Reading Heart

Ah...I really hoped that we wouldn't end up here. So, what is the essence of faith with regards to those of us who are called 'Christian'? It is the covenant of blood regarding Jesus death on the cross. I'll quote, from the amplified version, so we'll cover the depth of the language better, but if you like you can look at several other verses in other versions if you prefer. Romans 10:9-10 9 because if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation. And Matthew 10: 32 32 “Therefore, the one who [a]confesses and acknowledges Me before men [as Lord and Savior, affirming a state of oneness with Me], that one I will also confess and acknowledge before My Father who is in heaven. ------------------------ "Believe and confess" Nothing more, nothing less.. not by works lest any man should boast. If they are teaching a different Jesus except for Christ and him crucified, then I've have a problem with their stance, the islamic faith for example, doesn't believe that Jesus actually died or was crucified, so they are clearly not of the faith. But the Roman Catholic church, still teaches Jesus, proclaiming his death on the cross, so on that, I have no issues with them... ---------------------------------------- Now to the matter of lust, which I view as far less important, but is still an important one. Giving into lust in any way strengthens it and empowers it, as a man thinks his heart follows after.. pornography has our culture in it's grip, it's no surprise to me that the issue of masturbation and such comes up. Let's go with my own experiences... I've had trouble with this matter, I struggled with it for a long time, until I came to God and asked for his Heart on it... not simply to believe what He did about it, to feel as He did about it.. and in a single instant.. my attitude on it changed.. today I view all forms of giving into lust though the following lens.. It dishonors and exploits my sisters, in particular, those who in believers in Christ, but also if I view it from Adam and I do, every human female. It dishonors the temple of the Holy Spirit (my own body) and therefor dishonors God. I will give no place to it in my life, not in my thoughts, not in my heart, not in my actions. The only holy place to follow sexual desire is between husband and wife, according to God, and I want His Heart in this, so until or unless the day comes that I marry, I will follow his will on this.

Ah, while I have a number of problems with the catholic church, I believe they give too much place to men and not enough to Christ, and that they have placed tradition too highly, and elevated their priests too highly, even more so when one gets to the pope and bishops. I'm not really eager to go into it, because to be fair, I have issues with just about all of the various christian sects these days, and like Sunwalker I want to avoid divisive issues, we are meant to be one in spirit and unity, not divided as we are today. But, while some doctrine is questionable, I don't have any issues with their faith in and love for Jesus, or desire to serve God, nor their core doctrine, which at the depth of it, is found in the Apostle's Creed. We are human beings, only God is perfect, and only the Spirit can truly guide us into understanding of God's heart and thoughts with regards to scripture. As in what he meant by it, the Spirit is the oil of the Lamp, without the oil, there is no light, and you will have no idea of what God means. But without the Lamp, the word of God, you can and will end up forming ideas from your own spirit, that may sound good to you, but is not of the heart and mind of God. Or the enemy will slip in ideas that contradict, either directly or subtly, the word, because not being in the word will leave you stumbling in the dark. You have no idea how many times incorrect doctrine has entered the church (and I'm talking the church in general, not the catholic church in particular), either because of people applying their own spirit, their own thoughts and ideas, rather then seeking, in prayer, the leading of the Holy Spirit.. or the enemy sneaking in to add his own lies, all of which amount to 'Oh, God didn't really mean that' or 'You don't really think God meant it that way' or 'God really meant this, not that' and how many splits between various sects that exist today because of this.

Brother, in the spirit of love, I know you didn't mean anything harmful about it, and I think Steel Accord didn't either, both of us were talking about attitude, and it's importance, wrath isn't entirely about violence, it's about attitude... Also just because something is customary, doesn't mean it's a good one, or that it honors God. I'm talking from experience here, by the way, I've learned this lesson the hard way, and I would much rather you, and anyone else learn this the easier way.. your words and thoughts come from whats in your heart, but you can redirect them, and God is always willing to give us a fresh start.. those whose lives we've hurt along the way though.. may become forever out of out reach because of our words in the past. That said.. part of the reason God has so much to say about the tongue, and about guarding our words, is that it is the most dangerous, damaging, and deadly thing in existence. Words, said intentionally or unintentionally, have done more damage over history then anything else. You can unintentionally fall into sinful behavior, that's why God calls us to renew our minds and our hearts so often. Now, it's not just your statement, it's an attitude I think both Steel and I wanted to address,(if that's not what you were speaking of Steel, I apologize, please correct me), not just to you, but to anyone rushing into make certain statements. That said, may you and anyone else reading this be blessed.

