Who is stronger: Princess Luna or Princess Celestia?

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

 

 

I should probably start off by mentioning that i'm fully aware this an unprovable headcanon, hence "lending more evidence." I'm not really offering it up as a point, but rather just talking about my own thoughts. As for everything else, though...

I have no problem with that. In my headcanon, Celestia would floor anyone that messed with her under normal circumstances. The problem is that this thread is about the canon characters. No one cares about what I think.

 

 

 

I'll address these both. Canon (ala comics)  is that, due to Luna's own jealousy and hatred, she gave herself over to the Nightmare forces, a group of beings who feed on that energy, and give the possesse power in exchange. Said forces aren't really just restricted to Luna; over the course of the story, they also manage to take over Rarity, giving rise to Nightmare Rarity.

In the cartoon, "Do Princesses Dream of Magical Sheep",  Luna speaks of herself as Nightmare Moon and owns the things that happened as her own doing. I see no reason for her to do this if she wasn't in control.

 

 

 

Even if that was the case, it still requires massive amounts of energy in order to move it. It's pretty clear just by looking at the show itself that the sun and moon have no ability to move themselves anywhere without the help of someone manipulating them, putting all the work on Celestia and Luna, or before them, the unicorn tribe. As far as lore goes, I rather like it, personally; it's mysterious, and it shows a very high level of respect for Celestia, that she's willing to thank something even when she has no need to. (And, yes, Luna does go through something similar).

You can't know how much energy it takes to move either the sun or the moon. And I'm not convinced that the sun and the moon can't move on their own. Is Celestia moving the sun little by little as the day progresses? Does it require only an initial push to start it's path in the sky? Or does she fling it across the sky with such perfection that it keeps an orbit or whatever? Yes, it's mysterious, but it doesn't help in a discussion about which of the two sisters is more powerful. And how do you know that she doesn't need to thank it? Do you thank the light switch very often? Believe me, I much rather believe that Celestia could floor Luna if they were to fight or somehow test their magic might one against the other and that Celestia effectively owns the sun and ponies better be thankful that she is nice enough to move it around for them (most likely because she likes them...). But I can't say that based on canon, even if it "feels right".

 

 

 

And, on an additional note, Twilight Sparkle and Discord have both moved the sun, and with way less exertion than Luna underwent, making it legitimately an issue of magical power, and not special permissions:

We don't know why is Luna struggling with it in that comic. We don't know if it takes Celestia less effort because the sun is letting her do it, if it's because she's magically stronger or even if because she simply has more experience at it. If that was true, what happened during Nightmare Moon? Why didn't Celestia just move the moon out of the way and be done with it? We don't know if it was easy or hard for Celestia to move Luna's moon every night. Discord... I don't know. He operates on the "Rule of Funny". Things happen because they are funny. In one episode Celestia is powerless and in the next she casts a spell to keep him from messing with the Elements. He's a wildcard that I just can't factor in.

 

 

 

Because it shows that Celestia, not only being an avid reader, scholar, and teacher, is much more interested in magic overall than her sister, which is a measure of power. It doesn't exactly pertain to their magical limits, but if Celestia were to ever come at Luna in a serious fashion, that amount of versatility on tap would give her a pretty large edge, even if the power was lacking (And i'm arguing that it's very plainly not.)

Unless you can prove that Nightmare Moon is a different entity, all this is saying is that with less education and training Luna manages to beat Celestia as Nightmare Moon. (Not really, though, as will admit later.)

 

 

 

I pretty much already gave my spheel on that, and while it is headcanon that Celestia was just baiting NMM to the room with the elements, it's pretty obvious just from watching that Celestia wasn't critically injured (No bruising, no labored walking, no panting, could still fly, etc.). As for the alternate timeline, we really don't have enough information to make it solid that NMM beat Celestia through raw force, especially considering that in the main timeline, she absolutely refused to throw even a single shot at her, and that, in the first and second episodes, she was also beaten, absent any of the things we would probably associate with a grand mal alicorn battle (explosions, high level spells, screaming, running, etc.). Not to mention, Luna and Nightmare Moon are separate entities, so what one did can't legitimately apply to the other.

It's not pretty obvious because people have different interpretations and all of them are meaningless because we can can't know what the character is thinking (it actually isn't thinking unless the cartoon tells us) and she was knocked unconscious. If her enemy wasn't following a script that caused her to fly off for no apparent reason, Celestia would be dead.

