Who is stronger: Princess Luna or Princess Celestia?

[Fractured 2,684]

Again, if this is the case (which it isn't; no evidence in the show has presented itself to establish that this is the case, and you have not presented any evidence to establish this to be the case either), why hasn't the mane six gone after this supposed entity or being?  If this being is powerful enough to take over one of the most powerful ponies in the land, it would present a major fundamental threat to Equestria and the entire world.  And Celestia would have sent them on a quest to stop it.  Yet nothing has been done about it and it's been ignored in the show to the point where it isn't even mentioned.  Why?

 

The only logical answer is because no such being exists in the cartoon.  It is exclusive to the comics, and the comics alone.

 

Again, since there have been so many things in the show that have contradicted the comics and vice versa, claims that the two are somehow still canon with one another are not credible.  It's like trying to say the Pokemon anime and the Pokemon games are canon with one another (look up the GS Ball in the anime, and you'll see why any claims to such completely fall apart).  It just doesn't work, because they aren't.

 

It almost seems like what you're trying to do is convince people that the comics are in continuity with the show to satisfy your own headcanon.  You're acting like the things in the comics have actually happened in the show.

 

The problem with this is you haven't provided any real evidence to show they are, but merely hearsay from a few people that have been contradicted on other issues numerous times (issues as basic as when Season 6 will premiere), and one or two minor coincidences that don't even amount to anything substantial, beyond a single shot or a moment of about two seconds in the episode.  This is not evidence that any of this has happened in the show.

You're right, in that several major events from the comics have never been shown in the show. However, you're wrong when you assume that has anything to do with whether they're canon or not. Simply put, the comics, along with the chapter books, pop-up books, trading cards, etc. are all considered B canon. Meaning that at any point, should the show, A canon, decide to adopt any of the ideas in any of these mediums, it can do so. Just as well, if the events in the show directly contradict what's going on in any of the B canons, then the shows canon takes priority.

 

Having said that, if you're under the assumption that any of these things need to be directly included in the show or influence events to be canon, then you're incorrect. This literally runs counter to what B canon is supposed to be; a supplement to the A canon, for people who choose to go through them. Because the people that do this (Hasbro, in this case) know that, while a ton of people watch the show, only a percentage of those will ever partake in the secondary media, and it'd be unfair for major events depicted in the latter to influence the former. Which, going back to the Nightmarity Arc, is why you haven't heard anything from it in the show; it's a bad marketing strategy to force people to do things like buy the comics, just to understand what's going in the show. Again, doesn't mean that they're not canon, or that they never happened in the show proper; they just won't be included or mentioned, for convenience's sake.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

You are clearly ignoring what numerous people are saying.

 

Hasbro's so-called 'word' is hearsay unless we see it in the show directly.  Hearsay is not evidence!!!  Al it is, is someone saying 'I heard from a friend, who knows someone who knows someone that works on the show'.  It's not evidence.

 

People that work for Hasbro or HAVE EVER worked for Hasbro have been contradicted numerous times by other people and events in the show.  So anything they say should be taken as a rumor, at best unless it's seen directly in the show.  At worst, such misinformation has fooled and misled the fanbase so many times that no fan worth their salt is going to take it as fact until they see it.

 

Onto your examples, where do we see this being in the show?  We don't because it doesn't exist (at least as far as the show is concerned at this point).    

 

Someone on Serebii once made the same kind of argument I'm seeing here regarding the Pokemon anime and the games, that they're canon with one another because we saw things like the GS Ball in Jhoto.  Obviously, this was inaccurate.  The journal claiming that Celestia is stronger than Luna in the show is FiM's GS Ball.  Maybe Celestia studied magic more intensely than Luna, and her initial skills with it seemed to be better, but clearly there is something inside Luna that defeated Celestia outright.  Whatever it was, brought out her full power.  But the journal doesn't say anything about an external force.

 

So I have to say, unless we see it in the show, I recommend everyone assume it doesn't exist as far as the show is concerned.

Have you known the concept 'word of god'? Andy Price's quote is directly referencing Hasbro, the one's in charge of everything that goes into mlp fim, including what DHX puts into as they cannot put anything into the show without Hasbro's approval, as the ones who told him that the comics are canon to FIM, including the show. That 'hearsay' is irrefutable proof that whatever is put into the comics, unless the show directly contradicts it as comment states, is canon. This is the equivalent of you denying the word of what the author of a series says is canon because you do not want to count a part of the lore true as it's story wasn't directly referenced in the main series. Like I said, you can go around and refuse to believe it to be true, but Hasbro has the final say on what is canon or not as Andy Price mentioned without a hint of doubt in his tweet on who is the one who told him on what's canon or not.

 

I call Occum's razor as your assertion that there was something inside Luna all along has nothing to back it up and it requires alot of assumptions on your part. My point that Nightmare Moon is a seperate being that took advantage of Luna's jealousy is backed by an officially licensed comic series from the author of FIM that considers the comics canon, regardless of how many times you relentlessy rant of how a direct quote is somehow meaningless hearsay.

 

As for your contradictions and stuff, there's still one issue with that point, none of those contradictions go against what the comics say and as a result the arc is still canon. Unless you provide something that I cannot explain away as 'seperation of different medias confining their stories to their side of the same lore, your point is flimsy to hold.

