Is Celestia really the right ruler for the job?

[Dulset Tarn 441]

In any case, Twilight now makes Celestia look like a joke. I'd definitely say that she's ready to take the throne right now.  

How do you figure? Twilight has done nothing but screw up and hasn't grown as a character in the slightest.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Dulset Tarn

[spade 88]

 

But you try being over 1,000 years old, handle the amount of stress Celestia has too, and the lonelyness for a thousand years while Luna was on the moon...

"When 900 years old you reach look as good you will not."

[Roughshod 719]

 

 

She's not only a unicorn with magic as a special talent, she's a wielder of the Elements of Harmony.

 

 

A small point of fact is that Twilight became Celestia's student before she discovered the EOH. So unless you can prove that Celestia somehow knew that Twilight was going to become a wielder of one of those elements in addition to the others then it would stand to reason that her original basis for tutoring her still rests on the fact that she has exceptional magical ability. 

 

Note: The fact that her cutie mark resembles that of the element of magic both in it's crown/tiara form and symbolism on the Tree of Harmony has already been addressed as a possible reason for Celestia's motivations.

 

 

 

We've seen what happened to Sunset Shimmer when she was corrupted with one piece... imagine if a corrupted Twilight somehow found herself with the full set.

 

With all due respect, and I generally do respect your opinions, that is largely immaterial. Not just because Equestria Girls isn't really cannon to the main series(which I don't think it is) but also because that transformation or whatever you want to call it didn't even make sense. If you have the time, this will explain it better than I can.

 

 

 

 

As sad as it is to say, even the potential loss of an entire kingdom is still worth the cost if it makes sure Twilight was properly ready

 

 

Is that a serious statement? That's entirely self defeating! What is the point of having twilight ready to protect Equestria if there's nothing left of it? I agree that sometimes risks need to be taken, but it's just ludicrous to say that 'it doesn't matter what happens just as long as Twilight learns a good lesson.'

 

This is exactly the type of thinking I was talking about with regards to Celestia and her often reckless and selfish behavior.

[Fractured 2,684]

 

A small point of fact is that Twilight became Celestia's student before she discovered the EOH. 

And this would apply to any tests she got after obtaining the latter. Twilight wasn't subjected to any dangerous tests(at least by Celestia) until after she had already became an element bearer.

 

With all due respect, and I generally do respect your opinions, that is largely immaterial. Not just because Equestria Girls isn't really cannon to the main series(which I don't think it is) but also because that transformation or whatever you want to call it didn't even make sense. If you have the time, this will explain it better than I can.

Oh, Tommy Oliver. Such an amazing reviewer.

Regardless of the canonicity, though, we've seen in other places the elements can also be used singularly, both by Celestia in the show itself, and by AU Sombra in the comic arc Reflections. Even without them, the damage even a single alicorn could do could still be catatstrophic.

 

Is that a serious statement? That's entirely self defeating! What is the point of having twilight ready to protect Equestria if there's nothing left of it? I agree that sometimes risks need to be taken, but it's just ludicrous to say that 'it doesn't matter what happens just as long as Twilight learns a good lesson.'

 

This is exactly the type of thinking I was talking about with regards to Celestia and her often reckless and selfish behavior.

 

I was actually talking about the potential sacrifice of the Crystal Empire vs a rogue, unstable alicorn potentially decimating most or all of Equestria. Considering we have yet to see the magical limits of an alicorn, that might have very well been a possiblity had Twilight lost control. It was only the Elements of Harmony and Celestia's unwillingness to fight that prevented a situation that from happening in the first fight.

 

Bottom line: was it a good idea to turn Twilight in to an alicorm? Yes. Would it have been smarter for her to turn her into one earlier? Not so much. Some risks aren't worth it.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Shimmer5000

[Roughshod 719]

And this would apply to any tests she got after obtaining the latter. Twilight wasn't subjected to any dangerous tests(at least by Celestia) until after she had already became an element bearer.

Aren't you forgetting about somepony?

 

 

Keep in mind that Celestia did next to nothing in assisting with the defeat of Nightmare Moon or Luna's subsequent rehabilitation. Some have said that this was all planned by Celestia in he first place but I don't buy that. Once again it comes down to incompetence or malice. Perhaps a bit of both.

 

Oh, Tommy Oliver. Such an amazing reviewer.Regardless of the canonicity, though, we've seen in other places the elements can also be used singularly, both by Celestia in the show itself, and by AU Sombra in the comic arc Reflections. Even without them, the damage even a single alicorn could do could still be catatstrophic.

