia has been alive and active for that thousand years. Even by simply existing for that long, she modifies the development of the pony culture. And she apparently edits the history books to her liking. Otherwise how could the Element of Magic of been such a mystery? All anyone had to do to find out what the sixth element was, is ask Celestia. Any question about anything that happened over the last thousand years or more she can answer. Why would she hide that information? Once she's started doing that kind of thing, it's not unreasonable to wonder what else she's been doing over a thousand years and why.

 

For Hearth's Warming Eve, the mention of the Unicorn tribe controlling the sun and moon, but no reference to Celestia or Luna is suspicious. Over a thousand years of Celestia's reign, a constant and functionally immortal presence in all ponydom's lives for untold generations, and she doesn't even get a footnote reference in a historical play, say from the opening narration as it being 'before Celestia'? Especially with the conflicting 'creation of Equestria' story that opens the series in the first place. This feels unlikely unless she's made an issue out of it and has specifically requested to not be mentioned in the play. Or the play is actually completely fictional, and not historical at all. If it supposed to be a historical event, Twilight is way too OCD about historical accuracy (her Starswirl the Bearded costume, for example) to not question the modern Celestia/Luna banners used at the end of the play. Especially since she specifically mentions that the character she's portraying is supposedly the student of Starswirl himself, one of Twilight's special subjects of knowledge that she bangs on about whenever she can. So Twilight believes this story is sufficiently accurate to not throw a fit over. Something odd's going on there. If Celestia did modify this story (big if), long enough ago that Twilight is unaware of the modifications, she's got something in mind and I can't quite put my finger on what her goal is.

 

For Hearts and Hooves Day it's even more vague than that, unfortunately, and I think it's just my personal paranoia showing up. A mysterious unnamed alicorn princess in a storybook that supposedly represents love, later followed by an actual physical Alicorn of Love, but no connection between them made? The apparently obvious discrepancy between the numbers of stallions and mares, yet a holiday promoting one-on-one romantic relationships where single mares, who outnumber stallions, are treated as objects of pity. A gender discrepancy that is actually addressed in prior MLP series as being due to an extreme form of gender segregation where the two genders only meet once a year? Then that MLP:FiM cultural features mapping vaguely to real-life ones, you could consider the actual origin of the real-life Valentine's day as a manufactured 18th century holiday blending a 14th century Christian, completely non-romantic, feast with an ancient Roman fertility festival. Blend that all together and you get awfully suspicious about Hearts and Hooves Day being an attempt at social engineering; moving ponies from the heavily segregated society to one of nuclear families. If I was being *really* paranoid, possibly in order to balance the loss of the Crystal Heart.

 

 

I wish I was better at writing fan-fiction. I have so many ideas, but my prose is awful.

[Never2muchpinkie 211]

This is more me seeing things that aren't there, to be honest. It's one of the things I do, which is why I have that silly blog.

 

The big thing is, Celestia has been alive and active for that thousand years. Even by simply existing for that long, she modifies the development of the pony culture. And she apparently edits the history books to her liking. Otherwise how could the Element of Magic of been such a mystery? All anyone had to do to find out what the sixth element was, is ask Celestia. Any question about anything that happened over the last thousand years or more she can answer. Why would she hide that information? Once she's started doing that kind of thing, it's not unreasonable to wonder what else she's been doing over a thousand years and why.

 

For Hearth's Warming Eve, the mention of the Unicorn tribe controlling the sun and moon, but no reference to Celestia or Luna is suspicious. Over a thousand years of Celestia's reign, a constant and functionally immortal presence in all ponydom's lives for untold generations, and she doesn't even get a footnote reference in a historical play, say from the opening narration as it being 'before Celestia'? Especially with the conflicting 'creation of Equestria' story that opens the series in the first place. This feels unlikely unless she's made an issue out of it and has specifically requested to not be mentioned in the play. Or the play is actually completely fictional, and not historical at all. If it supposed to be a historical event, Twilight is way too OCD about historical accuracy (her Starswirl the Bearded costume, for example) to not question the modern Celestia/Luna banners used at the end of the play. Especially since she specifically mentions that the character she's portraying is supposedly the student of Starswirl himself, one of Twilight's special subjects of knowledge that she bangs on about whenever she can. So Twilight believes this story is sufficiently accurate to not throw a fit over. Something odd's going on there. If Celestia did modify this story (big if), long enough ago that Twilight is unaware of the modifications, she's got something in mind and I can't quite put my finger on what her goal is.

 

For Hearts and Hooves Day it's even more vague than that, unfortunately, and I think it's just my personal paranoia showing up. A mysterious unnamed alicorn princess in a storybook that supposedly represents love, later followed by an actual physical Alicorn of Love, but no connection between them made? The apparently obvious discrepancy between the numbers of stallions and mares, yet a holiday promoting one-on-one romantic relationships where single mares, who outnumber stallions, are treated as objects of pity. A gender discrepancy that is actually addressed in prior MLP series as being due to an extreme form of gender segregation where the two genders only meet once a year? Then that MLP:FiM cultural features mapping vaguely to real-life ones, you could consider the actual origin of the real-life Valentine's day as a manufactured 18th century holiday blending a 14th century Christian, completely non-romantic, feast with an ancient Roman fertility festival. Blend that all together and you get awfully suspicious about Hearts and Hooves Day being an attempt at social engineering; moving ponies from the heavily segregated society to one of nuclear families. If I was being *really* paranoid, possibly in order to balance the loss of the Crystal Heart.

 

 

I wish I was better at writing fan-fiction. I have so many ideas, but my prose is awful.

Well, it's not that Mares outnumber stallions to such an extent. Really it just seems like from an outside perspective, it's a show for girls, thus why the majority of ponies we see are girls. If you take a look at Mr. Cake, the only time he shows up is when the setting goes to Sugarcube Corner, and thus where he's working. Big Mac usually shows up when he's working. It's a cop out, but maybe the guys just spend more time working than the women.

 

As for the Luna/Celestia flag, although this is a historical play, it's still being done in the present, so things may not be EXACTLY as they were back then. Thus, that flag is used simply because it's something all the ponies will easily be able to identify with as they've lived under the princesses rule all this time.