 

But, that is true. We don't know how did Nightmare Moon defeat Celestia in the alternate timeline. Still, I don't know what you're talking about alicorn battles. I never really seem and neither have you. I already talked about Nightmare Moon and in the end it's not really important. If anything you've convinced me that I can't say that Luna is stronger just because she "defeated" Celestia as Nightmare Moon. After all, the two never really fought, as far as we know.

[Castle Bleck 19,167]

I have no problem with that. In my headcanon, Celestia would floor anyone that messed with her under normal circumstances. The problem is that this thread is about the canon characters. No one cares about what I think.

 

 

 

In the cartoon, "Do Princesses Dream of Magical Sheep",  Luna speaks of herself as Nightmare Moon and owns the things that happened as her own doing. I see no reason for her to do this if she wasn't in control.

 

 

 

You can't know how much energy it takes to move either the sun or the moon. And I'm not convinced that the sun and the moon can't move on their own. Is Celestia moving the sun little by little as the day progresses? Does it require only an initial push to start it's path in the sky? Or does she fling it across the sky with such perfection that it keeps an orbit or whatever? Yes, it's mysterious, but it doesn't help in a discussion about which of the two sisters is more powerful. And how do you know that she doesn't need to thank it? Do you thank the light switch very often? Believe me, I much rather believe that Celestia could floor Luna if they were to fight or somehow test their magic might one against the other and that Celestia effectively owns the sun and ponies better be thankful that she is nice enough to move it around for them (most likely because she likes them...). But I can't say that based on canon, even if it "feels right".

 

 

 

We don't know why is Luna struggling with it in that comic. We don't know if it takes Celestia less effort because the sun is letting her do it, if it's because she's magically stronger or even if because she simply has more experience at it. If that was true, what happened during Nightmare Moon? Why didn't Celestia just move the moon out of the way and be done with it? We don't know if it was easy or hard for Celestia to move Luna's moon every night. Discord... I don't know. He operates on the "Rule of Funny". Things happen because they are funny. In one episode Celestia is powerless and in the next she casts a spell to keep him from messing with the Elements. He's a wildcard that I just can't factor in.

 

 

 

Unless you can prove that Nightmare Moon is a different entity, all this is saying is that with less education and training Luna manages to beat Celestia as Nightmare Moon. (Not really, though, as will admit later.)

 

 

 

It's not pretty obvious because people have different interpretations and all of them are meaningless because we can can't know what the character is thinking (it actually isn't thinking unless the cartoon tells us) and she was knocked unconscious. If her enemy wasn't following a script that caused her to fly off for no apparent reason, Celestia would be dead.

 

But, that is true. We don't know how did Nightmare Moon defeat Celestia in the alternate timeline. Still, I don't know what you're talking about alicorn battles. I never really seem and neither have you. I already talked about Nightmare Moon and in the end it's not really important. If anything you've convinced me that I can't say that Luna is stronger just because she "defeated" Celestia as Nightmare Moon. After all, the two never really fought, as far as we know.

 

 

Which is why my newest headcanon is that magic has some kind of "rock-paper-scissors" logic to it.

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

Which is why my newest headcanon is that magic has some kind of "rock-paper-scissors" logic to it.

Makes sense to me.

It's a timberwolf! Cast a "fire spell" on it!

It's a water sprite! Cast a "lightning spell" at it!

It's a sun pony-goddess-alicorn-thing! Cast a "night spell" at it!

 

The problem is that this cartoon is like..

It's a logical sequence! Cast a "plothole" at it!

[SBaby 660]

Equestria Girls is part of FIM's show lore. It is however kept seperate from the show's events as one thing the show, eqg, and comics are in their self contained part of FIM where it is all canon but neither of them have to make a direct reference to each other. This is done to ensure that anyone who disagrees with a comics or eqg story won't have to be concerned about it being referenced or shown in the show. The only rule they share is that the show's canon holds priority over all contradictions.

 

Read the part where he says 'according to Hasbro'. This isn't some vague guess, ambigious answer, or an attempt to misdirect the viewer on what major event is going to happen on the show, this was something a major comic book artist was told by DHX's very bosses for the show's production and other assets. Thus it can be attributed to that DHX also recognizes the comics as canon but is under no obligation to pay heed of their stories on their show.

 

I don't mind you saying that Lauren is no longer working on FIM. However, it's point was for me to show that the creator herself envisioned Nightmare Moon as a seperate entity from Luna. Because the show had made no attempts to discredit and the comics had in fact been granted to explain Nightmare Moon and remove the mystery of it in the Nightmare Rarity arc, her word is still a valid claim to use.