 

Finally, you still haven't explained of why the show referenced characters that exist from the comics and eqg.

[SBaby 660]

I call Occum's razor as your assertion that there was something inside Luna all along has nothing to back it up and it requires alot of assumptions on your part.

 

 

This is a theory on my part.  It is a possible explanation as to why she has that persona (and a plasuible one).  I never said it was law.

 

 

 

My point that Nightmare Moon is a seperate being that took advantage of Luna's jealousy is backed by an officially licensed comic series from the author of FIM that considers the comics canon, regardless of how many times you relentlessy rant of how a direct quote is somehow meaningless hearsay.

 

 

You can make the 'They said it, so it's law' straw man argument until you're blue in the face.  The people working for Hasbro have been contradicted too many times for this point to hold up.  This is the problem with using them as a reference for any argument.  There is uncertainty in everything they say.  But because this has happened with the staff members, people have no argument simply because they say someone at Hasbro or someone on the staff of the show said something.  And not only that, but most of what they say regarding the comics is from their own frame of reference.  So unless you can provide conclusive evidence from the show that the events match the comics, it's hearsay.

 

i.e. The being is not in the show, therefore it doesn't exist in the show. 

 

Now do I think it would be cool to have that being in the show?  Well yeah, sort of.  It would be like U-DO or the Wave Existence.  It would be awesome.  It would be a great way to get the characters to kind of panic, knowing that there's a supremely powerful being that can turn any one of them evil at any time, as well as kicking the mane six's flanks into figuring out what's going on.

 

So yeah.  I'm all for this happening.  I just don't see any evidence of it in the show.

 

Finally I have no idea when or how EQG got into this discussion, since that is even further off topic than all this talk about the comics, and I didn't mention that once (but if you MUST know, that one I'm on the fence about regarding its canonicity to the show, because we actually see Twilight in pony form in that one, so it could very well exist in the same universe as the show, but again, this is merely a frame of reference; until we get conclusive evidence it cannot be confirmed).  

Edited March 21, 2016 by SBaby

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

 

 

I call Occum's razor as your assertion that there was something inside Luna all along has nothing to back it up and it requires alot of assumptions on your part.

 

Worst invocation of Occam's razor, ever.  To imagine that Luna had the power within her all along is significantly less of a leap of logic than assuming that her feelings left her susceptible to possession by an external entity.

 

Far more likely that Luna's power was held in fetters until she succumbed to her fury and released her pent-up power to its full potential, unrestrained by discipline or the need for control.  Compare it with the Sith lords in Star Wars, individually more powerful than the vast majority of Jedi, due to allowing the darker (and less controlled) side of their personality to act without artificial constraint.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

This is a theory on my part.  It is a possible explanation as to why she has that persona (and a plasuible one).  I never said it was law.

 

 

 

 

 

You can make the 'They said it, so it's law' straw man argument until you're blue in the face.  The people working for Hasbro have been contradicted too many times for this point to hold up.  This is the problem with using them as a reference for any argument.  There is uncertainty in everything they say.  But because this has happened with the staff members, people have no argument simply because they say someone at Hasbro or someone on the staff of the show said something.  And not only that, but most of what they say regarding the comics is from their own frame of reference.  So unless you can provide conclusive evidence from the show that the events match the comics, it's hearsay.

 

i.e. The being is not in the show, therefore it doesn't exist in the show. 

 

Now do I think it would be cool to have that being in the show?  Well yeah, sort of.  It would be like U-DO or the Wave Existence.  It would be awesome.  It would be a great way to get the characters to kind of panic, knowing that there's a supremely powerful being that can turn any one of them evil at any time, as well as kicking the mane six's flanks into figuring out what's going on.

 

So yeah.  I'm all for this happening.  I just don't see any evidence of it in the show.

 

Finally I have no idea when or how EQG got into this discussion, since that is even further off topic than all this talk about the comics, and I didn't mention that once (but if you MUST know, that one I'm on the fence about regarding its canonicity to the show, because we actually see Twilight in pony form in that one, so it could very well exist in the same universe as the show, but again, this is merely a frame of reference; until we get conclusive evidence it cannot be confirmed).  

 

So a headcanon in otherwords.

 

Contradictions that I have yet to see to rebuff my point on the Nightmare rarity arc other than pure conjectures. Andy's tweet sounded pretty certain considering who he was quoting as the one's who directly said to him of the comic's canon status. You're pretty much at this point just throwing one twisting conjecture onto another on whatever argument I present without anything to back up your case other than pure hearsay on your part.

 

I actually am not a fan of the Nightmare rarity arc. However, just because I don't like it  doesn't mean that I'm going to deny something that the the author (Hasbro) wishes it to be so I'm going to support it as it is what they want in their lore no matter how much I think it's crap.

 

It's merely a point to add of how another media that can be considered in it's own separate storyline (EQG) is part of FIM canon considering they made a reference to one of it's characters (Flash Sentry) in the show itself. But by that logic of seeing Twilight in pony form, wouldn't that also hold true for the comics as they also hold our pony characters in there?

Worst invocation of Occam's razor, ever.  To imagine that Luna had the power within her all along is significantly less of a leap of logic than assuming that her feelings left her susceptible to possession by an external entity.

