Who is stronger: Princess Luna or Princess Celestia?

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

you're refusing to listen to anything I say due to being very biased for Luna as you don't want your headcanon disproven. I feel you cannot be reasoned with no matter what I say and I do not wish to argue with someone who does not wish to learn anything that contradicts their viewpoints.

 

Isn't that exactly what you're doing as well?  As am I, Key Sharkz and pretty much everyone else.

 

I at least will admit that in addition to the evidence of the show there is also an element of personal preference in my argument.  The whole possession thing strikes me as being fairly weak storytelling, it's right down there with 'They woke up and realised the whole thing was a dream'.  The idea that Luna had to accept accountability for, and come to terms with, her own actions makes for a much more engaging story, and as much as i love the comics, they idea they put forward that there was an external force at work diminishes Luna's struggle and her entire backstory and development.

 

The fact that the cartoon supports my preferred explanation is just a happy coincidence.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Concerned Bystander

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Isn't that exactly what you're doing as well?  As am I, Key Sharkz and pretty much everyone else.

 

I at least will admit that in addition to the evidence of the show there is also an element of personal preference in my argument.  The whole possession thing strikes me as being fairly weak storytelling, it's right down there with 'They woke up and realised the whole thing was a dream'.  The idea that Luna had to accept accountability for, and come to terms with, her own actions makes for a much more engaging story, and as much as i love the comics, they idea they put forward that there was an external force at work diminishes Luna's struggle and her entire backstory and development.

 

The fact that the cartoon supports my preferred explanation is just a happy coincidence.

Whether you like it or not, and trust me I don't for the reasons you stated, but Hasbro gave the comics permission to write the story and that's how it is written and accepted in lore. I'm not going to refuse it considering the canoncity of the comics and trust me, if it were up to me I would put it into a separate spot away from anything the show has done, but like I said a fan's wish such as mine means nothing to what Hasbro does with FIM lore and I'm not going to refuse it because that's how it is and how the op allowed it to be used here.

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

Whether you like it or not, and trust me I don't for the reasons you stated, but Hasbro gave the comics permission to write the story and that's how it is written and accepted in lore. I'm not going to refuse it considering the canoncity of the comics and trust me, if it were up to me I would put it into a separate spot away from anything the show has done, but like I said a fan's wish such as mine means nothing to what Hasbro does with FIM lore and I'm not going to refuse it because that's how it is and how the op allowed it to be used here.

 

The opinions and announcements of Hasbro as a corporate entity, any given writer, and even Faust almighty herself mean precisely squat if they don't actually get incorporated in-universe.  You're letting yourself get tied up in what a few individuals are saying and are ignoring the only evidence that actually matters, that which we see within the MLP universe in the cartoon itself.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Concerned Bystander

[Nuke87654 1,849]

The opinions and announcements of Hasbro as a corporate entity, any given writer, and even Faust almighty herself mean precisely squat if they don't actually get incorporated in-universe.  You're letting yourself get tied up in what a few individuals are saying and are ignoring the only evidence that actually matters, that which we see within the MLP universe in the cartoon itself.

Hasbro, the owner of the franchise and one who monitors what stuff is being into anything FIM word doesn't matter? Explain how?

 

I don't agree because the word of a major writer stating that's what Hasbro is the most compelling argument for it. Another thing to note is that Hasbro views everything officially licensed by them is canon. This a thing that Hasbro has done with their works like transformers and now FIM where anything they officially license is canon in some form with the only rule being they're all b canon to the progenitor (usually the show) a canon to ensure that if anything contradicts the progenitor directly, it will take priority over the offending b canon.

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

Hasbro, the owner of the franchise and one who monitors what stuff is being into anything FIM word doesn't matter? Explain how?

 

I don't agree because the word of a major writer stating that's what Hasbro is the most compelling argument for it. Another thing to note is that Hasbro views everything officially licensed by them is canon. This a thing that Hasbro has done with their works like transformers and now FIM where anything they officially license is canon in some form with the only rule being they're all b canon to the progenitor (usually the show) a canon to ensure that if anything contradicts the progenitor directly, it will take priority over the offending b canon.