I am entirely with Steel Accord here, I don't mind that you disagree with them, and I am glad to hear that you embrace Jesus as the savior, that's no reason to be disrespectful of anyone else's viewpoint, even when you believe they are wrong. How is that loving the lost that Jesus wishes to save? Let's extend love and respect, even when we disagree with them on every point.. is love not what the Lord commanded? And are we not asked to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves? Insults are not harmless, brother. "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another" John 13:34 Beloved, Let us love one another, for love is of God and knows God, he that loves not, does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:7-8 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matthew 10:16 But let us consider words we use themselves a moment The tongue of the rightous is like choice silver, but the heart of the wicked is of little worth - Proverbs 10:20 Luke 6:45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." Choice silver means good words are scarce, precious and valuable, but silver and gold are also spoken of in the scripture as refining, as in purifying and if anything needs it, it's our words and our heart. Also we are called to guard our tongue.. and as Jesus teaches there in Luke, what comes out of our lips is indicative of our hearts.

Generally, if your interested in that sort of questions, I suggest looking up the field of christian apologetics.. in fact, here's one on the internet you might find interesting to read: http://christianthinktank.com/

Like Steel Accord says, context is everything here, so let's look at the surrounding verses.. if you look at Matthew, the disciples are asking Jesus, who is greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.. Jesus responds by turning the question on it's head, and making it a matter of humility. Corinthians chapter 13, has Paul talking about love, what love is, and why it matters more then any spiritual gifts and then moves into talking about what is happening in the spiritual realm when we pass though death into heaven before God. Corinthians chapter 11, Paul is taking about setting an example for others, and if you look a little further back, two verses doing everything to the glory of God. So what is really the point being made here? Humility, Love, Obedience,

Is this what your looking for, color wise at least? No cutie mark at this point, but I figured I could give it a try with this. http://www.dolldivine.com/mlp-fim-pony-creator.php

I apologize, I didn't intend to get the discussion so far into left field, or to derail the thread, if you want to continue this one, alpine, send me a pm, otherwise, I'm just to going to let it go.