 

Far more likely that Luna's power was held in fetters until she succumbed to her fury and released her pent-up power to its full potential, unrestrained by discipline or the need for control.  Compare it with the Sith lords in Star Wars, individually more powerful than the vast majority of Jedi, due to allowing the darker (and less controlled) side of their personality to act without artificial constraint.

 

No because there has been nothing to indicate that Luna has some sort of 'hidden power' in her that we've seen nothing about or even know why she gets it but not Celestia. Being duped by a being into accepting more power makes more sense when it is backed up by the canon's lore itself so no I'm correct in it's use. Unless you wish to argue of what evidence would support that Luna has some sort of hidden power in her, I don't see the validity in your claim.

 

Why does Luna get such a large power increase but Celestia doesn't? Especially when Amy, a show writer, pretty much stated in her book that Celestia was better than Luna in magic, and how does Nightmare Moon get strong enough to banish Celestia to the Moon while she needed the elements of harmony to pull that feat off. You're telling me that despite Celestia busting her butt off trying to learn as much magic as she could while Luna, who hated to study hard, is somehow significantly more powerful than Celestia just because she's using the full might of her powers without restraint? Sorry, but I do not believe it is just that case as Nightmare Moon has to be on a power level well above Celestia, which the comics explain that Nightmare Moon can provide a significant power boost to whoever it possesses considering how an otherwise normal powered unicorn can suddenly handle a depowered Luna easily.

 

You can pull the Jedi and Sith analogy, but even a sith would need to learn much of the force in order to compare to a jedi in powers. Not just fighting without restrain unlike a jedi, but actually put the work and effort to learn and master the force as much as they could for it doesn't matter how much restraints they removed when said Jedi is exceptionally more skilled and better able to command the force than they do.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Nuke87654

[SBaby 660]

You're telling me that despite Celestia busting her butt off trying to learn as much magic as she could while Luna, who hated to study hard, is somehow significantly more powerful than Celestia just because she's using the full might of her powers without restraint?

 

Unfortunately, yes.  That is exactly what we're saying.

 

Sorry to say, but franchises do that all the time.  Look at Batman and Superman.  The biggest argument Batman has against Superman is the fact that the Man of Steel never has to train to make himself more powerful.  He's just that powerful.  He 'didn't work to get it'.  He just has it.  Any amount of 'training' you could argue with him is more learning to understand what he can do.  But the point is, no matter how hard Batman or any other superhero trains themselves, they'll never ever match the sheer power Superman has.  That's part of what drives Batman to challenge Superman in the first place.  He does it to make a point that even though Superman is clearly stronger in every mechanical avenue, there are people that will stand up to him if he ever takes the wrong path (and from Batman's perspective, that happened when Superman essentially became the world's own personal enforcer), even if the effort is hopeless.  Believe me, I had to swallow my pride big time as a hardcore Batman fan to accept this.

 

This is a harsh but real truth.  There are those that train their entire lives and reach a certain degree of strength and knowledge, and there are people that just have that strength and knowledge to begin with.  To put it into pony terms, Rarity trains a day to master her magical abilities, an Earth Pony trains in the same field for a thousand years, Rarity still wins.  This is reality.

 

The difference with Celestia and Luna is Celestia has trained and reached her full potential with her magic, something that Luna never did.  But in Luna's case, her untapped potential is still there, and that's what her Nightmare Moon persona draws out.  And she's able to defeat Celestia with it, despite never having trained.

Edited March 21, 2016 by SBaby

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

So a headcanon in otherwords.

 

Contradictions that I have yet to see to rebuff my point on the Nightmare rarity arc other than pure conjectures. Andy's tweet sounded pretty certain considering who he was quoting as the one's who directly said to him of the comic's canon status. You're pretty much at this point just throwing one twisting conjecture onto another on whatever argument I present without anything to back up your case other than pure hearsay on your part.

 

I actually am not a fan of the Nightmare rarity arc. However, just because I don't like it  doesn't mean that I'm going to deny something that the the author (Hasbro) wishes it to be so I'm going to support it as it is what they want in their lore no matter how much I think it's crap.

 

It's merely a point to add of how another media that can be considered in it's own separate storyline (EQG) is part of FIM canon considering they made a reference to one of it's characters (Flash Sentry) in the show itself. But by that logic of seeing Twilight in pony form, wouldn't that also hold true for the comics as they also hold our pony characters in there?

 

No because there has been nothing to indicate that Luna has some sort of 'hidden power' in her that we've seen nothing about or even know why she gets it but not Celestia. Being duped by a being into accepting more power makes more sense when it is backed up by the canon's lore itself so no I'm correct in it's use. Unless you wish to argue of what evidence would support that Luna has some sort of hidden power in her, I don't see the validity in your claim.

 

Why does Luna get such a large power increase but Celestia doesn't? Especially when Amy, a show writer, pretty much stated in her book that Celestia was better than Luna in magic, and how does Nightmare Moon get strong enough to banish Celestia to the Moon while she needed the elements of harmony to pull that feat off. You're telling me that despite Celestia busting her butt off trying to learn as much magic as she could while Luna, who hated to study hard, is somehow significantly more powerful than Celestia just because she's using the full might of her powers without restraint? Sorry, but I do not believe it is just that case as Nightmare Moon has to be on a power level well above Celestia, which the comics explain that Nightmare Moon can provide a significant power boost to whoever it possesses considering how an otherwise normal powered unicorn can suddenly handle a depowered Luna easily.