I think he's pretty decent. "Regardless of the canonicity"? For the sake of this dialogue I would prefer if we kept to the television show as much ad possible since that is generally accepted as most canonical. With Celestia and the elements she did use them singularly but she did so using all of them and that's why Sunset Shimmer being able to utilize a single one seems so strange and nonsensical to me.

 

The damage could be catastrophic? Well considering Celestia's apparent disregard and lazy approach I suppose that's possible.

 

But I find it hard to believe that a single alicorn who had just received her power would be able to overpower the other three, especially without using the EOH(unless you're also suggesting the remane 5 would support her abuse of power). Of all the alicorns we know of Twilight has the least experience with her new powers and this can be seen in the season 4 premiere.

 

 

I was actually talking about the potential sacrifice of the Crystal Empire vs a rogue, unstable alicorn potentially decimating most or all of Equestria. Considering we have yet to see the magical limits of an alicorn, that might have very well been a possiblity had Twilight lost control. It was only the Elements of Harmony and Celestia's unwillingness to fight that prevented a situation that from happening in the first fight.

You're using hyperbole and also arguing from a point of ignorance. I cannot agree that the theoretical sacrifice of an entire empire is of equivalent value to the threat posed by an inexperienced alicorn that Celestia was already well aquainted with and who's character she had already found sufficient to become her student in the first place. Hence the previous tests she had given her. This doesn't mean I excuse the mistakes and errors Celestia has made, but I don't believe she is that daft as to completely misunderstand Twilight(even given her neuroses) nor do I think she and her fellow princesses are so incompetent that they could not be able to contain the situation to some degree were something to go wrong.

 

Bottom line: was it a good idea to turn Twilight in to an alicorm? Yes. Would it have been smarter for her to turn her into one earlier? Not so much. Some risks aren't worth it.

Ultimately moot to me when you remember that the fact that she needed Twilight at all is a strike against her as being incompetent. If she hadn't ignored her sister's feelings of jealousy that lead to her corruption and ultimate banishment she wouldn't have lost her connection to the EOH in the first place and become so dependant on her student to take care of her nation's crises.

 

Some risks aren't worth it? Weren't you just agreeing that she takes risks all the time? And also implicitly justifying the possible eradication of an entire empire so as to prevent an inexperienced, but evidently still trustworthy princess?

 

Celestia is largely still irresponsible and incapable when it comes to handling problems that arise in her kingdom, unable to even confine a former tyrant that has been petrified to a secure location or withstand an attack from a plunderseed vine. It is because of this, amongst other reasons I have outlined, that I do not believe Celestia is the best suited to rule Equestria.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Roughshod

[Fractured 2,684]

Aren't you forgetting about somepony?

 

Nightmare_Moon.png

 

Keep in mind that Celestia did next to nothing in assisting with the defeat of Nightmare Moon or Luna's subsequent rehabilitation. Some have said that this was all planned by Celestia in he first place but I don't buy that. Once again it comes down to incompetence or malice. Perhaps a bit of both.

Incompetence, possibly, though that has little to do with Twilight herself. Celestia didn't put her up to that; she specifically dismissed the possibility Nightmare Moon would return.

 

The damage could be catastrophic? Well considering Celestia's apparent disregard and lazy approach I suppose that's possible.

 

But I find it hard to believe that a single alicorn who had just received her power would be able to overpower the other three, especially without using the EOH(unless you're also suggesting the remane 5 would support her abuse of power). Of all the alicorns we know of Twilight has the least experience with her new powers and this can be seen in the season 4 premiere.

 

Twilight_crashes_into_the_dirt_S4E01.png

Fair enough on this.

 

You're using hyperbole and also arguing from a point of ignorance. I cannot agree that the theoretical sacrifice of an entire empire is of equivalent value to the threat posed by an inexperienced alicorn that Celestia was already well aquainted with and who's character she had already found sufficient to become her student in the first place. Hence the previous tests she had given her. This doesn't mean I excuse the mistakes and errors Celestia has made, but I don't believe she is that daft as to completely misunderstand Twilight(even given her neuroses) nor do I think she and her fellow princesses are so incompetent that they could not be able to contain the situation to some degree were something to go wrong.

Fair enough on this as well.

 

Ultimately moot to me when you remember that the fact that she needed Twilight at all is a strike against her as being incompetent. If she hadn't ignored her sister's feelings of jealousy that lead to her corruption and ultimate banishment she wouldn't have lost her connection to the EOH in the first place and become so dependant on her student to take care of her nation's crises.