 

Again, you're missing the explanation that the show and comics along with other media sources officially licensed by Hasbro operate in their own self contained parts to the same verse in FIM with the only rule being that any contradictions made against the show's lore will have the tv program's own take override it.

 

As I've stated, I've spoken with my evidences for my case that clearly support my belief that the comics are canon and are a seperate part of FIM's lore that the show is spearheading the narration of the series.

 

Well, thank you for proving my point.  The comics and the show cannot occur in the same timeline because there are events in one that contradict events in another.  To claim they're still in the same timeline would be like writing a fanfic,  getting 20 chapters in, and then making a post saying, 'We're going to forget what happened in chapters 3, 7 and 10, and just continue with what we have'.  You can't do that, no matter how you look at it, and it doesn't matter who says what. 

 

But let's pretend for a moment that they are the same universe.  Nightmare Moon STILL cannot be a separate entity from Luna in the cartoon, because we've seen that Luna can turn into NMM at will.  I've stated in the other topic which episode established this, so there's no point in repeating myself.

 

This is why they are one in the same, and why NMM is a second personality that exists within Luna.  And it is why Luna is more powerful than Celestia.  As I said before, Luna's character arc will be complete when she accepts both aspects of herself, and by doing so she will likely become even more powerful than either of these personas were individually.

Edited March 15, 2016 by SBaby

[Justin_Case001 4,857]

I've always imagined them being equal, but I kind of imagine Luna being like Jim when he became co-manager of the office; equal in power and authority, but nopony really buys it.  I've always imagined a scene where Luna is trying to explain to everypony that she's not an assistant ruler, but that she and Celestia are co-rulers.

 

She'd say, "I have every bit as much authority as Celestia, and I can do anything she can do."

 

And then there'd be a bunch of murmurs from the audience, something like, "Oh, yeah, I guess so.  Right, right.   Okay."

 

Then she'd ask, "Who here believes I have as much authority as Celestia?"

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FYtN5jZryM

 

[El Duderino 878]

I think that Celestia is not necessarily stronger, but she is wiser and has more experience. That can make all the difference. 

[Courageous Thunder Dash 7,809]

Just about equal if you ask me. Celestia could be stronger since she's older. 

[Roughshod 719]

Celestia might be stronger because she's older. Then again Luna may have more stamina since she's younger. They have different styles of using their magic so depending on the style of matchup it could vary.

 

I'd still be rooting for Luna though.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Well, thank you for proving my point.  The comics and the show cannot occur in the same timeline because there are events in one that contradict events in another.  To claim they're still in the same timeline would be like writing a fanfic,  getting 20 chapters in, and then making a post saying, 'We're going to forget what happened in chapters 3, 7 and 10, and just continue with what we have'.  You can't do that, no matter how you look at it, and it doesn't matter who says what. 

 

But let's pretend for a moment that they are the same universe.  Nightmare Moon STILL cannot be a separate entity from Luna in the cartoon, because we've seen that Luna can turn into NMM at will.  I've stated in the other topic which episode established this, so there's no point in repeating myself.

 

This is why they are one in the same, and why NMM is a second personality that exists within Luna.  And it is why Luna is more powerful than Celestia.  As I said before, Luna's character arc will be complete when she accepts both aspects of herself, and by doing so she will likely become even more powerful than either of these personas were individually.

 

You're misunderstanding. They do occur in the same timeline and in the same universe as the mountains of evidence I've compiled have said otherwise. They're under no obligation to mention them as it's apparent what it is. No matter how much you try to declare that this is not true or this is true, Hasbro's word >>>>>>>>>> over any fan's wish for what happens in FIM's lore.

 

  You mean the part in Luna eclipsed, it's clear cut an illusion she used to guise herself as nightmare moon even if she herself is not Nightmare Moon. The only thing that Luna revealed is how she can use illusions. Other than that, she showed nothing to indicate that Nightmare Moon and her are the same as she displayed no powers and such. Heck she had to borrow a fake fang set just to get the disguise right which further supports my opinion it was an illusion and not a perfect one as she can't change her teeth to NM's shape. The comics, Luna's and Nightmare Moon's contrast behavior, and Lauren Faust's word, which note, she would be part of the production of that episode I've mentioned, should prove my point. And in Do ponies dream of magic sheep, it was in her dream and nightmare she personally created just so she can personally self inflict herself.