 

You can pull the Jedi and Sith analogy, but even a sith would need to learn much of the force in order to compare to a jedi in powers. Not just fighting without restrain unlike a jedi, but actually put the work and effort to learn and master the force as much as they could for it doesn't matter how much restraints they removed when said Jedi is exceptionally more skilled and better able to command the force than they do.

 

I think we have reached something of an impasse.  Nobody is going to change their minds on this.  My point of view remains that it doesn't matter what the staff at Hasbro say if they don't actually introduce it in-universe.  Precisely zero story content has migrated from the comic to the cartoon, for exactly the reasons already stated by both SBaby and myself, that in writing the cartoon, they have intentionally avoided introducing any external elements in order to keep the cartoon uncluttered with extraneous semi-canon material that becomes an additional requirement to fully understand the story.

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,302]

She is at least stronger than Celestia's whose biggest role in season 5 amounted to this:

That's really unfortunate, honestly.  I would've liked to have seen Celestia in "Do Android Princesses Dream of Electric Magical Sheep?"

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Unfortunately, yes.  That is exactly what we're saying.

 

Sorry to say, but franchises do that all the time.  Look at Batman and Superman.  The biggest argument Batman has against Superman is the fact that the Man of Steel never has to train to make himself more powerful.  He's just that powerful.  He 'didn't work to get it'.  He just has it.  Any amount of 'training' you could argue with him is more learning to understand what he can do.  But the point is, no matter how hard Batman or any other superhero trains themselves, they'll never ever match the sheer power Superman has.  That's part of what drives Batman to challenge Superman in the first place.  He does it to make a point that even though Superman is clearly stronger in every mechanical avenue, there are people that will stand up to him if he ever takes the wrong path (and from Batman's perspective, that happened when Superman essentially became the world's own personal enforcer).

 

Sorry to say, but this is reality.  There are those that train their entire lives and reach a certain degree of strength and knowledge, and there are people that just have that strength and knowledge to begin with.  To put it into pony terms, Rarity trains a day to master her magical abilities, an Earth Pony trains in the same field for a thousand years, Rarity still wins.

 

The difference with Celestia and Luna is Celestia has trained and reached her full potential with her magic, something that Luna never did.  But in Luna's case, her untapped potential is still there, and that's what her Nightmare Moon persona draws out.  That's why she was able to defeat Celestia.

 

You're comparing a kryptonian being who are shown to be far stronger than your average human being under the yellow sun to two Alicorn princesses who are sisters. They're not the same as Luna and Celestia are both born Alicorns so there is no reason to expect a difference in power level if they're related unlike Superman being a kryptonian to the human batman. The difference shown is that Celestia worked harder to learn about magic compared to Luna. There is still no proof Luna has this untapped power potential simply because she has it without rhyme or reason compared to her studious sister.

 

On a separate note, Superman is not this oped hero you think he is. He's not even the most powerful member in the Justice League as the Flash and Martian Manhunter are more powerful and that's just two I know.

 

Finally your whole argument here is nothing but an Association fallacy.

I think we have reached something of an impasse.  Nobody is going to change their minds on this.  My point of view remains that it doesn't matter what the staff at Hasbro say if they don't actually introduce it in-universe.  Precisely zero story content has migrated from the comic to the cartoon, for exactly the reasons already stated by both SBaby and myself, that in writing the cartoon, they have intentionally avoided introducing any external elements in order to keep the cartoon uncluttered with extraneous semi-canon material that becomes an additional requirement to fully understand the story.

 

Than I'm sorry to see that nobody is going to change or be convinced of whatever argument is going to be presented here.

[SBaby 660]

You're comparing a kryptonian being who are shown to be far stronger than your average human being under the yellow sun to two Alicorn princesses who are sisters. They're not the same as Luna and Celestia are both born Alicorns so there is no reason to expect a difference in power level if they're related unlike Superman being a kryptonian to the human batman. The difference shown is that Celestia worked harder to learn about magic compared to Luna. There is still no proof Luna has this untapped power potential simply because she has it without rhyme or reason compared to her studious sister.   On a separate note, Superman is not this oped hero you think he is. He's not even the most powerful member in the Justice League as the Flash and Martian Manhunter are more powerful and that's just two I know.   Finally your whole argument here is nothing but an Association fallacy.

 

If that's your take on what I said, then you've failed to see the point of the post.

 

The point wasn't to compare FiM to Superman and Batman.  The point was to illustrate that there are those that train and train, only to be outclassed by others that have natural talent, even to the point of not having to train as hard.  This is an unfortunate reality that exists in almost every fictional continuity out there.  And it's a reality that exists even in real life.  Some people are just built bigger than others, some can adapt better than others, and no matter how hard one trains, the risk of that fundamental difference being the deciding factor is still there.

 

With Luna, her untapped power is brought out when she transforms.  That is why she is able to defeat Celestia in that instance, even though in any other instance she likely would have lost.  Has it occurred to you that maybe there's a REASON Luna didn't train herself to be a powerful magic user?  Maybe she herself was afraid of what her magic could do.  The fact that she is able to so handily defeat Celestia in that state goes pretty far to support this.