Alright, let's address your first statement, that atheism is not a belief system.. I guess we're going to have to better define belief system for you, in this case, so, let's grab a few thoughts from some folks who have studied the matter, some folks with actual degrees in the matter. http://www.vub.ac.be/CLEA/FOS/cfp/what-are-belief-systems.pdf http://study.com/academy/lesson/belief-systems-definition-types-quiz.html I'm going to quote the second here... Definition Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God? When you vote, do you register as a Democrat or a Republican? When it comes to human nature, do you believe that we are inherently selfish or selfless? These are all great examples of different types of belief systems. A belief system is an ideology or set of principles that helps us to interpret our everyday reality. This could be in the form of religion, political affiliation, philosophy, or spirituality, among many other things. These beliefs are shaped and influenced by a number of different factors. Our knowledge on a certain topic, the way we were raised, and even peer pressure from others can help to create and even change our belief systems. The convictions that come from these systems are a way for us to make sense of the world around us and to define our role within it. By this definition, Atheism is a belief system, it's more of a philosophical one then a spiritual one, since it rejects the concept of a divinity, but rejecting the existence of divinity is not the same as refusing to collect stamps.. it is more of the level of refusing to involve oneself in sending or receiving mail.. but it remains a philosophical belief system, by the above definition. ------------------------------------ Claim number 2... that intelligent design has been proven ridiculous on multiple levels.. http://www.discovery.org/articleFiles/PDFs/100ScientistsAd.pdf http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/a-world-famous-chemist-tells-the-truth-theres-no-scientist-alive-today-who-understands-macroevolution/ Proven is too strong a word.... you can say that Darwinian Evolution has answers for the issues of Intelligent design and counterarguments to it's arguments, but you can't say proven without being intellectually dishonest... to yourself if no one else. Your counterarguments.. and the one's for intelligent design for that matter, remain theoretical, and, without a time machine to actually look into the matter, remain theory. So you can say there are theoretical responses to the arguments of intelligent design, but if you claim it to be proven, your lying to yourself and others.. And to delve further into the matter, I don't have any issues with the concept of evolution with regards to a tiger and cat being related, shoot, with regards to the dog, we have dogs the size of teacups and as large as a mastif.. but they remain genetically canines. So I can believe a lynx, a house cat, a tiger, a lion and a leopard are all related.. I can also believe a fox, a wolf, a dog and a coyote are related. I can believe a butterfly will naturally select for red wings over blue in the right circumstances. But when you start to tell me that the tiger and the cat both came from a fish long ago, which is what I regard as the actual Darwinian Theory, I simply can't get behind it. First, your evolutionary process then has to select for a positive mutation, not just in a single individual, but in a large enough species selection to produce genetic diversity, because we have proof today, that without that genetic diversity, a species will not survive.. I've heard the introduction of energy theory, the non-closed system, and others, they remain just ideas of maybe how this can work.. but they arn't one's that anyone can prove. Here's what I need to believe in Macro-evolution.. take a fish, any fish.. and using genetic engineering, produce a cat from it.. if the Macro-evolution theory is correct, it should be doable.. but no biologist has done this. Now, I don't even have a problem with the idea that the earth may be billions of years old, my clear bias, which I admit too, comes to Genesis 1:1 'In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth' Regardless of if I embrace old earth creationism, young earth creationism, or the the process used was evolutionary, or the claim that Genesis 1 is symbolic, poetic or literal, and I've considered all of these positions (and presently don't care, what matters is that God did it, I've other concerns to focus my time on)... there is nothing that will convince me to step off the position of 'The Divine existed before time and space, and is subject to neither.. and everything that is is because of Divine action'. -------------------------- Third.. you took this to mean more then I suggested: Not what I said at all, you took it to mean that the I was saying a materialistic agenda was being pushed, I'm not arguing that, I'm arguing that their biased to look at it this way. Now, that said, I do think there were a few holes in the above video, and area's that it covers inadequately.. or fails to properly cover. As to ID not being a scientific theory: http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1548 --------------------------- Actually, I have questions for you, that if your completely honest, can not be answered at all today.. you can argue that someday they will be, but at the present, we don't even have a way to measure some of it, because we can't pin it down... and I can argue that they can't be at all... and it's a coin flip as to who is right. What is gravity? Not what is it's effects, or how it works.. what is it? This problem is why Quantum Physics and General Relativity have yet to meet, though it's been suggested that the answer comes in my next question.What are Dark Matter and Dark Energy? http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/dark_energy/de-what_is_dark_energy.php http://science.nationalgeographic.com/science/space/dark-matter/ A Grand total of what we can see and study of the universe, is about 4% to 5%. Supposedly it's everywhere, and necessary for the universe to exist, it holds everything together based on what science presently tells us.. but we can't actually pin it down? Hmm, sounds strangely like the idea of 'For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things' Can you prove to me that Dark Matter and Dark Energy aren't some indication of the existence of the will of the Divine? I'm not say it is, one way or another, I'm saying, can you prove it isn't? Since we can't even pin it down, you can't say one way or the other.. it could be, or it couldn't be, we come to the coin flip -------------------------- Now.. to the other matter, discussed by Jonny in the previous post. As to the idea of the end of times being upon us.. I can believe we stand in the season, but the day and the hour is unknown. If it is, then there are more things to come, that will take years, and it will become clear to us in due time.