 

So you're defending this as a desire for you to see Luna emerge most powerful just because she has some form that she must learn to control? Okay how about this:

 

 

According to the comics, as you see Celestia glow brightly, she has her own super mode too. Besides, why should Luna, whom according to the Journal of the Two sisters hated to learn magic that involved alot of work and reading compared to Celestia who busted her flank off trying to read all those scrolls and spells and even bantered with Starswirl to discuss about the spells and knowledge they shared should suddenly be stronger than her sister whom worked harder than Luna did to get as powerful as she did? There was a reason why it is canon Nightmare Moon is separate from Luna and it is because it is actually the only logical course for how Luna could beat Celestia as the lore has built Celestia up to be stronger than Luna is. The show itself has done nothing to suggest otherwise while the comics and other media sources have instead built Celestia up to be stronger than Luna.

 

Finally, if you're going to go by Luna's quote of how Celestia cannot enter into dreams, than I will prepare to state, Fiendship is Magic Nightmare Moon issue aptly explained that even in that realm, Celestia's mental defense is more than strong enough to defend against Nightmare Moon despite NM receiving heavy aid from the creatures on the Moon where just one is able to effect a whole city of ponies dreams (hell they may have taught her the ability to go into dreams I believe), a plan to tire her defenses out by forcing Celestia to go and defend the ponies from the many recurring nightmares the denizens of the moon were doing, and even when NM finally broke through Celestia's mind after a tiring effort on Celestia's part, Celestia still kicked her flank out.

[Fractured 2,683]

In the cartoon, "Do Princesses Dream of Magical Sheep",  Luna speaks of herself as Nightmare Moon and owns the things that happened as her own doing. I see no reason for her to do this if she wasn't in control.

If you haven't noticed, Luna has a bit of a massive guilt complex. Not to mention, it was her bitterness and jealousy that led her to make the deal to have the Nightmare forces take over her body. Of course she's guilty; it's her fault, even if it's not her own power.

 

 

You can't know how much energy it takes to move either the sun or the moon. And I'm not convinced that the sun and the moon can't move on their own. Is Celestia moving the sun little by little as the day progresses? Does it require only an initial push to start it's path in the sky? Or does she fling it across the sky with such perfection that it keeps an orbit or whatever? Yes, it's mysterious, but it doesn't help in a discussion about which of the two sisters is more powerful. And how do you know that she doesn't need to thank it? Do you thank the light switch very often? Believe me, I much rather believe that Celestia could floor Luna if they were to fight or somehow test their magic might one against the other and that Celestia effectively owns the sun and ponies better be thankful that she is nice enough to move it around for them (most likely because she likes them...). But I can't say that based on canon, even if it "feels right".

Actually, it's not that difficult to determine how much energy it takes to move celestial bodies (I even have stuff from a few people who have done calculations themselves). But, I don't really think I need that here; it's pretty obvious that the sun and moon go nowhere  without the princesses (I'll point you to either Twilight's Kingdom or Princess Twilight Sparkle for that), and stop when they stop moving them, eliminating both of those scenarios.

 

 

We don't know why is Luna struggling with it in that comic. We don't know if it takes Celestia less effort because the sun is letting her do it, if it's because she's magically stronger or even if because she simply has more experience at it. If that was true, what happened during Nightmare Moon? Why didn't Celestia just move the moon out of the way and be done with it? We don't know if it was easy or hard for Celestia to move Luna's moon every night. 

1. Because it's stretching her magical limits? She wasn't injured or incapacitated during that panel, just covering up for her sister's absence. Perfectly healthy Luna; just struggles to move the sun.

 

2. First one's sketchy, and running on headcanon, despite its possible validity. For the second two, it doesn't matter; if she's more magically experienced to the point where she can do something like that casually, then it's a given she's stronger.

 

 

Unless you can prove that Nightmare Moon is a different entity, all this is saying is that with less education and training Luna manages to beat Celestia as Nightmare Moon. (Not really, though, as will admit later.)

Pretty much already did this. If you want, I can show something that attests to the validity of the comics, but otherwise, this is just beating a dead horse (to use a terribly inappropriate phrasing).

 

Still, I don't know what you're talking about alicorn battles. I never really seem and neither have you. I already talked about Nightmare Moon and in the end it's not really important. If anything you've convinced me that I can't say that Luna is stronger just because she "defeated" Celestia as Nightmare Moon. After all, the two never really fought, as far as we know.

 

Considering the sorts of things that Twilight as Celestia's student was capable of even back in seasons one and two, a whole lot more than what we've seen from them. And your last statement seems to assume that Luna is stronger than Nightmare Moon; that begs the question of not only why Rarity taken over by the nightmare forces was able to casually dismiss her, but why she needed that "power-up" at all.

