why do people act like mary sue would be the worst thing to happen to the show?

[hawkflame 3,315]

the point i'm making is if a mary sue had a likeable enough character,

 

Then they would not be a mary sue. 

 

The reason why people dislike Mary Sues is because they tend to be bland, boring, too perfect wish fulfillment type characters. 

 

And Mary Sues are generaly universally loved, in-story.  Discord is pretty much the opposite of that.

[DokiLoki 519]

Um, I don't get it. So you're saying that Discord is Mary Sue. Now, lemme get this straight. If you don't know what ''Mary Sue'' is than the definition is the fact that they are a character who is basically ''perfect'', ''flawless'' and doesn't even have any bad qualities about em'. This makes a fictional character plain and boring. 

In my opinion Discord has a wonderful personality and is my favourite antagonist overall. His chaoticness always makes me crack up and I think the crew of the show did a good job on designing this character.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Cherry Changa

[Noodles 109]

I found and online definition of a Mary Sue.

 

A Mary Sue is an unrealistic type of literary character  Although they vary, a typical Mary Sue has an unreasonable number of cool or special traits, especially ones the author wishes he or she had, and they tend to accomplish things too easily, solve problems too neatly, and become the center of attention whether they deserve it or not.

 

make of that what you will.

[FNGRpony 658]

Come again?

What exactly was "exactly your point"?

 

 

that people act like a mary sue happening to mlp is the worst thing ever,

when in fact a mary sue is one of the most likeable things on the show.

 

I can't dumb that down anymore than "you guys don't wanna attach that title to discord cause you like him"

 

I mean some fans were wiling to call twilight mary sue

but no one ever entertained the idea on discord,

"No fngr that's not possible!"

 

well no that's retarded that people could suggest twilight and not discord.

Um, I don't get it. So you're saying that Discord is Mary Sue. Now, lemme get this straight. If you don't know what ''Mary Sue'' is than the definition is the fact that they are a character who is basically ''perfect'', ''flawless'' and doesn't even have any bad qualities about em'. This makes a fictional character plain and boring. 

In my opinion Discord has a wonderful personality and is my favourite antagonist overall. His chaoticness always makes me crack up and I think the crew of the show did a good job on designing this character.

your first and second statement contradict each other. you totally understood.  you figured it out in the very next line.

And your asserting I don't know. 

Where as people are banding over back words to change the rules of mary sue so discord or anyone they like can't fit because the title is pure toxic and irredeemable

What posters are attempting to say "Because the character is likeable it's no a mary sue."

vs what i'm hearing

"Because i like that character I refuse to call him or her a mary sue..'"

 

I can give you a damn likeable perfect character everyone loved.

 

Heath ledgars joker.

Not the main one, but the one from the Nolan movie, that character was never that perfect.  he never had plans a,b,c,d,e, he never was able to be that well put together.

 

and everyone LOVED HIM.

 

I think you guys are hearing perfect and assuming it's some kind of perfect good.

I'm suggesting that perfection is the principles that character exemplifies.

Edited November 28, 2013 by FNGRpony

[Never2muchpinkie 211]

 

 

The completely useless character that can't do anything. We can all give thanks that no such character (cough Derpy) exists in mlp. (okay that was to far but that may well have been derp's character if she stuck around). Could you imagine if they spun spike like this? Oh God it would make snips and snails look like amazing tv. honestly if flutter shy wasn't so lovable she wouldn't be that far off.

 

Honestly I think your assumptions are very presumptuous. You can't define any character as useless, as each of them serve a purpose. Even background ponies who have no more than a fleeting shot of them have a purpose, as showing that the town has a population and is not only made up of the mane 6. Derpy is an amusing pony who's klutzy antics set off the events of The Last Roundup. Snips and Snails, through their stupidity in bringing an Ursa Minor to Ponyville, helped solve the conflict of the episode for Twilight.   So I don't think there is such a thing as a useless character. All of them are important in their own way, even if their contribution is small.