 

It also explains why she only partially transformed in Nightmare Night.  She didn't want her full power to awaken.

Edited March 22, 2016 by SBaby

[Nuke87654 1,849]

If that's your take on what I said, then you've failed to see the point of the post.

 

The point wasn't to compare FiM to Superman and Batman.  The point was to illustrate that there are those that train and train, only to be outclassed by others that have natural talent, even to the point of not having to train as hard.  This is an unfortunate reality that exists in almost every fictional continuity out there.  And it's a reality that exists even in real life.  Some people are just built bigger than others, some can adapt better than others, and no matter how hard one trains, the risk of that fundamental difference being the deciding factor is still there.

 

With Luna, her untapped power is brought out when she transforms.  That is why she is able to defeat Celestia in that instance, even though in any other instance she likely would have lost.  Has it occurred to you that maybe there's a REASON Luna didn't train herself to be a powerful magic user?  Maybe she herself was afraid of what her magic could do.  The fact that she is able to so handily defeat Celestia in that state goes pretty far to support this.

 

It also explains why she only partially transformed in Nightmare Night.  She didn't want her full power to awaken.

 

No I understood, you're right that in fiction, there are characters where no matter how hard a person trains, they're not going to be able to beat them due to circumstances. You're problem is that you're taking a setting and it's characters and applying it's own contexts to FIM just so you can declare of how 'regardless of how hard Celestia trains, Luna is more powerful because she is.' It's nothing but an association fallacy because you're using the qualities of DC comics (Superman vs. Batman) as a crutch to justify this premise that Celestia is weaker than Luna no matter how hard she trains because Luna is stronger.

 

You completely ignore how different contexts of it show it's not similar.

 

Biggest reason why Superman is stronger than Batman is because he's a Kryptonian under a yellow sun, which allows him to get so strong.

 

Batman is a low end superhuman being. A low end superhuman being <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Yellow star powered Kryptonian.

 

In FIM, what context is there to show Luna is stronger than Celestia?

 

Nightmare Moon, which the comics went and explained as a result of her being possessed by a separate being that allowed a normal powered unicorn (Rarity) to beat a depowered Luna in a fight. Thus it provides a substantial power boost. There is nothing else to suggest that Luna is stronger because she somehow has this hidden power that she only uses if she gives in to rage. I mean the whole premise is illogical because how did Luna get such a power and her sister did not!? There is no proof or evidence of it other than a wishful headcanon because there is nothing to indicate as such while there's been plenty of evidence to suggest Celestia is stronger than Luna.

 

Than when you compare other evidences where:

 

Luna and Celestia are born Alicorn sisters.

 

Celestia loved to fly and study magic no matter how  hard and difficult.

 

Luna hated to study magic if it was difficult and she preferred to have fun instead of work hard like Celestia like to do.

 

Luna as Nightmare Moon is suddenly able to be more powerful than Celestia which required the usage of the Elements of Harmony to banish her to the moon. In an AU timeline, Nightmare Moon does the same to Celestia only without the use of the Elements of Harmony. Considering of just how powerful the elements of Harmony are, it  provided a great power boost to Celestia that allowed her to beat Nightmare Moon. The fact that Nightmare Moon is just under that, that would mean the power boost Nightmare Moon achieved for Luna is beyond anything that even a studious Alicorn like Celestia can match.

 

This premise that Luna held this hidden power all along is nothing but wishful thinking. It has no basis, it has no backing from the show or any media, it has no logical premise, and it goes directly against what Hasbro approved for the comics to do to explain more on Nightmare Moon.

 

Also, that 'transformation' in Luna Eclipsed is nothing but an illusion she created because the whole idea 'it was only a partial transformation' doesn't make sense for how:

 

 

 

Luna appears as Nightmare Moon in full view other than some false teeth she used. You're telling me that she only partially transformed when she looks almost exactly the same as Nightmare Moon?

 

My point that it was an Illusion again prevails because she needed the false teeth as she couldn't get the razor teeth down and yet was able to don a near perfect cosplay of Nightmare Moon.

 

Really, you have yet to provide anything to go against any of my points other than conjectures, fallacies, and personal beliefs with no backing from anything in FIM to indicate Luna is stronger than Celestia.

 

I on the other hand have shown:

 

 

 

A. A Direct quote from a major comic book artist that states that Hasbro, DHX's boss and the ones that ultimately approve of everything DHX and other licensed works does to FIM lore, considers the comics canon.

 

B. A major show writer writing the Journal of the Two Sisters that shows of how Celestia had studied magic more than Luna, who hated to study if it were difficult, and how Celestia loved to fly to suggest if she is also a better flier than Luna.

 

C. Luna preferred to have fun and not to study and work hard as much as Celestia.

 

D. How the show has referenced OC's from the comics to imply as a reference and shout out to the comics.

 

And that's not using more stuff from the comics like how:

 

E. AU Celestia, unpowered by anything, one shotted AU Luna that knocked her out for several minutes. This is something that as Nightmare Moon she was only able to do it to Celestia for a minute or so. This means an uncharged Celestia magic laser does more damage to Luna than Nightmare Moon did to Celestia.

 

F. Celestia has her own powered up form that she only used against her AU self. Unlike Luna, this was actually shown. Ironically, possibly the only evidence to suggest Luna has such a powered up form requires you to acknowledge Celestia has her own too so your point is moot regardless if you try to use this.

