So, I finally tried to draw an OC I had an idea of.

[Zhortac 1,473]

I kinda like how it went, but I still might change some things. Not quite a final in her design, and not sure on colors yet. Trying to think of what would work for a jewelry maker.

 

So, what's everyone think?

[Your Nightly Spectre 1,061]

I think you got the proportions about right and you did give it some sort of feeling of depth. But the actual face and mane and tail sort of ruin it. I don't really get what is happening on her head, are those horns? Is she wearing a wedding gown mosquitera head thing? I honestly can't tell what is going on. 

Edited April 21, 2014 by Lowca21

[Zhortac 1,473]

I think you got the proportions about right and you did give it some sort of feeling of depth. But the actual face and mane and tail sort of ruin it. I don't really get what is happening on her head, are those horns? Is she wearing a wedding gown mosquitera head thing? I honestly can't tell what is going on. 

 

The only thing I got out of that, was "how dare I not copy the exact design from the show, and use the same mane styles as the show." So what, originality is bad? Is this why shitty ass recolored characters get more attention?

[M'aiq the Liar 5,804]

I feel like the tail is kinda off, as it is moving towards the right, but her mane is not, and the apex of the tail almost looks like her tail is attached at an angle, rather than straight on.

Other than that I think it looks awsome.

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

 

 

I think you got the proportions about right and you did give it some sort of feeling of depth. But the actual face and mane and tail sort of ruin it. I don't really get what is happening on her head, are those horns? Is she wearing a wedding gown mosquitera head thing? I honestly can't tell what is going on. 

 

The only thing I got out of that, was "how dare I not copy the exact design from the show, and use the same mane styles as the show." So what, originality is bad? Is this why shitty ass recolored characters get more attention?

 

If you offer your art up and ask people to tell you what they think, then you need to be prepared to handle criticism.

 

This person even complimented you at the beginning of their post, before moving on to the critiques and issue they had. Lowca21 listed the things that they thought worked and the things that they thought could do for improvement and what confused them. Never in Lowca21's post did they say anything rude or step out of bounds of offering their basic opinion in a constructive and respectful manner. 

 

Yet you attack Lowca21 with wild conjecture and completely disproportionate hostility. You completely misrepresented what they said, put words and their mouth and shoved in wild conjecture. Nowhere in Lowca21's post did he say anything remotely close to that, they simply said they thought the overall piece was ruined because they found parts of confusing and hard to make out.

 

You responded with a completely volatile and dismissive response, refusing to even consider anything they said. It's not just foolish in my opinion, it was also incredibly rude and taints the friendly environment of this forum. Your defensive lashing out at someone who's opinion wasn't even negative does no service to you improving as a person or an artist. 

 

It seems that just because someone found faults in your work you slander and attack them, jumping to wild conclusions. I have to ask why you assumed that anyone criticizing your work must have some kind of agenda that makes them biased against your work, rather than considering they might have simply not thought it was particularly good.

 

I'm writing this for two reasons. One is that I don't appreciate someone responding with such outright volatility while avoiding any semblance of rational discussion or basic courtesy. The second is that if you can't handle someone even mentioning the negative traits of what you've done you'll struggle to get better.

 

It's extremely unhealthy to assume anyone who disagrees with you is out to get you in some way. It's plainly obvious that Lowca21 didn't dislike your work because it differed from MLP design norms, they didn't even give any indication that was a possibility. Even if they did say exactly that, your response was completely inappropriate and unnecessarily vicious.

 

Speaking for my own work, if my teachers and peers never pointed out the way's I've screwed up and my mistakes then I wouldn't be half the artist I am today. I hope you can gain a bit of perspective and learn that assaulting people for no reason doesn't help anyone.

Edited April 21, 2014 by EquineWhoDoesStuff

[Zhortac 1,473]

If you offer your art up and ask people to tell you what they think, then you need to be prepared to handle criticism.

 

This person even complimented you at the beginning of their post, before moving on to the critiques and issue they had. Lowca21 listed the things that they thought worked and the things that they thought could do for improvement and what confused them. Never in Lowca21's post did they say anything rude or step out of bounds of offering their basic opinion in a constructive and respectful manner. 

 

Yet you attack Lowca21 with wild conjecture and completely disproportionate hostility. You completely misrepresented what they said, put words and their mouth and shoved in wild conjecture. Nowhere in Lowca21's post did he say anything remotely close to that, they simply said they thought the overall piece was ruined because they found parts of confusing and hard to make out.

 

You responded with a completely volatile and dismissive response, refusing to even consider anything they said. It's not just foolish in my opinion, it was also incredibly rude and taints the friendly environment of this forum. Your defensive lashing out at someone who's opinion wasn't even negative does no service to you improving as a person or an artist. 