 

All of this is exactly my point.  They have complete control over the franchise, and therefore can decide what does and (more importantly in this case) doesn't get incorporated, and they have actively made the decision to not incorporate any of the plot elements from the comic into the cartoon.  Where this decision causes conflict between the separate media (and the evidence of said conflict is all over this thread) then they can't possibly be describing a single, unified continuity.

 

This in turn causes the question posed in the OP to become two separate questions, or rather the same question asked twice, once for the cartoon continuity, and again for the comic continuity.  The answers to those two questions are not obviously the same, given that the mechanism behind Luna's transformation is not common to both continuities.  In the comics, it would seem apparent that Celestia is indeed the stronger, but in the cartoon, even though it is by no means axiomatic that Luna is stronger, there is a better argument to be made for that being the case.

 

Of course the argument itself is entirely academic, with no hope of actual resolution, because there is no empirical evidence one way or the other.  In the end it comes down to little more than 'my dad could beat your dad up', and unless they actually have any cause to fight then there is no way to determine the fact of the matter.

 

It has been an interesting discussion but has long since been circling around the same disputed ground, and I can't see anyone giving in to the other viewpoint.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

All of this is exactly my point.  They have complete control over the franchise, and therefore can decide what does and (more importantly in this case) doesn't get incorporated, and they have actively made the decision to not incorporate any of the plot elements from the comic into the cartoon.  Where this decision causes conflict between the separate media (and the evidence of said conflict is all over this thread) then they can't possibly be describing a single, unified continuity.

 

This in turn causes the question posed in the OP to become two separate questions, or rather the same question asked twice, once for the cartoon continuity, and again for the comic continuity.  The answers to those two questions are not obviously the same, given that the mechanism behind Luna's transformation is not common to both continuities.  In the comics, it would seem apparent that Celestia is indeed the stronger, but in the cartoon, even though it is by no means axiomatic that Luna is stronger, there is a better argument to be made for that being the case.

 

Of course the argument itself is entirely academic, with no hope of actual resolution, because there is no empirical evidence one way or the other.  In the end it comes down to little more than 'my dad could beat your dad up', and unless they actually have any cause to fight then there is no way to determine the fact of the matter.

 

It has been an interesting discussion but has long since been circling around the same disputed ground, and I can't see anyone giving in to the other viewpoint.

 

Than explain why Andy Price said the comics were canon according to Hasbro? Also the Op never mentioned that the comics weren't allowed to be discussed here. In a debate, if nothing has been stated to not be allowed, I can use it.

 

This is why I'm getting tired of this debate because it feels no matter what I say or how many evidences I gathered to prove my case, you and Sbaby won't listen to anything I say because it directly goes against your interpretation of Luna that none of you are willing to change anytime soon.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Nuke87654

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

Than explain why Andy Price said the comics were canon according to Hasbro?

 

You know my opinion on this, but to refresh your memory, announcements do not mean anything at all if they do not translate into scenes in the cartoon, they're just empty words unless acted upon.

 

Also the Op never mentioned that the comics weren't allowed to be discussed here

 

That is why I said that the OP becomes two questions, and provided an answer for both of them, please try to keep up.

 

This is why I'm getting tired of this debate because it feels no matter what I say or how many evidences I gathered to prove my case, you and Sbaby won't listen to anything I say because it directly goes against your interpretation of Luna that none of you are willing to change anytime soon.

 

Perhaps that is because what you call evidence amounts to nothing, hence the reason that our positions have not changed, because there is nothing at all in the cartoon that supports your position.