 

G. Celestia was able to fend off Nightmare Moon's mind attacks and knock her out of her mind, which Nightmare Moon had heavy help from the denizens on the moon, and a plan to tire Celestia using her help, and even broke into a tired Celestia's mind. Meaning even using mind attacks, in a mind duel, a tired Celestia >>>>>>> Nightmare Moon with heavy help.

 

Thus how can I simply approve of your case when your evidence is backed by nothing other than what point you can redirect it to for your own liking with really no direction other than to prove that your belief is correct? Mine is guided by the evidences presented in FIM's lore for which you deliberately omit because it does not suit you.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Nuke87654

[Steel Accord 6,660]

Well as some have said, I don't think it's a matter of raw power and both are equal. I mean they did rule AS equals once upon a time.

 

I mean both of their feats are pretty impressive when you really look at them, not taking their world saving ventures into account both obviously have extensive knowledge of deep magics. Celestia knew of the Crystal Empire and what the Crystal Heart could do and was even capable of using Sombra's dark magic.

 

While Luna guards the dreams of everypony and has a clear knowledge of what they are and how they effect ponies in the waking world. Her command of the dream realm is so absolute that she can link dreams together and seal away her own guilt in an eternal nightmare.

 

That's not to mention that both of them can appear on the ethereal plane with seeming no effort. Luna in the dream realm and Celestia in that place she greeted Twilight upon her ascension.

[SBaby 660]

A. A Direct quote from a major comic book artist that states that Hasbro, DHX's boss and the ones that ultimately approve of everything DHX and other licensed works does to FIM lore.

 

 

Hearsay.  Staff members, writers, etc...  have been contradicted too many times in the past for this to be taken as law.  Sorry, but when staff members are contradicted so frequently, 'take what they say with a grain of salt' is the only sensible response to anything they say.

 

 

 

B. A major show writer writing the Journal of the Two Sisters that shows of how Celestia had studied magic more than Luna, who hated to study if it were difficult, and how Celestia loved to fly to suggest if she is also a better flier than Luna.

 

Again, refer to my post about Superman and Batman.  I've already covered this three times, and I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself again.

 

 

 

D. How the show has referenced OC's from the comics to imply as a reference and shout out to the comics.

 

As you say, a shout out to the comics.  Fanservice.  Advertising at best.  If the two were truly in continuity with one another, the being in the comics would have been referenced  and pursued since it friggin possessed one of the mane six.  If it happened in canon with the show, there would have been an arc about them going after it to at least find out what it was, if nothing else.  But there wasn't.  There was no arc related to it, and none of the characters showed even the slightest amount of interest in it.  Why?  Because it didn't happen in the show.

 

You could make the argument that characters like Doomsday showed up in the Justice League cartoon, but that doesn't mean the cartoon is in continuity with the Prime universe.  Franchises do this all the time.  It's how they keep fans engaged without having one medium interfere with the other.

Edited March 22, 2016 by SBaby

[Fractured 2,684]

Hearsay.  Staff members, writers, etc...  have been contradicted too many times in the past for this to be taken as law.  Sorry, but when staff members are contradicted so frequently, 'take what they say with a grain of salt' is the only sensible response to anything they say.

 

 

 

 

Again, refer to my post about Superman and Batman.  I've already covered this three times, and I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself again.

 

 

 

 

As you say, a shout out to the comics.  Fanservice.  Advertising at best.  If the two were truly in continuity with one another, the being in the comics would have been referenced  and pursued since it friggin possessed one of the mane six.  If it happened in canon with the show, there would have been an arc about them going after it to at least find out what it was, if nothing else.  But there wasn't.  There was no arc related to it, and none of the characters showed even the slightest amount of interest in it.  Why?  Because it didn't happen in the show.

 

You could make the argument that characters like Doomsday showed up in the Justice League cartoon, but that doesn't mean the cartoon is in continuity with the Prime universe.  Franchises do this all the time.  It's how they keep fans engaged without having one medium interfere with the other.

I'm actually curious what this has to do with the argument. I hope you realize that even the show and the comics not being canon to each other wouldn't make the comics non-canon; it would literally just mean these things didn't happen in the show. And OP never specified which canon to use proving this; both A canon and B canon are very much viable here.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Fractured

[SBaby 660]

I'm actually curious what this has to do with the argument. I hope you realize that even the show and the comics not being canon to each other wouldn't make the comics non-canon; it would literally just mean these things just didn't happen in the show.

 

The reason the comics aren't in continuity with the show is because things have happened in the comics that can't possibly happen in the show.  For instance, the CMCs can't be kidnapped by Chrysalis, because that happened before they had their Cutie Marks.  Any instance of them being kidnapped now, would still be an alternate timeline, because they already have their Cutie Marks.  That alone is enough to disqualify the comics from being in the same timeline as the show.  And we know this couldn't have happened in the show offscreen, because it wasn't brought up in MMC.  But there's more.

 

Major events in the comics (such as Nightmare Rarity) are never once referenced in the show, even though they would be.  If an entity was powerful enough to not only possess one of the Princesses, but also possessed one of the mane six, it wouldn't be just shrugged off and ignored in the show.  The characters simply wouldn't do something that irresponsible.  They would figure out what that being was and go after it, since it presents a major fundamental threat to Equestria and the world.  That tells me the being doesn't exist in the cartoon.