 

 

 

But let's pretend for a moment that they are the same universe.  Nightmare Moon STILL cannot be a separate entity from Luna in the cartoon, because we've seen that Luna can turn into NMM at will.  I've stated in the other topic which episode established this, so there's no point in repeating myself.

I assume you're talking about this:

In which case, you may want to explain the differences between this transformation and the other. Not to mention, why she needed to fake the fangs (she uses her horseshoe in order to fake them).

[SBaby 660]

In which case, you may want to explain the differences between this transformation and the other. Not to mention, why she needed to fake the fangs (she uses her horseshoe in order to fake them).

 

 

That's likely because she didn't fully transform into the form.  But she did partially transform.  The reason she didn't fully transform is likely because at the time she still didn't have full control over either the form itself (remember, it's a second 'destructor' personality; she isn't going to want to fully bring that out in the middle of a crowd), or she knew she couldn't control the powers that came with it.  So what she did was a smaller, more controlled and localized transformation that changed her more cosmetically than anything else.

 

The problem with using the comics or events in the comics as a reference point is too many things have contradicted one another in both mediums for that to be a reliable reference material when explaining events in the cartoon.  And because of that, any claim that they're canon with one another is not credible, regardless of who makes the claim.

 

A being of such massive-scale proportions that it could take control over one of the most powerful ponies in Equestria is not an event the cartoon would sweep under the rug.  It would be a major fundamental threat to Equestria and the world, and Celestia would have the mane six track down its source and stop it.  To think nothing would be done about it is just unrealistic, even by this show's standards.

Edited March 21, 2016 by SBaby

[Metemponychosis 1,236]

If you haven't noticed, Luna has a bit of a massive guilt complex. Not to mention, it was her bitterness and jealousy that led her to make the deal to have the Nightmare forces take over her body. Of course she's guilty; it's her fault, even if it's not her own power.

I don't think that anyone can see that episode and not notice that. The problem is that Luna is talking about things that "she's done", not things that "she let Nightmare Moon do". I'm aware of the comics, but if the comics say that Luna was possessed, and the episode says (or at least implies) that Luna WAS Nightmare Moon, then the cartoon trumps the comics and books to me. Wherever or not Luna is Nightmare Moon or was possessed, is beyond the point now. Even if Nightmare Moon was stronger than Celestia, it doesn't matter because wherever she was Luna or not, she never really measured her strength against Celestia's.

 

Actually, it's not that difficult to determine how much energy it takes to move celestial bodies (I even have stuff from a few people who have done calculations themselves). But, I don't really think I need that here; it's pretty obvious that the sun and moon go nowhere  without the princesses (I'll point you to either Twilight's Kingdom or Princess Twilight Sparkle for that), and stop when they stop moving them, eliminating both of those scenarios.

I'm talking about their world's sun and moon. If we knew that their sun is the same size as ours and that their moon is the same size as ours, you still can't say that moving one requires more or less energy because these things seem to have a mind of their own, otherwise I can't see a reason for Celestia to thank it for letting her move it. Not to mention that this can work more like a lock and key system than pushing something with sheer magical strength.

 

1. Because it's stretching her magical limits? She wasn't injured or incapacitated during that panel, just covering up for her sister's absence. Perfectly healthy Luna; just struggles to move the sun. 2. First one's sketchy, and running on headcanon, despite its possible validity. For the second two, it doesn't matter; if she's more magically experienced to the point where she can do something like that casually, then it's a given she's stronger.

I've actually answered this already on the last point. But I want to say that you're not necessarily wrong. Your theories just can't be confirmed without invoking headcanon.

 

Considering the sorts of things that Twilight as Celestia's student was capable of even back in seasons one and two, a whole lot more than what we've seen from them. And your last statement seems to assume that Luna is stronger than Nightmare Moon; that begs the question of not only why Rarity taken over by the nightmare forces was able to casually dismiss her, but why she needed that "power-up" at all.

Still, I haven's seen Celestia or Luna or Nightmare Moon fighting each other. What I've seen is Nightmare Moon attacking and Celestia doing nothing. Sure, I've seem Twilight "using the power of all four alicorns against Tirek's, Discord's and all of Equestria, but you have four variables in this equation and no way of knowing, for example, that Cadance isn't more powerful than all other three. You could say that together the four of them are insanely powerful, but that is all. No measure between them.

 

All that statement is saying, is that I'm admitting that I don't have enough evidence to say that Luna is stronger (I was wrong), but I also don't have have enough yet to say that Celestia is stronger. I don't have any way to define which one of them is stronger, specially because I still consider Luna and Nightmare Moon the same.