I'm afraid I don't know any series where the main character is supposed to royally suck and stay that way, outside of comedic ones, so I'm sure it's a bit more of a problem there, but you could always just not watch such a show then.

 

And to quote from that video: A true Mary Sue is someone who is so much more powerful than the forces around them that they no longer have any risk of being challenged by them. Without any challenge, there's no tension, and thus the conflict becomes pointless and uninteresting, and so does the character.     

 

  Discord's first loss was shown to have him planning ahead WHILE STILL PLAYING AROUND, dropping the seeds to kill the Tree of Harmony and thus have the vines take over Equestria without him. Up until that time he didn't know there WAS something that could defeat him, so at that point in time he could qualift as a Mary Sue.  The second time around he smartened up, immediately taking the EOH because he knew it could be used against him, then brainwashing the element holders before giving them the elements back. The elements were what stopped him from being a Mary Sue because now there WAS something that could challenge him, and his only mistake was that he didn't realize they had all gotten their minds back and thus could use the elements again. And his next appearance he was constantly dealing with the threat that they'd turn him back to stone if he didn't behave himself.

 

Now, though, with the elements gone and only the threat of losing Fluttershy's friendship to keep him in line, we'll have to see what the writers have in store for him next. So I guess now he won't show up the rest of the season unless they get a new way to keep him in line, or else it'll only be a repeat of Keep Calm and Flutter On. However, even without a big drama filled conflict, I don't think Discord's character could ever become boring. His trolling just never gets old, even if he is technically on the side of good, or at least as good as he can be. Being that his name is Discord, he probably just has a natural tendency to be a jerk and cause chaos.

[hawkflame 3,315]

 

I can give you a damn likeable perfect character everyone loved.

 

Heath ledgars joker.

Not the main one, but the one from the Nolan movie, that character was never that perfect. he never had plans a,b,c,d,e, he never was able to be that well put together.

 

and everyone LOVED HIM.

 

I think you guys are hearing perfect and assuming it's some kind of perfect good.

I'm suggesting that perfection is the principles that character exemplifies.

First of all, Joker's philosophy was highly flawed. He was in the end, proven wrong by the citizens of Gotham.

 

And secondly, you're deliberately ignoring a key aspect of what defines a Mary Sue- that the character is so perfect that it renders them boring or uninteresting. There's no sense of danger, because you get the sense that the character can't be defeated. Joker *was* defeated.

 

That last part is pretty important; Also implicit in the definition of the phrase is that they are not just perfect, but *perfect good*.

Edited November 28, 2013 by hawkflame

[Declen 118]

 

 

but no one ever entertained the idea on discord,

I can only repeat what I and others already told: Discord is not MS, because he is not a main character.

 

 

Heath ledgars joker.

What does he have to do with anything? He is an anthagonist - completely another league.

[Noodles 109]

Honestly a Mary sue would not be bad as a guest star. as a main part of the show yes. because even if the character is likeable how easy she passes every challenge would get old real fast.

 

what antagonist cant be Mary sue? just one name heck just one latter Q! I rest my case.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Noodles

[Vinyl Scratch (Filly)™ 936]

YOU SLABBERIN' BOUT CHRIS? U WOT M8!? FITE ME IRL!  lel...

[Declen 118]

what antagonist cant be Mary sue?

No.

Becaust being allmghty is necessity but not sufficiency to be concidered Mary Sue.

A character has to be protagonist or a major one to be a MS.

 

BTW: Q is the one of the reasons I don't like "Star Trek". For my taste he is unbearable. "Marshal of France? Rediculous!" Discord is so much better (for now).

Edited November 29, 2013 by Declen

[Malinter 3,065]

More over people get very upset when you call one of their characters mary sue even if they are.

Take Alucard from hell sing.  he blows through all his challenges like they were butter.  He's living, walking, talking mary sue.  and still has a fallowing.