 

Some risks aren't worth it? Weren't you just agreeing that she takes risks all the time? And also implicitly justifying the possible eradication of an entire empire so as to prevent an inexperienced, but evidently still trustworthy princess?

 

Celestia is largely still irresponsible and incapable when it comes to handling problems that arise in her kingdom, unable to even confine a former tyrant that has been petrified to a secure location or withstand an attack from a plunderseed vine. It is because of this, amongst other reasons I have outlined, that I do not believe Celestia is the best suited to rule Equestria.

Yes, and it seems i'm guility of arguing for the sake of arguing. Nasty.

Moving back to my original position, yes, Celestia has a recent track record of being incompetent, to the point of outright foolish recklessness. The best that can be said is that she did not do so with malicious intent, despite what happened.

 

...though that still leaves the question of who would be better suited, although you have pointed out that's seemingly a different issue.

[KingsInEquestria 32]

I have often wondered the same, but I agree with the other ponies that said Celestia is getting old and is looking for a successor.

Cadence is in charge of The Crystal Empire so that rules her out as high ruler and Luna is unpredictable cause she, of course, turned evil once. So I believe when the time is right and Celestia is ready to hand over the throne, Twi will be the one to take over and rule all of Equestria. And as for Luna? I believe she will continue to guard the night until she finds a successor or she allows Twi to take over that job that as well. 

[StitchandMLPlover 930]

Just for clarification Sombra was turned to shadow by the royal sisters before encasing him in a icy prison. That shadowy part of him was purified once he got closer to the Crystal Heart itself.

What do you mean by Sombra being purified??? 

[Roughshod 719]

What do you mean by Sombra being purified???

 

I think what they meant was that King Sombra became solidified. Sombra regained his original form when he got nearer to the Crystal Heart, probably becoming more powerful. This is kind of ironic since it was also the Crystal Heart which destroyed him, similar to Sauron from the Lord of the Rings.

 

Moving back to my original position, yes, Celestia has a recent track record of being incompetent, to the point of outright foolish recklessness. The best that can be said is that she did not do so with malicious intent, despite what happened.

 

...though that still leaves the question of who would be better suited, although you have pointed out that's seemingly a different issue.

When it comes to situations like the ones weve been discussing it's ultimately the results that truly. It's easy enough to say 'She didn't mean it!', but even if that's true it doesn't redeem her actions for me. Besides, who's to say carelessness and neglect don't involve some malicious intent? Choosing not to do anything about a problem is still an active choice.

 

"There comes a time when silence is betrayal." - Martin Luther King Jr.

 

 

Well yes. I have made my posts with the primary purpose of fleshing out my criticisms of Celestia but not so much my opinion on who would be best suited as her replacement. I have made general complaints about the political structure of Equestria and how I don't consider it to be ideal though. I might expand on that later. I'm sure I could keep it relevant to the topic and spark some debate in the process.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Roughshod

[StitchandMLPlover 930]

I think what they meant was that King Sombra became solidified. Sombra regained his original form when he got nearer to the Crystal Heart, probably becoming more powerful. This is kind of ironic since it was also the Crystal Heart which destroyed him, similar to Sauron from the Lord of the Rings.

 

 

When it comes to situations like the ones weve been discussing it's ultimately the results that truly. It's easy enough to say 'She didn't mean it!', but even if that's true it doesn't redeem her actions for me. Besides, who's to say carelessness and neglect don't involve some malicious intent? Choosing not to do anything about a problem is still an active choice.

 

"There comes a time when silence is betrayal." - Martin Luther King Jr.

 

 

Well yes. I have made my posts with the primary purpose of fleshing out my criticisms of Celestia but not so much my opinion on who would be best suited as her replacement. I have made general complaints about the political structure of Equestria and how I don't consider it to be ideal though. I might expand on that later. I'm sure I could keep it relevant to the topic and spark some debate in the process.

Ah I see, yes that makes sense. As for Celestia I don't find her incompetent because she ruled Equestria for 1000 years in peace without the help of Luna or anyone else which for a royal is a good record. To me it seems like the times when she might be considered incompetent are her purposefully stepping back so Twilight can learn from the situation, the way my own teachers do. How else is she going to groom Twilight to be a princess if she doesn't give Twilight the challenges that come with it? She also seems to be able to see things in the form of visions so maybe she knows things will turn out okay in the end ahead of time? i.e She's not just being silent. In fact the only episode where I felt she was making stupid decisions was "Twilight's Kingdom" Some of Celestia's "flaws" are just story logistics to keep Twilight and her friends in the spotlight. If Celestia did everything Twilight and her friends wouldn't go on epic adventures. I hate when writers do that sort of thing but I also understand why they do it. 