 

EDIT: there... Answer is complete now. And fixed...

_____________________________________________

Someone needs to start a petition so that DHX makes an episode where the princesses decide they want to know who's stronger because this is going nuts. They could make a little event where ponies would go root for their princess and Pinkie Pie provides narration.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Metemponychosis

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

With regard to the comics being canon or otherwise, it doesn't matter what Hasbro say, the canon of a program is determined in-universe, so an individual saying retrospectively that something is canon does not necessarily make it so if it isn't supported within the program itself.

 

In 'DPDoMS', does it not seem odd that Rarity (or anyone else for that matter) didn't bring up the 'Nightmare Rarity' incident?  And why did nobody mention it?  Because as far as a the program is concerned it never happened.  They had the perfect opportunity to make the comics canon, but chose to keep them separate because they don't want references to the comics within the show to detract from the storyline for those that haven't read the comics.

 

So you can bleat on as much as you like about what Hasbro may have said, but until the actual program itself acknowledges the comic in a meaningful way then they can only be considered to be separate in exactly the same way that EQG has been stated to be canon despite never once being referenced within FiM.  A canon link which has exactly zero impact on one side of the franchise is not a canon link at all.

 

Anyway, as a result of all of this, I choose to accept that Nightmare Moon was not Luna possessed by a third party, but rather an a expression of Luna's rage, and that it was her own uncontrolled fury, not that of another being, that augmented her magic, and brought her to a level on which so was able to fight toe-to-toe with her sister, and barring Celestia's use of the Elements of Harmony, she may even have won.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Concerned Bystander

[Nuke87654 1,849]

With regard to the comics being canon or otherwise, it doesn't matter what Hasbro say, the canon of a program is determined in-universe, so an individual saying retrospectively that something is canon does not necessarily make it so if it isn't supported within the program itself.

 

In 'DPDoMS', does it not seem odd that Rarity (or anyone else for that matter) didn't bring up the 'Nightmare Rarity' incident?  And why did nobody mention it?  Because as far as a the program is concerned it never happened.  They had the perfect opportunity to make the comics canon, but chose to keep them separate because they don't want references to the comics within the show to detract from the storyline for those that haven't read the comics.

 

So you can bleat on as much as you like about what Hasbro may have said, but until the actual program itself acknowledges the comic in a meaningful way then they can only be considered to be separate in exactly the same way that EQG has been stated to be canon despite never once being referenced within FiM.  A canon link which has exactly zero impact on one side of the franchise is not a canon link at all.

 

Anyway, as a result of all of this, I choose to accept that Nightmare Moon was not Luna possessed by a third party, but rather an a expression of Luna's rage, and that it was her own uncontrolled fury, not that of another being, that augmented her magic, and brought her to a level on which so was able to fight toe-to-toe with her sister, and barring Celestia's use of the Elements of Harmony, she may even have won.

 

So you're going to ignore how the head in charge of whatever DHX and IDW puts into FIM simply because it goes against what you believe in? As I said, hasbro's word holds priority over what a fan wishes it to be.

 

Or it could be because the show is under no obligation to enlist the aid of a storyline the comics or the EQG movies have. This is done to ensure a cohesion in the story and not place too much pressure on the writers as they don't have to be concerned with also reading up on the comics or even watch the EQG movies. They only have to focus on what they can think and can be accepted in the show. It's a practice that is done by many series's to maintain an easier cohesion of canon such as Transformers where they have many canon media but choose to only limit themselves to what is available in their own media to maintain better control of what's in their own part of the lore.

 

 

To answer your point on EQG not being referenced in FIM. Similar to the comic writers Oc's being referenced, the EQG character Flash Sentry was referenced in the episode Three's a Crowd in Season 4

Edited March 19, 2016 by Nuke87654

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

So you're going to ignore how the head in charge of whatever DHX and IDW puts into FIM simply because it goes against what you believe in? As I said, hasbro's word holds priority over what a fan wishes it to be.

 

No, I'm not going to ignore what they say because it's against what I want, I'm going to ignore it because it is not supported by any actual evidence or references in the program itself.

Edited March 19, 2016 by Concerned Bystander

[Nuke87654 1,849]

No, I'm not going to ignore what they say because it's against what I want, I'm going to ignore it because it is not supported by any actual evidence or references in the program itself.

 

So what do you think of Flash Sentry and Pony comic writers oc's being referenced in the show?

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

 

 

So what do you think of Flash Sentry and Pony comic writers oc's being referenced in the show?

 

Exactly the same as I think about Twilight Sparkle, Rainbow Dash, Scootaloo and every other character that appears in all three branches of the franchise.