 

 

Technically, Alucard is a mary sue of dracula mind, he dresses like the man who beat him (Van Hellsing) out of some warped sense of admiration and wanting to be like him and is OP as he is because A/ he's a super vampire and B/Had like 11 million lives so couldn't be killed by the usual stuff that kills vampires.

 

Discord isn't a mary sue as he isn't even based on a person but rather a character of a person, namely Q. And his powers while great have consequences. Yes, he can warp reality but he can also be turned to stone by little ponies in one shot so its a trade off.

 

Twilight isn't a mary sue because of lesson zero, twilight can easily screw up and get everything afterwards wrong if she loses control of a situation. Her magic is powerful because she understands it more than most unicorns and as a result of being element of magic but she can still lose other magic, namely Discord's magic and Trixie with the amulet,

Edited November 29, 2013 by Malinter

[Cygnus 60]

So is this thread mostly semantics, then?

[#1 Flutterfan 174]

Why do people like Batman over Superman?

 

Why do people dislike when you God-mod in an RP?

 

Why is it that your character has to start out as an Alicorn?

 

Why is it that your character has to know every form of (martial/elemental) art--and has to always win no matter what, even if they should have lost?

 

For the same reason--because Mary Sues exist. The reason people hate a Mary Sue--but at the same time prefer to have a villain who "Seems" to be perfect (which I'll explain why Discord has his own problems), is because as someone's said before. They don't have flaws. How is a character supposed to grow or encounter issues if they're perfect?

 

Let's refer back to Superman. Sure--he's got one weakness (barely now), Kryptonite. What's the easiest thing to predict in a fight? OH GOD THEY GOT KRYPTONITE ugh... no joke. Again? Maybe Lex didn't buy all the Kryptonite--because Batman has a bit, and the Joker probably has some.

 

Let's assume that Twilight was a Mary Sue--she would have become an alicorn at the end of season 1 because she would have stopped Nightmare Moon by herself--and would have never discovered or needed the others to have the elements of harmony--because she, herself, is the embodiment of EVERY element. Why? That's how Mary Sues work and how terrible authors and roleplayers write.

 

"My character is 5'9, very pretty, always knows everything even when you think she doesn't know what she's talking about--and is very strong. Stronger than most men. And she's also faster than Rainbowdash."

 

Okay--what the heck am I supposed to do with that?

 

Now. Why is Discord not a Mary Sue? He has issues--more than the usual--he has character growth (albeit forced) [Fluttershy/Discord episode], and overall he is susceptible to losing and being wrong. He's been wrong beore--he's not "all knowing" though we cannot say the same for Zacora--she's got her own special ways of knowing things. If anything. Princess Celestia is more of a Mary Sue than anything--but that's fine, because we don't see her very often.

 

TL;DR? Basically all characters who are Mary Sues suck gigantic hoofs.

Edited November 29, 2013 by #1 Flutterfan

[FNGRpony 658]

I can only repeat what I and others already told: Discord is not MS, because he is not a main character.

 

What does he have to do with anything? He is an anthagonist - completely another league.

 

So your suggesting Q wasn't a mary sue just because he wasn't main?

 

Now that is bull shit.

you.. you are suggesting being entertaining disqualifies you from being mary sue and it doesn't.

 

That's just you re writing the rules so you don't have to have the title attached to something you like.

 

Because bat man has the more interesting villains.

Honestly how many people really read bat man for batman?

 

people like the illusion of control, which is why most people straight up like as little modding of any sort as possible with out encoring chaos.

And yes it is silly to start of a character as a alicorn. It's something one could shoot for.

That being said I didn't hate cadince and a fair amount of fans didn't hate Cadince.

Of course she's not a mary sue, hell she got beat up by a changeling off screan before she ever showed up in the plot.

 

Honestly I have no proof alicorn means your more powerful.

If anything it's status.

Why do people like Batman over Superman?

 

Why do people dislike when you God-mod in an RP?

 

Why is it that your character has to start out as an Alicorn?

 

Why is it that your character has to know every form of (martial/elemental) art--and has to always win no matter what, even if they should have lost?