 

It seems that just because someone found faults in your work you slander and attack them, jumping to wild conclusions. I have to ask why you assumed that anyone criticizing your work must have some kind of agenda that makes them biased against your work, rather than considering they might have simply not thought it was particularly good.

 

I'm writing this for two reasons. One is that I don't appreciate someone responding with such outright volatility while avoiding any semblance of rational discussion or basic courtesy. The second is that if you can't handle someone even mentioning the negative traits of what you've done you'll struggle to get better.

 

It's extremely unhealthy to assume anyone who disagrees with you is out to get you in some way. It's plainly obvious that Lowca21 didn't dislike your work because it differed from MLP design norms, they didn't even give any indication that was a possibility. Even if they did say exactly that, your response was completely inappropriate and unnecessarily vicious.

 

Speaking for my own work, if my teachers and peers never pointed out the way's I've screwed up and my mistakes then I wouldn't be half the artist I am today. I hope you can gain a bit of perspective and learn that assaulting people for no reason doesn't help anyone.

 

No, that's not critique, the second reply was critique. No where, in the first reply was there any sense of critique or criticism. Again, I make reference to the second reply, as that fits what critique and criticism are. The first was more of a rambled attempt to nitpick.

 

And what you typed, is by far, the most pointless thing ever. You literally could've said your point in one paragraph, there was no reason to do four, just to repeat yourself again and again.

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

No, that's not critique, the second reply was critique. No where, in the first reply was there any sense of critique or criticism. Again, I make reference to the second reply, as that fits what critique and criticism are. The first was more of a rambled attempt to nitpick.

 

And what you typed, is by far, the most pointless thing ever. You literally could've said your point in one paragraph, there was no reason to do four, just to repeat yourself again and again.

 

Again you start with the needless hostility, insulting my post by calling it "the most pointless thing ever" is neither polite nor relevant. Even if the first posters post had been a rambling nitpick it still doesn't justify your baseless accusations against them. Nothing you've said here has tried justify the hostile rejection of Lowca21's entire post.

 

Even an extremely negative critique would still be a critique. Lowca21's post wasn't even very negative, and was fairly concise even if it wasn't particularly insightful. 

 

I felt the need to state my opinion in as many ways as possible in the hopes you might actually consider some of it. Call my post repetitive doesn't add anything to your argument against it or make it any less valid. 

 

You didn't even ask for in depth or formal critiques of your art, you just asked for people's thoughts about it. That is exactly what Lowca21 gave you, and they even presented it in a fairly constructive manner. You accused Lowca21 with some completely unfounded reason as to why you disregarded them in such a mocking way. Nothing about their post was constructed or the way they presented it gave any hints as to any ulterior motive, and yet you still fabricated something completely out of left field.

 

If you can provide an coherent reason as to why you felt it was necessary to jump on Lowca21 in such a way then that might be a convincing reason to dismiss his post.

Edited April 21, 2014 by EquineWhoDoesStuff

[Zhortac 1,473]

Again you start with the needless hostility, insulting my post by calling it "the most pointless thing ever" is neither polite nor relevant. Even if the first posters post had been a rambling nitpick it still doesn't justify your baseless accusations against them. Nothing you've said here has tried justify the hostile rejection of Jowca21's entire post.

 

Even an extremely negative critique would still be a critique. Jowca21's post wasn't even very negative, and was fairly concise even if it wasn't particularly insightful. 

 

I felt the need to state my opinion in as many ways as possible in the hopes you might actually consider some of it. Call my post repetitive doesn't add anything to your argument against it or make it any less valid. 

 

You didn't even ask for in depth or formal critiques of your art, you just asked for people's thoughts about it. That is exactly what Jowca21 gave you, and they even presented it in a fairly constructive manner. You accused Jowca21 with some completely unfounded reason as to why you disregarded them in such a mocking way. Nothing about their post was constructed or the way they presented it gave any hints as to any ulterior motive, and yet you still fabricated something completely out of left field.

 

If you can provide an coherent reason as to why you felt it was necessary to jump on Jowca21 in such a way then that might be a convincing reason to dismiss his post.

 

Now you're just rambling, as you just said the same thing as your first post. Not to mention you ignored my point about Miaq's post, and ignored the idea of what critique and criticism are. All Jowca basically said was, "I don't get it" for the head features, nothing else. That's not critique, nor criticism. He didn't give any thoughts on why, or how to improve, just "I don't get it".

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

Now you're just rambling, as you just said the same thing as your first post. Not to mention you ignored my point about Miaq's post, and ignored the idea of what critique and criticism are. All Jowca basically said was, "I don't get it" for the head features, nothing else. That's not critique, nor criticism. He didn't give any thoughts on why, or how to improve, just "I don't get it".