Ah, this argument, it's a long one, and it goes on and on.. but let me cut it down a bit. Creationism and Atheism are belief systems, aka faith's.. Intelligence Design and Darwinian Evolution are theories, use to support the various arguments on one side or other, but both are simply theories. And part of why they are still theories, is that they are unproven, but the reason they continue to be followed by scientists is that they can find evidence for them... Of course, the matter becomes even more complicated because a lot of scientists are materialists (reject any level of spiritual reality in favor of a entirely material/sensory based reality), and secular humanists (reject the potential presence of God in existence). This means they have a vested interest in pushing a non-theistic worldview, but then they claim to be unbiased, which is an outright lie. Of course, the other side generally doesn't even claim to be unbiased, which brings them under attack from intellectuals, but, I find to be more honest.. since anyone who claims to be unbiased is lying to you, myself included, human beings are by nature biased, some of us are better at admitting it... others don't want to.

The real question about young earth creationism vs. old earth creationism vs. the ancient earth evolutionary argument, is what is truth? Who is telling the lies and who is speaking truthfully, and how does one tell? I'm afraid I'm going to have to go 'Let God be true' though every man is a liar. Don't trust what others tell you.. seek the Truth. What aligns with the nature and character of God, what can be trusted and what does not.. can not be. Zane, thank you, first wisdom comes from above, and secondly, I have to disagree, at least slightly.. you can still go wrong, if you don't remain humble and teachable.. it is perilous to assume you can't go wrong, or that you have all of the answers, that is the path to pride and delusion.. you must keep your eyes on Him, and seek to get as close to Him as possible, and to be prepared and willing to allow him to correct you. That said, I'm going to assume that's what you really meant.

Ah.. Jonny Music, 90% of what we are told in life is lies, I'm not sure I'd count even this as the biggest one.. It's pretty up there, but I can think of one or two other lies that are just as bad.... The problem is that no one in this area is willing to let it be tested, they fight it every step of the way.. so strongly in fact, that it reminds me of the very folks they claim are fanatically against them because of their 'faith'. Meanwhile, I believe that faith and reason can go hand in hand, that science and religion don't have to be antagonists.. though I've had folks attack me for this stance. You are correct, and in essence, one doesn't need to go to church in order to believe and follow the teachings of Jesus, and yet we are instructed not to forsake the fellowship either, and that 'as iron sharpens iron, so a friend sharpens a friend.' Now, I hold that a broader meaning then it's generally seen as, since most folks see this as an instruction to go to church, but taken literally, it's an instruction to fellowship with other believers.. which what we are doing right now, in this thread can be seen as. That said, I continue to try and find a church that truly follows what is taught.. *Sigh* and find most of them following a specific leader, forgetting that Jesus is supposed to be the head of the church.. or following false teachings, forgetting that the Spirit is supposed to be our teacher... or clinging to some pet teaching of man.. rather then seeking the Spirit's guidance...putting together their own view of God from their understanding, not realizing that doing this is creating an idol in your own mind, which is against the second commandment.. and that's only the surface problems. The further problem, from what I have learned from the word, is that we are supposed to be a community of believers, and is what God wants of us.. but the assembly of believers doesn't have to be a certain time or hour, and it doesn't have to follow a certain ritual.. aka what most churches do 'Worship' 'Tithe' 'Preacher Speaks' 'Altar call' - Not to say that a formula can't be followed, and there isn't a certain order that God desires from his people, but this doesn't have to be it. Simply gathering together as a group and praying together, or just getting together to talk and spend some time together, or to study the bible, though again, I've come to understand that often folks get together to talk about their ideas, rather then to seek what the Spirit of God means in a particular section of scripture, I've done this in the past myself.. There was a time when I was more willing to go with the general flow of various services, and trying to find a way to serve within what I found to be a problem, to find the group who as the least out of the Divine will, but these days continue, I'm increasingly unsatisfied with anything but what God is saying and doing...