 

For the same reason--because Mary Sues exist. The reason people hate a Mary Sue--but at the same time prefer to have a villain who "Seems" to be perfect (which I'll explain why Discord has his own problems), is because as someone's said before. They don't have flaws. How is a character supposed to grow or encounter issues if they're perfect?

 

Let's refer back to Superman. Sure--he's got one weakness (barely now), Kryptonite. What's the easiest thing to predict in a fight? OH GOD THEY GOT KRYPTONITE ugh... no joke. Again? Maybe Lex didn't buy all the Kryptonite--because Batman has a bit, and the Joker probably has some.

 

Let's assume that Twilight was a Mary Sue--she would have become an alicorn at the end of season 1 because she would have stopped Nightmare Moon by herself--and would have never discovered or needed the others to have the elements of harmony--because she, herself, is the embodiment of EVERY element. Why? That's how Mary Sues work and how terrible authors and roleplayers write.

 

"My character is 5'9, very pretty, always knows everything even when you think she doesn't know what she's talking about--and is very strong. Stronger than most men. And she's also faster than Rainbowdash."

 

Okay--what the heck am I supposed to do with that?

 

Now. Why is Discord not a Mary Sue? He has issues--more than the usual--he has character growth (albeit forced) [Fluttershy/Discord episode], and overall he is susceptible to losing and being wrong. He's been wrong beore--he's not "all knowing" though we cannot say the same for Zacora--she's got her own special ways of knowing things. If anything. Princess Celestia is more of a Mary Sue than anything--but that's fine, because we don't see her very often.

 

TL;DR? Basically all characters who are Mary Sues suck gigantic hoofs.

and superman's biggest weakness is his morality.

it's one of batmans weakness.

 

IF you slapped frank castle(the punisher) in bruce waynes shoe for one week gotham would be clean. Sqeekie clean. I mean after you got out all the blood stains.

 

And celestial isn't a mary sue LOL the one time we saw her in a fight she got bitch slapped the hell down, by a race that's suppose to be the rogue class in a straight up head to head fight.

Last i checked i'm assuming that celestail and Luna both got sat the buck down by discord,

and beat him because they had the elements of harmoney.

 

Sense when has mary sue needed dues ex machina? Not very op if you ask me lol.

 

discord loses when he goes full blown retard, meaning he wills himself to lose

true or false.

Edited November 29, 2013 by FNGRpony

[Declen 118]

 

 

So your suggesting Q wasn't a mary sue just because he wasn't main? Now that is bull shit.

I'm not "suggesting" anything.

I tell you how it is. And other people do, too.

It doesn't suit you? Not my problem. Cope with it.

[FNGRpony 658]

I'm not "suggesting" anything.

I tell you how it is. And other people do, too.

It doesn't suit you? Not my problem. Cope with it.

 

I've seen threads where people tried to argue on here that zecora in no way shape or form resembled someone black.

Just because this sight says something in mass doesn't make it right,

it just means they refuse to admit something they feel uncomfortable about.

Edited November 29, 2013 by FNGRpony

[Noodles 109]

A Mary Sue is an unrealistic type of literary character Although they vary, a typical Mary Sue has an unreasonable number of cool or special traits, especially ones the author wishes he or she had, and they tend to accomplish things too easily, solve problems too neatly, and become the center of attention whether they deserve it or not.

Tell me how Q doesn't fit under that definition?

and don't give me crap about that's just my idea of what Mary Sue is. its a collage writing definition.

 

with that out of the way. we need to know Declens definition of avatar. cause the one definition I know its just a basic set up for the writer or gamer to project him or herself onto.

 

avatar definition.

The incarnation of a Hindu deity, especially Vishnu, in human or animal form.

2. An embodiment, as of a quality or concept; an archetype: the very avatar of cunning.

3. A temporary manifestation or aspect of a continuing entity: occultism in its present avatar.

well that's not helpful at all.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Noodles

[Declen 118]

Tell me how Q doesn't fit under that definition?