Before I start reply to the rest of your post I'd appreciate if you didn't dismiss everything I write as rambling or pointless. Your free to do so as far as I'm aware, but it would be nice if you refrained from it in the interest of a more civil discussion.

 

Alright then, this is something I can work with! I'm happy to address all these points. But I'd also like if you in return responded to my points about your unfounded accusations in your reply to this.

 

1, Miaq's post. Miaq's post more specifically addressed how you drew the mane and tail, offering advice as to how you might make it look more natural. That post is certainly a fine little critique, no disagreement there.

 

2, the idea of what critique and criticism are. First off, you never asked for critique in your original post. You simply asked for people's opinions. Nowhere in there did you say the response opinions needed to be specific or in depth at all. I described Jowca21's post in terms of critique and criticism because that's the context I thought was the most useful. 

 

Lowca21 didn't present a hugely specific or in depth critique, but it did bring up legitimate points. In pencil or black and white artwork especially it can be difficult to make objects easy to distinguish from the rest. Jowca21 merely pointed out that because of the way you drew the head portion he couldn't discern what was what. Not being able to tell what certain portions of the drawing are is a very common and applicable criticism. Lowca21 didn't say they just didn't get it, they said they had trouble seeing what was going on in the drawing.

Edited April 21, 2014 by EquineWhoDoesStuff

[Zhortac 1,473]

Before I start reply to the rest of your post I'd appreciate if you didn't dismiss everything I write as rambling or pointless. Your free to do so as far as I'm aware, but it would be nice if you refrained from it in the interest of a more civil discussion.

 

Alright then, this is something I can work with! I'm happy to address all these points. But I'd also like if you in return responded to my points about your unfounded accusations in your reply to this.

 

1, Miaq's post. Miaq's post more specifically addressed how you drew the mane and tail, offering advice as to how you might make it look more natural. That post is certainly a fine little critique, no disagreement there.

 

2, the idea of what critique and criticism are. First off, you never asked for critique in your original post. You simply asked for people's opinions. Nowhere in there did you say the response opinions needed to be specific or in depth at all. I described Jowca21's post in terms of critique and criticism because that's the context I thought was the most useful. 

 

Jowca21 didn't present a hugely specific or in depth critique, but it did bring up legitimate points. In pencil or black and white artwork especially it can be difficult to make objects easy to distinguish from the rest. Jowca21 merely pointed out that because of the way you drew the head portion he couldn't discern what was what. Not being able to tell what certain portions of the drawing are is a very common and applicable criticism. Jowca21 didn't say they just didn't get it, they said they had trouble seeing what was going on in the drawing.

 

Um, no. Jowca didn't make any points as you're claiming, you did. It also could've been worded alot differently, so point out that it's difficult to see as a pencil drawing, but he didn't. And I know I asked for thoughts, doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and be ok if someone came in here and went, "this sucks!". Besides, asking for "thoughts" means using your brain, not just prattling crap. It's about as assneign as the doofus who had his "opinion" on one of my short stories, saying it was bad because "it had weird names tossed around in it", the the guy clearly had no clue as to the setting of the story was.

[Dattebayo 2,850]

The only thing I got out of that, was "how dare I not copy the exact design from the show, and use the same mane styles as the show." So what, originality is bad? Is this why shitty ass recolored characters get more attention?

I took it more as "I don't get what the hell is happening on her head".

To be frank, me neither. Are those horns? Is her hair in some sort of knot? A hat, maybe?

 

Maybe a clearer picture from the sideis needed.

[Zhortac 1,473]

I took it more as "I don't get what the hell is happening on her head".

To be frank, me neither. Are those horns? Is her hair in some sort of knot? A hat, maybe?

 

Maybe a clearer picture from the sideis needed.

 

See, that made alot more sense.

 

And I blame Photoshop.

[Star-Gazer 202]

As it's been said before, I have no idea what you were trying to do with that mane. Perhaps it'd help if you drew it in a different perspective. Other than that, it's a good drawing. 

[Your Nightly Spectre 1,061]

To:

 

Really thank you for defending me here, it is really heart warming to see that some people still happen to care about things like this. 

I would totally help you with this argument but I find it pointless and I think you should leave it alone too. 

 

PS. It is Lowca21 not Jowca21 

 

To:

 

You asked for opinions, that is exactly what I gave you.

Also a critique pretty much points out what is good and what is bad in something, he/she does not tell you how to make things better. 

So that is also pretty much what I did. 

I told you what I thought you did wrong and what I didn't fully understand and that means those should be the things you should look at and try fixing it to make it look better. 

 

 

Do excuse me if these have some hard to understand form because I am writing these at a very late hour and I am very tired. I am getting the feeling that I am getting all the sentences wrong. 