 

Granted, I think it would be more interesting if it DID show up in the cartoon.

Edited March 22, 2016 by SBaby

[Fractured 2,684]

The reason the comics aren't in continuity with the show is because things have happened in the comics that can't possibly happen in the show.  For instance, the CMCs can't be kidnapped by Chrysalis, because that happened before they had their Cutie Marks.  Any instance of them being kidnapped now, would still be an alternate timeline, because they already have their Cutie Marks.  That alone is enough to disqualify the comics from being in the same timeline as the show.  But there's more.

 

Major events in the comics (such as Nightmare Rarity) are never once referenced in the show, even though they would be.  If an entity was powerful enough to not only possess one of the Princesses, but also possessed one of the mane six, it wouldn't be just shrugged off and ignored in the show.  The characters simply wouldn't do something that irresponsible.  They would figure out what that being was and go after it, since it presents a major fundamental threat to Equestria and the world.  That tells me the being doesn't exist in the cartoon.

You misunderstand; that's not what i'm arguing. I'm saying it literally doesn't matter here if the comics are in direct connection with the show, for the purposes of this argument. Because, whether or not they are, they're still canon to MLP as a whole; any evidence offered with them is legitimate, whether or not it occurs in the show. Similar to how composite Superman and Batman can include evidence from anything from the comics, to the Justice League cartoons, to the Dark Knight series and Man of Steel; as long as one isn't specifically specified, any of the material from any of those mediums could be used, and still carry their own legitimacy. The same rules apply here, specifically because OP never mentioned using just show canon to begin with. Both sides are valid.

[Shiny 54]

Luna. She IS best princess.

I mean, just look at how powerful she looks here.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Hearsay.  Staff members, writers, etc...  have been contradicted too many times in the past for this to be taken as law.  Sorry, but when staff members are contradicted so frequently, 'take what they say with a grain of salt' is the only sensible response to anything they say.

 

 

 

 

Again, refer to my post about Superman and Batman.  I've already covered this three times, and I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself again.

 

 

 

 

As you say, a shout out to the comics.  Fanservice.  Advertising at best.  If the two were truly in continuity with one another, the being in the comics would have been referenced  and pursued since it friggin possessed one of the mane six.  If it happened in canon with the show, there would have been an arc about them going after it to at least find out what it was, if nothing else.  But there wasn't.  There was no arc related to it, and none of the characters showed even the slightest amount of interest in it.  Why?  Because it didn't happen in the show.

 

You could make the argument that characters like Doomsday showed up in the Justice League cartoon, but that doesn't mean the cartoon is in continuity with the Prime universe.  Franchises do this all the time.  It's how they keep fans engaged without having one medium interfere with the other.

 

Contradictions you have yet to provide any evidence of. You want me to rely on your hearsay so I won't use a quote to prove my point?

 

Again, Superman and Batman's context are different from Celestia and Luna, there's nothing in FIM lore to support it, and it's nothing but a fallacy.

 

Meh, you really have no idea for what is called 'B canon' do you? Because the op never stated 'no comics allowed' and that Hasbro considers the comics canon, I'm allowed to use it whether you like it or not. As Fractured and I had said, DHX is under no obligation and in fact may be encouraged by Hasbro not to directly reference any comics story so as to not confuse or even annoy the audience with bringing in a story into an episode the show has nothing to do with. In fact, it's actually bad writing if you bring in something from another source without having it be given it's own explanation, which not only will buy up time in the limited 22 minute format, but it's far more preferable to a writer if they treat the comics as their own self contained portion of FIM's lore so they won't have to worry themselves of some details in the lore. You can bring up at how the show makes no direct reference to a comic's story, but the comics are considered 'b canon' by Hasbro and everyone else and thus they don't have to be included into the show's A canon to be considered to have happened in FIM's lore as Hasbro wishes.

 

 

You're now throwing in red herring fallacies into your case as DC animated verse is considered to be in it's own separate universe compared to the DC comics, which is a completely different circumstance from FIM's canon situation.

[Concerned Bystander 2,902]

 

 

Really, you have yet to provide anything to go against any of my points other than conjectures, fallacies, and personal beliefs with no backing from anything in FIM to indicate Luna is stronger than Celestia. I on the other hand have shown:

 

...absolutely nothing.

 

Your 'exhibits A-G' prove exactly nothing.  When the point of this particular argument is whether or not external sources can be considered canon to the cartoon, using those same disputed sources as evidence of their own canonicity without any reference to the cartoon is simply not any sort of argument.

 

Those arguing against the canonicity of the external material withing the cartoon on the other hand are using the cartoon itself as the basis of our argument, something that you are yet to offer any valid counter to.

 

 

 

I'm actually curious what this has to do with the argument. I hope you realize that even the show and the comics not being canon to each other wouldn't make the comics non-canon; it would literally just mean these things didn't happen in the show. And OP never specified which canon to use proving this; both A canon and B canon are very much viable here.

 

The very nature of 'canon' means that you cannot have two independent canon streams within the same fictional universe.  If there is no variation between the two then the canon is one and the same, however if there are variances then one would have to be considered an alternate of the other.  That then turns the original question into two separate questions, one regarding the cartoon, and the other regarding the comics.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

...absolutely nothing.