 

If their stories in all three branches are written in such a way that they interconnect then then fine, but as long as FiM is being written to intentionally exclude the other two then I consider them to be entirely separate where either direct or implied contradictions occur.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Exactly the same as I think about Twilight Sparkle, Rainbow Dash, Scootaloo and every other character that appears in all three branches of the franchise.

 

If their stories in all three branches are written in such a way that they interconnect then then fine, but as long as FiM is being written to intentionally exclude the other two then I consider them to be entirely separate where either direct or implied contradictions occur.

 

Which the show has no contradictions for Nightmare Moon to what the comics and others have stated.

[Concerned Bystander 2,901]

Which the show has no contradictions for Nightmare Moon to what the comics and others have stated.

 

No direct contradictions, but the decision to exclude any mention the 'Nightmare forces' at any point in DPDoMS is an implied contradiction because the writers have intentionally left it ambiguous so that those who haven't read the comics can still follow the story without missing important plot references to external matter.

 

Simply put, the comic in many places (not just in the 'Nightmare Rarity' arc, but throughout) relies on the reader having seen the cartoon to be able to pick up the full story.  In contrast to this, someone watching the cartoon does not miss a single thing by not having read the comics.

 

To someone watching the cartoon, without having read the external matter of the comics, the 'Nightmare forces' simply do not exist.  And Luna became Nightmare Moon because of the negative emotions coming from within herself, as stated in the storybook opening in the very first episode.

[Nuke87654 1,849]

No direct contradictions, but the decision to exclude any mention the 'Nightmare forces' at any point in DPDoMS is an implied contradiction because the writers have intentionally left it ambiguous so that those who haven't read the comics can still follow the story without missing important plot references to external matter.

 

Simply put, the comic in many places (not just in the 'Nightmare Rarity' arc, but throughout) relies on the reader having seen the cartoon to be able to pick up the full story.  In contrast to this, someone watching the cartoon does not miss a single thing by not having read the comics.

 

To someone watching the cartoon, without having read the external matter of the comics, the 'Nightmare forces' simply do not exist.  And Luna became Nightmare Moon because of the negative emotions coming from within herself, as stated in the storybook opening in the very first episode.

Negative emotions that were manipulated by an outside force in nightmare moon. Alright how about this angle, you want to know why an outside force actually makes the most sense?

 

Because in the journal of the two sisters, written by amy keating rogers, a now former major show writer on DHX pretty much declared Celestia is the better of the two in magic as Luna hated to study anything that took an active effort for her to learn while Celestia not only studied her butt off to learn magic, but also frequently bantered with starswirl the bearded in such spells in it's use. This is further reinforced where Celestia loves to fly while Luna preferred doing fun things.

 

All this suggests is :

 

A. Celestia knows more about magic than Luna and thus would at least be much more versitle and more practiced.

B. Celestia is likely a better flier too as she liked to fly around for fun, unlike Luna who seemed to prefer to do fun in general.

C. Luna hated studying magic if it was hard to do and wouldn't seek it out if she could.

 

Now here's another point here, in the show's season 5 finale, in nm au timeline, Nightmare Moon banished Celestia to the moon. This is something that Celestia can only do with the elements of harmony This would indicate that Nightmare Moon is stronger than Celestia.

 

Now a problem here with the point that Nightmare Moon is Luna jealousy ridden and rage unbridled is this:

 

A. How she is seemingly significantly stronger than Celestia when a book written by a major show writer stated that Celestia is stronger than Luna magic wise and Celestia was much more willing to study magic than Luna.

 

B. How did Luna acquire the ability and power to banish Celestia to the moon if Celestia can only do that with the elements of harmony? Note using the 'she's connected to the moon' thing is countered by the logic that Celestia should've banished her to the sun.

 

Thus, you can see why I support that Luna was possesed by a seperate entity as it is shown:

 

A. Nightmare Moon possesed Rarity, a normal unicorn magic wise. Rarity recieved such a signifcant power boost that Nightmare Rarity was able to easily beat a depowered Luna. This would show there is a great power boost from such a possession.

 

B. Said power boost and possesion can easily explain my previous points above as it would be the most feasible for how Luna got so much stronger than her much studier sister.

 

Thus through the works of a major DHX writer and matching to the series itself, possesion by a seperate entity is the most logical choice as a Nightmare Moon caused by Luna's jealousy solely has much more holes to it and how it coincides with Luna and Celestia's characters presented and approved to do by Amy.