Edited January 17, 2015 by StitchandMLPlover

[HereComesTom 2,262]

Sorry if I'm going too far off-topic saying this, but in one of the comics, Celestia couldn't help Twilight with a changeling problem because the "Secretariat Comet", whose passing was empowering just about every magical creature in Equestria.  Celestia needed to defend other parts of Equestria from other monsters, and defend she did.

 

Given that she was off doing that, I figure she's actually doing a lot of duties for Equestria off-camera, and if we got to see those things, there'd be more evidence she was a competent ruler.  And I figure that the government and military of Equestria are actually competent 99% of the time, but it's that remaining 1% that we see on the show, because it wouldn't be an interesting story otherwise.

 

I won't argue Celestia is infallible.  Not that anyone really is arguing that.  I think that, if she were aware of this debate, she'd probably tell us that she is keenly aware of her own mistakes and the disastrous consequences behind some of them, and that's one of her reasons for wanting Twilight to be a princess---so that, if Celestia needs help, the help is there.  And she'd add that she would help (and in the past has helped) Twilight with her own shortcomings, as well.  ...I can hear her speech in my head right now, ending with "That's just one of the many benefits of Friendship!"

[Cleverclover 1,526]

 

 

Some of Celestia's "flaws" are just story logistics to keep Twilight and her friends in the spotlight. If Celestia did everything Twilight and her friends wouldn't go on epic adventures. I hate when writers do that sort of thing but I also understand why they do it.

 

Celestia doesn't have to do everything. But I think she does need to at least make herself somewhat useful and stop getting helplessly captured and reduced to uselessness. As it stands, only one two-parter had her doing this: The Return of Harmony. As for the rest? 

 

Friendship is Magic -- She's simply missing for unexplained reasons. 

 

A Canterlot Wedding -- Makes one attempt at stopping Chrysalis herself, fails, and gets captured. 

 

The Crystal Empire -- Sits back and lets Twilight deal with it herself, not only offering not a single shred of support, but also making the task that much more difficult by failing to establish how much help she was allowed to accept from her friends

 

Princess Twilight Sparkle -- Helplessly captured by plants. 

 

Twilight's Kingdom -- Makes decisions which only accomplish getting every pony in Equestria drained of their magic, then gets helplessly sent off to Tartarus. 

 

I question whatever happened to the Celestia from Lesson Zero who came down from Canterlot and cleaned up Twilight's mess like a boss? Now it's like the tables have done a complete 180, as Twilight's Kingdom actually had Twilight being the one to clean up Celestia's messes. Not only has Twilight's ascension made Celestia worthless to the show, it's also made her worthless as a mentor, and as a leader. 

 

Also, Twilight clearly doesn't need any more "grooming." She's now more suited for Celestia's position than Celestia is herself.  

[WindyParadise 59]

At least Luna is still useful right? 

[Orablanco Account 3,707]

Y'know, considering Celestia's been a ruler for 1,000 years and in that time Equestria never became a desolate, authoritarian crater, I'm pretty sure Celestia might be a teensy bit more qualified for the job than people give her credit for.

 

I mean, at least she didn't throw a hissy fit that nearly plunged the kingdom in eternal darkness.

 

Edited January 18, 2015 by CITRUS KING46

[Dulset Tarn 441]

You know, I'm curious. What exactly could Celestia have done during Nightmare Moon's return?

[Metemponychosis 1,258]

You know, I'm curious. What exactly could Celestia have done during Nightmare Moon's return?

I'm guessing that if she tried getting involved things would have gone wrong because Twilight be paying more attention to her than to her new friends and the whole 'spark' to summon the Elements wouldn't have worked.

.........

Of course, I wouldn't mind another version where Celestia and the Royal Guard are involved in an epic war to keep Nightmare Moon and her monsters at bay while Twilight and the others bonded together and became comrades in an search for the Elements only to find that they were within them all the time. Waiting to be awakened. 

[Countess Noodle 607]

 

 

Of course, I wouldn't mind another version where Celestia and the Royal Guard are involved in an epic war to keep Nightmare Moon and her monsters at bay while Twilight and the others bonded together and became comrades in an search for the Elements only to find that they were within them all the time. Waiting to be awakened.

 

 

I could see that happening in a japanese remake. In fact I look forward to it.