Since you ask hm... poitely, I tell you.

That definition is quite insufficiant.

The original Mary Sue was a protagonist.

A character, audience had to associate with. And audience were pissed off because how flat and empty that character was in her "badass-like perfection".

And futher characters piss the audience off and are called MS only if they are protagonists or main chars.

Supporting characters may be as cool as author whants as long as they don't get too much screentime. If you have Chuck Norris + Bhudda + Lenin in one character who, however, appeares in your fic only three times and not in any key sceene - nobody would care!

And now to the anthagonist.

Do you play videogames?

If you do, then here is a question for you: what is more interesting,

• when you play in god mode
• or when you meet an end boss so strong that you spend hours to pass him?

And after you answer this - than think yourself why an anthagonist can't be called a Mary Sue.

we need to know Declens definition of avatar

It's simple.

Avatar character is the protagonist whom author associates himself with on one level or another. It's an author's incarnation in form of a protagonist in his fic.

It can be plain and simple self-insertion of author's personality as is.

Or it can be a "wish fulfillment".

Or any other version of self-psychotherapy in form of a fic-writing.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Declen

[Noodles 109]

Avatar character is the protagonist whom author associates himself with on one level or another. It can be plain and simple self-insertion of author's personality as is. Or it can be a "wish fulfillment". Or any other version of self-psychotherapy in form of a fic-writing.

interesting as in that is the minimalist definition of Mary Sue.

 

Since you ask hm... poitely, I tell you. That definition is quite insufficiant.

This is getting old you reject any definition that doesn't meet with your personal approval. no definition no matter how "official" will do unless you can change it to meet your definition of the term.

Look Q can not be beaten at all he only allows the crew to "win" he could at any time he felt like destroy the ship easy.

so he Dose not fit the end boss fights in video games. they can be defeated. Q cant. the only thing that slowed him down at all was the other Q

he is by definition a mary Sue.

 

Just because you don't like the definition of a term you dot get to change it to fit your needs.

 

PS him fitting the definition of Mary Sue is probably one of the reasons you hate him.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Noodles

[Declen 118]

 

 

This is getting old you reject any definition that doesn't meet with your personal approval. no definition no matter how "official" will do unless you can change it to meet your definition of the term.

It would be my problem if I was alone, who shares this view on what Mary Sue is.

But since in this thred alone several people apperaed to have similar view on the matter - the problem is rather yours, no offence.

I haven't extract my definition from my nose, you know.

[SBaby 660]

Why do people like Batman over Superman?

 

 

The reason is quite simple.  Because people can theoretically be Batman if they have the right resources.  You really can't be Superman.  You can't be an alien from another planet with super strength and the ability to fly under your own power.  But you can build gadgets and go out in a black cowl and cape to fight crime.  So people relate more to Batman than they do to Superman.

 

 

 

Why do people dislike when you God-mod in an RP?

 

Honestly my answer is going to be extremely controversial.  Read at your own risk.  

 

But anyone that's been a DM of a table-top RPG knows this is the truth.  If you don't like it when players God-mod in your RPs, then it probably means you aren't a very good GM/DM, especially if they're doing it and getting away with it.  One of the things good DMs know is that there's always something you can do about God-modders, you can always teach them a lesson without having to make rules against it ahead of time or disallow things.

 

Someone wants to be Superman?  Give every bad guy kryptonite (it's what the comics seem to do anyway).  Someone wants to be immortal?  Throw them into a maze that takes a million years to get out of.  See how able-bodied they are once they do (or if the world is even still there).  You really think Discord, the God of Chaos, can't maze a character (hint: watch Return of Harmony again, because he did this)? 

 

There was someone in one of my D&D settings who was God-modding, and had actually used nearly every single loophole in the rulebooks to get whatever they wanted and eventually became way more powerful than the status quo of that adventure.  I made no rule against this, but the person was becoming extremely cocky and arrogant.  So it got to the point where I had to do something about it.