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

To:

Really thank you for defending me here, it is really heart warming to see that some people still happen to care about things like this. 

I would totally help you with this argument but I find it pointless and I think you should leave it alone too. 

 

PS. It is Lowca21 not Jowca21 

 

 

Your very welcome, if engaging in a fruitless internet argument is worthy of praise then I'll gladly take it. As an aspiring artist that kind of response to pretty basic criticism really struck me the wrong way.

 

Even if I wanted to keep arguing there isn't much left that can be said without even more repetition. I have a fairly low tolerance for any kind of heated debate anyway, so at I certain point I'd just have to quit because it makes me more upset than it's worth.

 

So sorry about your name! I got it right in the first post and then the L somehow transmuted into a J during the second and third, I blame M.A. Larson.

Um, no. Jowca didn't make any points as you're claiming, you did. It also could've been worded alot differently, so point out that it's difficult to see as a pencil drawing, but he didn't. And I know I asked for thoughts, doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and be ok if someone came in here and went, "this sucks!". Besides, asking for "thoughts" means using your brain, not just prattling crap. It's about as assneign as the doofus who had his "opinion" on one of my short stories, saying it was bad because "it had weird names tossed around in it", the the guy clearly had no clue as to the setting of the story was.

 

Now this is what I'm talking about! I want to non-sarcasticly genuinely thank you for this post, because now I think I understand where your coming from better. It was also refreshingly free of the sort of antagonism I originally took issue with, because honestly, even if I'm right and you were rude to someone on the internet it's not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.

 

Alright, on to my attempt to communicate what I'm talking about.

 

Lowca21 didn't just say that it sucked, or say any no-thought-involved typical troll bashing. Making Lowca21's post a bit more understandable without changing any of the meaning, it said "I think the proportions are about right and I like how you made it look like it has depth. But the actual face and mane and tail ruin it sort of ruin it for me. I don't understand what's happening on her head, are those horns there? Are those shapes one of those wedding gown head things? I honestly can't tell what's happening here."

 

Lowca21's original post wasn't worded in a particularly graceful or really understandable way. I don't find it hard to believe that you might have misconstrued or not understand what his points were, that kind of misunderstand happens all the time, especially online.

 

My point is not that Lowca21's post was sensible, well written or even correct. But it was a fairly straight forward and no nonsense list of just a few good and bad points of your art.  I'm not sure how saying they couldn't tell what's going on in it could be mistaken for blind hating.  

 

My point is that nothing in that post had enough bile or negativity to justify such an extreme reply. If you were really that bamboozled as to what his criticism was then the proper course of action is to ask.

 

The only thing I really want to understand coming out of this is what prompted your response. Even if their post had been pure blind hatred there was no reason for you to jump to the conclusion that hated it because it wasn't a cookie cutter OC. They could've hated it because they can't understand pencil sketches well, or any other legitimate or arbitrary reason you could name. Heck, they could've just disliked it because your username starts with z for all you know!

 

It's not reasonable to stick all this motives and opinions to a person who never said them and it's not a proportionate or useful response.

[SCS 7,444]

This topic is becoming unnecessarily heated and is heading in a tangential direction. Please keep replies focused on commenting on the Zhortac's artwork, as that is the purpose of this topic. Additionally, Zhortac, it is important to keep in mind that you may not like what everyone has to say about your artwork, but as long as they are not being abusive there is no real cause to take offense.

 

If you wish to continue to discuss your thoughts regarding whether or not a post was helpful or constructive, please do so in private messages. This topic may have to be locked if it continues to go down a tangential path of unnecessary argumentation.

[EquineWhoDoesStuff 49]

This topic is becoming unnecessarily heated and is heading in a tangential direction. Please keep replies focused on commenting on the Zhortac's artwork, as that is the purpose of this topic. Additionally, Zhortac, it is important to keep in mind that you may not like what everyone has to say about your artwork, but as long as they are not being abusive there is no real cause to take offense.

 

If you wish to continue to discuss your thoughts regarding whether or not a post was helpful or constructive, please do so in private messages. This topic may have to be locked if it continues to go down a tangential path of unnecessary argumentation.

 

Question about forum etiquette incase the mod reads this. Is it considered bad form to reply to moderation posts like this? If it's not do mods usually reply in the threads, or is it considered an annoyance?

 

Aaaannnndddddd here comes the mod, I'm not particularly surprised considering how this thread is turning out. Unless Zhortac has any closing statements then that debate in this thread is officially kiboshed. That's probably for the best. I highly doubt Zhortac is invested enough in the argument to continue it in private. 

 

If for some reason someone else wants to jump in on the argument, then heed the mod's advice and don't. At least, not in this thread anymore.