 

Feel free to interpret things your own way, that's the beauty of fiction after all, there doesn't need to be one all encompassing way to enjoy the program.  Just don't try to tell me that my view is wrong and then complain when you can't provide anything to make me change my mind.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Concerned Bystander

[Sunny Fox 5,932]

Regardless of the canonicity of the comics (I don't consider them canon, especially the Nightmare Rarity arc, which was pretty much rendered inaccurate as far as show continuity goes by Twilight viewing the events of the Luna--> Nightmare Moon transition in the Season 4 Premiere Princess Twilight Sparkle, without any "moon beings" being involved), the Journal of the Two Sisters apparently (I haven't read it personally) states that Celestia is a stronger fighter than Luna. That means Celestia would have the edge in a confrontation between the two, so Celestia is stronger than Luna, all other things considered. You can probably create a scenario where one or the other would have an edge, but given a purely level playing field, I'm quite happy to accept that Celestia would win out. Luna is still best Princess, though.  :vsTALhM:

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

Regardless of the canonicity of the comics (I don't consider them canon, especially the Nightmare Rarity arc, which was pretty much rendered inaccurate as far as show continuity goes by Twilight viewing the events of the Luna--> Nightmare Moon transition in the Season 4 Premiere Princess Twilight Sparkle, without any "moon beings" being involved), the Journal of the Two Sisters apparently (I haven't read it personally) states that Celestia is a stronger fighter than Luna. That means Celestia would have the edge in a confrontation between the two, so Celestia is stronger than Luna, all other things considered. You can probably create a scenario where one or the other would have an edge, but given a purely level playing field, I'm quite happy to accept that Celestia would win out. Luna is still best Princess, though.  :vsTALhM:

 

I'm inclined to agree, although I think that Luna in her full, unfettered, Nightmare Moon-esque wrath would at least make it an interesting fight.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Concerned Bystander

[Sunny Fox 5,932]

I'm inclined to agree, although I think that Luna in her full, unfettered, Nightmare Moon-esque wrath would at least make it an interesting fight.

Oh, I think it's pretty clear Nightmare Moon beats Celestia, but whether NMM is a literal "powered-up" form of Luna or merely a removal of her willingness to hold back the strength she has naturally, is up in the air. Plus it gets really annoying when someone says "but the comics prove this" when I'm trying to make an argument based on the evidence given in the show. I much prefer to keep the comic' and the show's canons separate.

 

And to be honest, yeah, I've seen statements that Andy Price made that both say the comic are canon until proven otherwise, but he's also gone on record saying you can discard the comic continuity if you like.

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

 

 

Plus it gets really annoying when someone says "but the comics prove this" when I'm trying to make an argument based on the evidence given in the show. I much prefer to keep the comic' and the show's canons separate.

 

If you've read the preceding comments then you'll be well aware of just how much a bone of contention that is.

[Sunny Fox 5,932]

If you've read the preceding comments then you'll be well aware of just how much a bone of contention that is.

For sure. Heck, I devoted a whole blog post to it...https://mlpforums.com/blog/1083/entry-12738-are-the-friendship-is-magic-comics-canon/

 

Please forgive me the shameless self-aggrandizement

[Nuke87654 1,849]

I'm inclined to agree, although I think that Luna in her full, unfettered, Nightmare Moon-esque wrath would at least make it an interesting fight.

You agree with him that Celestia is stronger than Luna when the journal of the two sisters was one of my key points to my case for it!?

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

That Celestia is probably the stronger has been my position right from the start (take a look back if you don't believe me), my dispute is purely that Nightmare Moon is simply and alter-ego of Luna, and not a separate entity, which gives some weight to the possibility that Luna could very well be stronger, at least in certain circumstances. And 'The Journal of the Two Sisters' had no part to play in that, as entertaining as the book as, it does throw some discontinuities into play.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Concerned Bystander

[Nuke87654 1,849]

That Celestia is probably the stronger has been my position right from the start (take a look back if you don't believe me), my dispute is purely that Nightmare Moon is simply and alter-ego of Luna, and not a separate entity, which gives some weight to the possibility that Luna could very well be stronger, at least in certain circumstances. And 'The Journal of the Two Sisters' had no part to play in that, as entertaining as the book as, it does throw some discontinuities into play.

That you've never proven other than some personal interpretation that goes against what Hasbro allowed IDW to create to explain more on Nightmare Moon. Should I take a personal conjecture of when Nightmare Moon declared herself as she is not Luna as she said on the show as I can interpret it as Nightmare forces having complete possession of her and have taken over mind and body. The journal of the two sisters was actually shown to exist on the show in the episode castle-mania so the journal does exist on the show and thus the contents can be considered canon. As for the part of the Alicorn birth problem, here's some points to consider:

 

A. Amy went on twitter to explain to fans that they've discussed that Celestia and Luna were born Alicorns with the staff.