[Stormlight 1,371]

I say Princess Celestia would be stronger than Princess Luna, there are a couple of evidences that supports it, though I'm not going to go through each and every one.

[SBaby 660]

Negative emotions that were manipulated by an outside force in nightmare moon.

 

Again, if this is the case (which it isn't; no evidence in the show has presented itself to establish that this is the case, and you have not presented any evidence to establish this to be the case either), why hasn't the mane six gone after this supposed entity or being?  If this being is powerful enough to take over one of the most powerful ponies in the land, it would present a major fundamental threat to Equestria and the entire world.  And Celestia would have sent them on a quest to stop it.  Yet nothing has been done about it and it's been ignored in the show to the point where it isn't even mentioned.  Why?

 

The only logical answer is because no such being exists in the cartoon.  It is exclusive to the comics, and the comics alone.

 

Again, since there have been so many things in the show that have contradicted the comics and vice versa, claims that the two are somehow still canon with one another are not credible.  It's like trying to say the Pokemon anime and the Pokemon games are canon with one another (look up the GS Ball in the anime, and you'll see why any claims to such completely fall apart).  It just doesn't work, because they aren't.

 

It almost seems like what you're trying to do is convince people that the comics are in continuity with the show to satisfy your own headcanon.  You're acting like the things in the comics have actually happened in the show.

 

The problem with this is you haven't provided any real evidence to show they are, but merely hearsay from a few people that have been contradicted on other issues numerous times (issues as basic as when Season 6 will premiere), and one or two minor coincidences that don't even amount to anything substantial, beyond a single shot or a moment of about two seconds in the episode.  This is not evidence that any of this has happened in the show.

Edited March 21, 2016 by SBaby

[Nuke87654 1,849]

Again, if this is the case (which it isn't; no evidence in the show has presented itself to establish that this is the case, and you have not presented any evidence to establish this to be the case either), why hasn't the mane six gone after this supposed entity or being?  If this being is powerful enough to take over one of the most powerful ponies in the land, it would present a major fundamental threat to Equestria and the entire world.  And Celestia would have sent them on a quest to stop it.  Yet nothing has been done about it and it's been ignored in the show to the point where it isn't even mentioned.  Why?

 

The only logical answer is because no such being exists in the cartoon.  It is exclusive to the comics, and the comics alone.

 

Again, since there have been so many things in the show that have contradicted the comics and vice versa, claims that the two are somehow still canon with one another are not credible.  It's like trying to say the Pokemon anime and the Pokemon games are canon with one another (look up the GS Ball in the anime, and you'll see why any claims to such completely fall apart).  It just doesn't work, because they aren't.

 

It almost seems like what you're trying to do is convince people that the comics are in continuity with the show to satisfy your own headcanon.  You're acting like the things in the comics have actually happened in the show.

 

The problem with this is you haven't provided any real evidence to show they are, but merely hearsay from a few people that have been contradicted on other issues numerous times (issues as basic as when Season 6 will premiere), and one or two minor coincidences that don't even amount to anything substantial, beyond a single shot or a moment of about two seconds in the episode.  This is not evidence that any of this has happened in the show.

 

Ask the comic book writer as it is a major flaw within the story for how none of them went after Nightmare Moon despite taking the perfect opportunity to try to stop her before hand.

 

Also here's one other problem with your assertion, you think I actually like the comics? Heck no if it were up to me I'd remove it from canon too as I feel it is too much crap that muddles with FIM's lore and characters, but that quote of Hasbro considering the comics canon by a major comic book artist and how Amy went out of her way to write a story that characterizes as Celestia being stronger than her sister only leaves evidence to suggest that there has to be a separate entity that powered her up as there is no way Luna can be stronger than her sister on her own according to Amy Keating Rogers, a major show writer. As I had mentioned before, Hasbro's word over anything what we fans want and if a major comic book writer has the backing of them and there is nothing from the show or staff that directly contradicts this, than I'm sorry but that Nightmare Rarity arc is canon no matter how much we detest it.

 

Coincidences that directly contradict your assertion that the comics and EQG not being canon despite having several characters that first appeared in their own media being referenced in the show? Tell me why did they referenced them than or even bothered doing it?

Edited March 21, 2016 by Nuke87654

[Ziggy + Angel + Rain 11,298]

Princess Flurry Heart, so far as I surmise.  (I don't care if that wasn't an option.)

[cmarston1 5,952]

Princess Flurry Heart, so far as I surmise.  (I don't care if that wasn't an option.)

She is at least stronger than Celestia's whose biggest role in season 5 amounted to this:

Edited March 21, 2016 by cmarston1