 

Your 'exhibits A-G' prove exactly nothing.  When the point of this particular argument is whether or not external sources can be considered canon to the cartoon, using those same disputed sources as evidence of their own canonicity without any reference to the cartoon is simply not any sort of argument.

 

Those arguing against the canonicity of the external material withing the cartoon on the other hand are using the cartoon itself as the basis of our argument, something that you are yet to offer any valid counter to.

 

 

 

 

The very nature of 'canon' means that you cannot have two independent canon streams within the same fictional universe.  If there is no variation between the two then the canon is one and the same, however if there are variances then one would have to be considered an alternate of the other.  That then turns the original question into two separate questions, one regarding the cartoon, and the other regarding the comics.

 

Let me say is this, the op of this post never said that comics weren't allowed to be used to debate with. The comics are b canon as evidenced from what I posed and others have said so thus I can use them.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Nuke87654

[Fractured 2,684]

The very nature of 'canon' means that you cannot have two independent canon streams within the same fictional universe.  If there is no variation between the two then the canon is one and the same, however if there are variances then one would have to be considered an alternate of the other.  That then turns the original question into two separate questions, one regarding the cartoon, and the other regarding the comics.

Actually, you very much can. Going back to my Batman argument, The Dark Knight Series, Batman the Animated Series, and The Batman comics are all apart of the same universe (DC), even though they're not all canon to each other. It all just depends on specification, or which canon you mean in particular. And in this case, none was specified; the title only specifically asks to determine who's stronger between Princess Luna and Princess Celestia. There is no case in which you can bias the show to the comics here.

 

edit: I should mention here that even in this case, the comics have still a stronger connection to the comics than even the Batman argument above, in that they're based directly off of the source material. The connection would be more similar to the movies Lion King's connection to the new show The Lion Guard than the former.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Fractured

[SBaby 660]

Let me say is this, the op of this post never said that comics weren't allowed to be used to debate with. The comics are b canon as evidenced from what I posed and others have said so thus I can use them.

 

I know what you're trying to say, but the thing about the show and comics is you've got a Prime universe (which is the show, since it predated anything else that was created based on it, also known as the source material) and AU (alternate universe) settings which would be any other material that hasn't been directly covered in the show, but was instead inspired by events in the show.  As long as the two have major differences, it is impossible to consider them to be in continuity with one another.  And since we've seen in the show that there are major differences (as I've stated above), there is no way the two could be the same universe, regardless of how much people want them to be.  This is a fundamental truth that exists in every franchise that has multiple mediums.  They're not directly connected, but instead one is inspired by the other.

 

As for your post here, what I have stated is the reason why the show and comics are discussed in two separate sections on the site.  Because they often have little to nothing to do with one another.  Were they to take place in the same universe, then it would be more sensible to have them both be one section.  But this is simply not the case.

Edited March 23, 2016 by SBaby

[Nuke87654 1,849]

I know what you're trying to say, but the thing about the show and comics is you've got a Prime universe (which is the show, since it predated anything else that was created based on it) and AU (alternate universe) settings which would be any other material that hasn't been directly covered in the show.  As long as the two have major differences, it is impossible to consider them to be in continuity with one another.  And since we've seen in the show that there are major differences (as I've stated above), there is no way the two could be the same universe, regardless of how much people want them to be.  This is a fundamental truth that exists in every franchise that has multiple mediums.

 

This is the reason why the show and comics are discussed in two separate sections on the site.  Because they often have little to nothing to do with one another.  Were they to take place in the same universe, then it would be more sensible to have them both be one section.  But this is simply not the case.

 

 

You mean the pilot comic issue where Chrysalis kidnapped the CMC's? The one that published in 2012 which won't be another three years till the show gave the CMC's their cutie marks? If that's your big point in how it would contradict with the comics and show, that's not a good one.

 

In the comics and FIM in general, they're not an au  as it's apparent the comics are meant to fill in the same timeline as what the show's own takes place in hence why the show is canon a to the canon b. Because of this, both are canon and neither have to directly reference any of their stories as by Hasbro's view, they both happened and are in the same FIM timeline. I mean, Fractured made a good point for how it would be preferential to separate their stories from each other as Hasbro would not want to reference a story that is only exclusive to the comics that many in the audience are not going to immediately pick up on unless they're a comic reader. It is a bad form of writing to make such a point without devoting the episode's limited time explaining to the audience for what they're talking about and it would require the writer to read up on the comics lore, which unless you're a long devoted writer like say Amy Keating Rogers was, you're not going to bother learning much outside of the media you're writing for if you plan to stay for a short time.

 

Or it could be the site's choice and not because the comics and show are in two different universes as you're saying.

[MysticShine 529]

Celestia's probably stronger because she has a thousand years on her sister. However, Luna may be a better fighter for all we know.

[SBaby 660]

 

 

Or it could be the site's choice and not because the comics and show are in two different universes as you're saying.

 

The site split the two, because they ARE in two universes, AU (Animated Universe), and CU (Comic Universe).  If they were in the same universe, the events of both would be portrayed in each medium.  If you can show me where every instance in the comics is covered in the cartoon, then you will have proven your point.  Otherwise, you have no case.