Hmm, sounds like it could be an actual physical problem, there are certain sensitivities that can produce that sort of result. Have you considered perhaps reading or studying or watching various teachings of the faith, if it's the noise that is the problem? The razzle and dazzle of some of the more modern churches is something I admit to finding disturbing, like some folks seem to think they need to somehow highlight the faith in ways that aren't necessary. Overcoming selfish inner thoughts involves bringing them 'into submission to Christ' which is both much simpler and much harder then it sounds. The most dangerous of 'sins' is pride, because it's the one that is least likely to see that your at fault, wisdom and humility walk hand in hand, if pride has you then delusion and arrogance will also get you in it's grip and your going to have to encounter a very hard fall to realize your problem. If you want to truly deal with the problem, however, your going to not simply need to pray about it, regret it and pray for forgiveness.. this is a good thing and thankfully God meets us where we are, and does forgive, and encourages us to keep going.. He will continue to encourage us and help us, and meet us where we are. Repenting however, involves a 180 turn.. it involves coming to God and saying 'I don't want my way in this, I want yours, not in thought, not in will, not in heart, not in deed, I don't want my will in this in any way, but yours." And meaning it from the heart of your being. Why do I say this?.. because every time in my own life where I've gone to the Divine just seeking forgiveness, the problem isn't fully dealt with and I kept having to encounter it again.. but those moments I've come to God in desperation, usually a tired desperation as I, I don't know how deal with this anymore, and said simply meaning it entirely 'Not my will, but yours, I reject everything to do with this but what You want of me in it.." I have walked away from that particular sin and as I remained focused on the Divine, never wanted anything to do with it again. This is a lot harder however, then it sounds, which is why it's a good thing God meets us where we are.. seeing where we can be.. and encouraging us every step of the way on the journey of life. Also, the problem with the word sin is it's come mean 'bad' culturally, and no one sees themselves as bad, I generally go with the term 'selfish' because all of us are selfish at times and it makes it much clearer as to what God means by sin. Though there is more too it then that, if you really want to discuss it, I'd rather discuss that personally in a PM. Welcome, both to the website and to those of us who are believers within the community, may you be blessed in life. Actually, let me end my words here with a general desire for blessing in the lives of everyone who reads this, and the statement, feel free to send me a private message if you want to discuss anything I've written, here or elsewhere.

I've been to a number of different churches, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Pentecostal, Assembly's of God, Greek Orthodox and others.. two things I note of them: They all exalt Jesus, and they all make ritual more important then it should be, some more so then others.. you can find the Beloved in them all, but you can also get caught in the trap of religion and ritual if you don't pay attention. This can happen even in churches that don't claim a denomination, if one lets it. The key is seeking the Divine guidance of the Spirit and rooting yourself in his Word and being willing to discard the concepts and ideas of men regarding His word when it doesn't line up with His truth.. the Spirit is the oil, the Word is the lamp to light your path.. you need both or your going to stumble...fortunately, God is more then willing to pick us up when we mess up, and he knows we will stumble, that's part of what the Cross was all about... He just wants us to keep going and not to give up, even when we stumble and fall.

Some food for thought I've heard a lot of folks draw parallels between certain aspects of the show and christian faith.. I'd like to draw another one.. at least in some regards, in the way the tree of harmony seems to work (so far) and the way the Holy Spirit works in our lives. The connections to fruit of the spirit, and the elements of harmony is the easy one, shoot, kindness is outright a biblical fruit of the spirit. On a deeper level however.. the Spirit invites our participation, but doesn't push His way into our lives, but only as much as we accept His invitation does he move in and guide our lives. If you see the elements, the map, the rainbow power and the castle all as still different parts of the tree, and it's response to twilight and her friends aligning themselves to the elements of harmony, the parallel's grow even stronger.. Of course, there are problems with any parallel, since it's not perfect, but it's the closest I've see in modern media to any sort of portrayal of the way the Beloved Spirit seems to work. Still this sort of thing is nice to think about, but unless it affects you, it has no real meaning.. so what can you take from it? I see it as a call to ask myself.. how much do I align myself with the Spirit and seek His guidance, and how much to I simply do my own thing, even to the point of trying to do spiritual things this way.. and as a call to go deeper, to seek more of God, more of the Divine will in my life.