[Ashen Pathfinder 16,161]

Just a friendly reminder to keep things on topic. The thread has been civil & all, so no one's in trouble or anything. This is an interesting discussion, but if we want to discuss comics, make sure it relates to the discussion. Otherwise we have the appropriate sub-forum for that.

 

Thanks.

[Cleverclover 1,526]

 

 

Y'know, considering Celestia's been a ruler for 1,000 years and in that time Equestria never became a desolate, authoritarian crater, I'm pretty sure Celestia might be a teensy bit more qualified for the job than people give her credit for.

 

I'm not denying that Celestia has done a lot of good for Equestria as its ruler, but as of late, her negative qualities are beginning to outweigh her positive ones. Equestria would have easily been conquered many times over by now were it not for the mane six, and in some cases, her actions have contributed to helping the villains win. And that's the big issue for me. 

 

With that said, I could easily change my opinion on her if we got a few episodes in the future that actually focus on her making amends for her poor leadership, but this extremely unlikely not only due to her now non-existent role in the show, but also because the main point of knocking Celestia down so low in the first place is so that Twilight can look better, and they most likely aren't going to go backwards on that by building her up again. 

[StitchandMLPlover 930]

Celestia doesn't have to do everything. But I think she does need to at least make herself somewhat useful and stop getting helplessly captured and reduced to uselessness. As it stands, only one two-parter had her doing this: The Return of Harmony. As for the rest? 

 

Friendship is Magic -- She's simply missing for unexplained reasons. 

 

A Canterlot Wedding -- Makes one attempt at stopping Chrysalis herself, fails, and gets captured. 

 

The Crystal Empire -- Sits back and lets Twilight deal with it herself, not only offering not a single shred of support, but also making the task that much more difficult by failing to establish how much help she was allowed to accept from her friends

 

Princess Twilight Sparkle -- Helplessly captured by plants. 

 

Twilight's Kingdom -- Makes decisions which only accomplish getting every pony in Equestria drained of their magic, then gets helplessly sent off to Tartarus. 

 

I question whatever happened to the Celestia from Lesson Zero who came down from Canterlot and cleaned up Twilight's mess like a boss? Now it's like the tables have done a complete 180, as Twilight's Kingdom actually had Twilight being the one to clean up Celestia's messes. Not only has Twilight's ascension made Celestia worthless to the show, it's also made her worthless as a mentor, and as a leader. 

 

Also, Twilight clearly doesn't need any more "grooming." She's now more suited for Celestia's position than Celestia is herself.  

Well Crystal Empire was purely grooming so to me that doesn't count as Celestia being useless or lazy, in "Princess Twilight Sparkle" I have a feeling those plants were designed specifically by Discord to capture Celestia and Luna so you could theorize Luna is just as weak by that logic. In "Friendship is Magic" Nightmare Moon obviously did something to trap Celestia. "Twilight's Kingdom" is the episode I have the most problems with in terms of Celestia's reasoning but Luna and Cadence just stood there agreeing with Celestia the whole time(except for the scene where Celestia suggests sending Discord to capture Tirek) so part of the blame technically falls on Luna and Cadence. If Cadence and Luna thought Celestia's plan wasn't the best thing they would have or should have spoken up. I honestly think they made Celestia quote on quote "weak" was because people complained that Celestia and Luna were too "God-like all powerful". 

Edited January 19, 2015 by StitchandMLPlover

[Shadow Beam 1,179]

This became a battle ground quicker than I expected

[GreyScholar 1,584]

I was I felt meant to be implied in the season 1 pilot, and stated by staff I think, that Celestia had been banished into the sun with her reappearing as the sun rises.

Edited January 19, 2015 by EquestrianScholar

[Roughshod 719]

If the progression of the show has shown me anything regarding Celestia's portrayal it is that she has become increasingly worse at handling her job's responsibilities.

 

This is of course assuming that the responsibilities of a princess are not to simply sit around, eat cake and let younger, less experienced ponies do your heavy lifting for you.  -_-

[Dulset Tarn 441]

If the progression of the show has shown me anything regarding Celestia's portrayal it is that she has become increasingly worse at handling her job's responsibilities.

 

This is of course assuming that the responsibilities of a princess are not to simply sit around, eat cake and let younger, less experienced ponies do your heavy lifting for you.  -_-

Yeah, Faust said that a princess's job is explicitly to rule over some area of ponies. Something tells me McCarthy didn't exactly get the message.

[gummyislife 24]

Honestly, Celestia never bothered me too bad. I think the reason anyone may have a bad vibe about her is, because, well, she IS Celestia. And the above comment does make a good point. She can seem useless at lots of times, but in the end, she's a pretty decent character.