 

So what I did is when the character was level 17, I sent the party on a campaign where they passed through a dimension door to Krynn (the Dragonlance setting).  Everyone else was around level 13.  Anyway, what ended up happening is the player's character gained two levels (due to some more loopholes he exploited).  So now he was level 19 (and people that have played the Dragonlance setting are seeing the problem building).

 

See in 2nd Edition, when a character got above level 18 in Dragonlance, the Gods of the world literally kicked the character out of the world, because of things that happened in the past between a certain wizard and one of them.  Anyway, he got thrown out of the world (and I rolled this completely legitimately).  And he ended up in Planescape, right in Sigil, in front of the Lady of Pain.  And, the rest is probably too violent to describe on a MLP site.  But suffice it to say, he was humbled quite a bit and I know he learned his lesson from that.

 

The point is, there are always ways to deal with God-modding in campaigns without having to state rules forbidding it.

 

 

 

Why is it that your character has to start out as an Alicorn?

 

 

Personally, I don't see a problem with a character being an Alicorn.  The reason is, Alicorns should be the average of two pony races, not the best.  For instance, Celestia is an Alicorn, but she can't cause a Sonic Rainboom.  And she sure couldn't stop the Ursa Minor, even when it was destroying Ponyville and possibly killing her subjects.  In fact, Chrysalis, a Changeling, managed to defeat her.  And how did she do it?  With the powers of a Unicorn she had under her spell.  This is indirect evidence that Unicorn magic is ultimately stronger than Alicorn magic.

Edited November 29, 2013 by SBaby

[Declen 118]

In fact, Chrysalis, a Changeling, managed to defeat her.

You forget a couple things here.

1) Madame Cheeseholelegs was a sort of alocorn herself.

2) It was another alicorn (miss Sunshine-Sunshine) who defeated M-me Cheeseholelegs and her whole army in her time.

So, your argument is invalid.

Edited November 29, 2013 by Declen

[SBaby 660]

You forget a couple things here.

1) Madame Cheeseholelegs was a sort of alocorn herself.

2) It was another alicorn (miss Sunshine-Sunshine) who defeated M-me Cheeseholelegs and her whole army in her time.

So, your argument is invalid.

 

Chrysalis wasn't an Alicorn.  It was established in canon that Changelings had relatively no power without feeding off of someone else's love.  Ergo, it was Shining Armour that defeated Celestia, not Chrysalis. 

 

But let's pretend for a minute that what you said is true and that she is an Alicorn.

 

First of all, SHINING ARMOUR IS A UNICORN!  Minor detail there.  Second, Cadence needed him to defeat Chrysalis.  She couldn't defeat her single-handedly (if she could have, she would have).  And finally, Chrysalis needed the SAME UNICORN to defeat Celestia, the Alicorn that controls THE SUN.  Therefore, that must mean, that Unicorn magic is more powerful than Alicorn magic.

Edited November 29, 2013 by SBaby

[Declen 118]

 

 

when you actually have something to add to the conversation.

I've already added enough.

To your part of "conversation" anyways.

[SBaby 660]

I've already added enough.

To your part of "conversation" anyways.

 

 

Let me post this again, because I think you missed it.

 

Chrysalis wasn't an Alicorn.  It was established in canon that Changelings had relatively no power without feeding off of someone else's love.  Ergo, it was Shining Armour that defeated Celestia, not Chrysalis. 

 

But let's pretend for a minute that what you said is true and that she is an Alicorn.

 

First of all, SHINING ARMOUR IS STILL A UNICORN!  Minor detail there.  Second, Cadence needed him to defeat Chrysalis.  She couldn't defeat her single-handedly (if she could have, she would have).  And finally, Chrysalis needed the SAME UNICORN to defeat Celestia, the Alicorn that controls THE SUN.  Therefore, that must mean, that Unicorn magic is more powerful than Alicorn magic.

Edited November 29, 2013 by SBaby