 

B. Josh Haber didn't confirm that part of the journal was retconned as he allowed fans to banter over whether it's canon or not.

 

C. It can also be interpreted as Celestia and Luna having no knowledge on baby alicorns can be concieved naturaly. Thus it would mean there is a special circumstance or so for it to happen. Also helps that they never had any foals themselves.

 

D. Even if that part of them being born alicorns is retconned, it's only for them being natural born alicorns. The rest of the book is still valid.

 

 

I see no basis on Luna 'being stronger in certain circumstance' as plenty of evidence contradicts that personal interpretation by what Hasbro had allowed IDW to write as part of FIM canon. Also you still have no explanation for how Luna got such a power but Celestia did not, especially considering Celestia's appetite for magic. Until I actually see the show directly retconning it via stating or showing it as such that cannot be left open to personal interpretation such as the Princess Twilight episode as it left no impression that Luna was transforming into some alter ego as I can interpret it as the nightmare forces taking over too. Whether you want to admit it or not, because the op never said no comics allowed, it can be used here in this topic.

 

You know on second thought, you admitting my case that celestia is stronger to me has renewed my interest here as some progress happened so I'll continue to debate at my leisure.

[SBaby 660]

You know on second thought, you admitting my case that celestia is stronger to me has renewed my interest here as some progress happened so I'll continue to debate at my leisure.

 

Ok, but the comics still aren't canon to the show, even if you believe Celestia is stronger than Luna.

 

Though to be fair, without Luna's NMM persona drawing upon her maximum potential, I could believe that Celestia is stronger.  But much like Fei being stronger than Ramsus with Id, the fact remains that Luna HAS the NMM persona and with that, she is stronger than Celestia.  You can't ignore this.  That is part of what she is.  To disregard NMM is to ignore the entire basis that led to Twilight befriending the mane six in the first place.  Bear in mind that at the end of the second part of the series premiere, Celestia stated she knew all along and THAT was the reason she sent Twilight.  If she were really stronger than Luna, she would have single-handedly mopped the floor with NMM as soon as she appeared, instead of endangering her own subjects.

Edited April 4, 2016 by SBaby

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

 

 

You know on second thought, you admitting my case that celestia is stronger to me has renewed my interest here as some progress happened so I'll continue to debate at my leisure.

 

I haven't 'admitted' anything, this was my position right from the beginning.  No progress here.

 

 

 

There are certainly good cases for both, but I'm inclined to say Celestia is probably the stronger. That being said, whatever Luna lacks in power she probably makes up for in raw fury.

 

That was my very first comment on this thread, long before this endless discussion about canon even began.  That position has never changed.

 

The 'certain circumstances' that I referred to, is the fact that although Celestia may be stronger in general, we have seen that Luna, at the very height of her emotion-fueled power (ie. as Nightmare Moon) is capable of besting her.  This is evidenced by the fact that Celestia had to employ the elements of harmony, a source of power external to her own, in order to defeat her.

Ok, but the comics still aren't canon to the show, even if you believe Celestia is stronger than Luna.

 

Though to be fair, without Luna's NMM persona drawing upon her maximum potential, I could believe that Celestia is stronger.  But much like Fei being stronger than Ramsus with Id, the fact remains that Luna HAS the NMM persona and with that, she is stronger than Celestia.  You can't ignore this.  That is part of what she is.  To disregard NMM is to ignore the entire basis that led to Twilight befriending the mane six in the first place.  Bear in mind that at the end of the second part of the series premiere, Celestia stated she knew all along and THAT was the reason she sent Twilight.  If she were really stronger than Luna, she would have single-handedly mopped the floor with NMM as soon as she appeared, instead of endangering her own subjects.

 

I agree with all of this (Except for the the whole Fei and Rasmus thing, because I have no idea who they are, but I'm sure it's a good point anyway).

[DANUTERCISD 202]

they have equal power. imo

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Ok, but the comics still aren't canon to the show, even if you believe Celestia is stronger than Luna.

 

Though to be fair, without Luna's NMM persona drawing upon her maximum potential, I could believe that Celestia is stronger.  But much like Fei being stronger than Ramsus with Id, the fact remains that Luna HAS the NMM persona and with that, she is stronger than Celestia.  You can't ignore this.  That is part of what she is.  To disregard NMM is to ignore the entire basis that led to Twilight befriending the mane six in the first place.  Bear in mind that at the end of the second part of the series premiere, Celestia stated she knew all along and THAT was the reason she sent Twilight.  If she were really stronger than Luna, she would have single-handedly mopped the floor with NMM as soon as she appeared, instead of endangering her own subjects.

I' am not ignoring NMM, I just don't agree with your interpretation of it based on what FIM has shown. The power difference between NMM and Celestia is much greater than you give credit as NMM banished and sealed Celestia inside the moon without the elements of harmony (she was wondering where it was and wanted to find them in the NMM au). Celestia herself needed the elements of harmony just to do the same in comparison.

 

So when we're talking about a power difference, NMM is significantly more powerful than Celestia and is just below her with the elements of harmony. So no even if Celestia is significantly more powerful than Luna, NMM is such a huge power boost to Luna that it borders on how did she get such a form feasibly. NMM's power is why I believe possession is more feasible than some hidden power because we're not talking about some normal power up, we're talking about NMM can suddenly kick her more studious sister around like a ragdoll power wise. It would require some headcanon work that Luna was concieved to be some weapon or something and considering we have nothing to support it possession is the the most logical one considering what FIM has shown.

[Se7en 1]

It's obviously Luna since she is also Nightmare Moon who defeated Celestia and needed to be sealed away.

[Ninjaed 526]

I would say: YMMV. Sure, Nightmare Moon did "defeat" Celestia... A Celestia who wasn't even trying to fight back and was only running away to avoid a confrontation with her sister gone mad. So is one stronger? Maybe, but it's currently impossible to tell. Celestia used the elements of harmony afterwards to banish Nightmare Moon, to ensure she'd have the necessary power to do so, and wait for a way to bring her sister back to reason.

 

So all we know is: Celestia wasn't "strong" enough to keep on dodging, and Celestia + rainbow power >> Nightmare Moon.

 

Oh, and as for the alternate universe, IIRC, we don't know whether Celestia tried to fight back, or couldn't bring herself to once again. So either Nightmare Moon is more powerful, or we can't tell.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Ninjaed

[Sonic5421 423]

Well, I'm kind of in-between with this argument. Both Royal Sisters have shown various abilities in the series, but both have, in certain occasions I won't go into detail about, (*COUGH*) To Where and Back Again (*COUGH*), been unable to be there when Equestria needed them the most during modern time threats.

 

Now granted, if they were given a chance to prove themselves in an episode, especially one just to themselves, I'm pretty sure Celestia and Luna are very strong, but with Celestia being the older of the two, she would be the stronger one due to age, wisdom, and a knowledge well beyond her years if one remembers she studied under Star Swirl the Bearded.

[Okamirrar 0]

On 15/4/2014 at 1:55 PM, Mywas said:

Which of the two royal sisters do you think is stronger? And please explain why

i'd Say luna, due to that she made a whole species, The bat ponys / vamp ponys. and that she travels througt dreams, so far what i have seen luna seems alot more powerfull than celestia, or celestia simply just doesent care

[darkwingmare 1,296]

Both are useless since they can't even defend themselves, like in the

Spoiler

movie

and in every season ever. They let the Mane 6 or somebody else save them, ALWAYS. SOME alicorns ey. xD I've for once never seen them fight properly except for with each other and in that alternate dimension, whereas they also made the small ponies fight for them. But I suppose Celestia is a little stronger than Luna since she banned her(with extra power included since she was Nightmare Moon), to the moon for thousands of years.

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by darkwingmare

[Foxy Socks 2,596]

Well it would make sense they are equally as strong. It's a bit difficult to tell, but it seems likely as they are skilled in different areas as well.